I thought the Cayenne received nothing but praises...
No?
Personally I don't like the idea of Porsche building SUVs (or a 4-door car, I know it's a coupe but whatever, it has 4 doors). However I do think Cayenne is one of the best luxury SUVs on the market. The X5 will be my choice if I am in the market for one but I sure won't hesitate to recommend the Cayenne to my friends and relatives.
Well... if the S600 went against the LS460L, we'd here crying foul because Mercedes used a model that was HIGHER in the model lineup and would have therefore been an unfair advantage to the Mercedes.
In this case, you are suggesting that the use of the HIGHER model is a disadvantage? How bizarre is that? It would seem that Lexus was given an unfair opportunity to kick butt, yet the highest Lexus flagship failed the comparison and wound up in last place!
Same is true for the second comparo. Lexus gets the advantage of using the top flagship model, yet loses again.
How much performance would one get out of these two compare to the 750i and S550. I don't have the stats with me but I remember someone have posted those before and the result is not so much.
The only reason to go for the super uber Benz and Bimmer is all for the prestige factor. They buy those simply because they WANT those not because it can do X, Y and Z better than the lesser model.
As for the S600 vs. LS600hL and 760i. Yes, the LS has a lesser useable trunk space but I think that disadvantage could be offset by the superior FE (again, to the S600 and 760i, no one is comparing to the LS460 here). Not to mention the value factor for a loaded LS600hL compare to its counterparts. Again, let's stick to apples to apples here.
Of course in this case Lexus by having a higher end up is a disadvantage.
I just want to make sure, that comparo had S550 and LS600hL right? You said yourself, the LS600hL is not much faster, more expensive and has a smaller trunk than the LS460. Given that, why would they pit it against the S550, LS600hL's natural competitors are 760i and S600. End of discussion.
If they can't setup an apple to apple comparison then might as well not do one.
Looks like more sour grapes from those who can't afford to step up to an LS600LH.
Honestly Tagman, where do you dig up these obscure comparisons. It would not have mattered if this European rag had compared the LS to a donkey cart, the donkey cart would have won hands down (as long as it wasn't Japanese). The donkey cart, just like Audi, would have won the following categories:
You have to remember that the LS600hl is a specialty car that will only sell about 2000 units a year. I don't think anyone on this forum would consider buying one. I know I wouldn't.
It may eventually evolve into something special but not so much now. Al Gore might buy one as it was meant for folks like him.
Now, if only that Audi turbo diesel was available here, you might have a convert!!
Honestly Tagman, where do you dig up these obscure comparisons.
Motor Trend, December's Christmas Issue of 2007 is where I "dug up an obscure" comparison. If that isn't mainstream enough than what is?
The second comp is a well-visited internet site, because we don't generally subsribe to the European publications in the States.
But, I guess I should agree with you that a donkey cart is better than a Lexus LS! :P :shades: (just kidding, of course... so, please don't go postal!)
Please tell me what you thought of that engine!!!????
I've said it before...
Craptacular turbo lag.
Actually, I'll be honest here, since I have only 2 experiences with turbo-charged cars (that being the 335i and A4) it might not be fair for me to judge the A4. I am pretty sure being the world's top 10 engine its turbo lag should be very minimal while comparing to the older turbo-charged engines.
However, it is pretty much a no contest against the BMW 3.0TT and nevertheless the butter smooth NA engines like the Infiniti VQ and Lexus 2GR-FSE.
Again, like I have said all the time, give a 2 comparable engines, it's NA all the way for me.
Well... the reason I asked for specifics was that my '08 model GTI has the 2.0L FSI Turbocharged engine, and with the DSG it is an amazing combination to me. Of course it is nothing like my NA Porsche engine in the Carrera S, but I can't dismiss its prowess... especially married to the DSG which shifts with dual clutches at 2/10ths of a second. Utilizing the DSG, I do not notice any lag.
IMO, 2/10ths of a second is darned quick shifting, and when the engine keeps up, it is a potent combination... especially for such a small engine, and it seems so much of a surprise in what is essentially an otherwise non-inspiring car.
On the quick shifting, Edmunds stated that the IS-F's manumatic has faster shifting in manual mode than the F1 tranny Ferrari puts on its F430.
The F430's latest autoclutch gearbox, known now as "SuperFast 2" shifts at 150 milliseconds.
FWIW, the latest 599 GTB does it in 100 milliseconds, and the Scuderia in 60 milliseconds!!
The IS-F claims 100 millisecond shift times!!... that's very good.
In fact the DSG is capable of 8 millisecond shifting, and that's not a typo... but in practical usage that number rises. I am aware that DSG is as fast or even faster than ANY of the other systems, but VW is very conservative to round up the shift speed to 200 milliseconds in the GTI, given the engine it is mated to.
I spent a bit of time today test-driving the following: S550 4matic, 750Li, A8L, XJ Vanden Plas, LS460L (touring version). I didn't spend as much time as I should have, as I was with my 10-year old son, and he had some other things to do.
But my inital thoughts are that I liked the S and the LS the best.
S - I liked for its interior and for the prestige factor. Exterior styling a plus. Over-engined for my needs, not sure but it might be the only one in the group subject to a guzzler tax. The ride/handling felt the "heaviest" of the bunch. I didn't like that aspect, though overall ride/handling is fine for the group. AWD a big plus for me.
750 - I actually like the exterior styling. The interior I liked least of the bunch. Plastics very low grade. Wood looked the most plastic-like of the bunch, even though I know it is real. The tranny hiccupped at one point when I got aggressive, kind of a disappointment. The seat depth adjustment is awful; an actual gap opens up toward the front if you want a deeper seat. LCD didn't seem bright enough.
A8 - I think the exterior styling isn't sufficiently differentiated from other Audi sedans. And I actually didn't care for the interior too much, either, despite all the awards. I didn't like the fabric headliner. Nor the wood; it too was finished in a way that made it look somewhat plasticky (like the XJ, but not as bad as the 750). Relative lack of prestige is a minus for me. Liked the way the rear-backup camera worked (showing lines as the wheel is turned).
XJ - Initially felt slighly claustrophbic up front. When driving, the right side of my right heel was up against the central column; I think it too tight down there. Wood was middle of the road to me, like the A8. Some like the "classic" exterior styling, but for me personally, it is still "dated" styling.
LS - I liked the sort of "hushed" sense of quiet. And the interior was number 2 for my personal tastes. There is plastic but in the version I drove (cashmere leather) the upper dash is of a color that blends in very nicely with the plastic of the center stack. And the quality of the plastic used is about 10 times better than that in the 750. There was one point where I thought I detected tranny lag, but I would need a lengthier test drive to be sure.
In the ride/handling department, I guess I'm not a connoisseur of these things, and also didn't spend sufficient time, but I found all of the cars acceptable. I was a little surprised that all 5 had steering that felt a bit light to me, at least a times.
I am going to wait until Dec. and see what deals are available on each, then go into the dealerships (without any family) for more quality time. I suspect the 7 and XJ will offer the best value and so they are still in the running as of now for that reason. I think only the Audi is probably out of the running for me at this point.
While the hardware again has its foundation in the transmission of the LS sedan, lightweight yet robust internals plus a complete rewiring of the transmission's brain have produced an entirely new definition of an automatic transmission. In manual mode, it comes as close to instant shifting as anything we've driven.
When manual mode (shifted via steering-column paddles or the console-mounted gearlever) is selected, upshift times drop from a Lexus IS 350's typical 1.3 seconds (0.7 second to initiate plus 0.6 second to change ratios) to a mere 0.3 second (0.2 second to initiate plus 0.1 second to shift). We also appreciate the perfectly timed tone that reminds you to shift just before you hit the rev limiter in each gear.
The gloriously quick downshifts (with matched revs) sound as if the car has a true sequential gearbox. It's unbelievable. The only other transmission that comes close to such quick, driver-friendly action is the dual-clutch DSG gearbox like the one in an Audi A3, or perhaps the latest $9,000, Formula 1-style automated sequential manual like that in the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano.
After reading some reviews of the IS-F I think the chance of you winning is getting bigger and bigger. Although I am not conceding yet but I am making up rough drafts in my head for the "Hail to the MB" piece.
After reading some reviews of the IS-F I think the chance of you winning is getting bigger and bigger. Although I am not conceding yet but I am making up rough drafts in my head for the "Hail to the MB" piece.
LOL... something to look forward to! And please.... no skimping.
But I'm sick of making excuses for their lack of American sales. It doesn't phase me as long as I can still have one (they don't pull out of the market--they won't), and as long as they still sell well everywhere else. In China, for example, the A6 is the best-selling luxury car (making Audi the top luxury brand). Audi is also the top luxury brand in the UK, and are only slightly behind Mercedes-Benz in Europe as a whole (ahead of BMW).
Granted, I don't think sales make any car better than another. But these are just reasons why Audi's US sales--or relative lack thereof--will not pose a significant obstacle in their premium international takeover.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
No, but that is the reason you don't want to discuss sales..... Audi's poor showing in the tough, intelligent U.S. market. Gotta be a reason for that somewhere.
You are burying your head in the sand if you choose to ignore sales success. It is like ignoring the final score of a football game and then proclaiming that the losing team is actually better!!
Thank you for describing the main characteristic of the LS460.
Go fast in comfort.
Man, Lexus should hire you as their slogan designer.
I highly doubt esf meant go fast only in a straight line... I'll go out on a limb here and make the safe bet that he meant fast performance and fast dynamics. But, let's wait for him to speak for himself and clarify. IMO, you have cleverly used his own words against him, instead of interpretting them for their genuine meaning... you sly fox!
No, but that is the reason you don't want to discuss sales..... Audi's poor showing in the tough, intelligent U.S. market. Gotta be a reason for that somewhere.
You are burying your head in the sand if you choose to ignore sales success. It is like ignoring the final score of a football game and then proclaiming that the losing team is actually better!!
Who's the one burying their head? Why not look at global sales, instead of cherry picking the one market that proves your point? :confuse:
I just saw some numbers for Audi in global sales. They are looking good in most places even in the US (up 10%+ this year I think). With the new A4 and A5 joining the lineup there is little doubt in my mind that they will do well for the following years to come. Although I personally don't like Audi's styling and its no-RWD philosophy but I do consider them a very successful luxury auto maker. Gotta give credit when credit is due.
With that in mind, let's look at Lexus. When was the first year that Lexus began selling cars in Europe, Japan, Russia and China and do the sales numbers go up or down in those market? Lexus entered US the earliest and is currently the luxury sales leader. Lexus entered Taiwan in the 90s and is currently the luxury sales leader over there as well. Like I said, give credit when credit is due because due to different circumstances, simply by applying the global sales number could be very misleading.
Why not look at global sales, instead of cherry picking the one market that proves your point?
Here are two pretty good reasons:
One, I happen to live in the U.S. so that is where my interests lie.
Two, I was under the impression we were discussing luxury cars and sales on this forum, hence the name. Many brands that we recognize as luxury brands are not thought of as luxury brands in other parts of the world and many of the autos sold there by Audi and Mercedes would not qualify as luxury cars in the U.S.
If you want to talk worldwide then you would have to include Toyota as that is the nameplate that competes with Audi, Mercedes, etc. in other parts of the world.
Ask yourself which is more luxurious, an Audi 4 or a Toyota Avalon or whatever it is called in other parts of the world.
Just trying to be realistic here. Fair and balanced.
No, but that is the reason you don't want to discuss sales..... Audi's poor showing in the tough, intelligent U.S. market. Gotta be a reason for that somewhere.
The A6 isn't just better than the GS, its better than the bland, ancient E-class, but that along with the 5 series still dominates the segment in the US. Tough market yes. Intelligent market? Noooo....
Lincoln apparently has finally realized that their "its 1974 all over again!" interiors were dreadful, so for the MKS they've apparently decided to simply cut and paste the interior from the Acura RDX. Not a big improvement.
LG, do you realize that you are part of the U.S. market that you apparently think is not very intelligent? Or do you consider yourself the exception to your own rule and it is just the rest of us that are not too bright?
You hammer the RL for not having a rear wheel drive only variation but think Audi is just fine without one. What's up with that?
Since CR took the AWD GS off their recommended list you have bashed the entire GS lineup even though the GS hybrid is rated tops by CR and they have nothing but praise for the FWD GS. What's going on here?
However, it is pretty much a no contest against the BMW 3.0TT and nevertheless the butter smooth NA engines like the Infiniti VQ and Lexus 2GR-FSE.
Again, like I have said all the time, give a 2 comparable engines, it's NA all the way for me.
You are right on the money, especially the Lexus engine in the IS350. By the way, I have the car for about two weeks now. I keep liking it more and more as the days go by. IMO, it's just a complete package for daily urban driving, and the smooth powerful engine is the icing on the cake. No buyer remorse this time.
I agree that the original LIncoln interior was a bad joke that someone forgot to tell the Production line was just that: a joke! Or did Lincoln purchase the remaining Chrysler K car interiors and finally decided to use them...! But I disagree, the above new Lincoln interior is a big improvement (in style at least. Can't review material quality from the pix). Cleaner, simpler than the RDX, a bit Volvo-ish.
And, of course, I totally disagree with your assessment of the TL interior. For a $30k car (what I actually paid in '05), fine materials, lovely design. Functional with a bit of fun/style (the IP lighting). Real aluminum. Inoffensive faux carbon fiber (but, to me, the faux wood is an offense!), leather surfaces have not aged badly at all in my TL. I do agree with the poster that noted the easily indented surfaces on the door panesl, though. I've got a perma-indent from where I rest my elbow. Significantly better than the '05 G35 that was, for me, it's main competition.
Of course, my opinion is as correct as yours...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I really don't see any "cut and paste" except the the two metallic-looking trim line at the center console.
The RDX interior looks youthful and sporty but the MKX's looks like a...revised Lincoln Town Car. Imaging that interior with the shifter at the steering column and couple of woodtrims then you'll know what I mean. Ford really need to catch up to GM in term of interior design and styling.
I am glad to hear that. For me the only complaint I have about the car is the cramped rear seat. Good thing for me is that 99% of the time, the rear seat is unoccupied so that's not really a problem for me. Other than that this car is just about as perfect as it can be.
Have you drive it with the "ECT Power" mode on yet? I loved it when I drive it with that on but with the gas price keeps going up I am trying really hard to control myself not giving in to that urge.
Anyway, it's just good to know that there is also a fellow IS350 owner here who enjoys the car as much as me if not more.
Good thing for me is that 99% of the time, the rear seat is unoccupied
Same here. It was a bit of a struggle test fitting the baby carseat, but it worked out better than I expected. It turned out that at shoulder level, where the carseat taking up the most room, the IS has the same or more space than my GS. :surprise:
Have you drive it with the "ECT Power" mode on yet
No. Still taking it easy during the break-in period. However, even in the normal mode, this car is lively enough for my driving environment. An additional bonus for me is my winter tires/wheels for the GS WILL fit this car as well.
OK, but when the eurofans finally get out of bed and read my post I am gonna need some help! If we will stick together like they do we can enjoy some balance here. I don't mean for any of us to be obnoxious, just fair and balanced. We really need for Brightness and Jcoby to come back.
Congrats on the new IS350. Awesome!! Just about the perfect car.
If not for this I would've been gone long time ago.
It's really depressed to get the "hail to the Germans, and down with Lexus" bombardment all the time. But being a long time Japanese owner and current Lexus owner I think it's my responsibility to point out wrong information and being the "fair and balanced" factor here. As long as we don't get discouraged I truly believe this board will be a much better place to visit with different voices.
Don't hold your breath on this one. My winter wheels are dressed up steel rims I believe. Nothing to look at, just there to take on the abuse by road salt, ice and snow. I am just happy that I forgot to trade them in with the GS, and then I found out that they will fit the new car...
This whole "FOX news" "Fair and Balanced" thing is getting to the point of trademark infringement.
IMO, this forum is generally a fair forum, and the views are balanced not necessarily by any individual, but by the collective views of many. If one poster is a diehard Eurocar fan and another is a die hard Japanese car fan, then there is balance between the two of them... like two weights that create balance on the opposite side of a beam scale.
Individuals can sometimes be fair and balanced themselves, but I believe that scenario is less common, because everyone has their own preferences, and there is nothing "wrong" with preferences and/or opinions, as we have discussed.
If everyone agrees on a particular area of discussion, then it could be argued that such a condition is NOT balanced, and that we are all collectively on one end of the scale.
Concensus is typically a perspective of balance, and I often look to it as such.
From a personal standpoint, I have been literally accused of being a German-car [non-permissible content removed], yet I have often been credited with being a very fair and open-minded poster.
Truth is that I own a Japanese Acura, recently owned a Toyota FJ Cruiser, and currently own a Porsche, VW, and Jaguar along with the Acura. I've owned many American domestic models in the past, as well as other Japanese cars, such as a Honda Prelude, at one time, and a couple of Datsun "Z" cars, before they became known as the parent company, Nisaan. I've owned a Ferrari, from Italy, of course.
That ownership experience itself shows that I have been open to buying cars from Japan, Great Britain, America, Germany, and Italy. I would cladly consider others as well, if I liked the product. It's no secret that I just love many of the cars from Germany, but I have also posted numerous times that I think Honda is a fantastic company, and again, I currently own and have previously owned numerous Japanese cars.
So, "Fair and Balanced" seems ambiguous.
As I've always said... try to give credit where credit is due, and realize that it's OK for people to have their individual "preferences" and opinions... they are not right or wrong, nor necessarily "fair and/or balanced", but they should always be respected, IMO, without personal insults.
LG, do you realize that you are part of the U.S. market that you apparently think is not very intelligent? Or do you consider yourself the exception to your own rule and it is just the rest of us that are not too bright?
While I don't necessarily always agree with all of the posters on this forum, everyone is generally very intelligent and knowledgeable about cars. I would not say that for the general American public, however. Ask an average person who owns Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti, and I'm sure you'll get a wide range of answers. I've heard that Mercedes owns Lexus, and that Infiniti is Swedish. There are people out there who still don't know Saturn is owned by GM.
Some others may have said that the RL really needs RWD, but that isn't really my problem with the car. My problem with the RL is sleep-inducing looks, the bad packaging, and the bland driving experience. The S80 has no RWD version, and neither does the A6, and I like both of them. The S80 V8 AWD is a lot faster, better looking, and more comfortable than the RL, and the A6 4.2 S-line is far better to drive.
Since CR took the AWD GS off their recommended list you have bashed the entire GS lineup even though the GS hybrid is rated tops by CR and they have nothing but praise for the FWD GS.
It's only the AWD Tundra that has been a reliability disaster for Toyota, but that hasn't stopped people from slamming it. The GS hybrid's reliability is irrelevant, as those are specially made. I assume you mean "RWD" GS, which I'm sorry, but its record is bad too. The RWD GS430's ratings for '06 are terrible, and the RWD GS300/350 is still far worse than the M35, just not as bad as the V8 or AWD versions. The fact is, that the entire GS line has been the worst new model introduction from a reliability standpoint in Lexus' history, and you're less likely to have problems with an Audi A6.
Comments
No?
Personally I don't like the idea of Porsche building SUVs (or a 4-door car, I know it's a coupe but whatever, it has 4 doors). However I do think Cayenne is one of the best luxury SUVs on the market. The X5 will be my choice if I am in the market for one but I sure won't hesitate to recommend the Cayenne to my friends and relatives.
In this case, you are suggesting that the use of the HIGHER model is a disadvantage? How bizarre is that? It would seem that Lexus was given an unfair opportunity to kick butt, yet the highest Lexus flagship failed the comparison and wound up in last place!
Same is true for the second comparo. Lexus gets the advantage of using the top flagship model, yet loses again.
TagMan
TM
How much performance would one get out of these two compare to the 750i and S550. I don't have the stats with me but I remember someone have posted those before and the result is not so much.
The only reason to go for the super uber Benz and Bimmer is all for the prestige factor. They buy those simply because they WANT those not because it can do X, Y and Z better than the lesser model.
As for the S600 vs. LS600hL and 760i. Yes, the LS has a lesser useable trunk space but I think that disadvantage could be offset by the superior FE (again, to the S600 and 760i, no one is comparing to the LS460 here). Not to mention the value factor for a loaded LS600hL compare to its counterparts. Again, let's stick to apples to apples here.
I just want to make sure, that comparo had S550 and LS600hL right? You said yourself, the LS600hL is not much faster, more expensive and has a smaller trunk than the LS460. Given that, why would they pit it against the S550, LS600hL's natural competitors are 760i and S600. End of discussion.
If they can't setup an apple to apple comparison then might as well not do one.
Honestly Tagman, where do you dig up these obscure comparisons. It would not have mattered if this European rag had compared the LS to a donkey cart, the donkey cart would have won hands down (as long as it wasn't Japanese). The donkey cart, just like Audi, would have won the following categories:
1. Cheaper price
2. Lighter weight
3. Bigger boot capacity
4. More economical
5. Lower maintenance costs
6. Etc, etc, etc......
So, even though the donkey cart beats the LS, which one would you take if it was free?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
:sick:
Honestly, if they have to use the trunk space to knock on the LS600hL everytime then I consider that a great achievement from Lexus.
It may eventually evolve into something special but not so much now. Al Gore might buy one as it was meant for folks like him.
Now, if only that Audi turbo diesel was available here, you might have a convert!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I was actually opening up to this turbo idea after test driving the 335i but after spent 2 weeks with an A4 2.0T I am back to square one now...
Motor Trend, December's Christmas Issue of 2007 is where I "dug up an obscure" comparison. If that isn't mainstream enough than what is?
The second comp is a well-visited internet site, because we don't generally subsribe to the European publications in the States.
But, I guess I should agree with you that a donkey cart is better than a Lexus LS! :P :shades:
(just kidding, of course... so, please don't go postal!)
TagMan
Please tell me what you thought of that engine!!!????
TM
I've said it before...
Craptacular turbo lag.
Actually, I'll be honest here, since I have only 2 experiences with turbo-charged cars (that being the 335i and A4) it might not be fair for me to judge the A4. I am pretty sure being the world's top 10 engine its turbo lag should be very minimal while comparing to the older turbo-charged engines.
However, it is pretty much a no contest against the BMW 3.0TT and nevertheless the butter smooth NA engines like the Infiniti VQ and Lexus 2GR-FSE.
Again, like I have said all the time, give a 2 comparable engines, it's NA all the way for me.
IMO, 2/10ths of a second is darned quick shifting, and when the engine keeps up, it is a potent combination... especially for such a small engine, and it seems so much of a surprise in what is essentially an otherwise non-inspiring car.
TagMan
I would love to try the 2.0T with DSG but I can only speak from my experience.
On the quick shifting, Edmunds stated that the IS-F's manumatic has faster shifting in manual mode than the F1 tranny Ferrari puts on its F430.
Now, that's amazing. :surprise:
The F430's latest autoclutch gearbox, known now as "SuperFast 2" shifts at 150 milliseconds.
FWIW, the latest 599 GTB does it in 100 milliseconds, and the Scuderia in 60 milliseconds!!
The IS-F claims 100 millisecond shift times!!... that's very good.
In fact the DSG is capable of 8 millisecond shifting, and that's not a typo... but in practical usage that number rises. I am aware that DSG is as fast or even faster than ANY of the other systems, but VW is very conservative to round up the shift speed to 200 milliseconds in the GTI, given the engine it is mated to.
The IS-F should prove to be a good shifter, IMO.
TagMan
But my inital thoughts are that I liked the S and the LS the best.
S - I liked for its interior and for the prestige factor. Exterior styling a plus. Over-engined for my needs, not sure but it might be the only one in the group subject to a guzzler tax. The ride/handling felt the "heaviest" of the bunch. I didn't like that aspect, though overall ride/handling is fine for the group. AWD a big plus for me.
750 - I actually like the exterior styling. The interior I liked least of the bunch. Plastics very low grade. Wood looked the most plastic-like of the bunch, even though I know it is real. The tranny hiccupped at one point when I got aggressive, kind of a disappointment. The seat depth adjustment is awful; an actual gap opens up toward the front if you want a deeper seat. LCD didn't seem bright enough.
A8 - I think the exterior styling isn't sufficiently differentiated from other Audi sedans. And I actually didn't care for the interior too much, either, despite all the awards. I didn't like the fabric headliner. Nor the wood; it too was finished in a way that made it look somewhat plasticky (like the XJ, but not as bad as the 750). Relative lack of prestige is a minus for me. Liked the way the rear-backup camera worked (showing lines as the wheel is turned).
XJ - Initially felt slighly claustrophbic up front. When driving, the right side of my right heel was up against the central column; I think it too tight down there. Wood was middle of the road to me, like the A8. Some like the "classic" exterior styling, but for me personally, it is still "dated" styling.
LS - I liked the sort of "hushed" sense of quiet. And the interior was number 2 for my personal tastes. There is plastic but in the version I drove (cashmere leather) the upper dash is of a color that blends in very nicely with the plastic of the center stack. And the quality of the plastic used is about 10 times better than that in the 750. There was one point where I thought I detected tranny lag, but I would need a lengthier test drive to be sure.
In the ride/handling department, I guess I'm not a connoisseur of these things, and also didn't spend sufficient time, but I found all of the cars acceptable. I was a little surprised that all 5 had steering that felt a bit light to me, at least a times.
I am going to wait until Dec. and see what deals are available on each, then go into the dealerships (without any family) for more quality time. I suspect the 7 and XJ will offer the best value and so they are still in the running as of now for that reason. I think only the Audi is probably out of the running for me at this point.
While the hardware again has its foundation in the transmission of the LS sedan, lightweight yet robust internals plus a complete rewiring of the transmission's brain have produced an entirely new definition of an automatic transmission. In manual mode, it comes as close to instant shifting as anything we've driven.
When manual mode (shifted via steering-column paddles or the console-mounted gearlever) is selected, upshift times drop from a Lexus IS 350's typical 1.3 seconds (0.7 second to initiate plus 0.6 second to change ratios) to a mere 0.3 second (0.2 second to initiate plus 0.1 second to shift). We also appreciate the perfectly timed tone that reminds you to shift just before you hit the rev limiter in each gear.
The gloriously quick downshifts (with matched revs) sound as if the car has a true sequential gearbox. It's unbelievable. The only other transmission that comes close to such quick, driver-friendly action is the dual-clutch DSG gearbox like the one in an Audi A3, or perhaps the latest $9,000, Formula 1-style automated sequential manual like that in the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano.
Source: Full Test: 2008 Lexus IS-F
Yes... the IS-F is to be rated at 100 milliseconds shift time... impressive indeed!
TagMan
After reading some reviews of the IS-F I think the chance of you winning is getting bigger and bigger. Although I am not conceding yet but I am making up rough drafts in my head for the "Hail to the MB" piece.
:P
After reading some reviews of the IS-F I think the chance of you winning is getting bigger and bigger. Although I am not conceding yet but I am making up rough drafts in my head for the "Hail to the MB" piece.
LOL... something to look forward to! And please.... no skimping.
TM
Performance, believe it or not, is an integral part of the luxury experience. Luxury cars are cars that go fast... in comfort.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
But I'm sick of making excuses for their lack of American sales. It doesn't phase me as long as I can still have one (they don't pull out of the market--they won't), and as long as they still sell well everywhere else. In China, for example, the A6 is the best-selling luxury car (making Audi the top luxury brand). Audi is also the top luxury brand in the UK, and are only slightly behind Mercedes-Benz in Europe as a whole (ahead of BMW).
Granted, I don't think sales make any car better than another. But these are just reasons why Audi's US sales--or relative lack thereof--will not pose a significant obstacle in their premium international takeover.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
You are burying your head in the sand if you choose to ignore sales success. It is like ignoring the final score of a football game and then proclaiming that the losing team is actually better!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Thank you for describing the main characteristic of the LS460.
Go fast in comfort.
Man, Lexus should hire you as their slogan designer.
Go fast in comfort.
Man, Lexus should hire you as their slogan designer.
I highly doubt esf meant go fast only in a straight line... I'll go out on a limb here and make the safe bet that he meant fast performance and fast dynamics. But, let's wait for him to speak for himself and clarify. IMO, you have cleverly used his own words against him, instead of interpretting them for their genuine meaning... you sly fox!
TagMan
You are burying your head in the sand if you choose to ignore sales success. It is like ignoring the final score of a football game and then proclaiming that the losing team is actually better!!
Who's the one burying their head? Why not look at global sales, instead of cherry picking the one market that proves your point? :confuse:
TagMan
Oh Tag, I guess learned well from all you elders here.
With that in mind, let's look at Lexus. When was the first year that Lexus began selling cars in Europe, Japan, Russia and China and do the sales numbers go up or down in those market? Lexus entered US the earliest and is currently the luxury sales leader. Lexus entered Taiwan in the 90s and is currently the luxury sales leader over there as well. Like I said, give credit when credit is due because due to different circumstances, simply by applying the global sales number could be very misleading.
Here are two pretty good reasons:
One, I happen to live in the U.S. so that is where my interests lie.
Two, I was under the impression we were discussing luxury cars and sales on this forum, hence the name. Many brands that we recognize as luxury brands are not thought of as luxury brands in other parts of the world and many of the autos sold there by Audi and Mercedes would not qualify as luxury cars in the U.S.
If you want to talk worldwide then you would have to include Toyota as that is the nameplate that competes with Audi, Mercedes, etc. in other parts of the world.
Ask yourself which is more luxurious, an Audi 4 or a Toyota Avalon or whatever it is called in other parts of the world.
Just trying to be realistic here. Fair and balanced.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
TagMan
Well then, keep trying... maybe you'll get there one day! ... "practice makes perfect".
TagMan
The A6 isn't just better than the GS, its better than the bland, ancient E-class, but that along with the 5 series still dominates the segment in the US. Tough market yes. Intelligent market? Noooo....
You hammer the RL for not having a rear wheel drive only variation but think Audi is just fine without one. What's up with that?
Since CR took the AWD GS off their recommended list you have bashed the entire GS lineup even though the GS hybrid is rated tops by CR and they have nothing but praise for the FWD GS. What's going on here?
Fair and balanced.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Again, like I have said all the time, give a 2 comparable engines, it's NA all the way for me.
You are right on the money, especially the Lexus engine in the IS350.
By the way, I have the car for about two weeks now. I keep liking it more and more as the days go by. IMO, it's just a complete package for daily urban driving, and the smooth powerful engine is the icing on the cake. No buyer remorse this time.
And, of course, I totally disagree with your assessment of the TL interior. For a $30k car (what I actually paid in '05), fine materials, lovely design. Functional with a bit of fun/style (the IP lighting). Real aluminum. Inoffensive faux carbon fiber (but, to me, the faux wood is an offense!), leather surfaces have not aged badly at all in my TL. I do agree with the poster that noted the easily indented surfaces on the door panesl, though. I've got a perma-indent from where I rest my elbow. Significantly better than the '05 G35 that was, for me, it's main competition.
Of course, my opinion is as correct as yours...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The RDX interior looks youthful and sporty but the MKX's looks like a...revised Lincoln Town Car. Imaging that interior with the shifter at the steering column and couple of woodtrims then you'll know what I mean. Ford really need to catch up to GM in term of interior design and styling.
I am glad to hear that. For me the only complaint I have about the car is the cramped rear seat. Good thing for me is that 99% of the time, the rear seat is unoccupied so that's not really a problem for me. Other than that this car is just about as perfect as it can be.
Have you drive it with the "ECT Power" mode on yet? I loved it when I drive it with that on but with the gas price keeps going up I am trying really hard to control myself not giving in to that urge.
Anyway, it's just good to know that there is also a fellow IS350 owner here who enjoys the car as much as me if not more.
Same here. It was a bit of a struggle test fitting the baby carseat, but it worked out better than I expected. It turned out that at shoulder level, where the carseat taking up the most room, the IS has the same or more space than my GS. :surprise:
Have you drive it with the "ECT Power" mode on yet
No. Still taking it easy during the break-in period. However, even in the normal mode, this car is lively enough for my driving environment. An additional bonus for me is my winter tires/wheels for the GS WILL fit this car as well.
Hmm...you should take a picture with the IS350 with your GS's wheels.
I am pretty sure you'll be the first one to put 2nd gen GS's wheels on a 2nd gen IS. It'll be interesting looking indeed.
Congrats on the new IS350. Awesome!! Just about the perfect car.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Fair and balanced.
If not for this I would've been gone long time ago.
It's really depressed to get the "hail to the Germans, and down with Lexus" bombardment all the time. But being a long time Japanese owner and current Lexus owner I think it's my responsibility to point out wrong information and being the "fair and balanced" factor here. As long as we don't get discouraged I truly believe this board will be a much better place to visit with different voices.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
With the winter wheels, you probably have the only IS in America that wears steel rims.
IMO, this forum is generally a fair forum, and the views are balanced not necessarily by any individual, but by the collective views of many. If one poster is a diehard Eurocar fan and another is a die hard Japanese car fan, then there is balance between the two of them... like two weights that create balance on the opposite side of a beam scale.
Individuals can sometimes be fair and balanced themselves, but I believe that scenario is less common, because everyone has their own preferences, and there is nothing "wrong" with preferences and/or opinions, as we have discussed.
If everyone agrees on a particular area of discussion, then it could be argued that such a condition is NOT balanced, and that we are all collectively on one end of the scale.
Concensus is typically a perspective of balance, and I often look to it as such.
From a personal standpoint, I have been literally accused of being a German-car [non-permissible content removed], yet I have often been credited with being a very fair and open-minded poster.
Truth is that I own a Japanese Acura, recently owned a Toyota FJ Cruiser, and currently own a Porsche, VW, and Jaguar along with the Acura. I've owned many American domestic models in the past, as well as other Japanese cars, such as a Honda Prelude, at one time, and a couple of Datsun "Z" cars, before they became known as the parent company, Nisaan. I've owned a Ferrari, from Italy, of course.
That ownership experience itself shows that I have been open to buying cars from Japan, Great Britain, America, Germany, and Italy. I would cladly consider others as well, if I liked the product. It's no secret that I just love many of the cars from Germany, but I have also posted numerous times that I think Honda is a fantastic company, and again, I currently own and have previously owned numerous Japanese cars.
So, "Fair and Balanced" seems ambiguous.
As I've always said... try to give credit where credit is due, and realize that it's OK for people to have their individual "preferences" and opinions... they are not right or wrong, nor necessarily "fair and/or balanced", but they should always be respected, IMO, without personal insults.
That's how I see it.... IMHO.
TagMan
While I don't necessarily always agree with all of the posters on this forum, everyone is generally very intelligent and knowledgeable about cars. I would not say that for the general American public, however. Ask an average person who owns Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti, and I'm sure you'll get a wide range of answers. I've heard that Mercedes owns Lexus, and that Infiniti is Swedish. There are people out there who still don't know Saturn is owned by GM.
Some others may have said that the RL really needs RWD, but that isn't really my problem with the car. My problem with the RL is sleep-inducing looks, the bad packaging, and the bland driving experience. The S80 has no RWD version, and neither does the A6, and I like both of them. The S80 V8 AWD is a lot faster, better looking, and more comfortable than the RL, and the A6 4.2 S-line is far better to drive.
Since CR took the AWD GS off their recommended list you have bashed the entire GS lineup even though the GS hybrid is rated tops by CR and they have nothing but praise for the FWD GS.
It's only the AWD Tundra that has been a reliability disaster for Toyota, but that hasn't stopped people from slamming it. The GS hybrid's reliability is irrelevant, as those are specially made. I assume you mean "RWD" GS, which I'm sorry, but its record is bad too. The RWD GS430's ratings for '06 are terrible, and the RWD GS300/350 is still far worse than the M35, just not as bad as the V8 or AWD versions. The fact is, that the entire GS line has been the worst new model introduction from a reliability standpoint in Lexus' history, and you're less likely to have problems with an Audi A6.