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Comments
LS pics: An oversized center-stack loaded with LEGO plastic buttons...
Check out this explosion of plastic, especially surrounding the nav screen. It's a plastic party... full of plastic LEGO buttons...
Here's a close-up of some of the actual LEGO blocks found inside that LS interior:
How unimaginative can you get? Pleeeeze! :surprise:
TagMan
Actually, I think M-B's best interior effort is in the CL. It's absolutely stunning. That interior and the Maser GT's are probably my two favorites in the industry. I'm sure Audi will blow everyone away with the next A8. The 7 interior is a mess, overly complicated for absolutely no reason, and not particularly luxurious either.
As for the LEGO comment, just look at how the S and 7er designers "stacked" everything to the dash board. LS' dashboard looks like one piece and it flows much better than the rest (okay, maybe the A8 "flows" even better but I don't want a "Town Car inspired" one).
I know that it wasn't you made the "created by God" comment. I figured I'll just reply 2 posts in one due to my laziness.
Agree, it is stunning. The main head-on view of the dash and center console of the CL is not massively different from the S-Class, however, which is also a class-leader.
Nothing from Lexus matches this.
TagMan
EDIT: The exterior of this car is gorgeous as well... here's a shot of the '08 CL550 Coupe...
and the '08 CL600 Coupe...
Simply gorgeous.
TM
By the way, I don't think LEGO makes "buttons". They are specialize in making block pieces to form an object (apparently that's what MB engineers specialized in too...).
Also, want to show me where the buttons in the S-class that aren't plastic?
Check out the LS600hL's, on par if not better.
In fairness, tag, that's a picture of the rear center armrest control panel. It looks pretty darn good to me! Show me another car in this (or any) class that has that in the back seat. However, that ambient lighting in the S-class is just awesome! Reminds me of the NCC-1701D or some other Starfleet ship.
LOL... in your dreams. :shades:
By the way, I don't think LEGO makes "buttons". They are specialize in making block pieces to form an object
I have an 8-year old son. Needless to say, I understand LEGOs. Nothing curvey about them. Curvey is sexy, and the S-Class has a beautiful interior with the right curves. The only curve that is in the LS is the way the oversized center stack expands at the top sides and gets further oversized. The LEGO look in the LS comes from the square and rectangular buttons that are EVERYWHERE. Much too geometric... just like LEGO!
Also, want to show me where the buttons in the S-class that aren't plastic?
The COMAND knob is one of the most fluid knobs I have ever felt in a car. It feels as though it floats on bearings and is cast from a solid chunk of stainless steel. Check it out sometime.
TagMan
Yes, I know.
Show me another car in this (or any) class that has that in the back seat.
Actually, my Vanden Plas rear entertainment and communications control center in the rear seat center console looks very sophisticated... it's very nice... certainly on a par or better than the LS. I'll see if I can dig up a pic.
TagMan
Edit:
Hard to find a pic, but here's a CNET pic of a guy using the Vanden Plas' "Pass the Grey Poupon" airplane-type tray table for his laptop, in front of the built-in color monitor, and the center console has multi-media controls as well as built-in telephone controls for rear passengers, and offers stereo headphone outputs as well as inputs for auxillary, handheld or game devices to integrate into the color monitors. Not too shabby, IMO.
TM
As for the knob, I am just glad that Lexus is one of the last few manufactures that haven't been sucked into this knob/joystick type of controls. Give me a good touch screen with buttons any day of the week.
In all fairness, that knob does look high quality and well designed. Another beef about the S-class and 7-series: a good looking gated shifter like the one in all Lexus cannot be replaced by knobs or that weird thing they have been putting on the new BMWs.
Tag, I respect your opinion, but "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
As you know, I am waiting for my special ordered 2008 LS460L to arrive. The latest word is that it will be here early in December.
The differences aren't much, but for me at least, the S class is "that's very nice" and the CL is "wow!". I'm not sure what it is exactly, but there's something about the CL interior, it just gives off this sense of incredible luxury that has largely been lost in car interior design since the '30s and '40s. Even the Bentley Continental is a bit "been there", and a bit Volkswagen-ish, but there's absolutely no rehashing with the CL, which can't be said about the LS.
If you don't mind me asking...what's the biggest reason that you choose the LS460L over other full size luxury sedans? Also, besides the LS, which other cars that you've considered and test drove?
To each of his own I guess...
The only other car I test drove (briefly) was my friend's S550. The S550 was also the only other car that I considered purchasing. Taking everything into account, I prefer the LS.
Wake Up! Oh please wake up!! The dream is way over!!!!!
You need to chill because unless you are paying for my car then my opinion is as important as yours.
The reasons listed above are the same reasons that most buy the S-Class. It has to be one of the most road cars of any stripe. It's reliability is still ingot-solid with this '07 and up iteration, with no blips on the radar yet. It packs the most technology of any car in it's class(Night Assist, brake-and-resume Distronic). It's the safest car in it's class, outscoring everything in the EuroNCap and NHTSA.
Pricing is up for debate, but any of the cars in this arena can be fully pimped-out. A loaded LS460L will set you back roughly 100 big ones, right there with the just as loaded S550.
I don't see the advantage. Sorry.
Really?
A semi-loaded S550 will cost you about $107,440 and this is excluding the $5,630 Sport Package and $3,920 Active Body Control. Add those and bunch of other what-nots you are looking at $120K for a super ubber loaded S550. A fully loaded LS460L will run you about $91,947 (excluding the executive rear seat package since S550 doesn't have this option). So when we are talking about an apple-to-apple comparison then the result is not that simple huh?
You know I respect your opinion also. I'm still glad you went with the 460L instead of the 600hL. December is getting closer all the time. Seems to me you've got yourself a very nice Christmas gift heading your way. It's a big purchase, and you deserve to thoroughly enjoy it... And I certainly hope you do. Of course had you chosen the S550, you'd have a little more, but that's OK... I'll forgive you. LOL. Just kidding, of course. Enjoy that LS 460L!
Color?
TagMan
It's irrelevant that you don't see the advantage, you didn't buy either one of these cars.
Cyclone actually bought one of these cars and he voted with his wallet, I will take his opinion over yours.
When approaching the six-digit arena, the difference of a few large ones one way or another is more irrelevant at that point than it is to a buyer comparing a 14,000 car to a 16,000 car.
Let's be realistic for goodness sakes.
TagMan
When approaching the six-digit arena, the difference of a few large ones one way or another is more irrelevant at that point than it is to a buyer comparing a 14,000 car to a 16,000 car.
Let's be realistic for goodness sakes
Yes, let's be realistic, Louiswei shows the actual price differential to be about 30k, hardly peanuts, especially when the other guy was saying that both cars loaded were about the same price...Let's not let the facts get in the way of an apples to apples comparison...credit to Louiswei.
TM
I don't see the advantage. Sorry.
Actually, I ordered my new LS with every option available except the rear seat upgrade. I don't care about a cool box and tilting rear seats. The back seat passengers will be comfortable enough as is. I wanted a full size trunk of 18cf. After a $3K discount the dealer gave me, my cost is only about $81.9K. I think that's a great deal for such a vehicle. I think that a comparably equipped S550 would cost more than $100K.
BTW Tag, the color I ordered is smoky granite mica with black interior.
I agree. Cyclone has done well.
TM
Since many people lease, I think you should consider that of the 4 luxobarges you mentioned, the 7-series I believe will offer the lowest lease prices, not the LS.
All things being considered I would expect the Lexus should lease at a serious discount to the S550 or the A8 as it just doesn't offer the same driving experience as the other two.
Yes, please let us know, I'm going to be shopping soon. And if it is for real, ask him if it is for 08s or leftover 07s, or both.
And the other side of that argument is that some features are exclusive for the LS460 as well. That's why I left out the sports package and active body control for the S and executive rear seat for the LS since those are the biggest differences between the 2 models.
I am pretty sure there will be more minor differences between the 2 but they should be small enough to offset each other. The price that I posted is the closest that I think to an apple-to-apple comparison. If you don't agree then feel free to dig deeper and show us the actual fact. It'll be more meaningful than posting statement like "There's some different equipment between the cars, since some features are exclusive to the S-Class."
As for the $30K difference. I don't know what the mentality of those S/7/A8/LS buyers is but to me that means I can get another fun car like S2000, 350Z or the upcoming 128i with the LS but zip with the S550.
Big difference? Heck yeah to me.
The point of this is that the price is somewhat relative to the genuine nature of the car. This may sound harsh, but essentially the LS is cheaper because it's a cheaper car.
Generally, within a reasonable parameter of course, you get what you pay for. That's not to say that there aren't some consumer items that just shout "value!". Certainly there are those products that do that. But a $30K difference, for the most part, tells me that the LS is worth less than the S-Class... maybe not the entire $30K, but certainly less.
I wouldn't buy any argument that Lexus is giving away $30K, as that would be ridiculous. I would, however buy the argument that the LS is a good value, as I've always maintained that without that perceived value, the LS would not be as successful as it is.
Now, the currency exchange also affects this equation to some extent, but I don't think we need to enter into that... or else the next post will be a half-baked argument that the upcoming Hyundai Genesis is going to be equivalent to the LS, but at half the price!
Again, you generally get what you pay for, within some reasonable amount of fluctuation and margin... meaning that the LS, comparably equipped is essentially not just priced about $30K less than a comparable S-Class, but is also WORTH about $30K less! And, once again, just to be very clear here... I KNOW and RECOGNIZE the LS to be a good VALUE.
TagMan
Perception, perception, and perception...
When you get into that argument then I'll just rest my case with this discussion.
You are going to have LOADS of fun saying that to the new owners of the Hyundai Genesis, who will have the "perception" that they are driving the equivalent of a Lexus LS. Yet, somehow, I believe that you will not agree that they are equivalent in the real sense.
Same is true for the S-Class and the LS. $30,000 is enough difference to tell me that they are not equivalent in the true sense... and that it is more than just perception.
Otherwise, you couldn't take that "perception" and put it in the bank, or purchase an additional $30,000 car!
You are probably smart to "rest your case", because the perspective I have posted in my previous post # 7656 is one I will gladly share with other members of this forum and I think common sense will prevail.
It is easy enough to realize that the LS is a good value, and it is easy enough to realize that if your analysis of the difference in price is truly $30K, then the S-Class is worth approximately $30K more than the LS.
If the Hyundai Genesis comes in fully loaded with similar equipment to the LS at $35K less, than I believe that the difference between the vehicles will be a little more than "perception, perception, and perception."
TagMan
EDIT:
Go to the Cadillac website and explore the all-new '08 Cadillac CTS, and "build-your-own."
Look at the gallery as well, and see the amazing "value" of the CTS, fully-loaded at about $48,000. Is is equivalent to the LS? Point being... there is more here than "perception".
TM
I have to say that I've seen many things including computers, electronics, leather bags, shoes and bunch of what-nots that cost half (if not more) the price than the identical items with popular badges on it. Want proof? Go to China then you'll see.
I am not saying that the LS is a cheaper knock off of the S-class and I also admit that to many people the perception is that Lexus is still not on par with the MB and BMW. However, I am just not buying the "$30,000 is enough difference..." argument of yours. I am sure many people will but not me.
To be honest, 10 years ago the way I think was exactly like you, I don't think the LS should be even mention in the same sentence as the S-class. However, that went away gradually with all the improvements that Lexus made in the last decade and especially with the new LS460.
You are right, with the new Genesis I wouldn't consider it to be a legit luxury car fighter at all especially if it is going to carry the Hyundai badge. However, I do hope that Hyundai will start a luxury brand and if that's the case, I'll try to keep an open mind toward the whole situation.
As for the CTS, is it in the same class as the LS? Bad example. In many reviews I saw, CTS is often pitted against the 3-series. You want value? Try the G35, it is even a better value than the CTS. Is it a competitor against the LS?
I wouldn't go that far. I think the LS is definately in the same category as the S-class, and deservedly so. I do, however, believe that there are legitimate distinctions between the two vehicles that justifies that difference in price that is as large as $30,000.
I'll agree with you that perhpas the CTS wasn't the best example, but it was adequate in making the point of "perception" being one thing, and reality being another. Cadillac is an icon for the domestic leader, perhaps along with Lincoln, but I think Lincoln is not nearly as significant lately. So, I chose Cadillac.
It could very well be that the Hyundai Genesis is the better example, and I do believe it is.
Anyway, there is more to reality than just "perception", although with the degree in advertising, I acknowledge and totally understand that "perception" is a massive factor regarding consumer behavior... and it clearly applies to the Lexus LS.
That said, I completely believe that from an objective standpoint, $30,000 is significant enough to signal that there is a genuine difference in reality between the S-Class and the LS to justify that the S-Class is simply worth more... which has nothing to do with desireability or perception.
TagMan
From an objective point of view, until major mechanical differences can be found between the LS and S-series then it is safe to state that these 2 cars are in the same class with a price difference of $30K at most.
On the other hand, Because of the "$30K difference" then going on to conclude that "there is a genuine difference in reality between the S-Class and the LS" is purely subjective. Perception can also be included under this category.
I am not here to say subjective view is bad and objective view is good. Everybody eventually when buying a car or any other goods will use some subjective views. Some use more and some use less. I have yet to see a person who buys cars totally relying on objective differences.
OK, then... the Genesis will not be mechanically very different than the LS!
Heck, let's just go way too far here and you might as well say that the Avalon is mechanically similar to the LS... of course the cars are different!! Yikes!
TagMan
I don't know if there are any MAJOR mechanical differences between the LS and S but if there aren't then I see the 2 as equal competitors. If there are then please point them out or provide a link. It'll be a very useful resource to the future buyers.
Again, if the general public agree that the Genesis is a competitor in the full size luxury car segment then so be it. I am not going to cry "foul" but at the same time due to my subjective point of view I don't have to agree with that.
How much of the price gap is due to M-B's less efficient production systems (and where the S-class is built)? How much of it is pure badge premium? You know Mercedes charges more for the privilege of having that 3-pointed star on the hood, they always have. Is the S-class really "worth more" by some merit, or is it because its buyers perceive it to be worth more than an LS, and M-B recognizes that fact and charges more for it because they know customers will pay it?
There are inherent differences between different products. Now, you and I both know why so many goods are from China... So the labor rates and parts costs make a giant difference in some consumer products. Do you want a Chinese car? You might be driving one before you know it.
Have you eaten beef from Japan? Is it better?
Our Napa Valley wine here in California is better than most throughout the world... With some exceptions.
Bottom line is that there so many little and subtle differences between the S-Class and the LS... and $30K represents that the S Is worth more than the LS.
TagMan
Because 2 vehicles perform similar functions in similar ways does not translate into "they should both cost the same... or be within roundoff error of each other". Currency valuations aside, the price differences go well below skin deep. Additionally, MB has earned their brand valuation, although recent years are a stain on this great reputation. Don't think MB is not working to rectify this.
Lexus started out as a lower priced premium segment alternative with the $35K LS - they bought into the market on price, not engineering excellence as was the case established by MB & BMW. Many of these old Lexi are little different than old Toyota's IMO, where many older MB's & BMW's are collector cars that instill passion in their owners. This, my friend, translates into value and a "premium" that people will pay for.
I agree that MB has earned its brand valuation and I have no problem for them to charge more than the competitors. However, like another poster here has pointed out, how much of those "premium" are due to mechanical differences and how much are due to brand image? If you know the answer then please enlighten me because Dr. Z and wouldn't tell me...
If I am going to by a classic then you bet your rear that I wouldn't go get a Toyota. However, last I checked we are talking about a new Lexus vs a new MB right? I have no problem with people being passionate about their old MB and BMW, however, to carry that into new car purchasing in the 21st century, it is perception in my opinion. Again, nothing wrong with that.
Also lease costs are not that different between the two. The LS is not the value it once was and I would agree that the S has more prestige but the LS has much lower labor costs and that is its main price advantage.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You are right Louiswei and Cyclone, I didn't buy either car. I bought the more muscular and toned S600 instead. In fact, to my knowledge, nobody on this board has an '07 or later S-Class sedan.
Have either of you even driven the S-Class? I've driven and studied the LS plenty. After seeing the overly plasticky interior and can-we-update dash, I passed it over long before it was even an issue.
And I don't know what price you looked at, but the sticker on this LS460L that I tested was indeed 94k. Value? Hardly.
Again, the S-Class and the LS are different animals that carry diffferent price tags. The Mercedes' price tag when equipped similarly, according to your math, is higher by about $30,000 buckaroos... and you also posted the suggestion that it is a significant dollar amount.
So, therefore the Mercedes is significantly more expensive and carries an initial price that represents $30,000 more than the LS.
Once used, as houdini pointed out, things can change. However, as cars age beyond the normal terms of a lease, for example, some then retain a threshhold of value that still others do not, and further some turn into classics, and some turn into junk. Future valuations is a prediction process, and the longer the span of time, the harder it is to predict.
The initial price requires no crystal ball or guesswork.
TagMan
TagMan