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However, all these enjoyments can be stopped very quickly with statements like "you are wrong". Especially when this "you are wrong" is toward to an opinion that other poster expressed, not a fact.
You and I already addressed that yesterday. Opinions should be seen as such, provided they are expressed as such!
So, yes, let's get back to cars...
How about we start with a pic of the new Aston Martin N400:
Article and MORE pics...
link title
TagMan
The test mule has been caught wearing old Esprit body panels to disguise its origin.
The final bodywork will look like the M250:
Can't wait to see the final product. This is what Acura really need in its lineup with MSRP in between $40 - $50K, a poor man's Lotus.
Sources:
Autocar
Autoblog
Looks terrific!
TagMan
Again, Germans know how to make cars that drive nicely, they just don't stay together without a lot of work and money.
You do not know what you are talking about... as you have likely never owned a Porsche.
I'm on my third Porsche. The first was a former generation late 80's Carrera Targa. Flawless and tons of fun. Had it for years... and it's resale was terrific, too.
The second was the very first series '97 Boxster. Amazing mid-engine performance, but the early version needed a bit more ponies, which Porsche delivered in later years. It had a minor problem, one time, due to an engine sensor that prevented the engine from running. It was a quick fix, and the car was otherwise terrific.
It is true that there was a series of Boxsters around the '99 year that had serious engine malfunctions. Porsche stood up to the plate and rather than attempt to fix those engfines, they literally replaced the entire engines in those cars that were affected... talk about incredible customer service!!!! That's my kind of car company!!!
My third Porsche is the latest '07 997 series 911 Carrera S Cabriolet. The 997 series is absolutely the best Carrera ever built. There is no question of that. Awesome vehicle. So far, absolutely zero problems after almost one year. I don't expect there to be any. The car is superb, and handles so good, that there are only a handful of cars on the planet that could be condsidered a better driving car.
"Junk" is hardly a word for Porsche. I can't imagine who would say such a thing about some of the most incredible cars ever built, with a rich history as well. Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world.
On general, cars that are built to drive extremely hard and undergo near abuse by many of their drivers should be expected to need some extra TLC now and then. Considering the way Porsches are driven it is amazing the way they hold up so well.
Compared to Porsches, some cars are driven like old ladies. :shades:
TagMan
Again, Germans know how to make cars that drive nicely, they just don't stay together without a lot of work and money.
I have to agree with your assessment of Porsche. I had a 1990 911 Carrera, black on black, beautiful car, but the worst car I have ever owned from a reliability and maintenance perspective. Oil leaks, electrical problems, A/C and heater NEVER did work consistently and the unit was under powered, and lots of rattles. But, on the other hand, during the summers, I would make the drive to the beach on off hours and take back roads. I would go like a bat out of hell, would get the car up to 155! Looking back, I can't believe I did that, but heck that was 17 yrs. ago. Worst car, but perhaps the most fun car.
Using a car that was built 17 years ago as a current-day indicator of reliability is the equivalent of comparing the first computers that ran off of 5-1/4 floppies and CPM operating systems.
Gosh, certainly you realize that there has been just a little progress in 17 years!!... cell phones, plasma and LCD televisions are simple examples.
You might as well tell us about your original computer game experience with "Pong", while the rest of us can compare today's games like Half-Life 2, Doom, Madden Football, Fear, and Bioshock.
Recent data proves that most of what would have been considered the average cars of 17 years ago would be below the worst cars of today. You can take the lowest-half average of today's "reliability chart" and it is better than the top-half average of the very best cars of 17 years ago!!!
Now THAT's the true difference in comparing and referencing the reliability of a car of 17-years ago to a car that is built today.
Your story is interesting and I'm glad to learn that you had so much fun with your Porsche way back then. Just a couple of years before that, I owned a Ferrari, and believe me when I tell you that in spite of the amazing fun it offered, I was scared to dealth of every visit to the service department.
Just learning that you were willing to own a Porsche in spite of the greater risk associated with it back then is a terrific testimony to the REAL reason you owned it... namely the FUN you had... as you said in the last four words of your post!!!
BTW, even though my modern 997 series 911 Carrera S is flawless so far, I have an exteded 7-year / 70,000 mile service contract that the dealership made as part of the "deal"... just in case. I rarely keep cars that long, but any concern of service issues is eliminated with that service protection!
I owned a GMC Denali a number of years back, with a service contract. That service contract saved me over $10,000 in repairs!!! So, you really never know for sure when any car could take a grab at your wallet.
Anyway, just the fact that you owned a Porsche, even if 17 years ago, and even if it gave you some grief along with that 155 mph drive and all the FUN you described is a great post. LOL!
The last four words of your post are the ones that mean the most to me!!
TagMan
I have to say that what data is there to support any major problems surrounding Porsche cars, save for some early release Cayennes and last-gen Boxsters? The 911 is iconic not because it literally runs circles around mostly everything out there, but because you can track the car all-day and drive it another 1000 miles back home and the car still begs for more.
I can key in on this topic because I've owned two in the past. An air-cooled RS and a 2001 911 Cab4. Both of them were nothing short of flawless.
The only coveat that some people may have with Porsche cars may be because of the maintenance that must be performed when required. The 15k mile service is costly compared to, say, a Chevy Cobalt
Is Porsche junk now because JDP and everybody's fav. CR has shuffled what used to be the best brands in reliability to mid-pack level? Or could it be PERCEPTION again?
Great post and well said! You know I certainly appreciate and agree with all of it.
Funny... but have you noticed recently that just a few specific posters have directly targeted some of the finest cars in the world?
All that denial of Audi's interior, and the worthiness of the S-Class, and now they tell us that Porsche is junk... all this by a few posters who you would think have a greater in-depth knowledge and appreciation for these fine cars and their wonderful attributes.
I'll gladly take an Audi R8 or my 997 any day! I'D gladly take an S-600 or an S8 as well.
TagMan
One brand that was complete junk 17 years ago was Jaguar. Look how far they've come since then. My XK8 has been absolutely flawless, unlike say, your average Lexus GS.
TM
There's a pic of what MAY be the next XJ in one of the December car rags... maybe you saw it. I forget which one it was in, but I haven't thrown them away yet, so I'll check when II get a chance and let you know.
But, the real news about the pic is how horrible the car looks, if it is a genuine representation. If that thing is the real next XJ, you won't be buying one of THOSE. If the new XJ looks like that pic... the only sellable inventory for Jag will be the XK and the C-XF, and I don't know if they could survive without a sellable XJ or not.
Assuming it is the actual car and it releases as a 2010 model, I even have to wonder if its ugliness will cause the '04 through the '09 models to conceivably go UP slightly in value, and hold that value.
TagMan
I think I might've seen it somewhere, it had a big, chunky nose right?
There is no way that could be the real car... cause if it is, the XJ will surely go from it's current life-support to a quick death.
Tag
No one here hasn't mentioned how the Lexus GS in now classified as a LEMON by CR. Or that the Camry V-6 has a black eye on it's once unapproachable reliability record, all the while the Accord V-6 and even some domestics have held there own here. Or that the Tundra 4WD is worthless and it stays in the shop more than it does at the construction site.
It's simply amazing, I thought, that when we're on an issue concerning the S-Class viability, I knew the volcano was about to explode. Factoring in a little VW/Audi chatter and Porsche's "unreliable" standings, it was going to be fun.
But you and I and most others here that participate know a good fiction novel when we see one in the making.
Make that three. The XKR is serving on Jag's promise of renewed reliability for the brand. And you'd think that with all of the electronics that run under the metal of these automobiles that it would be 1985 all over again.
Think again naysayers.
You know we are here.
Jose
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I found the 2010 XJ pic: page 22, November R & T. :sick:
My '05, along with the '04 through '09 will go up in value as a result.
TM
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And I wonder why Lexus is such a joke everywhere else in the world?
One word: unnecessary. Do not bring sales into this forum. It will only lead to arguments and we'll end up like AutoSpies.
I think you know as well as I do that Audi makes superior cars...
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
It would have been helpful if you had made that clear, because I just lost a lot of respect for you when that was posted.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Now YOU have a nice day. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The players, and their final rankings:
1st Place: '07 Maserati Quattroporte Sport GT
2nd Place: '07 Mercedes Benz S550
3rd Place: '08 Jaguar XJ Super V8
Last Place: '08 Lexus LS600hL
Two quotes:
The one car that every voter wanted to mortgage his sole for was the Maserati.
The Mercedes Benz S550 is arguably the best car here by all objective measures.
Why do I predict that someone here will dispute this?
:shades:
TagMan
I thought it was obvious. I made the same interpretation as you.
Tag
I saw that article briefly and it made little sense because the S class hardly won any of the objective measurements. The last place LS 460LH had a faster time 0 to 100 and a better braking distance 60 to 0. What objective parts of the test did the S class win?
Since you knew that statement would be challenged you obviously noticed this also.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
First Place- Lexus LS- 29,051
2nd Place- Merc.s------25,119
Last Place- Audi A/S8- 3,082
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Haven't heard from you on any of the boards for the past few weeks.
I'm willing to give Jag the benefit of the doubt on this one, and wait for the official "C-XJ" concept car. Even if it is lousy, I don't exactly see older XJs turning into investments. E-types they are not.
Now they just need some decent marketing. The A6 is absolutely a better car than the GS, (and it's more reliable, too!) and it really should be outselling it. I think the reasons why it isn't come down to bad marketing, (some) bad apple dealers, and bad memories of Audis from 10 years ago that were shop queens.
I know you meant to type the LS600hL, not the 460.but it looks to me like you are trying to cherry pick the long list of objective measurements... for example, since when does the 0-100 get used more than the 0-60?
But let's answer your question about which objective parts the S-Class won!
On a 0-60, they are BOTH 5.6 seconds, and yet the LS600hL has 438 HP and the Mercedes Benz reaches 60 at the same time with 382 HP. So, that is obviously from an objective standpoint a win for the S550, no matter how you look at it!
Passing, 45 - 65 was only 2.6 seconds for the 382 HP S550, but the 438 HP LS600hL was slower to pass, at 2.9 seconds! More objective evidence, as the Mercedes S550 was .30 seconds quicker in the passing maneuver.
The braking difference between the LS and Benz was only a small difference of 5 feet. Differences that small and insignificant can sometimes be associated with the tires and sometimes don't duplcate the same in subsequent tests. You know this for a fact, because the Lexus brake test results were very contraversial and very different from test to test when the car was first released, as I'm sure you recall. In fact, the REAL braking champion in this comparo was the Maserati, not the Lexus or the Mercedes, if you look at the data, as it bested the Lexus by 15 feet!!. The Jag's brakes were not all that impressive, but I wouldn't call them horrible either.
The Lateral acceleration and MT figure eight were nearly identical between the LS and the Benz once again, as the Mercedes beat the Lexus by a tiny amount that IMO doesn't matter all that much, but nonetheless was objectively better for the Mercedes.
Considering the LS600hL cost $17,000 MORE than the Mercedes S550, the "value" here also becomes clear.
BTW, the cargo area, which is significant to many is as follows: 11.7 cubic feet for the Lexus LS600hL, and 16.3 cubic feet for the Mercedes S550. That's a whopping 71% advantage for the Mercedes!!
You asked for objective evidence and now you have it! I agree with the Motor Trend article.
TagMan
TagMan
TagMan
I only saw the article briefly while browsing in Barnes and Noble, but I saw enough to see that it was extremely subjective rather than objective IMO.
How can you cherry pick if the statement was it won EVERY objective measure? 50/50 at best.
As far as pricing goes, I think that is what has held sales fairly low for the LS600HL. It has probably lost a lot of sales to the S class because many who wanted one just could not afford it and settled for the S class. I am sure you will agree with me on that because I have heard you espouse this theory many times in the past.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
They could have said ...
The Mercedes Benz S550 is arguably the best car here by nearly all objective measures.
or...
The Mercedes Benz S440 is arguably the best car here after considering all the objective measures.
TagMan
EDIT: BTW, I thought you had decided to leave this forum... Welcome back?? LOL!
Cdnpinhead, thanks you for your welcome.
I have not really posted much during the last weeks. Being the autumn so nice at the mountains this year, I am spending most of my free time outdoors. Yet I keep reading the posts as much as possible (and getting angry at some of them :confuse: ).
Regards,
Jose
I'm trying but this thing is worse than crack cocaine! Plus all the emails I got urging me to return because it was getting so dull here and needed some balance.
Just call me Bill O'Reilly, fair and balanced! :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Regards
Jose
You are probably correct. Right now is probably the sweet spot for buying something like an '04 XJR. They are going for in the mid $30s now, and owning one for maybe 3 years should only mean $10K or so worth of depreciation, instead of $10K or more a year.
TagMan
Then I guess we're stuck with ya!
Plus all the emails I got urging me to return because it was getting so dull here and needed some balance.
LOL. I'll bet your mailbox was overflowing!! :P
Heck, where's the Doc? Maybe he needs some emails, too! I, for one, miss his "Toyota is the best... no matter what is wrong with them" posts... and his "Lexus is the pursuit of perfection... and closing in fast" posts.
TagMan
EDIT: So, tell me, what the heck is wrong with the TUNDRA??? :sick: :lemon:
link title
Here's the Final Verdict:
There’s no doubt the LS600h is the ultimate example of Lexus’s technical prowess. It blends all the firm’s hybrid know-how with the quality, refinement and hi-tech gadgetry for which it’s famed.
As a result, the luxury saloon offers class-leading mechanical refinement and cabin quietness. The trouble is, it comes across as being rather bland.
More crucially, while the low 219g/km emissions are very impressive, it’s hard to get the car to run on battery power alone. And our average of less than 20mpg suggests there are few reasons to opt for the hybrid over the standard LS460, which performs as well and is only slightly less economical.
This poor result, combined with the fact the Lexus costs so much, means the Audi A8 earns an easy victory here. Not only is it £20,000 cheaper, it’s also better designed from superior materials, just as fast and around 10mpg more efficient.
Nevertheless, if your passion for hybrids is matched only by the size of your wallet, the LS600h is a fine luxury car that sends out the right message – even if it doesn’t work as well as a Toyota Prius, which costs a quarter of the price.
TagMan
Close but no cigar.
First year model glitch and growing pain for Toyota entering the "real" full size truck business.
That's all, don't read too much into it.
First year model glitch and growing pain for Toyota entering the "real" full size truck business.
That's all, don't read too much into it.
Gee, it sure would have been nice if the Porsche Cayenne had received that kind of perspective!
TagMan
Close but no cigar.
Well...
That's two articles in the last two days posted here that show that the LS600hL comes in last.
What we have here is.... The LS600hL Lexus flagship losing to the Maserati Q, the Mercedes S550, the Jaguar Super V8, and now the Audi A8!!
I wonder what the Doc thinks of all of this?
TagMan
That was a stupid comparo from the very beginning.
The LS600hL should go head to head with the 760i and S600. The Lexus entry in this comparo should be a LS460L. Load it up if they want to but I just plain hate the apples to orange comparisons. Oh, and why is the Maserati Q in this comparison? It's natural counterpart should be the MB CLS and the upcoming BMW flagship 4-door coupe. Throw the future Porsche and AM 4-door coupe into this group if you like but the bottom line is that the Masa Q doesn't not belong here.
Stupid comparos like this really makes me to take the auto mags with a grain of salt...
TagMan