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Comments
... which had little to do with the tranny.
TM
Absolutely. But, it is a mistake to generalize the entire marque that way. There should be better model tiering, which is what makes the demographics spread out properly. Lexus is caught off guard with this... still too old, IMO... the opposite of the VW youth magnet, also a problem.
BMW has better model tiering, IMO. One of the best, also IMO.
TagMan
True, there are also other reasons. The point I was trying to get across is that even with the "fanboys" and "enthusiasts" rushing to the showroom to pick up their IS300, the sales for that car was still craptaculour. On the other hand, with only 5% of the IS250 going out the door with sticks (the percentage will be even lower if counting the IS350) the sales is much better compare to the first gen IS. At the end, what really pushes the sales is not the "loud minority" but the "silent majority".
Only for Lexus that is.
It is shown before that the average buying age for the IS is lower than the 3-series (I know, this is the average buying age, which does NOT translate to more young people are buying the IS than 3er) so that proves that Lexus does offer products that young people want. The GS is the next level up with LS tops off, I don't see how that's different than what BMW is doing with the 3, 5, and 7-series 3-tier lineup.
Sure Lexus should makes a better 5-series fighter out of the GS and there are a lot of room of improvement for the next IS, GS and LS but that's different than saying Lexus has wrong model tiering. I might be splitting hair here but at least that's what I think after reading your post.
With either a compact crossover or A-segment car (1-series fighter) joining the lineup in the future I can see the average buying age for Lexus decline even more by then.
Lexus was trying to imitate MB from day one so it's not a surprise that its model lineup turns out more MBish than BMWish. With reputations like good quality, luxury, and comfort secured in the bank Lexus now has more freedom to explore the "fun" part. The current baby Lex in my opinion is a good start and a good product to improve on.
The homework from Lexus now is on how to attract new and younger buyers without losing the core and loyal ones.
Really? I'm surprised. Consider the difference between an ES and an LS, for example. Is the difference about price of a model/type of car, or targeted age? And, pulleeeze explain what you don't see as wrong with the GS to me... I personally still see this car as having an identity crisis!
It's one thing to build cars at different tiers, and quite another to attract diffferent age tiers. I don't think Lexus has accomplished that very well with their lineup.
I still believe that BMW has done the better job than most with a tremendous draw to buyers across the age spectrum.
Sorry, but that's just how I see it.
TagMan
Is it possible to make a good business decision that is financially bad?
The point of adding a manual would simply be the 'halo effect'. Lexus would not need to make many but would benefit from being able to put up and add in the Superbowl with someone rowing he gears.
The old chestnut is the Maxima which was once considered as much of a driver's car as you could get in that segment with it's stick shift. Nissan pulled the stick, added weight to the car and sales plummeted.
Obviously not Lexus's situation but if you are going to be sporty you have to actually be sporty. That requires a nod to manual shifting.
The IS fills an obvious niche effectively.
The ES fills a niche that none of the other lux-marques took on. They may not be the kind of drivers we all aspire to be, but a front wheel drive, ultra quiet, smooth ride admirably fills the need for a huge segment of the public. I say kudos to Lexus for getting folks out of their Buicks.
The LS is (IMO) a great vehicle. I'm a fan of the L-Finesse thing and the LS appropriately takes care of the Lexus demographic.
Which leaves the GS.
Or rather the 5 and the E- leave the GS.....
Imagine if Lexus got the GS right?
Especially if you are in the situation of needing to build upon that reputation (Lexus), as opposed to already having it!... (which, as with BMW, inherently then provides more latitude.)
TagMan
What's wrong with having the GS as Lexus' midsize sedan? Yeah sure it can be a better E or 5er fighter but there is nothing wrong for it being in the current spot within the Lexus lineup.
Model tiering:
IS as entry as sedan
GS as midsize sedan
LS as fullsize sedan
Sorry I still don't see what's wrong with that model tiering. However, I can probably give you a list on how will I like to see Lexus on improving each model. Given that Lexus and BMW have different kind of core buyers I just don't see how Lexus can be more successful than it is now if adopting BMW's philosophy. The fact that ES is currently Lexus' best selling sedan tells that there is a big size of buying public who like cushy and unsporty luxury car whether it's FWD or RWD. Maybe they are not as vocal as the "enthusiasts" but that doesn't mean they should be overlooked. At the end of the day, their Benjamin is just as good as yours and mine.
There is a lot to the whole auto industry besides BMW...
For almost two decades I drove cars solely with a stick and would not have it any other way.
But your opinion and my opinion about sporty is a bit dated. BMW introduced the M5 without a manual tranny and didn't think twice about it until rumblings of protest happened in USA. Not a whimper or a single nostalgic tear elsewhere in the world including enthusiast driving Europe.
Sport is being redefined and soon double clutched DSG type trannies will be the RIP Stone for the manual tranny. A few people from the old school like us may prefer to row their own gears but new automated trannies row so fast that a manual stick will become as uselful as an appendix.
In fact I'd rather row my own gears and sacrifice the performance of a DSG type tranny. I guess that makes me a non-sporty Luddite. :confuse:
Agree, that's why I am a lot more upset about Lexus not offering MT on the IS-F than the IS350. I would like to see at least a dual clutch kind transmission on the first ever -F car, hopefully the LF-A (or GT-F) will come with it instead of the same old 8-speed even though it's one heck of a transmission.
On the other hand, none of the AMG cars comes with MT or dual clutch tranny...
I notice a change in BMW buzzwords. Ultimated Driving Machine is hardly ever heard nowadays from BMW. In fact I am hearing the words " BMW manufacturer of dynamic efficient cars" more than " BMW manufacturer of dynamic performance cars.
Lexus and BMW performance I think will not get closer since many Lexus owners would be alienated with a BMW-like car. But BMW and Lexus may resemble each others more closely in the future by manufacturing new luxury fuel efficient cars. Lexus has a head start in USA but BMW efficiency is far more evident in Europe in the form of their diesels.
The dual shift DSG is a sure-fire competitor for a manual in terms of giving the perception of sporty.
I think the European market is a tough gauge of whether there was satisfaction with the approach taken with the M5. With virtually ALL models being readily available with manual I think that Europe views stick-shift as the norm rather than the 'sporty' exception that it has become in the US.
Equally, Lexus has struggled to gain a foot hold in Europe. I am not enough of a 'Lexus-in-Europe' expert to have a valid reason why, but certainly a lack of manual availability and diesel have both hurt Lexus.
In the US market, offering a stick shift (with perhaps BMW as the exception) is really just an exercise in brand definition. Certainly Lexus would not expect to make or sell more than 5-10% IS with a manual but that would enable them to send that iteration to all the car-mags and feature it on TV.
BTW, I am yet to try the DSG type tranmission and I am sure it shifts faster than I do, however I cannot believe there is the same sense of satisfaction in toggling a little button with my thumb as there is in down-shifting 2 gears, bringing up the engine speed and slowly de-clutching. It's just fun.
Oh god, not the hybrid vs. diesel again... :P
I agree with what you said and I still want to see a production hybrid diesel. Looks like MB is the first to the party and let's see who will be the first to make that into production.
Whoa! Does that matter to MB? Does AMG need to define itself as a performance car?
Or does Lexus, in part?
TagMan
For me, the MT is a genuine connection to the vehicle, and I like that... (especially, but by no means exclusively, in a Porsche!)
TagMan
Not really...
If Lexus can define the F series to be as good as the AMG then I think that's mission accomplished.
They still have a long way to go though.
Not really...
You are contradicting yourself. Of course, Lexus has the need to define performance for itself... not AMG, or BMW (especially the M variants). The F series is hardly a reality yet, so as I see it, the burden is still upon Lexus, in part.
If Lexus can define the F series to be as good as the AMG then I think that's mission accomplished.
Perhaps... if AMG is the real target, but regardless..."IF" is a key word in your statement.
They still have a long way to go though.
Exactly... they do. So, you agree, then.
TagMan
Last I checked, manual tranny is certainly not in the AMG formula.
Just to make myself clear, I am not making the statement that the Lexus performance division is on par with the AMG or anything, I was just using AMG as an example to support my belief about Lexus does no necessary need manual transmission for their cars in order to build a reputation for performance.
And yes, I do agree that Lexus still has a long way to go from building world class performance machines. A successful IS-F and LF-A can bring them much closer though.
The latest AMG 7GTronic in the C63 has rev matching and is supposed to be excellent. I'm pretty sure the Aisin 8-speed in the IS-F matches revs as well. A rev matching autobox with paddle shifters comes very close to the experience of a sequential gearbox, and is of course still unbeatable in terms of smoothness in pure auto mode.
Automatic transmissions are slow-acting, power-sapping, indirect hindrances between an engine and a driver's will, right? Yet the IS-F's eight-speed Sport Direct Shift automatic transmission (AA80E) obliterates this notion with an entirely novel — and we think industry-changing — control system.
While the hardware again has its foundation in the transmission of the LS sedan, lightweight yet robust internals plus a complete rewiring of the transmission's brain have produced an entirely new definition of an automatic transmission. In manual mode, it comes as close to instant shifting as anything we've driven.
When manual mode (shifted via steering-column paddles or the console-mounted gearlever) is selected, upshift times drop from a Lexus IS 350's typical 1.3 seconds (0.7 second to initiate plus 0.6 second to change ratios) to a mere 0.3 second (0.2 second to initiate plus 0.1 second to shift). We also appreciate the perfectly timed tone that reminds you to shift just before you hit the rev limiter in each gear.
The gloriously quick downshifts (with matched revs) sound as if the car has a true sequential gearbox. It's unbelievable. The only other transmission that comes close to such quick, driver-friendly action is the dual-clutch DSG gearbox like the one in an Audi A3, or perhaps the latest $9,000, Formula 1-style automated sequential manual like that in the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano.
To be clear about my perspective, I wouldn't take the world's fastest auto shifter over the MT in my Porsche... ever, under any circumstance... and to be even clearer... I wouldn't even buy the Porsche if it wasn't available with a stick.
I came close to being confused about that once... Once. I am clear about it now.
TagMan
You heard about the launch assistant on the GT2? What's your take on that?
-Moo
My take? I think NASA could use some consulting time with Porsche.
For those that need to know more about madmanmoo's post on the GT2's Launch Assistant... here is the scoop:
link title
Holy cow!! (joke intended!), madmanmoo, I'd LOVE to try it out, but to be totally honest, I doubt I would ever use it all that much. I'm certainly not saying it's a gimmick, because it is truly functional without the major pre-requisites, perfect conditions, and owner's manual at the side (like an LS park-assist feature, as a terrible example)... but I am saying that I don't think it would be used a lot by most buyers except to occassionally prove the potential for the car in a VERY real way... adrenaline fix, anyone?
(BTW, I considered a GT2, but I was warned the ride would be too jarring for regular use, and I had already just finished an extremely short-lived relationship with a very jarring Lotus Elise... hence my choice of the Carrera S. But in my dreams, I occasisonally drive the GT2! )
TagMan
My only complaint, sometimes I feel like the driver doesn't need to be any good anymore. The computers are starting to do everything!
-moo
Double-edged sword / Pros and Cons.
My friend, that statement itself makes for a GREAT topic of discussion.
TagMan
In fact, I built an LS460L last week, and the Executive Package is no longer available on the site. Perhaps they're trying to further differentiate the LS600hL from the LS460, but I think they should've left it alone.
:confuse:
In further news... I'm thinking more economically. The 335xi coupe and 535xi sedan are on the top of my winter car list right now. The "A" Audis don't appeal to me like the standard BMWs, but it's the opposite with S/RS vs. M, on a case-by-case basis. For instance, I like the A8 a LOT more than the 7... and I would be equally happy with an S6 or an M5.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Do you think a strategic and intentional model tier differentiation with the LS600hL is the reason, or some sort of supply/demand production issue? If the former, I wonder what was the nature of the real problem that would prompt such a decision. :confuse:
TagMan
In this case I would definitely go for the QP automatica. No sedan can match its style (imho) which is a sheer blend of elegance, sportiness (it isn't, I know) and fashion. It is a "warm" car with a personality that gives smile when we hop into one , not saying I would cry behind a wheel of M5 though.
I would like one with a V8 + Turbo. would be the absolute compromise I am dreaming of. Current V8 is thirsty and rev happy, not really my style.
This brand has an aura of sympathy in France, in contrast to BMWs which sometimes are associated with less smiling characters, which is baseless of course. and Maseratis aren't many in this part of Europe.
The Maserati is very unperfect and needs some more engineering, but it is a treat to the eye, definitely.
I think that Europe views stick-shift as the norm rather than the 'sporty' exception that it has become in the US.
Equally, Lexus has struggled to gain a foot hold in Europe. I am not enough of a 'Lexus-in-Europe' expert to have a valid reason why, but certainly a lack of manual availability and diesel have both hurt Lexus.
Rightly so, IMO. You know well.
Regards,
Jose
I personally think this option is pointless if I intended to drive the car myself. However, if I have a chauffeur then that's a whole new different story...
The 2008 winners are:
• Audi AG: FSI 2.0L turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Audi A3)
• BMW AG: 3.0L turbocharged DOHC I-6 (335i Coupe)
• Daimler AG: 3.0L DOHC V-6 Turbodiesel (Mercedes E320 CDI)
• Ford Motor Co.: 4.6L SOHC V-8 (Mustang Shelby GT/Bullitt)
• General Motors Corp.: 3.6L DOHC V-6 (Cadillac CTS)
• General Motors Corp.: 6.0L OHV V-8 Hybrid (GMC Yukon Hybrid)
• Honda Motor Co. Ltd.: 3.5L SOHC V-6 (Accord Coupe)
• Mazda Motor Corp.: 2.3L DISI turbocharged DOHC I-4 (Mazdaspeed3)
• Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.: 3.7L DOHC V-6 (Infiniti G37)
• Toyota Motor Corp.: 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Lexus IS 350)
Here's the criteria for the engines that got nominated for the award, which explains why some super high performance engines were not included:
This year, six Ward's editors nominated 37 engines for the competition. Over two months, editors scored each engine against all others in a number of objective and subjective parameters. Each engine must be available in a regular-production, U.S.-specification model on sale no later than the first quarter of 2008 in a vehicle priced no more than $54,000, a price cap indexed to the average cost of a new vehicle.
Source: Wards announces "Ten Best Engines" list for 2007
Exactly! Similarily some devoted photographers prefer their very used vintage Hasselblads and Leicas over those newest and best kinds of digital cameras . Fun and manual control is definitely IMO a priority with driving.
Stripping features of an existing model in order to distinguish a higher model with that very same feature sounds like a cop out excuse to me.
The above are the hottest cars on a dealers lots. What a nice change to see a GM auto on top.
DETROIT -- Honda Motor Co. is "quite sure" it will be able to hit the fuel-efficiency target Congress is considering in an energy bill, the head of the auto maker's U. S. Operations said on Wednesday.
The bill would require car makers to produce fleets of vehicles that average 35 miles per gallon.
"It is a very difficult target, Tetsuo Iwamura told reporters. "But we are quite sure we will be able to achieve it in the future."
Mr. Iwamura said Honda is developing a new generation of gas-electric hybrid engines that will be ready "in the very near future" for small cars and they will play a big role in reaching the 35 mile per gallon average.
"We are going to have new hybrids," he said, adding they will. The "main technology" for reducing fuel consumption.
This is exactly why Honda is not eager to develop V8 engines for Acuras. Still there is no excuse for not developing RWD Acura sedans.
No surprise that the twin turbo was picked over the BMW i6 NA engine.
More oomph and perfromance with twin turbo i6 or V6 engines is going to become more prevalent as V8s become less popular as auto markets become greener.
If Acura can't see this then they might as well pull out of the luxury market and declare themselves as a niche manufacture like Alfa Romeo.
I had stated it is unlikely that Acura will have a V8 sedan.
In the grand scheme of things V8 trucks and luxury vehicles dont mean much for a company who is striving to maintain its image as the most environmentallly friendly auto company.
In the luxury lounge here we may be baffled by the lack of a V8. But luxury is not the foundation of Honda nor should it be. I dont know if you noticed but Acura is already sliding into luxury oblivion and it appears Honda feels no panic about this situation.
Most Honda fanfare today is with regards to their new CR Hybrid and diesels. Volvo and Saab have destroyed their positive environmental image by producing autos with V8s. Honda's certainly not that desperate.
Pardon me but I am no Lexus features expert but dont you have to pay extra for it now while before it was a non-option feature? And if that is the case then wouldn't stripped be an appropriate term to describe such a thing.
The executive seating was an option (not standard) from day one that the LS460L was launched.
What about that pretty Shiatsu Masseuse is she also a part of that luxury package in the LS460L?.
My '08 GTI has Ward's best engine in the world! And, oh yes, it is very good...
But, what about the Porsche GT2's engine? Hmmm.
BTW, speaking of the Porsche GT2's "Launch Assistant", the GTI / DSG combo has what is dubbed "Launch Control program" of its own. I tried it recently... let's just say, it really works!!
TagMan
I am pretty sure the Porsche GT2 is well over the $54k mark...
Good point. I lost sight of that restriction. Thanks Lou.
TM
What about the rest of you? What are your next vehicle plans?
TagMan
Ready, FIRE, Aim......
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460