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I should point out, though, that we're not here to help you do your homework, much as we might like to do so. Why don't you give us your impressions of the two vehicles? That's the best way to prompt responses.
Thank you blkhemi... that was my point exactly! Glad to see others do their research too! :shades:
I read the link... and I stand corrected. When the "real deal" hits the street that will be the proof in the pudding. Yet I stand firm on the cheap interior, and at the same time appreciate a lot of people are OK with that... and in fact like it. To me however it looks like another same old, same old, nothing really gets my attention. But look, this is my opinion and It is not going to be changed because there are those that like it. Relax :shades:
a company with very little ethic. can't be compared with Zhonghua who subcontract for BMW.
If they lift so many of their design from competitors, no wonder they can output so many new products.
Sum up
The convincing driving dynamics of the X6 impress so much that they very much hide the question : what's the meaning of this?
Who needs a SUV with a Coupé stance and the road handling of a sports car?
Reasonably nobody, and there maybe lies its chance.
I have a suspicion that we will see more of these mad scientist vehicles, before the market either accepts or rejects (hopefully) them.
TagMan
If I were in the market for a minivan, I wish BMW rather develop a fast version of a people carrier, but more dynamic than the heavy R Class. Something like a muscled-up Honda Chinese Odyssey http://www.guangzhouhonda.com.cn/products/index_jsp_catid_770_771_898.shtml
but bigger and with V6 turbo power.
Sure I am biased but Edmunds is even more biased than me regarding the IS-F. That's why I don't just read one review, I read several, since you are not so biased why don't you check out Motor Trend, C&D, R&T's reviews on IS-F. Maybe you'll learn a thing or few about the car.
Oh, and as for the track, even the biased Edmunds admitted that the IS-F is really one excellent track car. As matter of fact they stated that this car is actually a better drive on the track than real road conditions.
And this is a Lexus? Shocking!!! :surprise:
No problem, totally understand.
I am one of those "oddballs" who think Audi interiors are nothing to phone home about anyway...
I don't think BMW is going for V6 anytime soon.
...
Is it because Acura says they are?
Pretty much. How can a company be taken seriously as a luxury auto maker while offering nothing but FWD based vehicles?? I would as soon consider Buick and Chrysler "luxury" nameplates (and they originally were) as Acura.
The last RS6 was better than the M5 and E55 as well, but it was so late to the party that it made a very minimal impact. The new one should be a real monster, especially considering that, IMO, BMW completely dropped the ball with this M5, and the current E63 isn't hugely different from the last one.
"After spending half a day lapping around Laguna Seca, we were won over by
the car's accurate steering, minimal body roll and outright gripLexus' fat bank roll. ..."LOL!
j/k :P
I don't know what's the ratio of Audi FWD/AWD sold here in the states but I wouldn't be surprised if the it is close to 50/50.
The next gen TL will have the SH-AWD as an option so look at it this way, Acura is becoming the Japanese Audi.
Now that, folks, is irony at its finest! :P
Acura is one of those "tween" brands, like Volvo and Saab, operating well below the $30K entry barrier of most of the "true" luxury brands, while having nothing above $50K or so. Incidentally, all of Volvo and Saab's products are also FWD based (except for the 9-7X, but that doesn't really count as a "Saab product"). Volvo at least has more than 5 models, actual engine choices, and a V8. They buy it from Yamaha, but it's better than nothing.
The original Legend really was half decent, and Acura quality used to be stellar. The transmission failures in the TL\CL put an end to that. Now the quality is just average, and the cars are mediocre. Pass.
I don't think that's an irony:
Don't believe everything you read but try to read as much as possible.
Easy concept to me at least...
Ah yes! The good old Legend. I used to be in love with that car. I thought it was beautiful. I wanted one so badly, I could taste it!
Also, I have no problem with Lexus moving closer to the performance half of the equation. Do I think Lexus will become BMW, probably not. Do I want them to be the next BMW, heck no. What I want to see is Lexus finding a good balance between luxury and performance (much like the MB does but even better), The IS is a good start, they just need to be consistent and infuse that to the whole lineup (sedan at least).
If I am Lexus I'll keep the on perfecting the basic equation that makes the ES and RX best sellers in the states. Never mess with success, ask Acura about the Legend and Ford about the Taurus then they'll tell you why...
However, rumor has it that the next ES will become RWD though, I don't know how much truth is in that.
That aint going to happen. A RWD ES will make a RWD GS redundant unless Lexus drops the GS from its product and that is highly unlikely.
Chery's engines are good enough for Fiat to buy 100K of their 1.6l and 1.8l engines.
Does BMW buy engines from Zhoughua?
I dont know much about the Chinese automotive industry but based on what was written by the WSJ it does seem quite impressive. Nor am I defending Chery Copycat designs but copycat designs (to a lesser degree) have always existed in the auto industry.
Chrysler seemed so impressed with Chery that their staking quite a lot on their relationship with this firm:
Earlier this year, Chrysler executives visited Chery and could see the rapid progress that occurred over 18 months. "I would say the 'aha' moment for us would be when we subsequently visited Chery," in June, says Richard Chow-wah, a Chrysler senior vice president. The "ability to make decisions quickly without a lot of bureaucracy was what was most impressive."
Chery can "offer low-cost platforms with speed," says Tom LaSorda, president and vice chairman of Chrysler, which has said it will eliminate 25,000 jobs in North America. Visiting Chery's plants in 2006, he says, he found that "everything was very familiar," with production processes and equipment very similar to those in top Western factories.
From the WSJ I had posted yesterday.
But I agree, a RWD ES in addition to the GS is illogical, especially when you consider the fact that the ES is bigger than the GS; volumetrically speaking, at least. OR, now that I think about it, they could do it and make the GS lean more to the performance side so it can become the true "performance alternative" to the ES that it was supposed to be in the first place! Hmmm...
But I think Honda's priorities now is more towards fuel efficiency than performance/luxury and based on trends that may not be such a bad idea.
Wow, you do a lot of bashing on Acura but it just all seems to be your opinion with no facts offered. Here are some facts according to the Jan. 08, CR:
1. The TSX is rated #1 in reliability for upscale cars.
2. Both the RL and the TL are faster 0 to 60 and the quarter mile than the A4 and A6.
3. The RL and the TL are rated much more reliable than Audi A4/A6, BMW, MB and many others.
I could go on and on but that is a good start. Acura is not a top notch luxury auto but they have their niche and their place and most of their cars offer good value and a good balance between luxury and performance.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Acura's overall reliability is second-rate. Comparing the bottom dung-like JD/CR reliability ratings of MB just makes Acura look like better quality dung.
And show me one single person who buys an Audi because of their stellar reliability and I will show you a living Dodo bird? There is a fellow in the LPS forum that had over 20 or 30 Audis and he claims he would be scared to death to own them beyond warranty. That is not what I would call an endorsement on Audi reliability.
So Acura having better reliablity than MB and Audi translates into nothing much.
I don't see the confliction between the RX and GX. RX is the volume model for those people who like a functionality of a
jacked up wagoncrossover but would probably never take it off the pavement. GX on the other hand is a hardcore, body-on-frame SUV intended for some serious off-roading activities (how many people actually use the GX for that is a totally different story...). The RX/GX pair serves the same purpose in the Lexus lineup as the Highlander/4Runner does in Toyota.I have to agree that a RWD ES would make the GS (at least the current version) totally irrelevant. Even the idea of ES being the comfortable one and GS being the performance one doesn't sound all that hot to me. I would much rather keep the ES the same as a glorified Camry and make the GS as a closer E/5er fighter. Usually people who opt for the ES won't care if its FWD or RWD anyway.
I can't.
But I can show you a lot of people who didn't buy an Audi due to its not so stellar reliability. Just because I (and most the people here) would overlook the reliability factor while shopping for a luxury car doesn't mean that most of the buying public would.
So Acura having better reliability than MB and Audi translates into nothing much.
Uh, not really...
If I am fighting 2 guys for 100 million dollars it doesn't matter if they are Hulk Hogan or David Spade, as long as I come up on top that's what it counts.
Exactly right. I never ever look at reliability stats before buying a car because then I know I will end up buying a car that I really dont want.
It's just mere coincidene that my BMW335i reliability ratings are pretty good. My 98 BMW 323i was less problematical in its first year than my 335i despite the fact that my 98 model had sub-par CR ratings.
Well CR also rated the RL way better than any dung like BMW, :lemon: including the 3 series, 5 series, and 7 series. These were all near the bottom with some models even below the dung like MB. Sorry. :P
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Hasn't the RL been classified a dud in sales and reliability by many publications, including that L-Fans fav, CR?
Hasn't been proven by those same classifications state that the A6 is more reliable than the GS and RL?
The GS 6 cyl rwd is in 8th place with a rating of +35.
The RL is in 5th place with a rating of +40.
The Audi A6 is in 9th place with a rating of +20
Here is what is really funny. The much maligned GS awd is rated pretty bad at a rating of -20 and 17th place and the BMW 5 series AWD is in 22nd place with a rating of -50. :lemon:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2. Both the RL and the TL are faster 0 to 60 and the quarter mile than the A4 and A6.
3. The RL and the TL are rated much more reliable than Audi A4/A6, BMW, MB and many others.
The TSX being an "upscale car" is stretching the definition of upscale. I don't think a Euro Accord with an Acura badge tacked on is upscale.
RL and TL are faster than which A4 and which A6? I would expect the 290hp, 3.5L RL to be able to outrun a basic 3.1L A6. The fact that it can just barely beat the basic A6 shows Acura, as usual, can't make engines with enough torque, and of course they have no idea what a "sixth" gear is, which also hurts their car's acceleration. The A6 4.2 will handily beat an RL. The RL V8 of course doesn't exist. The S6 will destroy an RL, and well you know what would happen with the RS6.
It's much the same with the A4. Since Audi doesn't have the TL's nasty torque steer to worry about, they are free to turn up the heat all the way to 414.
The RL has gotten fairly reliable - after a few years on the market. The initial '05s were really bad, and even had their fancy AWD systems lock up on occasion. C&D's long termer was a reliability dud. The RL, the A6, and the 5 are all CR recommended cars. Two of the three have decent interior design, space, and materials, are fun to drive, and are more exciting to look at than a wet carrot.
Automobile Journalists Association of Canada (AJAC) 2007 Award
Best new small car: Saturn Astra
Best new family car: Honda Accord EX Sedan
Best new luxury car: Mercedes-Benz C Class
Best new prestige car: (over $75,000): Audi R8
Best new sports/performance car under $50,000: MINI Cooper S
Best new sports/performance car over $50,000: Audi S5
Best new convertible: BMW 335i Cabriolet
Best new minivan: Hyundai Entourage
Best new pickup truck: Chevrolet Silverado
Best new SUV/CUV under $35,000: Nissan Rogue
Best new SUV/CUV $35,000 - $60,000: Saturn Vue
Best new SUV/CUV over $60,000: Buick Enclave
2. The 4.2 in the A6 is a V8, no? I don't think it takes a rocket scientist (even though I am one) to figure out that houdini was comparing V6 A6 to the RL since RL only comes in 1 variant.
3. The Front trac A4 and A6 would get the equally nasty torque steer as the TL so that's a wash. Why currently there is no AWD TL? Because Acura debut the SH-AWD after the current gen TL arrived in dealerships.
4. I'll take TL and RL's interior and exterior design over the A4 and A6 any day of the week. Material quality is another matter all by itself, if Acura can wise up and replace the fake woods with real ones then that'll be a wash in my book as well.
They don't, but Zhonghua is doing the assembly in CHina for the 320, 325, 523, 525 and 530 (in short and long version) allowing those models to be much cheaper than if fully imported.
Chery just went the easy way and did not even bother to hide their copy which was as close as a fake bank note could be to a real one. Eventually, it is Chevrolet who had to redesign their spark first to widen the gap again. The new QQ has been redesigned, so it is irrelevant now. Just too shameless.
I do get your point, though.
OTOH, South Park makes more fun of Candians than anyone, and I know for a fact that it's all taken for what it is -- good fun.
L6 naturally. I guess I was dreaming about a V8 turbo. Maybe if Alpina steps in..
We don't want to give the wrong impressions to lurkers and passers-by; that's my point. There are many more of dem then there are of youse.
:P
Check post# 8584 then you'll understand.
That being said, if I offended anyone I apologize.
Seems like we just need to move on, eh?
I'd definitely rather have a B5 than an M5. The Alpina has a proper transmission in it.
Malcolm Bricklin went to high school in orlando! If you ever shake hands with him count your fingers afterward.
This site has been a national learning experience for me.
All this time I thought Malcolm Bricklin was a fellow Canadian and now I find out he is an American who is a threat to my fingers.
The M5 does come with a manual tranny, and only in state side!
:surprise:
Right, and apparently they've figured out a way to make it that way without the car going into nanny-shutdown mode as well. I'd still rather have the B5 though. In that kind of car I don't really want to have to deal with a stick. MTs are for weekend toys. A four-door execu-rocket for me would be a daily driver, so I'd want either an autobox or a DSG. Something that has a "stuck behind a Buick Century" mode.
Yeah, but they don't sell very well. I know two dealers here in the Houston market with '08 M5s w/manuals they will sell at invoice. They told me manuals just don't sell as well. What does that tell you about the majority of people buying M5s, and the 550i as well. That is how I got such a good deal on my 550i. I just can't imagine someone wanting a "M-anything" with a slush box! Maybe this explains why so many M5s and M6s want to run me since I got my 550i. Perhaps the dealers ought to require an IQ test before they sell a M. :shades: