By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
That pretty much goes against everything I like in a car... :P
No wonder I was never fond of the Lexus brand before they introduced the L-finesse design philosophy. I can say this much, if the old design is back then Lexus can bet their bacons that they'll lose me as a customer.
Same here.
I hope so...
I really don't think LS is a problem for Lexus but the GS is. A big one as matter of fact...
I agree
If , indeed, it is an internal fog light, then one is brighter than the other!
And that doesn't even include the hardcore Z-tune model due soon that will be lighter, even more focused, and more powerful. The Corvette used to be the ultimate bargain super car, but I think the GT-R definitely now has that title, and it achieved it without the use of leaf springs or cheap, OHV power.
The new LS is a perfect example. Great technology, good stats on paper but get behind the wheel and ...snore...yawn...snooze.
It seems as if Lexus is confused as to what they want to be when they grow up. I see a inconsistant motorsports commitment albeit with some success, but without more visibility and carryover to great performing cars they will never be the enthusiasts first choice. If they want to maintain the niche that they have successfully carved out as a less expensive Benz alternative or the "new Caddy", then they need to keep their prices in check as they have creeped pretty close to levels which give potential customers other options.
I'm not so sure about that. I don't think that the RX is the all conquering behemoth in the marketplace that it used to be. I think many potential RX customers could be swayed by the Q5, next X3, GLK, or XC60, all competitors that didn't exist when the current RX was introduced, especially if the new RX is basically more of the same, a boring ES wagon.
A Lexus Prius though could be interesting.
I have my doubts about that. A GS buyer is somebody who says I don't want the BMW, or the Audi, or the Infiniti. I might buy the Mercedes if the quality wasn't so bad, but I certainly don't want anything "sporty". If Lexus turns the next GS into an M45 Sport, I think they'll lose as many buyers as they gain. Why not let BMW, Audi, and Infiniti cater to enthusiast part of the mid-lux market, and build a better E-class than Mercedes? One of the biggest problems Lexus has is they often don't know what kind of car company they want to be. I don't think you can out sport BMW and out lux Mercedes at the same time. You have to focus on one or the other. Infiniti has clearly picked what side they want to be on, and frankly I don't think Lexus can beat them at it.
It will be interesting to see what happens to GS sales in the next couple of years. Traditionally the GS does acceptably well for its first 2 years on the market, and then flat-lines.
Their cars have been "boring" since the brand debuted back in 1990. So based on that I don't think that's even one of the reasons...
There is no other explanations, they have an aging lineup on their hands this year and there is nothing they can do about it.
In case you have forgot, even with the declining trend, the "ancient" RX currently is still the number 1 selling luxury crossover in this country. Based on alone that I would think the new RX will give Lexus a huge boost and continue to be the sales leader.
Oh yeah and, there are A LOT of people outside this board who are into a boring, jacked up ES wagon...
That's where the RWD ES chips in. It will have a softer tuned suspension than the sportier GS so it can take over the current ES and GS owners who are looking for a quiet and comfortable midsize luxury sedan.
Traditionally the GS does acceptably well for its first 2 years on the market, and then flat-lines.
The current GS sales has been fairly flat since its introduction so the best Lexus could hope for is to keep its current numbers.
Lexus doesn't need to out-BMW BMW with the new GS but they do indeed need a worthy fighter in this segment performance wise. The current GS is just too mediocre in every area but not good in any.
Regards,
OW
I haven't forgotten. My point was that there may not be an automatic massive IS style sales boost when the new model is released. When the new ES was released, sales weren't really much above the old model's. The RX has a lot more competition now than just the ML, X5, MDX and XC90.
That I definitely agree with, I just don't think Lexus should go directly after 5 and M buyers. I think the E-class is a much better target. For reasons I fail to understand, the E is sometimes still the segment leader in sales, despite its age, bad reputation, and obsolete electronics. Clearly something about it is resonating with buyers, and Lexus should figure out exactly what that is and use it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I am not missing. I have been in jail. NO! I haven’t!
That said, I owe all of you this 135i review. I promised it to you, and I will keep my word. I appreciated reading Clembo’s likes and dislikes about his 335i. It’s a great car and I wish him lots of enjoyable miles behind the wheel. I completely understand his choice of the convertible.
I have driven BMW’s 135i Coupe for about a month and 1,000 miles. The 135i has a wonderful, spirited personality, and in spite of its uniqueness and controversial appearance, it is somehow, in its own strange way, one of the most seductive cars I have ever driven or owned, regardless of price. So, here’s the scoop This 135i Coupe is equipped with the 6-speed manual tranny, and most of the available packages and options. The 135i comes standard with the sport-tuned suspension. The car sits on 18” wheels and performance RFTs. The primary options on this “1” include leather interior, navigation, iDrive, premium sound system, comfort access, and park distance control. The rest are not as significant, although the built-in iPod and USB adapter option is one worth mentioning, because it finally integrates the iPhone and iPod directly into the audio system and is controlled with the iDrive controller and visible on the Nav screen.
Once underway in the 135i, it becomes noticeable that this car is fast very fast. The engine’s torque comes on at 1400 RPM and pulls like a freight train without stopping all the way to redline. Second gear breaks the speed limit and there are four to go. This car is a small rocket. The gear shift moves nicely and shifting is so smooth that it is almost artificial, and in fact, a CDV is responsible for this feeling in the clutch that some may wish was more sudden and direct. It is obvious that BMW wanted to make this car easy to shift, and they have achieved that. Even on an uphill, the car automatically brakes itself for a few seconds so the car won’t roll back when working the clutch nice touch.
Steering is very smooth and precise, but while so many praise the steering, the ratio is a tad too slow for my taste, and I believe that the wheel must be turned a little too far. Obviously BMW had an eye on safety here by not making the steering overly responsive, but for guys like me, there is a solution Active Steering. While this car unfortunately doesn’t have it, Active Steering is an option for those that want a faster steering ratio.
Back to the engine ah yes, BMW’s award-winning twin-turbo inline six. This engine is fantastic. 300 HP and 300 lb-ft of torque! There is absolutely no turbo lag whatsoever and, frankly, it feels as if there are no turbos at all. Just tons of power readily available across the entire band. I have no doubt that this car comes in at a 0-60 time of 4.7 seconds, as Car & Driver and others have reported . not far behind the M3! Smooth as silk, and a wonderful exhaust note that really sounds terrific, without being offensive at all.
Handling is very good, but there is a bit too much body roll, and it is obvious again that BMW has placed certain limits on what this car will do otherwise the lowly 1er would eclipse the mighty M3. There are suspension mods for addressing this. In addition, the car stays so firmly planted that it is almost on the difficult side to get the rear to break loose. A little surprising for this rear-wheel drive car. The stability of the 135i is amazing. Of course, the stability software can be turned off, for those moments when the driver wants to get a little on the daring side of driving, or more appropriately for the track. Also, the performance RFTs do an amazing job of grip, even on wet surfaces.
The brakes on the BMW 135i are spectacular. Few brake systems feel as good and perform as well. Period. The endless brake dust, however, is a nasty consequence. If you buy this car, stock up on wheel cleaner, cause you’ll need it. Worth it though, considering the level of stopping power that BMW gives the 135i.
Inside the cabin, the amenities are all there, but the appearance is simple and businesslike. Not much extra bling and fluff. Materials and workmanship are very good, and the choices for leathers, woods, metals, and carbon fiber are more than adequate. The start button is surrounded by engraved words “Year one of the 1”. The iDrive interface is a bit nerve rattling at first, but it actually begins to make a lot of sense after a while. In fact, to shortcut many of the functions, BMW has provided a bank of “memory” buttons that can be set to do a whole host of functions with just one press of the button. For example, to shortcut the i-Drive system and tune directly to a specific radio or satellite station, the memory button can be set for that purpose. The memory buttons can even be set to select navigation destinations, so that no navigation setup is required. Just push the button and the entire script is loaded and ready and the chosen destination guidance is on the screen, which is motorized, as it flips open and closed as instructed. There is voice command for the integrated Bluetooth telephone system, as well as the climate control, which is a dual system for the driver and the passenger, providing each with their own settings. The premium (Logic 7) audio system option is very good, but still not the very best out there. All the other little “luxury” niceties are equipped on this car rain-sensing wipers, headlight washers, auto lighting, keyless entry and ignition, built-in remote home-link, etc., etc.
One surprise is the level of quiet inside the cabin. The road is quiet and is not harsh, as I would have been expected with the sport suspension. It’s a nice surprise actually, as the power seats with power-adjustable lumbar support are very comfy, and the ride is smooth.
The rear seat is adequate, but just barely. I had no problem with my wife up front and two kids in the rear, but I would not suggest that four large adults take this car on a lengthy road trip without making pit stops to stretch out. The trunk space is a surprise, as there is much more room in there than I would have first imagined. In addition, the rear seats fold down with a 60/40 split, and that makes for very good additional cargo capacity. ............
.......... end of part 1... continue to part 2
All in all, the BMW 135i is a surprisingly comfortable and fun-to-drive car that offers an almost unbelievable and practically ridiculous amount of excitement and enjoyment behind the wheel. The combination of the twin-turbo six, and the sport-tuned suspension, with its huge brakes, nice exhaust note, suspension dynamics, precise handling and great road grip make this car one of the most enjoyable and fun-to-drive cars that I have ever experienced. To illustrate this point, as much as I love my Carrera S Cab I am quite often willing to park it in order to drive the BMW 135i.
Now, there is a little more to this story. On a personal note, I have been terribly frustrated about not being able to put the top down on my 135i Coupe. It originally seemed quite logical to me that my one convertible (Porsche) would take away the desire to have the 135i as a convertible. That logic has turned out to be meaningless, as there is no logic here anyway. I continue to want to put the top down on this 135i, and that’s all there is to it. Our weather here is truly spectacular most of the year, and just I love driving a convertible. Period. So I have contacted my BMW dealer and explained this, and the management has ironed out a suitable arrangement for me to trade in my 135i Coupe on a 135i Convertible. In spite of what some might want to make of this, I feel no shame or embarrassment whatsoever for being true to myself on this and ordering the convertible. (I’m quite sure Clembo understands!) And, oh yes, I learned a little lesson with the Coupe and the convertible has been ordered with the Active Steering.
Lastly, I’ll address the question of why this car should exist next to the 3-Series. The evolution of the 3-Series has caused it to get bigger and bigger, as well as more elaborate and sophisticated. So big and sophisticated that there is now a gaping hole in the lineup for a smaller model. The 3-Series is a phenomenal car, and is perfect for someone wanting a sophisticated good-looking, good-handling vehicle of that size and stature. There is always the argument that a fully-loaded 1-Series is so expensive that one should buy a base 3-Series. But that’s not a new argument. Load up a 3-Series, and then one might consider a base 5-Series. But that reasoning is faulty because it suggests that someone doesn’t specifically want the car they are actually considering in the first place.
Then there is the argument about weight. What’s the point? The 135i Coupe gets from 0 to 60 in 4.7 seconds. Is that not fast enough? And, BMW will answer the weight concern for those diehards that need even more spectacular performance from a small vehicle there will be a performance 1-Series in the future possibly 2011 when the 1-Series will likely undergo a change. The 1-Series doesn’t need to justify its existence. The latest scope of the 3-Series makes it obvious. It reminds me of the way the Honda Civic evolved to the point of no longer being the smallest car in the Honda lineup. While the BMWs and Honda cars don’t directly compare, the example is appropriate. In addition, for those that understand the trends in the automobile industry and the automotive marketplace, smaller cars are absolutely going to continue to be more and more popular with the American public.
The BMW 1-Series is a gift that comes at the right time. Counterpoint, however, is that the 135i is simply too much fun and not enough value or practicality. That, of course, depends upon one’s point of view. Me? I’m hooked on the 1.
Regards to all,
TagMan
I agree with you that there is no need to attack poster's personal opinions on cars or whatever (provided these are not offensive). I believe each poster can nicely post his/her personal opinion just for the pleasure of sharing it but not for purposely attacking other's. Every possible opinion is biased to some extent—how could it not be ? Other posters which do not share that particular opinion are free to post theirs. That will keep the forum fair, balanced and enjoyable to ourselves in the first place, and then to any reader. If only, every poster should keep him/herself restrained in order to not offend the antagonists. (That said, a bit of sparky provocation from time to time may well keep the discussion alive!!!)
Regards,
Jose
PS: 'There is not Justice but judges'
I also fully understand why you are getting the Cab version, there is something about driving with the top down on a beautiful day (or night) that is hard to pass up, especially in a great car. I get your theory that the 997 was supposed to play that role but why not have as many options as you can, I own 2 convertibles as well. If I didn't use may Cayman as a weekend car in Porsche Club Autocross and Track Days, it would be a convertible as well.
Now on to your point about the need to be "fair and balanced' in our opinions on the board. I don't buy into that, most posters here have strong opinions (or even bias) about what they like best. We have had a few dust ups that maybe went too far but for the most part I believe our individual thoughts, ideas, and passions are what makes this board interesting to read on a daily basis. I hope you continue to contribute your comments to the board as things have gotten a bit dull during your absence.
I posted an article a few days ago that BMW financial took a 200+ mil hit in the first quarter due to lowered resale values of its leased vehicles. So perhaps, car companies showed their trouble in different ways in tough economic times.
I don't have any issue with what Lexus is doing with its line up of cars, except for those quality bombs we heard about in the current GS. I find it unacceptable to hear any type of excuses from a company that built its reputation on high quality standards.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Have you driven the 1 series with active steering? If so, how do they differ?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Agree completely on the weight assessment and see the side of the purists but it is a mute point to me because of the level of performance DESPITE the weight that has been achieved.
Now all that is left for me is to drive a 1'er and make my choice! Easy.
Thanks and keep those posts coming.
Regards,
OW
As far as reliability, the GS hybrid is rated #1 in reliability by CR. My only problem with the GS is that I feel it is over priced.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The luxury-car pacesetter reported April sales that were about flat and has posted a 1 percent sales increase for the year to date, 77,918 units versus 76,880 through the first four months of 2007.
C-Class models posted a 34 percent gain for April and a 38 percent jump for the year to date. Mercedes-Benz also bucked trends and posted increases for its SUVs, both the M-Class and GL-Class models.
AUDI
U.S. sales for Audi in April were 7,730 units, a decrease of about 5 percent from year-earlier sales of 8,106 units.
The company said that luxury-car buyers “considered the tightening economy and rising gas price as they shopped.”
For the year, Audi sales overall are down about 3 percent. Its A4/S4/RS 4 series of small cars posted a 10 percent sales increase in April and is up 7 percent for the year, while its A6/S6 series is up 5 percent for the year. But the Q7 SUV has posted 33 percent fewer sales for the year to date.
BMW
The highest-volume luxury-car seller in the U.S. market managed to generate an increase of nearly 10 percent in April sales of its BMW and Mini brands, to 31,448 units. For the year, however, BMW Group sales are still down 4 percent.
The company said that a raft of new products launched this spring – BMW M3, X6 and 1 Series, and the Mini Clubman – helped its April results.
BMW has increased it's pace of new offerings and the interest I noticed at the NYIAS was high at Merc, BMW, Jag and Audi. Lexus, Acura were much quieter in comparison. Just a snapshot view, I know.
Regards,
OW
What I don't understand is why some folks insist upon telling someone how wrong they are about a personal decision. And offense is taken when the party of the first part insists that they made the right decision for the right reasons. "Forget Saddam Hussein! You drive a FWD 'Sports Sedan!!!' You are an absolute monster!!! Is there no greater crime against humanity than FWD!!!" And, yes, I know someone will post that there is no greater crime...
It is just fab to read folks review their cars here. Or cars that they considered but didn't buy. But, you are not them, they are not you and I am the walrus! So, opine but judge ye not!
And, for the record, IMO the greatest crime against humanity is being a Yankees fan. Or maybe thinking the movie St. Elmo's Fire was worth the celluloid it was printed on... :shades:
Welcome back, Tag. I will continue to live in an envious shadow of your (and most of the posters here) garage...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It was nice to read your report , both parts one and two....Further it was nice to know you were o k ...This happened to me back in the late ninties when Merc1 was doing his thing....He abruptly stopped posting and I really though he may have had an auto accident and got killed.....I went way back and found his e mail address and found out he was ok, so all was alright...Tony
Indeed. Making a lightweight car with a big V8 at the front and RWD at the back have good performance really isn't terribly difficult, though it took Chevy until the '97 C5 to produce a Vette that could properly handle a corner. The GT-R isn't a lightweight car. It shouldn't decimate the likes of Ferrari and Porsche, but it does. That's down to brilliant engineering, which has always been a GT-R hallmark.
Which is only relevant information if you are buying the hybrid. As I've said on many occasions, the hybrid version is not indicative of the quality of the regular GS versions, especially the AWD version. Even if the GS450h is simultaneously declared the most reliable car in the history of the automobile by every journalist on the planet, that still doesn't get around the fact that Lexus can't produce a reliable GS AWD, or any other GS that isn't specially hand built like the hybrid. The quality (according to CR) actually went down for 2007. The Infiniti M35x is likely to be much more reliable than the GS350 AWD, as is, shockingly, the Audi A6.
I thought so. That is why I posted it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Well than that begs the question, why would you want a GS? Not only is it not particularly good at anything, but its quality is also lousy, and in your opinion, its over priced. But other than that its fantastic? Has your wife driven the M, A6, or XF, and compared?
I like that kind of response, but clearly not for everyone.
TM
I simply think, after driving one for two weeks that the GS is a pretty good car. I did not buy one but I might in the future. Go out and drive one for yourself.
I also like Acuras.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Perhaps they've been able to improve the feel as of late. The last time I tried a BMW with AS was in the 5 a few years ago.
I don't know anymore to agree with you or not. No matter how much I tried to convince myself that I like lexus and hoping that they take a big step to improve the RX.
But I still think I like bmw better but then again bmws are very costly to repair if something goes wrong.
I always hear that bmws i drive is complicated japanese controls are always better and easy to.
And I prefer japanese or germany built car which bmw SUVs are not.
Clearly we do. Still, if you haven't spent some time with an M, A6, or XF, I would highly recommend trying them before making a move on the GS. I drove both the V6 and V8 GS versions when my Lexus shop had testers available. I didn't like the V8 at all. The combination of VGRS steering and the VDIM stability nanny made the car just a complete bore, not much more than a RWD ES. The V6 seemed a little lighter on its feet and more agile, and the more basic traction control was a lot less intrusive. The 245hp just wasn't enough though (the 350 has mitigated this last issue). Aside from the lacking dynamics, I found the interior to be somewhat bland and cramped, and the trunk too small.
The ES may not be my kind of car, but it's very well executed for the type of buyer that would consider one. The GS to me just doesn't seem well executed for any type of buyer. It's confused about what kind of car it wants to be. The E-class and even the Volvo S80 are more spacious and comfortable, and the A6 and M are much more dynamic and exciting. The XF, though I still haven't gotten a chance to drive it, seems to be a nice balance between sport and comfort. If that's what Lexus was going for this time, they blew it.
still the number 1 selling luxury crossover in this country :surprise:
:confuse: Edmunds is the only publication that has compared the IS-F and RS4 directly, sans M3/C63. Are you just saying what you're saying because you favor the IS-F?
The RS4 is no faster than the IS-F. But the IS-F isn't faster either. They're definitely on even ground. Do you know the IS-F's fastest 0-60mph time offhand? The RS4's is 4.2 sec. But at that point, it's splitting hairs anyway.
Yes, all 4 cars are comparable in performance and it's hard to pick a less performer in this group. However, just going with R&T's non-subjective performance data, RS4 is simply outperformed by the others, including the IS F.
Lexus fans always seem to think that when Lexuses aren't picked as the best, the article simply must be biased...
Even if that is true, it's not hard to take, seeing as the RS4 has been discontinued and it's based on a last-generation platform, as opposed to the others, whose platforms were introduced at least since 2005. I just want to know what the next RS4 will bring; with its lower overall weight, superior distribution and more neutral handling, B8 MLP promises much in the way of performance variants.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
But who in their right mind would want a bare-bones M3? Just like all M3s before it, it's standard with nothing. Your neighbor's daughter, with her $300/mo leased 328i, would probably have more features in hers.
Sure, a loaded 335xi can easily have a MSRP over $50k but with a little negotiation one can easily have a loaded 335i for around $45k.
1. I don't think so.
2. If that is true, how does it not apply to a similarly-priced S4?
Sounds like you're still an Audi hater :sick:
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
You're probably right.
Given that the next ES will be moving to its own platform (no longer sharing with the Camry) Lexus can finally be more aggressively with the GS.
What has been stopping them since then? There is no model overlap; what does the Camry platform have to do with anything?
Both the ES and GS will be midsize RWD (also AWD for GS)
BIG no-no. If anything, it's the ES that should have AWD. A RWD ES will alienate all the people that have bought it over, and over, and over in the past. They buy their cars for the comfort and safety, not for the driving experience. Also, a RWD ES would serve no purpose in the lineup; IS and GS have the RWD markets covered and there is no room for one in between.
I agree with you about the LS. It looks like a true upscale sedan now, especially with the hybrid's wheels. If it came with AWD, I would definitely consider it. :surprise:
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Thanks much for the comprehensive review. I hung onto every last word, of course. Sounds like a fantastic vehicle; now I'm beginning to imagine getting that as my next convertible instead of something more grandiose like your Porsche or a Jag. Good mileage, fantastic performance, somewhat useful rear seats (more useful than the 911 and XK, at least), reasonable price.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ee9e503?displayRecent
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet