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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The check control function can be accesses on board. Oil level is one of the checks you can do as well as many other systems that have electronic sensors that translate the condition data.

    When things go amiss, I just bring it in....and drive a loaner away until it's fixed. No cost to me as I paid up front for the warranty and free maintenance!

    Regards,
    OW
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Hi all,

    Here I enclose the link to the web site of a small but appealing RR and other classic-car museum.

    http://www.torreloizaga.com/

    You may use your Spanish ;) to translate the short picture legends. Yet the pictures are auto explanatory.

    The museum is in Concejuelo Castle, which is located in Torre de Loizaga, which is a village a couple of dozen miles away from my home. If you wish to see more the village and landscape, you may go to 'Google maps' web site and write 'torre de loizaga, vizcaya' in the searcher. When the map pops up, you should press the 'A' blob on the left side: 'Torre de Loizaga (Concejuelo) desde el monte UBIETA-ZIPAR'. I hope you will enjoy the visit!

    Regards,
    Jose
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    As a luxury car mid size is the 5 series 1 of the best cars???
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    But I do remember the trouble that (tmjdds) with his bmws which car does he own now?

    He always said this about bmw Big Money Wasted!
  • tx_buzzardtx_buzzard Member Posts: 130
    OK, OK.... gee can't I reply with a little sarcasm? ;) But thanks for offering to assist me with the purchase nevertheless. Oh, how about a loan? :)
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Sure it is in my opinion. Luxury is not only in sofas.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    As a luxury car mid size is the 5 series 1 of the best cars???

    That all depends on what you are looking for in a luxury car and what your priorities are. Is the 5 the highest performance luxury car in its class? Yes. Is it the most luxurious car in its class? No. If you value performance and handling above all else and are looking for something in the mid-lux range, the 5 is your car. If, on the other hand you're looking for a more balanced package, consider the A6, M, or XF (my favorites).
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Thanks----I used some of my Spanish, but the words I know didn`t fit...I did associate fotos with photos :) Those cars were for an era long gone--such dignity--I keep reading about the housed being torn down even after a person has owned them for thirty years....Just what does socialism mean in Spain?? I can understand re claiming something that is recently built, and even something that is say five years old, but after thirty years seems like some sort of possession (adverse) would kick in....Strange even with a permit? Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    But thanks for offering to assist me with the purchase nevertheless.

    LOL.. I know you are a good sport and have a good sense of humor, so I realized there was no risk by having some fun with you. Thanks for proving this to be true.

    It would be an interesting lifestyle to be able to collect cars, that's for sure. But even if I ever was in a position to do that, I'd have to keep the cars for a long time, and God knows I'd have a hard time doing THAT!... ;)

    Take care.

    TM
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,208
    Tag, you do collect cars! You just rotate the stock somewhat rapidly... ;)

    I collect bills/invoices. I rotate them pretty rapidly, too... :sick:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Tony,

    …Just what does socialism mean in Spain?

    Mmm, less than in Scandinavia and about the same as UK Labour Party in Britain (may be 0.5ºC more); there is no collectivism over here ;)

    I keep reading about the housed being torn down even after a person has owned them for thirty years

    It is not only the Spanish Government acting by itself but also under the pressure of European Parliament Bills and European Gov. Decrees to protect the littoral from speculative/excessive building.

    But I do not know of any private house being torn down after being lived for so many years (or after much lesser time) though I can be ignorant of it. There is a massive hotel which never was inhabited that after so many years of litigation has eventually been torn down. Send me a note with the news or the source to jlbl@carspace.com and I'll try to get more information, if you wish me to do so.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    :rolls eyes:

    The A4 3.2 was meant to compete with the Euro-spec BMW 330i. Yes, they still sell it there.

    I don't particularly care for the 3.2L engine either but it does have a purpose. I just don't understand why they haven't gone the BMW route and given the US-spec A4 a more powerful engine as standard; this is more true than ever with the torquey, lightweight 2.0T, upcoming 3.0S S4 and the possible A4 3.0TDI.

    '08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    OTHER WINNERS:

    Green Engine of the Year - Toyota Prius 1.5L Hybrid

    Performance Engine of the Year - Porsche 3.6L Turbo (911 Turbo, GT2)

    Sub-1L - Toyota 1.0L

    1.0-1.4L - VW 1.4 TSI Twincharger

    1.4-1.8L - BMW-PSA 1.6L Turbo

    1.8L-2.0L - VW/Audi 2.0L Turbo FSI

    2.0L-2.5L - Subaru 2.5L Turbo

    2.5L-3.0L - BMW 3.0L Twin-turbo

    3.0L-4.0L - BMW 4.0L V8

    4.0L+ - BMW 5.0L V10

    A dizzying number of wins for BMW. :sick:

    '08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I don't particularly care for the 3.2L engine either but it does have a purpose. I just don't understand why they haven't gone the BMW route and given the US-spec A4 a more powerful engine as standard; this is more true than ever with the torquey, lightweight 2.0T, upcoming 3.0S S4 and the possible A4 3.0TDI.

    I never understood what was wrong with the old 2.7T. The old A6 S-line powered by that engine could actually outrun the V8, with 0-60 in the low 6s and fuel economy comparable to other NA V6s. The A6 3.2 needs over 7 seconds to do the same job, and fuel economy is no better than the old turbo. Given that the 2.7T produced 265hp and 280ft.lbs of torque on its way out the door, why not update it with FSI for even more power instead of dropping it for a weak 3.2?
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Don't disagree that the A6, M and XF (still to pass the trials of ownership over time, IMO) are terrific cars. I value the real comfort in the 5-Series Sport/Comfort seats... which provides the balance most important to me ;-)

    Have yet to find better seats in a sport sedan-sized car short of an S-Class, 7 or LS to handle my frame (6'4" & 250)!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Great thoughts all around and a fascinating subject. I moved some posts - let's continue here: pat, "Health Care Perspectives" #1, 9 May 2008 6:11 pm.

    :)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I'm sure we've had this conversation before. The free ride of the BMW lease is for the most part over. BMW has adjusted the residuals by as much as 5 points lower, to more accurately reflect real world resale values.

    I hate it as my wife and I are both getting new cars this year. We new it wouldn't last forever.
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    hate it as my wife and I are both getting new cars this year

    What are your choices
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    I think it was because most people experienced issues with that engine. I didn't, I had one (loved it), and I was just as confused as you when they dropped it, but that's what I've heard.

    I was very disappointed when I drove the new-for-2005 A6 4.2, because it felt boring compared to my outgoing 2.7T. I'm glad I went with the S4.

    '08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I think it was because most people experienced issues with that engine. I didn't, I had one (loved it), and I was just as confused as you when they dropped it, but that's what I've heard.

    Interesting. I know the old 1.8Ts were infamous for things like ignition coils, but I didn't think the A6 2.7T was really any worse than the 2.8/3.0, which weren't all that reliable either.
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    Last I remember he test drove the new LX and was going to test RR sport.
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    Check the M-B reviews on Newcartestdrive.com. On page 4 of all their reviews, they list the town and country where every car they test is built.

    Camrys are also built in australia and japan but it says

    Assembled in: Georgetown, Kentucky
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    Volkswagen currently builds the bodies for the Porsche Cayenne SUVs alongside its Touareg and Audi’s Q7 at its Slovakia plant in Bratislava.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    bikini?

    Do you mean blkhemi?

    LOL.

    '08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    bikini?

    WTF? :confuse:

    And it's not just Blkhemi...

    One of this forum's distinguished posters, Dewey, hasn't posted a single comment for about two weeks now... in case anyone hasn't noticed! :surprise:

    At this rate, esf, the forum will be left to just a handful of posters that can freely bash BMW and argue the virtues of Audi vs. Lexus... LOL... if you get my meaning. ;)

    Hope your cars are doing great!! Anyway, time to go to the other website forum now. See ya sometime later, my friend... maybe.

    TM
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here is a comparo to consider if you've got $70 LARGE to burn. I will choose the XF from the sheer looks alone! The performance formula is quite impressive for it's captivating style, IMO...no match for the older designs of the Germans.

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Hmmm...that XF looks a lot like the Lexus GS to me...I like it. Obviously it has a bigger engine and is faster. I'm just talking looks here.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Wow, you're right, nobody is posting... WTF is right.

    Somebody post something interesting before this forum starves and collapses into itself like a supernova.

    We used to always be at the top of the "most commented" section... now, we're not even on the list! :sick:

    How's the 1?

    '08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,208
    I've only skimmed AutoWeek and C & D's long term wrap-ups of their respective long term Jag XKs. Both appear to mention a bit of the ol' Prince of Darkness, Lucas-type electrical gremlins. A bit discouraging. I believe one or two of the folks here have XKs, care to comment?

    I imagine the posting here has slowed down as sometimes life simply gets a bit busy, e.g. Evil Wife was in Germany last week on business while daughter fractured her ankle playing softball. Son had assorted sports so yours truly juggled work, taxi-service, Dr. appts, cook and bottle washing duties, etc. The reviews are in, I done good!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Hmmm...that XF looks a lot like the Lexus GS to me...I like it. Obviously it has a bigger engine and is faster. I'm just talking looks here.

    The front of the XF to me seems like the result of an affair between the GS and Volvo S80, and is definitely the least impressive part of the design. The Aston inspired cues from the rear are much better. I think they should've stayed closer to the original concept cues on the front. The XF is a very impressive effort though, especially from such a cash starved company.

    image
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I've only skimmed AutoWeek and C & D's long term wrap-ups of their respective long term Jag XKs. Both appear to mention a bit of the ol' Prince of Darkness, Lucas-type electrical gremlins. A bit discouraging. I believe one or two of the folks here have XKs, care to comment?

    I noticed that as well in C&D's long term test car. For the record, my XK has been absolutely 100%. It didn't seem like C&D's issues we really that terrible, especially for an early model cycle Jaguar. Their long term RL was much worse if I remember correctly, but Jag is an easy target. I had many more issues than they did with my two previous gen XKs and especially my XJ-S, and in general surveys like Top Gear's seem to indicate that new Jags are pretty good, and at the very least no more of a risk than a new Audi or BMW.
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    The front of the XF to me seems like the result of an affair between the GS and Volvo S80, and is definitely the least impressive part of the design.

    I fully agree with that. The central front part recalls me this emotocom: :surprise: The rest of the car is much more good looking to me. I have only seen her in pictures however.

    XK exterior & interior styles, gas engines and handling are receiving good criticism from the Spanish specialized magazines. On the contrary, diesel engines are said not be as good as those of the competitors, when prices and performance are compared.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Compared to BMW 550i, Merc E550 and Audi A6, The XF is the Best Babe on the Block!

    Time to massage some steel in Germany! The Jags have it for me in the ultra sedan-class!

    This car is close to stunning...that would be the XK-R and The BMW CS!!!

    image

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    The RL has always been recommended and rated at or near the top in reliability by CR. Sure can't say that about Jag.

    The long term C&D on the RL that you mentioned was a first year 2005 model. All very minor glitches, etc. Overall it was one of their favorites, especially for long trips.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Maybe Dewey is in a state of depresion [as am I] about BMW's falling residuals.

    I work to much to post all the time anymore. I'm still here though.......
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,208
    Thanks. I attribute some of the issues noted to early, first model year build, too. But two different mags, two different XK (one XKR), similar gremlins... I remember what an (uncharacteristic!) mess the long term C & D RL was, too. But they did still like it, IIRC.

    My TL continues to be just lovely. With just a few more scratches from this winter... :sick:

    My XK dreams may have taken a step back, the Evil (yet absolutely lovely) Wife is having a tough time at work, new regime. She's been there just shy of 20 years, but may be just about ready to walk away from it all...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    She's been there just shy of 20 years, but may be just about ready to walk away from it all...

    In today's business climate that is probably what they want her to do. Especially if she is a long time loyal employee. Tell her to just smile and wait for a buy out!! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,208
    Plan A is to stay. The buyout is Plan B. But the last few weeks, Plan C (adios, jerks!) seems to be gaining in popularity... I'm rooting for Plan A, as are all the local car dealers! But I think she's been hoping for Plan B for the last few months...

    Darn, I'd hate to lose 80% of our income! :surprise:

    And, of course, there's always Plan 9 From Outer Space!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The long term C&D on the RL that you mentioned was a first year 2005 model. All very minor glitches, etc.

    So was their Jag, wasn't it? Just a small example of some of the RL issues: "Maybe we should have moved in with Mr. Acura, because at just over 33,000 miles, the left rear headrest wouldn't stay up, the power outlets were once again on the blink, the driver's-side washer-fluid nozzle needed realignment, and the navigation system was rebooting itself while in use."

    C&D hit Jag over the head right away because of a few "very minor glitches", and yet the RL which required many more unscheduled service visits got off much more easily. As I said, Jag is an easy target.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I didn't notice that C&D "hit jag over the head" at all. It seemed they rather liked the car. My impression was it stood up pretty well. Only one mechanical failure with the cvc joints. Plus the other minor glitches.

    You also have to remember that the C&D tests only involve one car and that can be a crapshoot. The CR ratings are much more comprehensive involving hundreds of cars, if not thousands, and that is where the RL beat the Jag. The Jag, however, was rated above average by CR.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The CR ratings are much more comprehensive involving hundreds of cars, if not thousands, and that is where the RL beat the Jag.

    Agree, any magazine's long term test shouldn't determine whether a car will be reliable or not. I'm sure we all remember that BMW 3 series from the C&D comparison test that was such a lemon that it was literally undriveable and they had to use test data from an earlier example, and yet it still won the test. That car doesn't mean all 3s are horrible.

    To Acura's credit, they seem to have identified and fixed most of the RL's early issues. The same unfortunately cannot be said for Lexus and the GS AWD.

    Based on my own experience, I would say that buying a new Jag is far less risky than it was 10 or even 5 years ago. Problems can happen with a car from any brand, but reliability should no longer be a reason to not consider a Jag.
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    new Jags are pretty good, and at the very least no more of a risk than a new Audi or BMW

    Risk buying a new Audi or BMW ;)
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,620
    "CR ratings are much more comprehensive involving hundreds of cars, if not thousands. . ."

    I'm probably nearly as tired of repeating this as some of you are of reading it.

    However. . . hundreds/thousands? Please.

    The stupid form CR distributes takes a lot of time to fill out (in a society that seems to feel that it's too much trouble to use a turn signal). It's a seriously self-selected cohort (look it up) -- starts with pinheads (like me) who care only for efficiency (not like me) and goes on from there. The people who respond either: 1) need a hobby, or 2) have an axe to grind. Oh boy.

    Now, let's talk statistics. It's important to know (as you alluded) how big is the sample, as well as what drives the (coveted) solid red circle vs. the (dreaded) solid black one.

    Let's look at a few scenarios:

    1) Solid red equals 90-100% and solid black equals 50-60%, pretty much like the ABCDF scoring system many of us fossils who still read CR grew up with. Solid black means you're driving a POS.

    2) Solid red equals 98-100% and solid black equals 90-92%

    3) Solid red equals 99.5%-100% and solid black equals 97.8% or lower.

    Then there's the number of samples thing. Twenty to thirty is generally accepted as statistically valid -- a hundred would be wonderful & thousands would be better yet. However, given the pain-in-the-[non-permissible content removed] factor of even filling the bloody survey out, I wouldn't be surprised if some less-used vehicles were being judged on some pretty damn small populations, and even the biggest ones may not be all that large.

    Oh, and then there's the "what's a problem?" thing. Some people think a miniscule dot in the finish is a problem and others blow off everything but a failure that leaves the car beside the road, dead. Properly done, "issues" would fall into several categories having to do with cosmetics, failure of a convenience feature or failure of a system that leaves the car immobile, and possibly more.

    Who knows? Who cares? Well, nobody knows, but I certainly (used to) care. I'm sick to death (as if it matters) of the implication that CR numbers mean much of anything at all, unless they disclose their statistical basis. They provide equally obscure stuff in other areas. They most assuredly don't in this particular one. Why?? Because it'd show that cars are so much better than they used to be that most of their dots are beyond useless.

    Sick. . . to. . .death.

    The brain-dead who take CR seriously deserve what they get, and I've gotten it in the past.

    No more.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I don't think anyone here takes CR as the last word, but it is a tool. I take every thing they report with a grain of salt, and like most people I trust my own judgment more than theirs. The more info you have the better chance you have of making a sound judgment.

    As a coincidence I just got a CR survey on line to complete. I have never completed one before or even seen one. I completed the survey on two cars that I own and it took less than 10 minutes. I was surprised it was so simple.

    I think you are way off on your sample numbers. I have an on line subscription to CR but not a hard copy subscription. They hounded me to complete the survey and I assume all their subscribers get the same treatment, but I could be wrong. I got 2 or 3 follow ups to complete the survey, so my guess is that they get thousands of responses.

    Of the 3 scenarios you presented I think #3 is probably the closest because I agree that all cars are much better than they were 10 years ago.

    Out of curiosity, how did you bet burned by CR?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,620
    "Out of curiosity, how did you bet burned by CR?"

    Thanks for asking. Twice, CR highly recommended newly-introduced cars and threw them under the bus a couple of years later. Stupidly, I bought both. First was the Chrysler LH (Eagle, in my case) and second was the Lincoln LS. They couldn't have praised them any more highly at introduction, but when each went down the toilet a year or two later, there wasn't much discussion of their initial reviews.

    Plus which, the numbers really matter. I get the hard-copy survey every year and don't do the on-line thing (for whatever reason). It's a pain, and I can't help but think that the even-more-feeble-than-me folks don't fill it out unless they want to, for whatever reason. I realize that there are maybe 9 people who read CR who have a clue what sample size and truncation have anything to do with, but if the data were available, the car rags would probably translate it for the masses.

    I should live so long.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I got 2 or 3 follow ups to complete the survey, so my guess is that they get thousands of responses.

    Last I checked it was over a million people that responded to the survey. They also won't publish results unless they reach a certain number of responses, (I think its at least 100) which is why many cars have large holes in MY reports, and some aren't mentioned at all, like the A6 4.2 for example. Just not enough people.

    CR bases the better than average red dots and worse than average black dots as a comparison to the "average new car" for a particular model year. It would be lovely if instead they said "4% of 535i owners reported transmission problems" as they have all that data, but they wont. 2008's average new car has gotten pretty reliable, and most new cars have at least average reliability, so the usefulness of CR is rather questionable at this point, at least to new car buyers. I think used car buyers can still get some value out of the survey.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Forget CR...Here's the OW test and let's take the XF as an example.

    As the "Best Looker" (IMHO of course), I like the looks (which attracts you to a car in the first place). Who really cares what any of the rag editors think because they are not buying the car and neither will the tests CR does prove much regarding your pending purchase.

    NEVER BUY THE FIRST RELEASE. PERIOD.

    Then, let the test data and feedback filter in over the years as the REAL TESTERS (The ones with thick skin that had to have it first). AS TAGMAN says, sales figures are not the true guide but the TSB's and frequency of repair will give reliability.

    Then, check the forums...this one was recent regarding SC XF...

    The supercharged XF sold itself when I saw if for the first time. Unfortunately, it might sell itself again if Jaguar doesn’t address the steering vibration. For a still undetermined reason my XF shakes.

    As time goes on, you will get a way better idea of what you can expect from those early adopters....

    It is most noticeable (and visible) in the steering wheel, but can also be felt in my seat as well. My dealer has tried everything they know how to do and it still shakes.

    Jaguar engineers say it’s a high performance car and vibration is to be expected. I say if they’re betting Jaguar’s future on this car, they might want rethink their position.


    You can rest assured Jaguar isn't the only mfg. that has gremlins on new models but the more sophisticated the tech, the more chance of problems.

    I have a prem Lux/porecelain/ivory,truffel/B&W/vision pkg.

    I am extremely happy with the car.......performance....looks...style...and the sound system is unbelievable...souuround sound at its finest.

    I did have 2 issues that have been resolved after 2 visits to the dealer. 1)sunroof motor had to be replaced and 2)park assist overhead console had a back connection..........

    hmmmm both eletrical....sounds like the old lucas issues...lol

    Still very happy with the car.



    So, you really do not need to be a religious follower of ANY review source in the press.

    Conclusion...this girlfriend can date others for now...

    Regards,
    OW
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ...
    If , indeed, it is an internal fog light, then one is brighter than the other!


    Sorry to be way late again on this. Been really busy with work. Then for a while, the forums were blocked by the proxy.

    Anyway, there's only one rear foglight. That's why one is brighter than the other.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... The Corvette used to be the ultimate bargain super car, but I think the GT-R definitely now has that title, and it achieved it without the use of leaf springs or cheap, OHV power.

    Yeah, it used all sorts of gee-whiz gadgetry, AWD, 4-wheel steering, and TWO turbos! Yet it still falls quite short on power compared to that cheap OHV, weighs nearly two tons, and gets thoroughly smoked buy the Corvette with the cheap, low-tech technology by the time the quarter mile ends (look at the trap speeds.)
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I agree. Why not let the ES just be a better made Buick, if that's what customers want?

    Why not let the GS be what it is if that's what the customers want?
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