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Not exactly. The Stig was driving the M3, and Clarkson was driving the C63. Clarkson is a very good driver, but he's not really a "professional". If you've seen the TG test of the VW GTI W-12 concept car, Clarkson couldn't so much as get it to go around a corner without spinning, while the Stig did the entire lap without issue. I'm sure Stig could hit the apple in the Benz or Audi without a problem.
Porsche doesn't make sport sedans yet, but I could easily see somebody cross-shopping an M3 coupe and 911. The 911 has the better steering.
Porsche seems to always top all the other german cars with their handling.
I think that comes down to two things. Fanatical Porsche engineers, and simple weight. BMWs, Audis, and especially M-Bs have gotten really heavy. The new M3 weighs more than 500lbs. more than the base 911 models, and thats a huge automatic disadvantage as far as handling is concerned.
The M3 has to be one of the top scalpels in the operating room where sedans are concerned, no?
Regards,
OW
Yeah there are very few sedans that can outmatch the M3. The Evo X would probably win on a track, or if not the standard version one of the super-hot FQ versions would. The B8 RS4 might also have a shot at taking it down.
Yes, I own an LX 470....and one of the reasons I bought it was the nicely weighted steering and the great way it feels. The only Lexus I have ever driven where I did not like the steering feel is the ES. LS is great, GS is great. RX is OK. I have not driven the SC or the GX.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
What are you talking about? What does this have to do with my comment? To be perfectly honest, Audi is passive about the US, at best. They are so much more successful in Europe and Asia that it doesn't really matter.
Audi's are notorious for not holding up well over time...
Doesn't mean it's true. Audi is the second most reliable European brand, only behind Jaguar.
they are notorious for having perhaps the worst dealer network in the U.S....
I wouldn't go that far.
and corporate wise they are notorious for being unresponsive and cavalier about audi owners concerns.
I can't speak for this because I haven't had any concerns.
Their cars look great, but underneath they are very mediocre.
Now that is a flat out lie. You can insult them all you like for looking like Lincoln Town Cars, I don't care. But their mechanicals, mediocre??? That crosses the line. Prove it.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Talk about ridiculous!
Even if the LF-A was half price at $112,500, I'd take the R8. Or a GT-R for a THIRD of the price!
TM
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
I would take an R8 and a loaded M5 for that price.
One thing I really don't get with that car is the styling. Maybe I'm partial to European beauty, but this Japanese, edgy theme that the LF-A and GT-R employ is not sexy and turns me off a bit. Sports cars are supposed to be pretty.
'08 BMW X5 4.8i • '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet
Blame Lambo then... European.
But, I know what you mean.
TM
The Passionate Pursuit
Personally I think the car will have a MSRP around $150k, give or take an extra $10k. For those who think that R8 is in the same league with the LF-A, you'll be proven wrong when Lexus debuted this car. This is pretty much Toyota/Lexus' answer to the F430 (if not anything higher... :surprise: ) and it holds the fastest unofficial record at the 'Ring for current production cars.
Obviously "speed kills"... the mind.
Why?
How fast is the Bugatti? Is it worth $1,750,000? :surprise:
Now compare that Bugatti's speed to the GT-R's speed. Let's see now. Is the difference in speed worth over $1,650,000?
Or, are you now going to say there is more to it than just "speed"? :confuse:
TM
Perhaps you didn't get it...
There is a difference, HUGE difference as matter of fact, between going fast on a drag strip and going fast in the 'Ring.
You and others were all crying foul when the LS460 finished last in the CD luxury car test last year, you said it was "pre-production" and would not be fair to compare it to a true production model. If that was true then, so it is now. Who knows what Toyota could have done to the pre-production LF-A that went around the Ring. :lemon:
I didn't do that...
you said it was "pre-production" and would not be fair to compare it to a true production model.
That wasn't me...
Before you accused me of saying something that I didn't maybe you should spent some time digging up the old posts to make sure that your memory was correct. I don't think that's too much to ask, is it? :confuse:
remember that it is not in production yet.
That's correct but the key is that Lexus isn't building some experimental car here, the LF-A is bound to go into production so it is only reasonable to measure it against other cars that are currently in production. Guess who is the current "official" record holder for production cars... Pagani Zonda F Clubsport.
Source: Nordschleife fastest lap times
Also, let me keep the record straight for the last time, even though I am a huge LS460 supporter but given the criteria for the comparo I have no problem of it finishing the last. Performance/driving dynamically wise the LS460 is no where near as the leader in its own segment.
Regards,
OW
Furthermore, Audi just won the "European Inventor of the Year 2008" from the EU for its advanced aluminum spaceframe technology. Not to mention, how many engine awards has Audi won and how many times have their engines been on Ward's Ten Best? Hmm, didn't Audi just win 24 Heurs de Le Mans twice in row in A Diesel!? The list goes on and on not only for technology and performance, but for motor sports, brand presence,marketing, advertising, design, interiors, progressiveness, culture......too much to name!
What's with writing VW/Audi? Is that an attempt to insult? They are not the same! Maybe, I'll start writing Mini/BMW or Smart/MB.
Jaguar is the most reliable European brand.
Now thats new to me :surprise: :sick:
This is in relation to the JD Power initial surveys in the US. Jaguar is not competive in long term surveys or European quality surveys compared to Audi.
I'm not a VW fan, but Audi has massively improved their quality within the last few years. The A6, once infamous for quality problems, is now among the best in class.
That's fine but how much would the V10 R8 cost? The same as the base R8?
It is just kind of funny for you to knock on the LF-A before it can truly prove itself to the public. Wait, it kind of already did with the unofficial speed record in the 'Ring...
What's "politically correct" about car talking is not to knock on a car before all the dust has settled.
This is what you hear every year. There is no way to tell until 4 or 5 years down the road. Initial quality is almost meaningless.
CU still has the A6 rated below average for 98 thru 2007. And you won't find Audi on CU's best of the best lists for used cars whereas their parent company VW is always on the worst of the worst list. :sick:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
When I first saw the Lexus and two hundred + thousand , I thought to my self `What ? a Lexus?` That just goes to show prejudice, before I even really know what the car is all about..If it said Ferrari, then I would expect that type of pricing because I am use to it....I have never thought any of the exotics to be a value at the numbers they sell for, but I have on occasion desired them....Tony
Honda already did it with the NSX back in 1992. I don't know what's $80k in '92 as today's money but I am sure it's probably around $120k+.
Also, like I said, I can't see the LF-A to cost more than $170k, if you have read the link that I provided you'll find out that this report is very fishy.
And look at what a smash hit the NSX was. If Lexus prices the LF-A at over $200K, it will fail in the market, no matter how fast it is. I don't quite understand what exactly the point is of this car. What is it supposed to do for the brand?
It can't be to celebrate Toyota's racing heritage/success because they suck at racing. It can't be a "get people into Lexus showrooms" type of halo car because its so completely unrelated to Lexus' mainstream offerings, and so few Lexus shops will actually have one. If it's just supposed to lift the image of the Lexus brand itself, the NSX has already proven that a mega-buck super car with "your name here" on it wont do that. If Acura has any more prestige now than they did when the NSX was released, its through slowly pushing cars like the TL and MDX upmarket. I don't think the NSX affected their brand cachet in the slightest.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Exactly what NSX did for Honda. People said Toyota can only build boring cars and LF-A is their way to say "just watch...". Granted that the NSX wasn't a "smash hit" but it was praised universally by the auto presses. Toyota/Lexus doesn't need another "smash hit" on its hands (got too many already...), what it needs is a car to show the world that it can too do performance.
I don't think the NSX affected their brand cachet in the slightest.
The NSX probably had little effect on the Acura but it definitely won over some, if not a lot, respect for Honda. That's exactly what Toyota need right now.
That's exactly right. Glad to see I'm getting some support here... especially from you, LG.
If the LF-A approaches the approx. quarter million dollar price point, it will sell a few units of course, but it will never be a highly sought after vehicle.
I think it would be a smart move for Lexus to deliberately limit production to a mere handful of cars, making the LF-A a highly-exclusive vehicle, and possibly even a collector's car. Any attempts to sell the LF-A in significant numbers with a high price tag is suicide. Either way, it will do nothing for the Lexus name.
High performance is not associated with the Lexus marque. Reliability is what is associated with Lexus. Reliability and supercars don't even belong in the same sentence.
TM
The Passionate Pursuit
By the way, I don't think it was Toyota/Lexus' intention from day one that the LF-A is going to sell in significant numbers. This car is going to be expensive, exclusive and the super among the supers. Period. For anyone who thinks the LF-A would go out the dealership lots in any kind of volume is what I would called "clueless" about the auto industry.
If I am Toyota I would do the same with all the cash, and that's to build a perfect supercar so they can sh*t on the auto presses...
Agreed, anyone who thinks Lexus is trying to or going to sell a lot of these at $225k is off their rocker. Lexus is putting "performance" into their mix and this will be an exclusive "performance" car.
This thing is going to be all about performance and nothing but performance, Toyota wouldn't give a darn about how many it sell or whether it makes money for them or not. For those who think the LF-A is just going to be "another Lexus" is going to be either very disappointed or genuinely surprised.
I also Black Magic'd the EW's white RX300. Looks good, from a distance! I also unstuck gum from the leather seats and found a treasure trove of Gold Fish crackers, gum wrappers, cheese crackers, pretzels etc., under the back seats.
She just doesn't really care. Just a $40k closet/snack room for the kids on wheels... :sick:
And, oy. Does it really make a big difference in any of your lives if a car that is/might be produced by a huge international conglomerate laps the Nurburgring faster than my AMC Pacer ever did? Ultimately, the only important criteria is, is it a car you want to buy/will buy?
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
A lot about this car is out there, you were just not looking for it.
Just for you reality2... The Passionate Pursuit
The reported $225k price tag is very fishy!!
The LF-A would probably end up cost around $150,000 to $175,000 just like the V10 R8 would.
Perhaps, I guess we'll find out. The LF-A could possibly do wonders Lexus like the R8 has done for Audi, or it could be a dud like the SLR that dealers can't get rid of. M-B should've made a few hundred of those and then quit.
Porsche’s 911 GT3 RSR, driven by Bernhard Timo, Lieb Marc, Dumas Romain, Tiemann Marcel, came in first. Second placed was held by the Porsche 911 GT3 MR followed by the Porsche 997.
BMW’s Z4 M and the M3 GTS were the only two cars in the top 10 stopping Porsche from taking over the list coming in at fourth and sixth place respectively.
Volkswagen’s much hyped Scirocco GT24 came in 11th. Other cars that we were keeping an eye out for were the Aston Martin V8 Vantage N24 which came in 18th; Lamborghini’s Gallardo came in at 106th; and Lexus’ much hyped LF-A came in at 121st.
NOTE. Porsche proves its a driver car again and again occupying 8 of the top 10 spots :surprise:
MUCH hyped LF-A came in at 121 :surprise:
Lexus was using this race to do more test for the LF-A...
The Passionate Pursuit
It also finished 7th in its class, ahead of an Audi, an Aston Martin DBRS 9, a Porshe and a Viper...
Nurburgring 24
Really lol.
LS460 Assembled in: Nagoya, Japan
LS600H Assembled in: Tahara, Japan
Both of these are built in different places does it make difference in the quality?
Perhaps because the hybrid is a limited production its a little more special.
IMO the LS600H head lights looks much better than the LS460
Lou can be the first owner. The Lexus is far from a game changer. [Calls shot from waaayyyyy outside]
Still, I have no doubt that like the GS450h (which also apparently comes from the Tahara plant) the 600hL is specially hand built away from the 460s coming off the regular line.
Strange why is lexus not giving the correct information in their website?
newcartestdrive.com which lexusguy gave me stated the following which I mentioned in my previous post.
"The new LF-A supercar takes the exact same mistake made by the IS-F to the next level, combing brand betrayal with yet another cardinal sin for automotive brand managers: the halo car.
Supposedly, all halo cars cast an unquantifiable glow over the brand’s more prosaic products. The LF-A will drop-kick Lexus’ stodgy image, making all Lexi more appealing. If I was a Lexus stockholder, I’d be uncomfortable with any multi-million dollar investment based on psycho-babble. If I was a brand manager, I’d want statistical proof that Lexus’ image is somehow lacking amongst owners or intenders, and that a supercar would rectify this theoretical problem.
The new Tundra’s sales targets represented a huge miscalculation by the Japanese automaker’s product planners that will cost Toyota billions. And now, the LF-A boldly goes where Toyota has never gone before, both in terms of money and image. Why? For what are they trying to compensate? Lexus would have been far better off transforming their dopey SC into a credible Mercedes SL challenger. Or continuing to refine what they already have. Or just sending their loyal customers a nice “thank you” service voucher."
I absolutely agree that making the SC into a credible challenger for M-B, BMW, and Jag rather than the ugly joke it is now would be time and money much better spent than wasting it on a super-car to commemorate F1 wins that don't exist.
Link: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-lexus-l-f-a-is-a-mistake/
That IMO means the LS600h is more special and more superior than the LS460s in every way.
Even if Lexus ended only selling 100 a year world wide but as long as this car gets universally praised by the auto presses regarding its performance then it'll be a victory for them.
Also, to compare Tundra with the LF-A is just stupid, the whole pickup truck market is down due to the high gas price. Even with that there is no doubt the new Tundra is much more popular than the one it replaced. The Tundra was supposed to be the volume model for Toyota but LF-A will merely be a message to the world that Toyota can too do performance...
And now, the LF-A boldly goes where Toyota has never gone before, both in terms of money and image. Why?
Because they have the money and because they can.
Simple as that!!
If I am Toyota/Lexus, I really wouldn't mind to drop a significant amount of R&D funding on a halo supercar so the auto presses can no long claim that Lexus can only build boring and reliable luxury cars.
Take the NSX as an example, even it wasn't a huge success in terms of sales number but people will forever link performance with Honda because of it.
The bottom line is that Toyota needs its NSX and that car is the LF-A.
Although I have two German cars at this time, I think Lexus-toyota is a fine company that puts the customer way up there......I personally think it would be fun to have a hy-bred car , as the challenge to get milage could be fun (at least for a while)...I also think the LF will be an interesting car to find out about--so I can determine if it is what they say it is....All in all it is a fluid world out there and those that have a mind set , probably will be changing quicker than they think....I don`t care how fine the handling of a car is ---when gas is say six dollars a gallon---my perspective will change....I sort of look forward to the coming challenges....Tony
Your reference to the NSX is a good one.
I think Toyota will do well with the LF-A if they can repeat the success of the Lexus brand compares to Honda's Acura.
Honda was the first Japanese company to introduce the upscale brand in NA. Lexus came later but was a much bigger success. I am sure Lexus people have studied the NSX from all perspectives and be certain that they won't commit any short coming associated with the car. When you think back, the only real problem with the NSX is its engine's power output; it did not have room for improvement when its competitors got better.
I feel that the pricing of the LF-A will be justified once Lexus shows that it is serious about competing with the super cars i.e. exclusivity, continuous performance dominance, and last but not least better quality. Everyone wants a Ferrari, but how many people want to pay for its $1000 oil change :surprise:
It will real hard to argue its pricing when the GT-R is in the picture, but this is the same problem for all the other super cars.