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That's the new vocabulary today for any company that wants to be bailed out by tax payers.
When a company like GM can only sell a Cobalt for $4K less then an equivalent Civic (based on Canadian pricing) in a market segment that is right now the hottest one to be in then failure has already occured .
In this case the new vocabulary should be:
TOO BIG OF A FAILURE TO SUCCEED!
I had a good conversation with a salesman at a BMW dealer in CT here about a nice 2007 530xi I have my eyes on. It's got 18K miles, and they're asking $39K for it (premium package, sports package). He told me the car had one owner, went into service APRIL 2008!! The owner bought it in New London (BMW dealer), lives in New Haven, traded it in for a 7 Series! He practically read me the service record for the vehicle. It has no issues, except a power window issue which they fixed. The warranty covers the vehicle until April 2014 and the 50K mile warranty goes until 2012. I'm going to see the vehicle over the weekend. The guy was totally transparent and answered every question I had. No pressure whatsoever. The first owner turned the car in at 16K miles, and then a BMW rep had the car for the next 2K miles. The salesman told me I could speak to that BMW rep about how the car handled anytime I want.
Meanwhile, at the other dealer in Westchester county, NY, where I saw another 530xi 2007 last week, but wasn't that crazy about it, the sales woman called me about another vehicle they just got in, going through certification, and "maybe you should put down a deposit because they're a lot of sales reps here, the car might go...." But I wouldn't hear of it without seeing the car. She thinks I will like the car. ACtually I saw the car listed onthe BMWUSA website, it wasn't even out on the lot yet. That' s a pretty good way to track down vehicles.
I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm thinking it over carefully. I figure the car is almost new, let's face it, and the warranty goes for another 5 years. I pretty much decided to pass on the 2008 535i I saw and went nuts over, because that's just too over-powered for me.........
Any thoughts?
I like Panamera as watched from the front or the oblique front angle. All other views are very round, very soft, or as you say very '80. Quite undefined, IMO.
In some way Panamera reminds me of the (European) Ford Mondeo or, in other words, of a mechanical blood sausage painted in grey (in the Panamera pics). :surprise:
In Panamera I like too the front wheel vent.
Regards,
Jose
As you know, pics so often do not do a car justice. The Nissan GT-R was a recent example.
I think the latest Panamera pics have been fairly good, so I'm thinking the car might be very nice. So far I like it quite a bit. I really do. As you probably recall, it was originally on my radar... but at this point, acquiring one is impossible.
TM
I spotted my first 7 series today, 750li blue colour, it was looking amazing, I can't imagine it would be so nice in person.
Its the best looking sedan I've ever seen.
Much better than the S class or the LS460l
Doesn't look as big as the previous 7 series, very well put together, its wider then the previous gen, yet it looks smaller.
I wonder how does bmw do it :confuse:
On my way back home spotted a red bugatti veyron and a pagoni zonda :surprise:
Porsche enthusiasts? I dont think so.
Traditional luxury sedan buyers (i.e. MB S Class or Lexus LS)? I dont think so.
Sportier luxury sedan buyers like BMW 7 Series owners? I dont think so. There is a reason why there is no such thing as a BMW M7 . Too much sport for such barges is as ridiculous as having an Olympic match for overweight sprinters. (though dont tell that to MB S Class AMG buyers).
Also the hatchback styling is going to turn off many North Americans.
This Panamera reminds me of a BMW X6. Both are niche vehicles that sevrve a niche that barely exists.
The new 7 looks like an ugly hog from the front end...
Purely based on the exterior styling here's my list:
S-class > LS > A8 > 7er
Doesn't look as big as the previous 7 series
Saw the new 7 on display at LA Auto Show the past Sunday, that thing looks HUGE! Although it doesn't look as bloated as the current gen but it does look bigger in presence from my eyes.
Panamera? If I am in the market for a luxury 4-door coupe I will wait for the Aston Martin Rapide.
Here's my conspiracy theory: Gas crests $4/gallon. Sales/use of SUVs plummet, conserving fuel, decreasing demand. Evil forces push down the price of gas significatnly, knowing what a short memory some folks have, to create more demand. Slowly increasing the use of/purchases of now bargain priced SUVs, increasing demand allowing prices to march back up to $4, $5/gallon...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Purely based on the exterior styling here's my list:
S-class > LS > A8 > 7er
I guess we have different opinions, although I am a lexus fan, the LS is also more comfortable, yet I prefer the new 7 seri styling.
Saw the new 7 on display at LA Auto Show the past Sunday, that thing looks HUGE! Although it doesn't look as bloated as the current gen but it does look bigger in presence from my eyes
Maybe it's bigger, but looks smaller than the previous 7 seri, but that’s just my opinion.
Probably be very expensive, unless you can afford it.
Will people have short memories and go out buy more less fuel efficient vehicles (SUVs and V8+ gas guzzlers)? You betcha, as matter of fact here in the metro LA area, the Hummer are already coming out of the hiatus due to the low gas price.
Will the Big 3 be stupid enough to push for more crossovers/SUVs? Based on their collective intellecture and track records I say that's very likely. If I am a betting man that's what I am going with
So let's see... The gas price currently is low, people buy more gas guzzlers, Big 3 then will build more of them and say let's forget the fuel-efficient vehicles, then gas price goes back up, people are screaming, whining, cursing and stop buying Big 3 products again and ultimately the Big 3 will need another bailout or they are doom for good...
Boy we are effed...
:sick: :sick: :sick:
Will people have short memories and go out buy more less fuel efficient vehicles (SUVs and V8+ gas guzzlers)? You betcha...
You got that right. In my area, almost as soon as prices dipped under $2.50, there was a news report of dealers already saying truck/SUV sales were shooting back up. :sick: People are sooo stupid sometimes!
I don't think Porsche is targeting the traditional big luxury sedans with this car, or even the S63, Alpina B7, or Audi S8. They are after a much smaller niche, ie the Quattroporte Sport, Rapide, and that freaky Lambo 4-door. I seriously doubt there's enough buyers to support 4 or 5 cars, and there's a very good chance that several of these cars will be one time specials. If I were Porsche, I wouldn't be wasting my time with this car.
Remember, every1 criticize Porsche for making the cayenne, how’s the cayenne doing today?
Isn't the Honda Accord a text book example of how to build a marque/brand/model/SUCCESS?!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Hi Gardis,
I honestly have not a clue if that is a good deal?
My suggestion is that Edmunds 5 series forumss may be a better place to go for an answer.
Good luck.
good day.....and Howard the new owner of TWO cars a particularly bountiful day to be appreciated.....Tony
Now that my wife has her license, I seem to be down to one car again. Yet by my admittedly rough calculations, I seem to be actually washing two cars. :surprise:
It didn't take her long to find the mall. :surprise:
Thanks for the good wishes!
The only one I've seen that's almost this bad is the Lexus ES 350.
That last photo had me ROTFLMAO!!! :shades:
TM
Glad to see VW is playing a role in the Panamera's production.
That's going to be one expensive hybrid. However, achieving 25 mpg would be a dazzling feat, given the vehicle's mass and power.
Hope it looks better in person. The photos seem to indicate that it is a stretched-out, bloated Cayman. Worth a trip to the dealer to see one up close.
Tough emissions standards worldwide and soaring manufacturing costs in Germany are behind BMW's decision to switch from high-revving, naturally aspirated engines in its M high-performance vehicles to turbocharged direct-injection powerplants, beginning as early as next year.
The move, which could alter the character of BMW M models, places question marks over the immediate future of the M3's 4.0-liter V8 and the M5's 5.0-liter V10. Both engines will make way for forced-induction engines in coming years, according to high-ranking BMW sources.
The first M vehicle to make the move to the new turbo powerplants is the X6 xDrive M, which will challenge the Porsche Cayenne GTS and the Mercedes-Benz ML63 AMG.
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You can blame the pilgirms for making it at Plymouth Rock during late November. Bad timing in my opinon. It would have been so much better if they booked their cruise 6 weeks earlier.
Wow talk about Mother Nature Vehicle.
A hybrid Panamera makes as much sense as a MB S Class AMG. The AMG is like an overweight sprinter who looks like a good cardiac arrest candidate and the Panamera is like an alcoholic who boasts that he is not really an alcoholic because at least he sips his drinks very slowly.
Two pointless endeavors in my opinion
Funny you should mention the X6. I remember being appalled by it when it first came out. Curiously, it has grown on me as most Bangle-era vehicles never have. I find it to have a downright menacing neanderthal look, kind of like an enormous but intriguing subway cockroach. Not that I would buy one... it's a little too cage-match decadent and impractical for me.
BTW, I think Panamera will appeal to a certain new niche and it will steal MB clientele. I agree with Lexusguy on the interior. Also, if it just had a few more inches of overhang on the rear, it would have staved off GS hunchbackitis which is most noticeable in full profile.
Happy Thanksgiving. Good to see you guys again. I hope everybody is OK in spite of our troubling times.
I will not be buying an X6 or Panamera anytime soon. However, I intend to "window-shop" the latter. Curiosity has gotten the better of me-could the actual car be as ugly as the photos reveal?
I am quite content with my recently-purchased beautiful sport-packaged BMW 328i.
Thank you. Chris Bangle. You are truly the Michelangelo of car designers.
PS-You can cross the border, Dewey, buy a turkey dirt cheap tomorrow on Black Friday and freeze it for next Thanksgiving; assuming you can still find a bird that hasn't already been pardoned by the out-going Bush Administration.
I find Bangle to be more Salvador Dali-ish. I'll hang the Michelangelo tag on Ian Callum or Walter D'Silva...
Happy Turkey past and present, all! Be thankful that we can still afford our internet connections to continue to share witticisms...!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Yet I believe Bangle's most conservative designs, the 3 Series in sedan and coupe forms are his best work.
Time to watch the Lions go 0-12.
Don't over-indulge, folks. You will hate yourself, tomorrow.
Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.
You're like a family member of mine who surprisingly visits us every other Christmas or Thanksgiving gathering.
Hope we hear from you more often then just those two days. How about Easter Day or Columbus Day too?
Thanks for the suggestion. In fact if you refer to the video clip below I already bought that Alaskan turkey that is behind Sarah Palin's head.
link title
But I heartly wish to all of you and your families a loving dinner and some good warm knaps!! (or warm ups, or warm naps, at your choice
Enjoy,
Jose
Hope things are good with you, and you are doing well.
TM
I am enjoying the second Thanksgiving this year. My recently won client is in Kansas City, yep the Mid West, so I had the Canadian Thanksgiving before heading over there, and now I get to take another TG long weekend. I like this one better since we get both Thu and Fri off. I wish I had stayed over in KS instead of coming back to the cold/wet Toronto.
On the topic of cars, it never felt so good driving my Lexi after three weeks of rental vehicle, a PT Cruiser. No wonder no one buys these junks, only the car rental companies. My RX drives and handles better than that POS :surprise:
On the financial front, I hope the markets will continue this rally to at least surpass the damages done in the past three weeks. You were right on with the warning on C,.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
I am particularly prone to popping into a NY deli and grabbing a "snack"... in the form of a thick sandwich. We need these back in California... LOL. But, my waistline doesn't need them at all.
Lots of black Lincolns everywhere, in addition to the sea of taxi cabs. Buses and delivery trucks, and not that many privately owned passenger cars. So different than California.
People alao dress differently and are more serious and much less patient. But, overall, New Yorkers are a nice bunch. I'll definately come back one day... when the weather is warmer.
TM
I wouldn't call those NY deli sandwiches a snack. They are bigger than a tripple Big Mac filled with deli meat. I do agree with you that they are very good though.
For the Audi fans here, I just read in the local paper that Audi does not think it can make the target of 200k units annual sales by 2015 for the US market. Why is that, I thought that it would be a breeze since you have filled my head with so many wonderful Audi products?
I'm about to check out another "snack"... in the form of a NY-style pizza.
TM
Anyway, on to the topic of cars... I have spent the last several days trying to convince the Hyundai zealots at the Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai? board that in order to be a real player in the luxury market, having competitive products (cars) is not all. I was telling them that it's the total luxury ownership on top of the good products that defines the luxury market. However, what I got is getting called something like an elitist brand snob... :sick:
Well, since almost everyone here own at least one (if not a whole fleet of...) luxury brand cars I would like to see your takes on this topic. Whether or not you agree with the Hyundai zealots I think the comparison between the luxury crowd and Hyundai crowd could paint a very interesting picture.
The Lexus line is the closest of the true luxury marques to the Genesis.
Genesis is an incredible value, IMO, and deserves a whole lot of credit. It's tough wearimg the Hyundai badge and "ownership experience", but that will improve over time, as has already happened.
Hyundai's reputation is getting better all the time. Genesis helps.
TM
From Wall Street Jouranl:
(1) Sales for the U.S. luxury-car market, which includes everything from a Lexus to a Lamborghini, fell 30% last month from a year earlier -- on par with the 31.9% decline for the overall market, according to Autodata Corp., a market research firm.
On top of rising foreclosures, a plunging stock market and thousands of pink slips on Wall Street, luxury-car makers say their customers also don't want their subordinates to see them driving a new car.
"People don't want to look like they have money now," said Mark Templin, group vice president of Toyota Motor Corp.'s North American Lexus division.
(2) Yup, that's right people overall are uncomfortable with flaunting their bling . Driving a Hyundai that is equivalent to luxury marques without the luxury marque is the right car for the right time.
So you may ask how much is this so called ownership experience worth? Apparently the value of such experiences are just not worth the price. People cannot even be incentivized into buying the luxury experience.
Incentive spending -- such as zero-percent financing and cash rebates -- is on the rise, more than doubling for vehicles priced over $60,000, according to Edmunds.com. The average incentive spending on a premium car last month was about $8,100, compared with $3,430 a year earlier.
But unlike past downturns, consumers aren't responding to traditional marketing devices like increased incentives, lease deals or beefed-up advertising, said BMW spokesman Tom Kowelski. "This is the most difficult period we've experienced in North America," Mr. Kowelski said. BMW's U.S. sales fell 14% last month to 20,203 vehicles.
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Today luxury cars and SUVs are equally alluring but not in a complimentary sense. Fewer people want to buy them even if they are financially able to do so.
In fact we are enjoying our second Thanksgiving too. Family members from San Francisco are here in Toronto.
I can assure you we are not going to eat turkey for the third time during Christmas.
Whoa, really? That's way below Edmunds TMV of $40k+. Did you mean $42-47k or really $32-37k? If that's true then helloooww CLS500.
Btw, LG, I disagree with you on BMW 6 being ugly inside out. I actually find the styling pretty cool and very similar to the XK, though I do admit it looks kinda bad from the side. I stopped next to a black-on-cream convertible this afternoon and I still think it looks gratifying. Maybe it's like Dada and his prior affection over the XLR (beauty is in the eye of beholders), maybe I'll get over it, maybe not. However, if the CLS offers better deals I'll probably kill the 6 off the list.
The new A6's rear end, now that's bad. They all look the same now, and the old rear end looks much better imo. The new one otoh, now looks mismatched with the front end. Bad....
"I was surprised when I read your post. I had no clue that the A6 was selling more frequently then the E-Class, and 5 Series. "
Well, not in US, but worldwide, thanks in large part to China and Russia, the A6 outsells E and 5. As for the paint, ouch!!! I have no exact figure, but the last time my friend fixed his red A4's paint (deep red, 2003 model) it cost him over $400. Audi paints are expensive, and the worst part is it's really hard to match the paint with the rest of the body. Unless your car is really new you'll most likely still see the difference, no matter how slight.
I was about to comment on his tasteless choice of alcohol, and perhaps make a well-needed recommendation, but didn't when I noticed what he was holding-my latest issue of Car and Driver magazine. No! This was not just any issue; it was THE issue-the 27th annual "10 Best Cars Issue"!
I excitedly turned with trembling fingers to page 82 and sure enough there it was right on the first page of the article: the BMW 3-Series has been chosen for its 18th consecutive year! The 3 Series was the only BMW series selected.
To quote Car and Driver: "Is this perfection? In our view, no current family of cars comes closer to that elusive target."
Just a great way to end my holiday! :shades:
I don't think Hyundai wull be as successful in cracking the luxury market as Lexus has been. Look at Infiniti as an example of not really getting it done. One could make the case that their cars are as good or better than Lexus but they have not been able to convince most high end buyers to spend their $ on them.
It is more complicated than just having a great car, we all know that the power of the brand and any associated status/heritige counts as well.