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Comments
That sums up what I was trying to say pretty well.
Thanks.
In a Luxury market, the Genesis would be up against the A6, 5 Series, E Class, and the GS. There is no competition, Hyundai are not luxury cars, never will be, and are junk.
Do yourself a favor, spend your 36k else where, perhaps on a 3 Series, A4, or C300.
I admit, I'm a name dropper, and would be embarrassed to drive a Hyundai. My first car was a new 92 SC400, which I still have today. Only 81k miles. Currently I'm driving my 05 A6, which is above and beyond a POS Hyundai..
It sure is nice to read your excited words again...Now if Dewey were to chime in, I would begin to believe that `All is right with the world---God is in heaven` That is a good thought....Tony
I always look forward to getting the January issue of C&D.
In this particular issue there is a stunning photo of Chris Bangle's masterpiece, the 3 Series Coupe, in Crimson Red; one of the best photos of a car that I have ever seen.
Tony, there are few cars as beautiful as the 3 Series Coupe.
As a devout believer in chaos theory, all has always been right with the world.
"Wrong" happens to be "right", Tony.
Hmmm, I'm guessing you'd be embarrassed to be seen in a Hyundai, and that actually driving the thing, or enjoying whatever it had to offer, are way (way) down on your list.
To each their own.
Enjoy those fashion accessories.
I find the ressemblance of some Porche models to some Lotus models has a long way back. As an example:
Lotus Elan M100 (1989-1995)
and 1990 944 S2 Cabrio (taken from Mystery car pix thread)
Regards,
Jose
Looks like many here want the badge more than the quality.
No other manufacture is improving or growing as fast as the Korean manufacture.
Time will tell.
Better than Lexus :surprise: :sick:
Obviously the LS is in a category that Infiniti doesn't compete in currently. One could easily argue that the G and the M are better than the ES and GS. I don't think Infiniti is a better car company than Lexus but I'll stand with the statement. Neither one is a company that I put ahead of the Germans when I am loking for a car.
I guess it's OK for BMW to have some bad dealers because the cars are great, but it wouldn't matter how great a car Hyundai builds because it's got the Hyundai badge.
The Genesis is a rare value in the lux segment. Kudos to Hyundai.
TM
I only use DS rarely, like when I want to take off in 1st from the line, otherwise, I have found that I just don't need to keep it there, the tranny downshifts so smoothly that when I need speed, I just use my right foot.
You are right that the mileage goes off a cliff when you put your foot into the twin-turbo engine. On flat terrain, in high gear, at freeway speed, the engine will deliver decent fuel economy. There are many hills and elevation changes in my area, which just destroy the gas mileage. Plus, the usual California traffic. Sure, now and then I can get mid-twenties easily, but I cannot average more than 17.2 mpg overall.
I'm OK with that until I finally go with a hybrid. Just waiting for a hybrid with a bit of a cool/fun factor. Shouldn't be too much longer... maybe a year.
BTW, had a great steakhouse dinner here in NYC. Tried some street vendor food and it was good, too. That bagel, lox, cream cheese thing was a big surprise too. Man, these New Yorkers know how to eat!
Now, time to go back home to some of the best seafood and California cuisine. And I'm definately ready to go to Fisherman's Wharf and get some fresh cracked crab with drawn butter. :shades:
TM
Regards,
OW
my family members who are from your neck of the woods are visiting us here for Thanksgiving.
Steaks, pizzas, buttered crabs, over sized deli sandwiches. Your cusine tours of NYC makes my stomach growl.
Kona coffee is hard to find in Toronto and believe it or not I found a pack at Costco with a oversized pack of Blue Mountain Jamaican coffee. In fact I enjoy my coffee more than food itself.
But my BMW 335 from the day I picked up my car to today has made me eager to consider another brand next time.
If Hyundai produced a car that is equivalent to the BMW 335i I would buy the Korean model instead.
Prestige?
Heritage?
Status/Image?
The terms above sound like the relics from the ruins of a musty old castle.
When I buy a car I buy "the car" and not the "image".
Bangle = Michaelangelo? .... nah. Bangle's design isn't for everyone. It's for those who like unconventional arts, say Frank Gehry's Gugenheim im Bilbao or Seattle Center, or at least Antonio Gaudi's works. Or another example, Van Gogh (no, not Picasso, that's just too extreme). Personally, I like some of his design elements, hate the rest. Like the 5, like the front, absolutely hate the Honda-like profile and odd trunklid. Or the 7 pre-refresh, love the rear end (yeah I do) but hate the front end, especially the eyebrows and tall nose. x3 is the only one I totally hate inside out.
"However, what I got is getting called something like an elitist brand snob... "
Aye, LW I hear ya. I get that a lot too. However even my (optimistic) parents who had faith in Lexus in it's early days (even dare bought a 1993 LS), found themselves having no faith in Hyundai's hasty attempt. Check early days Lexus, when their cars had no reputation yet, they did all they could with customer service. When my parents' car had AC problems Lexus came to their house with a flatbed, took the car to fix, and left them a loaner. After 3 days the car was returned to them and they took the loaner back. That's premium service, newbie luxo Hyundai must do the same to win customers. Do they? Nope.
As for the question: "Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?" I say yes, the real question is: What should Hyundai do to make room in the luxury market?
On top of rising foreclosures, a plunging stock market and thousands of pink slips on Wall Street, luxury-car makers say their customers also don't want their subordinates to see them driving a new car.
Uh, sure. That means about 30% care for what others think of them, for those demographics a, umm, Hyundai may be the answer. But how about the other 70%? Not to mention there's still fierce competition from Infiniti and Acura (okay maybe not Acura) which still retain the "just near luxury enough" image. Plus Chrysler 300, still a considerable player despite the brand's shaky image right now.
Btw TM, I actually found NYers kinda cold and too serious, most LAers somewhat individualists indifferent to everyone else. Oh well, maybe I'm just too used to NW style "friendly and laidback".
As I was doing my exercises this morning, there waving in the warm sun , in frount of the building was the `Maple Leaf of Canada`....I thought to myself `Dewey would be proud` Somewhere somehow prestige comes into the buying decision...In BMW case it is a better driving car, but the materials in the interior are inferior , and I don`t care for the idrive etc...If I were to have had the types of problems you have had I would definitely abandon the brand, as for me that is not prestige...A few years ago, BMW owners were a bit cultish, showing other owners a bit of respect on the road, but now that they are so large, I have found that to have diminished....Today I saw the 335 hard top convertable, bunch of young people going to the beach....It looked great except for the rear headrests....I wonder if they go up and down, or if they are fixed ?? I suspect `fixed` so that is a shame....Tony
Unfortunately most my driving is in bumper to bumper traffic.
I guess you are in Florida right now where there are still many Canadian snowbirds.
My parents had a ocean front condo right at the border of Fort Lauderdale and Pompano Beach (my mother sold the apartment in 2002). Loved visiting the place and I did notice quite a few Canadian flags over there.
Good question.
Here's the answer about that 70 percent according to the Wall Street Journal.
. The average incentive spending on a premium car last month was about $8,100, compared with $3,430 a year earlier.
But unlike past downturns, consumers aren't responding to traditional marketing devices like increased incentives, lease deals or beefed-up advertising, said BMW spokesman
Glad you found some Kona coffee at Costco. I haven't seen any locally for quite a while... but I stock up when it's available. I, too, consider coffee as important as food... I need it in order to survive in the morning. That first cup is heaven on earth.
I posted recently (I think to hpowders) before the latest issue of C&D, that the 3-Series is as close to the single perfect vehicle available.... in my opinion. As much as I love and prefer my 1-Series, it does not hit the sweet spot for the general public as well as the 3-Series does. A 3-Series sedan is a near-perfect car, and it's very good looking, although the 3-Series coupe is one of the best lookers out there. The sedan is a near-perfect combination of practicality and functionality, terrific style, and outstanding performance and driving dynamics. It is the benchmark.
TM
The wife has already asked me when she can drive the 328i, as she all of a sudden has become a car expert and can articulate the important differences between the Rabbit and BMW; this from someone who couldn't find our car in a 2 car parking lot several months ago.
For someone like you, lucky enough that practicality doesn't have to enter into the car purchasing decision, a 135i convertible is a wonderful choice.
From my shopping experience in stores, most Kona sold off the shelf is a Kona blend-sometimes as low as 10%, and usually stale. When I want the genuine 100% Kona, and I find myself in Florida, rather than at the Grand Wailea Napua Tower Key Club in Maui, which serves the best Kona I have tasted, I have it shipped to me online directly from the source.
To have a look at their source:
CTR3
From there I have popped out this old Porsche pics
550 Coupe
911 GTI
Nice cars all of them, out of common's reach
Back to work now (I'm writing some paper at home; there is a big ocean storm outside though I'm seated next to the fireplace. Tony, I envy now your nice weather in Florida. Oh, this winter Le Cirque du Soleil is coming to Bilbao
Regards,
Jose
At least turbo engines still sound like engines. What will a BMW M3 sound like 30 years from now? Probably no different than a Prius.
Every time my wife and I are in New York, we get Deli sandwiches, and stock up on Zabars and H&H Bagels. Its a ritual.
Have you seen the US auto market lately?
It might be a bit late to tell you this, but Fiorellos has the best Pizza in the city.
I really meant $32-37K. Walk into a Mercedes dealer around here with $37K, and you can drive away in a certified CLS500.
I saw a silver 650 coupe on the road yesterday, making a left in front of me. It just isn't a pretty car. The droopy front makes it look like its falling asleep, and the trunk lid still looks lifted from a different car. On the other hand, a deep blue A5 was behind me on the highway with its lights on, and then passed me and I was behind it on the exit ramp. Gorgeous car. The rear end reminds me of the Gran Turismo.
Infiniti has been a viable luxury car company for about 2 years. The original Q wasn't bad, but the marketing was horrible and Infiniti didn't keep it competitive. After a few years, the LS left it in the dust. The G20, M30, and J30 were bland, forgettable JDM Nissan imports, and the I30 and QX4 were just Maximas and Pathfinders with the Nissan logo crossed out. Infiniti proves that having a separate luxury brand/dealer network means absolutely nothing if you have no product. The fact that the M sells as well as it does, smashing the RL, and A6, and often beating the GS, proves that great product can overcome nearly anything.
Perhaps the S4 has your name on it?
I will say this, those LEDs in the rear view say "outta the way, bub" in a way that BMW's halos do not.
The weather is the same in good old New Jersey. All the CTR3's are in storage!
I am in hibernation mode watching the NY Giants vs. Washington Redskins in U.S. football right now. Giants lead 7 -0.
Counting the days before I turn in my 2006 330xi at the end of December...what a ride!
Regards,
OW
In a different way, yes... and those LEDs are kinda cool, although a bit Vegas, but I like 'em anyway. Unfortunately, everyone will be using them in one form or another, soon enough... bet on it.
But, I'm really not so sure Audi has climbed all that high on the visual intimidation ladder, with exception of the R8. Certainly Audi styling has improved and in some cases is outright gorgeous... but, for the most part, I still see performance Audis as wolves in sheep's clothing. And there's something to be said for that, as other non-suspecting challenging drivers end up getting their pants blown away and wonder WTF just happened.
TM
It was a great trip. It really was. I got back home last night, and today I am enjoying this perfect 70-degree day... it's always nice to come home.
Now, I have to conquer my financial woes and keep our home. Failure is not an option.
TM
I doubt an S4 is in the cards for our Canadian friend. I'm betting on the Toyota Prius, or Lexus variant. It's totally understandable.
BTW, gasoline prices have plummeted here... under $2 a gallon in the California Bay Area is unheard of. "Those foreign oil suppliers that wish us harm" want to hook us all over again, and watch us commit suicide. I'm not taking the hook this time.
Back to the Prius... Toyota has announced that the Prius name will NOT become its own marque anytime soon, as recently contemplated. It will remain a Toyota, at least for now.
TM
You paint a good picture with your words....I too will be back in cold cloudy weather all too soon, but your forefathers discovered a fine new world down here, and I appreciate them
Yeah, I understand. Still, the S4's performance to efficiency ratio is nearly unbeatable. They are promising combined mid 20s, matching or exceeding the numbers of the GS450h. And unlike the Prius, SPG (smiles per gallon) should be off the charts
Reminds me of the Top Gear episode where they put the old RS4 against the C63 and M3. James' RS4 registered I believe a "two" on a certain scale they used to judge the ostentatiousness of the car and the driver, while Jeremy's C63 registered off the charts and broke the machine. I prefer to be in the former category.
M3 Apple Apex Winner
Regards,
OW
Let's see what cards the Gen has. Stylewise the Gen (imo) is little more than a me too, bland but at least nice. Kill the klingon grille and the car will look like entry level Lexus. I see Hyundai's decision offering a v8 as mere novelty, just to show the public that their Genesis is not another family car. Moving inside, I like the interior design, especially the nicely balanced two-tone color scheme and dash. My gripe is the material quality. The brown leather looks very classy but feels on the cheap side. The "wood" is a poor immitation and really shows, the same goes to "aluminum" plastics. This really spoils what could be a great interior. At least room is on the plus, really big and actually felt roomier than the 300 (not sure). I never took it off the lot, so I have no driving impression.
The next problem, alas, the biggest one imo, is Hyundai's still-not-there-yet customer service. It doesnt matter if the car is sold alongside the lowly Accent or Sonata. What matters is the kind of service they'll get. Even mighty BMW is struggling with this image, thanks to notoriously poor service for a luxury brand. Hyundai currently has no image, no reputation in luxo-market, no world class product, no premium service. All these points will be covered in time (assuming Hyundai is serious) except the last. As Hyundai has nothing else it should focus on giving premium customer service to Genesis buyers. Like I posted earlier, Hyundai should do what Lexus did decades ago. With such red carpet treatment early glitches like low quality product can be overlooked, I dare bet, and it'll ease Hyundai's way to the luxury realm significantly. Please remember that Hyundai's current rising rep is based on regular-class standard, not luxury-class. It's a whole new game up there.
The car itself, like I've previously mentioned months ago, will be a serious contender in the near luxo market. Competition is less fierce there, and established names are few, like Buick (LaCrosse), Pontiac (G8), Lincoln, Chrysler (300), Nissan (Maxima), and Toyota Avalon. There's competition too, from Acura TL, Infiniti G, and Lexus ES, but overall you can see that only a few have the upper hand. Acura's goin nuts with the new TL design, Avalon goes bye-bye next year, Buick and Pontiac struggle with poor image. Lincoln, does anyone even remember it? This is where Hyundai's rising reputation comes in handy. In the end you only see tough competition from Nissan-Infiniti, Lexus ES and Chrysler 300 (the last nearing it's doom along with Chrysler's shaky future).
Should Hyundai be persistent and position Genesis to compete in true luxo class, just remember this: VW Phaeton. That's what'll happen to Hyundai if it's being too hasty. Big fish like Lexus GS, MB E, BMW 5 and even lowly (by this standard) Cadillac CTS will crush Genesis in no time. Choose the value path? You still have to fight Infiniti M. Hyundai's wisen up, choosing easier preys for now. Like I said, the time will come, but right now Hyundai is simply not ready yet. When they get enough experience with "premium" cars, and customer service and brand image rise high enough, the public will be ready. One more thing: Hyundai should have a new brand and division when it finally manage to enter the luxo class, which can focus solely on luxury class product and service. A luxo w/ Hyundai badge will do no good in US, thats why Toyota need the Lexus name. Never forget that if Hyundai wish to succeed it'll need to lure the majority: brand shoppers. I say forget the Hyundai or idiotic Equus name and call the new brand GENESIS xxx (insert model name). Lets try it:
1)Acura, Lexus, Hyundai, Infiniti, Cadillac... Hyundai.... that'll scare brand shoppers right away.
2)Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Equus, Audi, Cadillac... doesn't sound right...
3)Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis, Cadillac, Audi..... that fits
P.S: I'm not being a Vulcan, just expecting the humans.. err, I mean Hyundai to learn enough before stepping further.
I say give 'em time. Hyundai's rise has been so fast, it's nothing short of amazing. They've earned my respect and they really do deserve a lot of credit for their accomplishments.
These times are historically challenging and tricky, so it might be a while before we really know the outcome and final verdict for the Genesis. So far, however, it does appeear to be a succcess for Hyundai, in terms of both sales and image.
TM
Now, a friend of mine has a 2008 Lexus es, and they paid about 40k for the car, and I have to say I think the Genesis looks more expensive and a well made car. Plus you get a V-8 engine with a heck of a lot more horsepower with not that much worse gas mileage. And you cannot forget the warrantee also. Most of the time with even luxury brands you are going to have to pay a couple thousand dollars for a 10 year 100k warrantee.
I think that if this same car had Lexus badging or a Mercedes emblem people would not dismiss it just because they don't want the status of driving a Hyundai. If people could get over that they could get themselves a great car for a lot less.
I believe their plan will be to divisionalize the Genesis but tat will come in time. For now, perhaps the Genesis isn't an out of the park home run but it's definitely a triple!
Regards,
OW
yes, but we are talking 2015 target here. That's five to six MY away, and you don't think this recession would be distant memorory?
As for the badge, I must say even if it's labeled a Lexus I'd still dismiss it as not luxurious enough for the midsize class. The bare minimum, imo, for said class is Infiniti M. All the players in this class have multiple rounds in their guns whereas Genesis will only have 2 bullets: value and warranty. Neither big enough to hurt the rivals. Remember Acura shot with the value bullet and failed, miserably I dare say.
A few years from now, when Hyundai's experience book is filled with entries, we'll probably be seeing a true luxury Hyundai (I bet under a different marque) by then. When that happens Acura and Lexus better be reloading their guns.
That I agree, gorgeous, period. My only concern is the curse of first MY, I'm still checking around for customer complaints or anything like that. If the results are good, I'll put A5 back to my list.
"Look at Infiniti as an example of not really getting it done. One could make the case that their cars are as good or better than Lexus but they have not been able to convince most high end buyers to spend their $ on them. "
Well, that was in the past though. Infiniti's current lineup is great (except the oddball EX and idiotic QX). I believe the 02 G35 marked the brand's rebound from oblivion. I personally think the Q was a nice car, but (as LG mentioned) received poor attention and marketing from Infiniti itself. As for now, well, Infiniti can't lure high-end shoppers cuz it simply has no high-end model available for now.
So everybody's going back to their cloudy days. LOL, not me, I get cloudy days everyday from mid-fall to late-spring. Rain? Check. Snow? Check. It's finally snowing here, yet still raining as well, gosh this town is weird... I love Konas too, and it's not hard to get here (there's a shop selling Hawaiian goods), too bad it's far overshadowed by Starbucks and their gorssly overroasted robustas. I prefer Seattle's Best anytime over Starbucks....