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And it isn't just about performance and power. It is now also about fuel economy.
Here is a nice report about Audi's about-to-be-released (in Europe for now) 2009 A4 2.0 TDI e... which can deliver over 51 mpg (U.S.)!! ...
audi-a4-20-tdi-e-gets-51-mpg
And this scoop which reconfirms earlier reports about BMW possibly using a twin-turbo four cylinder in a number of their smaller vehicles... all for the sake of inreased fuel efficiency. Nothing wrong with that... but I will be interested in which company sacrifices the least amount of power to achieve good fuel economy numbers...
bmw-mercedes-benz-considering-4-cylinder-engines-for-the-us
TM
Sure... it's quick and it's style is new and interesting, although not awesome... and it's priced right.
Well, I like the looks of the RS6 better, and its engine is absolutely insane. Audi isn't bringing the C6 edition to the states though, and if they did, its price tag would be outrageous.
Unlike the M5, the XFR is comfortable in normal situations. Engine displacement is the same as the BMW, but the two engines couldn't be more different. The BMW V10 is an old fashioned Motorsport revver - 8500rpm redline, and the the peak 383ft.lbs doesn't arrive until 6100rpm. That's great in a sports car, less great in a luxury car.
The Jag's blown V8 has 461ft.lbs of torque at 2500rpm. Like the E63, you just put your foot down and you're gone. No need to mess with umpteen gearbox settings. Unlike the E63, the XFR isn't a Camaro in a tux. Thanks to the adaptive suspension and sophisticated electronic differential, handling is supposed to be excellent in sport mode. In normal mode, it's supposed to be just as comfortable as a standard XF.
The A7 is Audi's answer to the CLS. It will slot in between the A6 and A8 in size and price. Audi is also working on a smaller four-door coupe, which is intended to be the four-door version of the A5. Audi is on a huge model expansion right now. They reached their 1 million sales goal, and all of these new models are intended to help them reach the next goal.
Eventually, there will be A1-A8, Q3/5/7, TT, R8, and possibly an R4, or something else based on that recent VW sports car concept. There will be several convertibles, S versions of nearly everything but the SUVs, and several RS models at once, instead of Audis previous "one at a time" philosophy.
Nice. Very nice.
TM
The interior is the best I've ever seen in a sedan at any price. It's just stunning. Granted its a concept interior, but this doesn't have the usual Minority Report floating glass touch panels typical to pure "design exercise" concepts. Pretty much every piece looks like it could roll off the production line tomorrow. Audi, if you're listening, make it just like this, and you've got a sale.
Yeah... It's incredible.
TM
I also kept driving in circles around the first A5 I encountered at the mall parked in isolation out in the center field parking lot. Every angle is fantastic.
Regards,
OW
The details are here...
link title
TM
Quick nip back to the X6 discussion: I'm not fond of it either. There's a white one located somewhere nearby. I see it fairly often en route to the market or Home Depot, etc. It strikes me in the same way the AMC Eagle did, and I'm not alone. In searching for an image to post, I came across this:
What I don't care for, other than just a personal reaction to the styling overall, which is admittedly subjective, is the muddled sense of purpose implied by the concept itself. If I want sport in my drive, I have no need to look at a utility vehicle, especially when there are great sport wagons available, as someone else here proposed.
It seems a bit on an answer to a question nobody really asked, to me. That said, the execution seems quite good, but again, why?
I just don't really like where MB and BMW are going. MB seems to be trying to recreate the '80s - mixed with some Korean lights. It's just not working. After so much risk taking under Bangle, BMW just seems to be going backwards. Their latest designs are too cautious and uninteresting. The new 7 and 5GT just seem to have no personality, like the number one priority was just not to offend anybody.
I must agree. I have said consistently for quite some time now, even back when Doc was posting his anti-Audi posts, that Audi was in the process of a major ascention in the U.S. market, and in their product development.
I have actually been more critical of BMW than Audi, although I really do think there are plenty of reasons to praise, as well as criticize, both manufacturers.
As good as Audi's styling direction is headed, I admit am not a fan of the Q7, for example, as I believe it is too bulbous in its appearance due to its sheer size. It's design is better suited to a smaller version of same, IMO, although overall I am not a fan of that look anyway. But this is only a personal criticism, as I realize the vehicle is quite popular. The Q3 is better, IMO, although essentially a re-skinned and plusher Tiguan.
Regardless, ALL of Audi's vehicles are looking better and better, and it is clear that the best is yet to come., and that's good news.
What makes Audi exciting to me goes beyond the good exterior appearance. It's also about Audi's dynamite interiors and the incredible focus on fuel efficiency. We've already discussed the performance attributes in earlier posts, so I think it is very clear that some of the Audi vehicles have no shortage of muscle.
All in all, I wouldn't change my original prediction for Audi. I still think the company is in a major ascention mode... but I do also want to add that I now believe Audi needs to be more careful of the high price tags it assigns to its vehicles. They have the potential for being too prohibitive and shunning away too many potential buyers, IMO.
I just don't really like where MB and BMW are going.
On this one I both agree and disagree. The reason is that they are going in fragmented directions. They are trying to be all things to all people, and they have too many different things going on. The R-Class is an example for Mercedes, and just how many SUV's does Mercedes need anyway? The GL is excellent, however. I expect the S-Class alternate powertrain vehicles will be a good thing. I think the E-class is a big improvement, although not "just right"... but still a good job, especially the E-Coupe and upcoming E-Convertible. Overall, Mercedes vehicles have become a bit strange-looking and boring... like a combination of bits and pieces that don't necessarily belong together... certainly not the absolute incredible classy-looking vehicles they should be. Audi has done a better job.
BMW? I like BMW, but I think they are having an identity crisis at this point. We will have to see what happens, but some of the BMW vehicles certainly are fun to drive, and some of them have a certain sexiness about them. There is still a lot to love there, but the future is looking a little mixed perhaps. Again, we will see. I predict that BMW will need to do some serious "weeding" throughout its entire model lineup within a decade. There will be some major homeruns and some unfortunate strikeouts.
TM
Thus have their reviews routinely insisted. It's always something like, "the __ outclasses the competition in many ways, but tread lightly through the options list, or the advantages are quickly outweighed by the price tag..." or words to that effect.
I know what you mean. The Q7 isn't my favorite either, especially in monstro V12 TDi guise. The "performance" grille treatments make it look even bigger. The signature Audi themes just don't work on a vehicle that large. The GL is the better looking of the two, no argument there.
Yes the S7 does look intresting.
link title
link title
What's going on in the tranny department in your Audi vehicle?... automatic, electronic clutch, paddle shifters, conventional manual... how many speeds?... be specific... and is it equipped that way by your choice, or is that what was available when you purchased your vehicle?
Also, in addition to the details of your tranny, tell us your impressions of the transmission in your Audi.
TM
My car has the paddle shifters, and five forward speeds and one reverse, and an automatic...When I place the different selections into sport mode, the transmission is sharper, but frankly not as sharp as I would imagine the new transmissions to be... With the windows up, I have to turn the radio off to be able to hear the engine and transmission working together---just nothing like a streight shift...This was what was available....Tony
Indeed, thanks for the link. This is the first I've heard of a new 4.0L supercharged V8. I would expect more power than that though for an S model. It might be down a few horses from the V10 if the new S4 is any guide, but I think it'll have at least 425hp.
My S6 has Audi's standard six-speed Tiptronic autobox, with wheel mounted paddle shifters. It uses what Audi calls their "Dynamic Shift Program" which has some 200 different patterns to adapt to your driving style.
The S6 isn't the first car I've driven with some type of adaptive shift logic, but the changes it makes as it learns your driving style seem to be much more significant than most other systems. Since 99% of my driving is usually relaxed, the software has significantly altered the transmission's behavior as well as the throttle response in order to make the car as smooth as possible. It feels almost like a different car from when it was new.
When you do want to have some fun, you just shift out of D and into S, and the car transforms itself back into a road rocket. Since I don't have Drive Select, I can't tell you how that effects the learning process and adaptions.
As automatics go, I would say Audi's is among the best, if perhaps not quite as good as the ZF. The upcoming S cars will all have Audi's second gen S-tronic 7-speed dual clutch sequential gearbox, which should be more fun than the current auto.
What model are you in? Five speeds means Tiptronic, which to my mind is as good as it gets through a torque converter.
The TTS comes with DSG, renamed S tronic for reasons that elude me. This is the only equipment available, but I would have opted for it anyway. I've been fascinated by the tech since it was announced by Audi as available for general consumption years back, and have been following the refinements for automotive retailing, as they have unfolded, added to what is essentially a racing box .
I have get back to packing Jr's camping gear for a BSA whitewater trip this weekend, but I'll be back later for impressions. All good thus far, I'll say...
IMO the size is perfect, if smaller just wouldn't look nice.
I think my daughter's Ford Escape Limited Hybrid is nicer than I ever thought it would be
Nicer than X6
I'd even buy a Prius or Insight before buying an X6!
Really? Thats how much you hate the X6? :sick:
Well, since you're staying in another Country, there is nothing you can really do.
Funny thing is everybody seems to drive either one of the following 5 cars: a Toyota called Innova (quasi-MPV, think Pacifica), another Toyota oddly named Avanza and Xenia at the same time, Honda Jazz (Fit in our speak), Nissan Livina (I think it's called Note in Japan), or a Suzuki minivan. What an odd place....
Yeah, reliable is what they want, its very much the same in neighburing Countries like Thai as well.
Anyway about the X6, the v8 already got the new turbo since the 2008 MY, but the 6-cyl got the new turbo starting 2009 MY (January shipments). Great news for you . Alas, since I'm miles away now I doubt I can get regular updates anymore.
No more regular updates, thats sad. I was reading some of car&driver reviews of the x6, they stated, no turbo lag for the inline 6, but very much for the v8, in another review, noticable turbo lag :confuse: :confuse: :sick:
If these turbos goes bust, how much to replace it?
Meanwhile, it's just me, my amusingly boring Camry (which surprisingly is too big to drive around here in comfort), and some very attractive local ladies
Which camry? There are 2 types if camry in Asian Countries, 1 of which is also sold as aurion is some places.
It is an A8 short wheelbase.....and is almost four years old now...I am sure the newer cars (probably the ZF transmissioned ones) are much more sharp than mine, but over the years no matter the hype, an automatic just isn`t like a streight shift.....Now that means the ones I have tried....Frankly I am just to isolated from the engine to really hear anything, and as I now so rarely drive the car aggressively, I am more and more out of tune with it....Up here in the N C mountains on the back roads, I use to have a fun drive, but now the people on the roads make it much more dangerous as there still are real people driving real cars from the sixties,and my car gets up to speed very quickly therefore the problem develops instantly....particularly on blind curves....and don`t forget the police..and possibly Howard on his bike
On another note, a kiack (sp) was going under a bridge up here, and a piece of metal fell on it and put a hole in it and the paddler cut his foot , so have him be careful under bridges....Tony
Anyone got any thoughts on future designs of the German 3?
------------------------------
I understand, no one is a fan of X6 here, that doesn't bother me, but X6 troubles itself does.
I think Audis are ahead in the future exterior department, but IMO Lexus is still the leader as far as reliability is concern.
There was a discussion of which car has the most comfortable seats, to me bmws, never felt comfortable in toyota or lexus cars, don't know about audis, never really took interest in them until now.
The good thing about Audis are, not everyone knows if it really is a luxury car or not, doesn't grab any attention, but that changes once the future cars comes to the market
The only thing I hate about X6s design is, it grabs a lot of unwanted attention, thats something I do not like.
Can I make it any clearer? The X6 is very low on the totem pole of cars I would want to own. Right there with the R-Class, or 2006 Subaru Tribeca... LOL.
Why does it bother you so much that I don't like the appearance of the X6?
And yes, I would rather own a Prius than an X6! At least a Prius would blend into the world... the X6 would cause too much embarrassment. I wouldn't be comfortable in it at all. It's freaky looking. Someone here on the forum likened it to a bullfrog. I agree with that.
TM
I'm not a big fan of personal leases, but in your case it might make sense. Just make sure that the lease matures before the warranty expires.
Why does it bother you so much that I don't like the appearance of the X6?
Won't ever ask you again.
bullfrog, X6, alright.
You're right. not just doubts, but lots of doubts.
Thought about other cars, but keep coming back to this car.
Not really interested in leasing.
Under a typical ownership period, that shouldn't be much of a concern. Provided the turbos are treated properly - use only BMW recommended oil, don't floor the accelerator until the oil has had time to reach nominal temperature, and let the engine idle for a minute or two after aggressive driving or several hours on the road before switching off the car - the turbos should last well over 100K miles. If you plan to actually keep the car that long, I would recommend oil changes at half the factory scheduled intervals.
BMW could tell you exactly how much it would cost to replace the turbos, but I would guess at least $6000.
Bmlexus, I have no idea how much it'll cost to replace the turbo, but I wouldn't expect the price to be anywhere below $2-3k. The new turbo in particular, was originally developed for the 3.0l engine in the new 7 series. They just decided to shove it into other models since it's cheaper than developing a whole new one (according to my source).
As for the X6, here's a tip, trim the droopy lower butt and lower the bulbous top a bit and it'll look good, perhaps even great. The droopy butt comment goes for the X5 as well. :shades:
The Camry I drive here is the same as they sell in US, only with different front and rear fascia. Amazingly well built and with much better fit-finish than American Camrys. You'll be surprised to know how unrealiable Toyota products are in this country, the problem is they're just stuck on this particular brand because it's the only brand in this country with nationwide service (no kidding). :sick:
I don't know what's come over me, Tony, but I went to Porsche recently. Tried the Cayman. Unfortunately, the most uncomfortable car I have ever attempted to sit in! Not for anybody over 6' tall. A shame, because it is one of the most beautiful vehicles I have ever seen.
The dealer also has a VW franchise. I sat in a rare fully loaded 2009 GTI which only had 2300 miles on it- leather sport seats, double clutch transmission, very comfortable- plenty of leg room, great steering wheel. Tempting!
Asking around, Porsche folks tell me I should have requested to try a Cayman with power seats-more adjustable, better for a tall person. Imagine that a $60,000 vehicle in most cases comes with basic manual seats with no lumbar support or memory. Unbelievable! So, next week it's back to Porsche I go to try one with a power driver's seat. Despite what folks tell me, I don't feel it will make a significant difference. The Cayman is a mid-engine vehicle with a fire-wall directly behind the seat, so leg-room is compromised. Sometimes I wish I was 5'10"!
Hope all is well, Tony.
Heck your story makes me somewhat glad I'm 5'8!!! Perhaps I can afford a nice lapis blue on brown Cayman when I get back to the US. I'll make mine slightly loaded with premium leather, xenon headlights and larger wheels. That, or... S5 cabrio, sprint blue on black/white interior..... hmm..... well, I still have 2 years to decide :P :P
Regarding the current and future design theme for German3:
MB is the one I hate the most. It's a total drawback in design, 1 step ahead with the 2000s sleek look, about 1000 step back with the current blocky, stodgy design inside out. The inside is the most horrific, it's the 80's all over again! It scares me to imagine what MB will do with the next gen CLS, ugh......
BMW, now that Bangle has left the building, is beginning to turn back to the old, timeless elegance.... or not. The new 7 looks idiotic IMO when I saw one today, those huge kidneys look like oversized nostrils. Worse, looking at the X1 and the next 5-series concept it's obvious that the nostrils are here to stay, at least for a while.... creepy...
Audi seems like the only one to take the right path.. so far. With the exceptions oversized Q7 and the droopy looking A6's refresh, seems like Audi has found a theme that's both timeless and cool. Hope it doesn't stray off track in the future. My only concern is price, Audi's pretty keen on bloating price lately, a move that might bite them back someday....
Seems like the double clutch tranny is destined to overtake and practically replace the manual transmission. Many more new Caymans are being ordered with the double clutch (PDK) tranny than used to be ordered with the tiptronic, according to Porsche,
Well, Bangle or no Bangle, I have had four BMW's and am in kind of a BMW rut, I guess.... although yesterday I noticed what I thought was a kind of nice dark red 3 Series behind me at a traffic light. After we both made the turn, and he zoomed ahead of me, the car was actually an M3!! Now that's a BMW!!!
I'm sure once I try the power seated Cayman and find myself once again feeling like I'm sitting in a straight jacket, my love affair with the beautiful Porsche will be put to rest.
I thank you for your good wishes, m4d cow!
I strongly agree with that. The current prices are already too high, IMO. I just have to say no thanks. If the prices were lower, I'd actually seriously consider owning an Audi.
BMW and Mercedes are no bargains either, IMO... and all three are notorious for making a killing on the options. I think Volkswagen is the genuine German value player.
TM
Straight jacket is an appropriate description. Even worse on a long trip... you will hurt... there is no doubt about it.
OTOH, you will feel terrific in a BMW Sport Seat! :shades:
TM
And I do!
The BMW Sport Package is worth ordering for the seats alone. I've had BMW premium package seats and comfort seats as well; the sport seats win hands down.
Thanks for the advice. I have had my share of painful road trips.
By the way, the sales guy let me sit in a 911 Carrera for contrast, and while more roomy than the Cayman, was also nothing to write home about. I could have used 3"-4" more legroom in the 911.
Hope all is well with you, TM. :shades:
I was in hopes that you would share the Parsche experience....and I would have thought there would be plenty of leg room...alas not....I really enjoyed the suspension of the 328 my wife recently was loaned, although I didn`t get to drive it very much....The top was very nice....and in my opinion the suspension felt very sure of itself.. I have a question for you? How does the newer double clutch transmission feel to you.?..Is it sharp and crisp?
As I remember on the 911 the back ledge made the seat not go as far back as it should....I`l now bet none of them do....As I am only six feet I was comfortable...Just remembering.....and to answer your question ` I am fine` Tony
Well, while I appreciate TM's advice, I will try the Cayman with power seats. Many folks on various Porsche threads told me it can make a difference for tall people. One guy swears that at 6'5" he is perfectly comfortable in his Cayman S. We'll see.
The legroom in the Cayman is limited by necessity because the firewall and engine are located directly behind the seats. What's scary is Porsche has a fire extinguisher option listed for the Cayman since the driver is sharing the cabin with the engine! As far as my back goes, Tony, my heat limit is a small dollop of Ben Gay! :surprise:
I plan on visiting Porsche next week to check out the power seats. The seats have lumbar support and memory.
What's almost as scary as the engine being located in close proximity to one's back is the dishearteningly brutal depreciation the vehicle takes, which is around 50% in two years. Of course, a CPO Cayman from 2007-2008 can be had for a terrific price. However, I would shy away from obtaining a Cayman as a used vehicle. The car will most likely have been driven hard. I would rather buy new and take the inevitable "hit."
But this is just talk right now Tony. The first step is to try the power driver's seat and leave the wallet at home.
By the way, I would never use a Cayman for long trips... that's the job of the Rabbit, which to my dismay have found is actually more tossable and fun to drive than the 328i. If only the VW had the BMW seats, steering, brakes, fantastic inline 6 engine, dimming mirrors and radio with 10 speakers. But if it did, it would be a BMW!! :shades:
If the Cayman doesn't work out, the redesigned and eagerly anticipated 2010 GTI is coming out in October. I would have no problem trading the 328i for the GTI. If the Rabbit is fun, I can't even imagine what the new GTI will be like! Unfortunately BMW ruined a terrific vehicle by making it too large and heavy. I have to say the current 328i is more for folks who seek the badge than are interested in exhilarating driving. For me, I'll take the fun driving... if not a Cayman, than the 2010 VW GTI.
Regards,
hpowders
Neighbor just traded her MDX for the A-4 DT. Looks REAL nice!
Regards,
OW
Most Audi customers are reacting to the higher prices by opting for the 2.0T over the 3.2. For the A4 its some 90%, so Audi has decided to eliminate the 3.2 for 2010. It will be A4 2.0T and S4. Since the S4 is now the direct competition for the 335i and C350, hopefully they'll bring the prices down somewhat.
The old VW R32 engine is also disappearing from the A3 and TT, and Audi is adding a 2.0T engine choice to the A5.
The Q5 costs about the same as the current X3 when both are loaded up. What's surprising is how much cheaper the GLK is than both of them. It used to be a given that any MB would be several thousand more than an Audi or BMW. Not anymore.
I would not want the Cayman if it was a daily driver as getting in and out is tight but if you can rotate it among a few cars it is the perfect toy. Plus it outperforms most 911's at autocross or track days due to how much better balanced the car is. Even a novice track driver like myself can perform much better with a car like this, you gotta give it a try. :shades:
Do you have the sport seats? That would explain your shoulders being a bit too wide for the driver's seat. I have read they can be uncomfortably narrow.
I have the wife's VW for heavy duty practicality, so the Cayman would suit me just fine.
So, because of your timely, encouraging post, looks like I will pay Porsche a visit this week to try the power seats.
I have a feeling the answer to Capital One's "What's in your wallet?" as it pertains to me soon enough, thanks to Porsche will be:
NOTHING!!!
Not really. Don't be fooled by the GLK's base price. Try using the online configurator sometime, and you will see that the standard GLK is overly stripped, and the essential options and accessories add up really fast and really big. Then add on some of the extra niceties, and the GLK becomes waaaaaaay overpriced. That's why some of the dealers are struggling with the loaded GLKs in their inventory. They are just too damned expensive.
TM
But that's just what I did, and it was still way cheaper. I even added the $1.5K or so "universal media something or other", whatever that does, and I ended up with a GLK for a little over $46K. Even if I opted to spend hundreds of dollars on ridiculous things like illuminated door sills, or chrome fog lights and door handle pulls, it would still be tough to crack $48K. Loading up the X3 and Q5 gets you closer to $52K.
True, the stripped versions of MB products are plainer than ever, and some options cost more than in competitors or are not available at all. However even after you add those options it still cost less than BMW and Audi (except perhaps the S class and above).
Downsides are obvious though: the interior materials now suck really bad it makes BMW seem very luxurious, plus the aforementioned lack of features (both standard and optional), and perhaps its just me, but the lack of design improvement is also part of it IMO.
I wonder if MB is (involuntarily, given the reputation of unrealibility, overpricing, etc) taking the path to become the new "value" player of the trio.... it'll be interesting to watch.
I still find it hard to believe that Mercedes is comparitively and significantly cheaper than BMW or Audi. I guess I'll have to check the configurators of all three marques and do a comparison. Unfortunately, I can't get to it until next week, but I will do so.
I still see VW as the German "value"... not Mercedes,
TM
Regards,
OW
Maybe he just loves his porsche and doesn't care even if it isn't comfortable.
Well, thanks to clembo's recent encouraging post, I paid Porsche a visit this morning, tried the power driver's seat and found I had as much legroom as I have in my 328i, which is too say, generous. However, I found the seat a bit too much on the firm side. I was quite glad to get back to my BMW's sport seat.
TM is correct. A long journey in the Cayman would have to be accompanied by my chiropractor in the passenger seat. The seat really was rock-hard. Not too great for sciatica sufferers. However, I imagine this is what one should expect in a serious driver's car. No falling asleep on that seat!
Also, the steering wheel is a bit low and far away for my most comfortable seating position adjustment. I have never driven any vehicle with the steering wheel that low. Yes, I tilted and telescoped, but that was the best I could do.
The rear window is very sloped and small. Backing up in a parking lot could be adventurous.
But given all the negatives, the Cayman IS a car that people tend to drop what they are doing and stare at. I find it to be incredibly good looking. Very few on the road where I live in Florida. I'm sure California is more the land of the Cayman.
I did not ask to drive one. I do the preliminary work first. I'm sure driving one would make me forget the other stuff. That's not the way I do it. Driving will come next time, assuming there will be a next time.