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  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    The latest (June) issue of Consumer Reports, which arrived in yesterday's mail, covers what CR calls "upscale sports sedans". Their clear favorite: the Infiniti G37, followed by the Caddy CTS, Acura TSX, Lexus IS 250, Audi A4 & the Volkswagen CC. Bringing up the rear are the BMW 328i, the MB C300 & finally the Saab 9-3.

    The Infiniti is out in front by a wide margin, according to CR. The next 5 cars (Caddy through VW) are more or less tied for 2nd place.

    Just thought I'd toss this out for the benefit of the many CR fans here.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    That's why the G stays at the top of my list near the 135i. I rate it as the best value out there that doesn't burn your eyes out when you look at it!

    The CTS is a dead-cat bounce until the new owners get their Certificate of Occupancy in Detroit...new BoD, CEO and nameplate lineup coming soon...

    No Caddy for me!....NEXT!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    We absolutely love our G35. The car is a heck of a value and delivers on all fronts.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Infiniti is doing a fine job. They are getting closer to 3 Series performance but I would still take the 335i over the G37 if money was no object. I realize for many folks it is.

    I would have no reservation about choosing an Infiniti M45 over a BMW 535i, however.

    For those of you who recently brought home one of those incredible, spanking new Pontiac G8 GXP's...
    you have my condolences. One of the great American muscle car divisions bites the dust. :(
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Excellent and here's to many fun and safe miles to you in that G. NICE!

    Regards,
    OW
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Infiniti is out in front by a wide margin, according to CR. The next 5 cars (Caddy through VW) are more or less tied for 2nd place.

    CR loves the G and M. The G is rated their top overall "upscale" sedan, and the M is their second best luxury sedan, just below the Lexus LS. If I were shopping in the entry lux class, I would have to go with the S4, despite its considerable price tag.

    I still really like the G, especially now that it has a 7-speed automatic, and if the S4 was out of my price range, it would definitely be my choice.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I would have no reservation about choosing an Infiniti M45 over a BMW 535i, however.

    As good as the M currently is, I think the next one is going to be much better. Infiniti is promising a significantly improved and more luxurious interior, and the 7-speed automatic will be available across the board. The M37 may also have close to 350hp. There also might not be an M50, a hybrid version may take the place of the V8. I'm very curious to see how that turns out.
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    Well, thanks to clembo's recent encouraging post, I paid Porsche a visit this morning, tried the power driver's seat and found I had as much legroom as I have in my 328i, which is too say, generous. However, I found the seat a bit too much on the firm side

    Okay, doesn't sound like comfortable.

    The seat really was rock-hard. Not too great for sciatica sufferers. However, I imagine this is what one should expect in a serious driver's car. No falling asleep on that seat

    Rock hard seats :surprise: For a luxurious car :confuse:

    Also, the steering wheel is a bit low and far away for my most comfortable seating position adjustment. I have never driven any vehicle with the steering wheel that low. Yes, I tilted and telescoped, but that was the best I could do.

    The rear window is very sloped and small. Backing up in a parking lot could be adventurous.


    Yikes, sounds like a car for people who are 5'10 or less, too much sacrifice to get the so called fun to drive car.

    Whats the use of good looks if you aren't comfortable in it :confuse:
  • clemboclembo Member Posts: 253
    I'm glad you fit in the power seat, and yes I agree they are the firmest seats that I've ever sat in. This is why I mentioned that as much as I love my Cayman, it is best suited as part of a rotation of cars.

    I also agree that the rear visibility is compromised and you must be very careful, I actually tend to never back up in parking lots with my car, and rarely is it in parking lots. Other compromises are the price $$$, you can buy fun for less, but not as much fun. Porsche electronics are not cutting edge, and the car will attract as many stares from cops as it does from everyone else you drive by.

    Life is full of compromises, we are each only given a short time to enjoy ourselves and leave behind an effort to make other's lives better. If you follow that theory, and have the financial means and lifestyle flexibility to have an expensive toy, the Cayman is pure joy. It is like a great rum cake, it will not be for all people and should be enjoyed in moderation, but when it is, nothing else compares. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Infiniti is an amazing company. Their cars look good and perform well for a fair price. I sincerely hope they never go out of business. They continue to keep BMW working hard.

    The best brakes I have ever experienced were in a 2006 M45....of course I haven't driven a Cayman yet. :)

    By the way while I have you here, LG, I told my friend about your head phone set up. He listened politely and told me he can't do it because he recently put around $15k into a special piano that plays some kind of CD's as if a real virtuoso pianist was actually playing that piano in his living room-I guess the next modern step forward from player piano rolls. I must go over and hear it.
    His neighbors are going to love him for that! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Well, Porsche is more a serious performance car company than a luxury vehicle producer. You buy Porsche for the badge, you will regret it! You want luxury in a Porsche, you will pay dearly for it. They make BMW look like bargain basement!
    It seems most folks who order Caymans are quite satisfied with the manual seats, a 9 speaker bose radio and rain-sensing washers-all yours for only $55,000 for the Base to around $65,000 for the Cayman S....pretty much for the basic colors of yellow, black, white and red. What Mr. bmlexus? Did I hear you say you have a fondness for cobalt blue? Why for only $3000, you can be cheerfully accommodated! :surprise:
    So if you go nuts checking off options, the Base can easily hit $70k and the CS, $80k.

    You want incentives and discounts on a new Cayman? I'll leave a light on for you! :)

    By the way, you do make a lot of excellent points and if the Cayman fever that I have intensifies to almost being out of control, I will go back to your post and read it over many times! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    I can't believe there can be such a difference in available legroom moving from manual to power seats. I don't think the first sales guy at the other Porsche place made the slightest effort to help me adjust the manual seat. He started off by saying..."Well, 6'2" is really the absolute limit"...as if he didn't want to help me. He should have suggested that I try a power seat. Not exactly Porsche Premier salesman of the year! :)

    Ahh...once you transpose the meaning of driving the Cayman in terms of rum cake, now I truly understand! The Cayman must be an absolute joy to drive! ;)

    Even if I take a pass on the Cayman, I can't complain. I have been "unemployed" and financially independent since 1996. I've had a good life-great wife; driving many wonderful cars; going where I want, when I want; learning a lot from you and so many others on Edmunds. It has indeed been a blast! :)
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Although I'm a BMW fan/owner, I also like the G. I'm impressed that a car that was introduced just 6 years ago & is only in its 2nd generation compares favorably to one that's been around for 30 years & has gone through several generations.

    What's kept me from buying a G is my strong preference for sticks. According to everything that I've read about the car, its manual transmission is neither fun nor easy to drive smoothly. But I'm of a certain age now, & my knees are beginning to talk to me. If my next car must have (gasp!) a slushbox, then it will probably be an Infiniti.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Rock hard seats For a luxurious car

    The Cayman is a sports car - aimed at those who value speed & superb handling over luxury. There are better choices for those for whom luxury is more important.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    LOL the Cayman's gone ballistic with pricing, I see.

    As for the G taking top honors, I see no surprises there. In Japan Nissan receives the most respect among car companies, far ahead of Honda (the runner up) and Toyota (not even as respected as one might expect). Worse yet, there are rumors that Toyota brought the Lexus brand to Japan's market to regain public confidence it constantly lose over the years. Plus Japan's princes and princesses ride around in Nissan Fuga (Infiniti M in our speak), so I guess there's no reason to doubt Nissan now. :shades:
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    The Cayman is a sports car - aimed at those who value speed & superb handling over luxury. There are better choices for those for whom luxury is more important.

    But still, sports car with rock hard seats :surprise:

    If thats how speed and handing is the way to get, good luck to all those who wants it.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    135 with all the goodies goes for over $40k in my area. Nothing "value" about that. OTOH, a loaded C350 with all the goodies can be had for $44k. Try getting an A4 or 335i for the same ammount.

    I'm not sure I agree about VW, the Passat 3.6 cost almost $40k when loaded, and the Touareg and Tiguan, while aren;t expensive, aren't cheap either.
  • ryannewsryannews Member Posts: 4
    image

    How does it look?
    I think the korean netizen’s design capability is incredible. Photoshop skill too.

    *source: hyundaibuzz.com - All about Hyundai
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Infiniti is an amazing company. Their cars look good and perform well for a fair price. I sincerely hope they never go out of business. They continue to keep BMW working hard.

    I agree, I'm a big fan of Infiniti's cars. The trucks, not so much. They almost got the EX right, and then blew it on the rear seats. Too bad, otherwise its a pretty good value loaded to the gills at $46K, with the best interior of any current Infiniti. I think they're going to stick around, though their expansion into Europe is going to be tough.

    $15K player piano huh? I think I'll let my Pearls handle that. They do a very convincing impersonation of a Steinway or Bösendorfer, or a cello, violin, sax, or any other instrument. They can put Miles or Coltrane in the room with me, or Keith and Mick, or the London symphony orchestra. You've got to love that. :shades:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    According to everything that I've read about the car, its manual transmission is neither fun nor easy to drive smoothly. But I'm of a certain age now, & my knees are beginning to talk to me. If my next car must have (gasp!) a slushbox, then it will probably be an Infiniti.

    Indeed, the 6MT version of the car has been pretty much universally described as awful. Why not try going to a dual-clutch sequential gearbox? No clutch pedal to deal with, but you still get more of the manual experience than with any automatic, paddles or no.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not sure I agree about VW, the Passat 3.6 cost almost $40k when loaded, and the Touareg and Tiguan, while aren;t expensive, aren't cheap either.

    Well, VW is the least expensive way to buy German, but the cars are not great values when compared to Japanese rivals like Mazda or Nissan. When you combine that with VW's bottom of the barrel reliability...
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    LG, speaking about speakers, I've left a message on your CarSpace e-mail.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    "$15K player piano"

    Still waiting for an invite to see it in action. Maybe his neighbors already threw him out. Houses too close together.

    I don't see too many Infiniti vehicles down here, but when I do it's usually a "cool" young person driving a G. Seems like just as many Hyundai's on the road as Hondas. Astonishing growth in just the past five years or so. Quite a few Nissan Altima's too.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Amazing photoshop skills indeed. I wouldn't recognize it were it not for the slight distortion on the window frame and the unmatched reflection on the windows.

    Not sure I'd ever like it, but at least Hyundai has finally caught my attention with the Genesis coupe. Great? No, but good enough, especially when you consider the price (barely pricier than the less interesting looking Civic coupe)
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Likewise, most Infiniti drivers in my area are in their 30s, very few of them are on their 40s or beyond. Not so surprised, considering Infiniti's focus on sports before luxury.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I agree that the G35 is a good car. However, the value front it delivers tend to reflect the average dealership experience, IMHO.
    The Nissan GT-R is a good example of how good Nissan cars can be in term of performance. They show that their awd system beats Audi's and Porsche's, and GT-R overall high speed performance make the R8 and the 911 feel less than stable. For all that, at half of the competitor prices, it's still getting no respect from the traditional sports car crowds.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    When they become a little less "cool", they can move on up to the Infiniti M, which I believe is Infiniti's best vehicle. I considered getting one in 2005 and may perhaps do so again in a few years to be used as a vehicle that my wife and I can both share.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I've owned three Porsches. The real truth is that the seats are a mixed bag. They do an excellent job of providing support and stability, yet they are never very good for the back, particularly on long drives. The Porsche seats' outstanding support doesn't mean that they necessarily offer much in the way of orthopedic benefit.

    They do a wonderful job of securing the driver in place, but any long drive will require plenty of Advil and a chiropractor.

    As a side note, yesterday, I drove my BMW 135i to LA from NorCal. It is equipped with the Sport seats option. After 5.5 hours of straight driving, I feel fine... and no back pain. That's not a test drive...it's not chit-chat... and it's not speculation... that's real proof.

    TM
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    The Cayman chair was the hardest I ever sat in. The 328i sport seat is much better, offering supreme comfort, support and bolstering when needed.
    The sport seats in the 328i and 135i are probably the same.

    From the April 2009 C&D comparo of sport coupes involving the 135i:
    "The seats were the best of the group, supportive when the g-loads were coming at odd angles, comfortable for the long haul. Wouldn't it be great if BMW specified seats for the entire industry?"

    The BMW sport seats are that good. Anybody who hasn't driven a BMW sport-packaged vehicle is really missing out on one terrific seat. :)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I get treated very well and get a G loaner all the time. It's not Lexus or MB but it's not all that far behind, and certainly ahead of Acura.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    I agree, M is indeed Infiniti's best vehicle (hey, it's Japan's royal family's chariot). My one and only issue with the M is the looks. It's somewhat too chunky and conservative imo, especially the front end. At first glance I see it as similar to G's, but a longer look shows the "old" look and feel to it. Too bad as it really spoils what otherwise is the best midsize luxo-performance sedan imo.

    2001gs430, I have no idea what kind of service you get at your local Infiniti, but so far all Infiniti dealers I visited gave me top notch service. Well, not as good as Lexus or Audi, but way above other competitors'.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    To me, anyway, the M looks better now than it did when redesigned for the 2006 model year. I tend to favor conservative designs, the Cayman being the rare exception. I had trouble with the 2006 M tail light design. I like it better now, but IMO, it still needs a bit of work. Anyway, surely not a deal breaker. When I'm ready to move back up to a larger sporty sedan, the M will be at the top of my list.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    They show that their awd system beats Audi's and Porsche's, and GT-R overall high speed performance make the R8 and the 911 feel less than stable. For all that, at half of the competitor prices, it's still getting no respect from the traditional sports car crowds.

    Because they are STILL in shock and awe and are reacting like hurt little children! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I've driven 44K miles in the BMW sport seat. Phenomenal AFAIC.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    LG, speaking about speakers, I've left a message on your CarSpace e-mail.

    Yes, I've been meaning to get back to you on that, but I kept getting side tracked. Sorry about that. I'll have something for you ASAP.
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Thanks, LG. I'm not in a hurry nor wanting you to hurry up. I just wanted to know if my e-mail to your CarSpace got noticed.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    I don't even own an Infiniti product, so I was not referring to service experience. I tried the G35, C300, briefly leased a 328 before settled on my current IS. The sales/show room experience had me thinking the G35 was marketed as a Nissan and not a luxury entry. With that said, my Audi show room experience was the worst, the sales rep at the dealer I visited did not even offer a test drive. Perhaps he knew the old A4 were out matched by others in segment at the time.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    the Cayman IS a car that people tend to drop what they are doing and stare at. I find it to be incredibly good looking

    It is the best looking Porsche in the current line up.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    "It is the best looking Porsche in the current line up."

    I agree.

    However, after sitting in a Cayman for the second time and experiencing some of the car's cockpit weaknesses, my enthusiasm has been curbed a bit. I would still like to drive one to see what the fuss is all about.

    One positive: I found getting in and out of the Cayman to be easy, despite reading about "drop in" entry and "climb out" exit. Getting out of the 545i was tougher.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Well... That simply depends upon the dealer.

    We get more red carpet treatment from our Acura dealer than Mercedes and Lexus combined.

    BMW dealer here is also clearly better than Mercedes and Lexus.

    TM
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Well, fairly speaking all Infinitis are sold as Nissans elsewhere :P , jk, I agree with Tag, it really depends on dealer experience.

    Hpowders, I didn't like the pre-refresh M either. The refresh fixed the oldness a bit, but the front end still needs improvement IMO. Personal taste varies, indeed.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well... That simply depends upon the dealer.

    Absolutely. There are two Audi/Porsche shops in my area, one is good, one not so much. The Lexus dealer is combined with Toyota and Scion. Lexus gets its own half of the building, but its not any nicer than the Toyota part. The BMW shop is decent, better than M-B and Acura. The Jag dealer looks the most upscale, but service there has been hit and miss.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    "The front end still needs improvement"

    When you sit inside the M, one can be a bit more forgiving of the outside. :)

    I would take a pass on the 5 speed V8 325 HP M45 and go for the 7 speed A/T 303 HP V6 M35 which has plenty of power and is a better buy.

    If and when I ever decide to move back to a larger sedan, the 7 speed Infiniti M35 will be the vehicle I test first.
  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    We get more red carpet treatment from our Acura dealer than Mercedes and Lexus combined.

    If it's the same Lexus dealer I think it is, then I'm not surprised in the least. I found their service department experience a long second to the Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealer we used when we had the Town & Country. As for their sales staff, well, I don't forgive mis- or disinformation. For a salesperson to tell me that no sport package would be available because of all the "sporty improvements" made to the IS350 while handing me a brochure outlining the features/benefits of the sport package tells all the story needed. I can accept "I'm not sure, let me check" with relative confidence, but that kind of used-car lot antic sets me off.

    I'm curious to see how the Audi stand works out for my services with the TTS. The sales experience was very good, even if the weather prolonged the wait for the delivery...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I never liked the looks of the M. The G got better but not the M IMHO. I assume the dependability allows one to overlook the look! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    AFAIC, my recent experience with BMW was top shelf. Audi and Infiniti were a step down in my area. Never shopped Merc or Porsche.

    Regards,
    OW
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    The M has a more conservative look because Infiniti designed it for the more reserved upscale professional in his 40's and 50's.

    The G seeks the 20's-30's age group and hence, the vehicle is designed to be a touch more flamboyant-looking.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Based on my recent experiences at two Porsche dealerships, they are among the worst. Two dour, unenthusiastic salesman, who seemed to be making a terrific effort to get off their fat asses and help me.

    I drive up in a BMW, walk into both Porsche stores, am the only potential customer in each case, express interest in the Cayman.... yet neither guy offers me a test drive. Not very eager and aggressive.

    Last October when I went BMW shopping, the sales guy showed me various 335i's, 328i's and 135i's, every which one he told me I could drive. It seemed like the guy was prepared to spend the entire day with me to find a BMW to make me happy. The guy was patient and aggressive and he made his sale.

    If I ever go back to a Porsche store, it will be to a Porsche Premier dealer-one of the top 100 Porsche dealers in the country. Surprise... neither Porsche store I visited made the list! :)
  • clemboclembo Member Posts: 253
    H - I actually think that geography has a bit to do with the attitude of some of these sales people. I have a place about 100 miles south of you and took my car into Ft Myers BMW for service a few weeks ago, well I know I posted my impression of the new 7 from that visit but I did see three sales guys leaning on the reception counter and not moving very quickly when I walked in. Now I'm not currently in the market for a sedan as I got a new one in the fall but I was curious about the new 7, but after seeing those dolts, I would not drop $90K with any of them or in that dealership.

    I guess I might be stereotyping people in that geography as lazy or uninterested, we both know that the economy there is hit as hard or harder than most places in the US and they all may feel a bit down. But many of us who have succeeded in our ventures probably can attest to how much a positive, can do attitude combined with some intelligence and talent made much of the difference.

    Companies like Porsche and BMW should be auditing their dealers now, not waiting for things to turn around. Make changes now and they will be better able to convince people like us on this board to part with a bunch of cash for their products. Apathy will not help them, not matter how fast it does 0-60.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Thanks for the compliment.! I keep telling my wife I think young! I'll reserve the "reserved" for my 80's and 90's, thanks!

    Regards,
    OW
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