Luxury Lounge

dewey

I live and work amidst stop and go traffic and so far I have always purchased manual cars.

My six year old son wants to learn manual but my daughter doesn't. I still have time to persuade her since she is only eight years old.

dewey

Howard,

who needs taxes and surcharges when you have the markets?

About 85 percent of oil/gas reserves are owned by nationalized oil companies. And it so happens that most these nationalized oil companies are in hostile dictatorship countries whose objective is to make fuel scarce and expensive for North Americans.

With such a situation high fuel prices will exist without higher taxes.

hpowders

Well, Dewey, they did that big time in the 1970's and it caused an economic collapse over here. I remember lining up on even or odd days for gas with irate motorists lined up around the block idling and hence, wasting more precious fuel and an economic slowdown resulting in the 2 worst years in the US stock market (1973 and 1974) since the depression. The USA has apparently learned little from that crisis.

A surcharge to forcibly implement conservation and the modifications of the manufacturers that will result is a way to avoid this from happening again.

I believe it is always best to take sound preventive measures than to deal with a crisis when you are in the middle of one.

designman

I remember lining up on even or odd days for gas with irate motorists lined up around the block...

Yes I think the first year of the crises was 1973 and as you will recall it also happened in 1979. What I find amazing as that the average price of gas was as low as $1.13 in 2002 and in 1980 the average for the year was $1.22.

tagman

Let me go on record as saying that I do not endorse the idea of deliberately raising fuel prices because it is a hardship on too many folks. Many of us here in this Luxury Lounge forum do not experience the impact of high fuel prices to the same level that many others do... it hurts them. I do not wish to see hard-working people get hurt like that.

Now to make a point about the impact of high prices, I will also point out that California is proof that higher prices make a difference. But, again, it hurts a lot of people. Our fuel prices are about the highest in our country and we also have a trend here towards smaller fuel efficient cars. Some people need to do that for financial reasons due to the high price of fuel, and others do it because they believe it is the right thing to do.

There are many fuel stations here that are charging near $4.00/gallon for premium. Diesel is closer to $3/gallon. Some of the stations that charge a lot less than average have lines for gas.

BTW, The reason for the higher prices here is partly due to hefty state gas taxes.

TagMan

tagman

Thanks Tag! However, interestingly enough, there was also this amazing article yesterday talking about the Prius getting 125 mpg with the new battery technology.

You're welcome. My perspective on this is that Toyota was working with a LI battery approach that didn't work out as well as they had hoped, and additionally, they probably have come to realize that there is quite likely a better approach than the one they were working with... such as the one you referenced by your link. Therefore it is better to wait, and use the best battery system available. It is in their best interest, as well as all their customer's best interest, even if it means a delay... better in the long run.

TagMan

hpowders

You could line up for 4 hours and by the time you were 3 cars from the front, they would put up a sign "out of fuel."

bristol2

Part of that additional cost is also due to limited production of the special CA formluated gas.

Do you think that the special formulations will go away with the EPA moving to the CA regulations?

hpowders

As far as the hardship goes, the surcharge can be phased in gradually, say 50 cents at first with gradual yearly increases to get folks prepared for the new word, "sacrifice."

If the plan is a multi-year phase-in with gradual surcharge increases and with monetary penalties for automakers who don't provide all of their vehicles with a minimum 35 mpg EPA combined, say 3 years from the initial date of implementation, I don't see the hardship on too many folks. They will eventually be driving more fuel efficient vehicles, since that's all that will be out there, so the amount they spend on fuel would be pretty much the same.

Those who protest are too young to have experienced the gas lines of the 1970's. It's just a matter of time before it happens again.

tagman

Part of that additional cost is also due to limited production of the special CA formluated gas.

Do you think that the special formulations will go away with the EPA moving to the CA regulations?

Yes, we have the seasonal formula with increased ethanol as I understand it, and it does increase the price... at least that's the excuse we hear every year.

As far as the special formulations ever going away... I haven't read enough about the EPA's and California's similarities. Heck, the EPA just lost that big lawsuit that they placed against the State of California, so I don't know if there is any cooperation between the EPA and California, or if the EPA will try to one-up the State, or if it's just a matter of getting regulations that finally converge.

I'll look into this a bit more. If I learn anything significant or interesting, I'll let you know.

TagMan

houdini1

HP you sound like you are longing for the bad old Jimmy Carter days. Increased fuel taxes sounds like something he would propose. IMO this is very, very, wrong headed.

As Tag said, many people are already being hurt by high gas prices. I would modify your idea so that all those who think higher gas taxes is a good idea would just voluntarily pay $10. or $12. a gal. It would sure help the rest of us out.

tayl0rd

As far as the hardship goes, the surcharge can be phased in gradually, say 50 cents at first with gradual yearly increases...

Do you also propose an increase in the minimum wage (or wages overall?)

...a multi-year phase-in with gradual surcharge increases and with monetary penalties for automakers who don't provide all of their vehicles with a minimum 35 mpg EPA combined, say 3 years from the initial date of implementation...

I like that plan, but it would be as I mentioned. Fuel tanks would become miniscule in size as well as an increase in smaller, less powerful cars. Geo Metro, anyone? It might lead to a complete phase out of V8s in a "car" altogether and probably put a nasty dent in V6s, too. Pretty scary stuff.

hpowders

Since the 1970's energy crisis and economic depression that almost came with it, we are in the same boat we were in then. Nothing has been learned and we are vulnerable to terrorists or someone like Chavez crippling our economy by setting fire to or greatly reducing our oil supply. We must wean ourselves away from foreign oil dependence, and a gasoline surcharge will eventually do that. Nobody said sacrifice is easy. We cannot continue with the status quo.

I'm not happy with this proposal either. I'm not getting an Edmunds Gasoline Surcharge Discount Card. Collectively we must fight back. That's all I'm saying.

dewey

Those who protest are too young to have experienced the gas lines of the 1970's. It's just a matter of time before it happens again.

Well what if that 1970's situation happens again? In the long run such a crisis would be good for our economy.

A energy crisis will promote conservation far faster than any tax. As Designman had noted fuel prices did not move up much for two decades. Why? Because the US economy became less fuel dependent as a result of high gas prices in the early 80s/70s.

The best way to learn conservation is by higher market prices. We dont need tax authorities to expropriate our wealth as a conservation lesson. Also as Tagman had pointed out a gasoline tax is regressive. It will hit the pocketbooks most of poor people who can least afford it.

snapcracklepop

I agree. Its scary when you really think how dependant we are on oil. I remember when they did a report after 9-11 about what would happen if the terrorist somehow hurt out oil supply. Bottom line... it wasn't pretty.

hpowders

I'm really surprised at all the dissent around here. A surcharge is a logical way to stick it to our enemies and avoid a serious crisis.

We are extremely vulnerable to oil field sabotage as well as oil price and supply manipulation.

If you were a terrorist organization, would you rather bomb a subway train or set fire to an oil field in order to hurt the USA?

It's too bad we didn't take the threat seriously after the energy crisis of the 1970's. Seems we learned nothing.

houdini1

To my recollection there has yet to be an instance where a country taxed its people into prosperity.

hpowders

I guess you can congratulate yourself on coming up with such a witty phrase, but it doesn't alter the situation at hand: we are totally at the mercy of foreign oil.

The only way to change this is to put a serious surcharge on the fuel. This will force the auto manufacturers to produce fuel-efficient vehicles, something that is 35 years overdue, and make consumers see the wisdom of driving such vehicles a part of their permanent mindset, not just something to consider in the summer driving season to be easily forgotten in the following winter.

houdini1

There are plenty of fuel efficient vehicles out there. If you really want to do your part and sacrifice just get rid of that V8 BMW and buy yourself a Corolla or Prius. That way you can feel good about yourself without affecting me.

hpowders

"Without affecting me."

Are you joking? It affects all of us.

I want to see the day when all vehicles have the EPA rating of a Prius. Should have been done by now. We must get away from foreign oil dependency. Won't you join me on my quest? :shades:

hpowders

Dewey, my friend, with all due respect, you are missing my point.

I will not give up my BMW for a Prius either, nor should anyone else.

I'm saying regulations should be in place to force all auto manufacturers that sell vehicles here to reach an EPA mpg benchmark of say 35 mpg combined, for all their manufactured vehicles, whether it's a BMW 550i or a Toyota Corolla. If they can't be forced by regulation to do this, then a gradually increasing federal gasoline surcharge will achieve this.

You should be able to purchase your BMW knowing it is the most fuel efficient vehicle possible, and IMO, diesel technology will be crucial in seeing this through.

dewey

I see your point.

But it has to be the individual choice of the buyer. Forcing car companies to develop fuel efficient cars when there is little demand for them does not make much sense.

I will trade in my BMW for a Prius tomorrow if a crisis happens. Conservationism is something that we are jolted into. It is rarely chosen. That is why environmentalists are a minority in our excessive consumption society.

hpowders

I don't see why "goals" for fuel efficiency couldn't be put in place. It's for the greater good, I believe.

laurasdada

I rewarded myself this year with a new Hybrid bicycle (no, not Prius-hybrid like!). The CBD of my town (ok, bank, Post Office and Starbucks. That's about it...!) is a little more than a mile away. No more quick trips in the TL. Hop on the Gary Fischer and away I go (queue the witch music from, "The Wizard of Oz:" Do do do do dooh do..).

I believe that it is the short trips in the honkin' big V8 & V6s that kill mpg and contribute substantially more to pollution than 30+mpg road trips in my ULEV TL!

houdini1

Now that is the way to conserve!!

hpowders

The point is that all big V8's and V6's should be made more fuel efficient. Why should anyone have to settle for a Prius if they want some fun?

Why aren't TL's and 550i's getting 35 mpg?

Diesels can and will get it done.

houdini1

Diesels can and will get it done.

Now you're talking. That's what a lot of us are waiting for.

bristol2

That is a great solution. With the high price of performance bikes, it would certainly fit under the Luxury Lounge also!

hpowders

Diesels will help; NDAI.

tagman

I will trade in my BMW for a Prius tomorrow if a crisis happens.

There wouldn't be nearly enough Prius vehicles available to meet the demand in such a situation.

BTW, part of the solution you are all posting about is synfuel. We are not dependent on foreign oil because they are the only ones with the energy we need. We are dependent because the oil suppliers have used the "price of oil vs. alternatives" to their advantage. Now that they are flirting with prices that are just short of truly encouraging alternatives, we suddenly see the merit in those alternatives.

Synfuel resources are plentiful here for at least a century or more. that would buy us more than enough time to develop even better alternatives. Additionally, the entire infrastructure to distribute synfuel is already in place. It's not difficult to produce, either. Diesel engines burn it easily. How about THAT!?

I posted an interesting blurb about the Audi diesel burning synfuel with its diesel engine a few days ago, and I don't think anyone replied.

I'll post it again here, along with the Wikipedia simplified explanation of synfuel.

Ultra-Clean A8 Diesel Runs on Shell Synfuel

Synthetic Fuel - Wikipedia

TagMan

blkhemi

The Maserati, as much as I hate to say it, is one of those cars similar to the Jaguar XJ: A beautiful peace of machinery that is just too obscure. But sometimes, obscurity isn't such a bad thing, i.e. Audi A8.

I absolutely love driving it, especially with the tranny upgrade. And the sumptuous smell of Italian leather is something even Audi can't compete with(altho slightly with it's Lambo biz...)

The Automatica version has really spruced the vehicle up. Just what the doctor ordered.

But as you said, I just can't come to terms of buying one. Before purchasing the S8, my wife and I were seriously cross-shopping it, but it just couldn't muster the cut. We tried again with the S600, again, a no go.

But I do have a neighbor(the one with the near perfect Jag E-type) that has one with the DuoSelect, and upon driving another friend of ours QP of the weekend, he is now on order to get the new Automatica.

I guess it's just one of those things. There are only 3 members(myself included) that love Audi cars, 2 of which have A8's, Tony and I. Most here wouldn't dare buy one, so I definetely know how it feels to be in the minority.

So for the fortunate few that has actually bought the QP, they have nothing else to want for.

anthonyp

Hi TaylOrd

For me the whole point of what I posted, is that we all have a problem with the enviromental consequences that is taking place...Like Howard I have been through the economic turmoil created by shortages--and it isn`t fun....The manufacturers have let us down, and there is opposition from the BIG oil companies to protect their turf--even to the detriment of the U.S...Interesting how U. S . is also us..
I think some of your points are good one, such as SUV and trucks only being available in diesel form....but right now we need some guidance from somewhere(probably a tough minded government)to get us started on the right road.....No one wants rationing, or coupons, so the only way I can think of is a surcharge, and alot of government encouragement for alternatives....Certainly high prices hurt lower income people, and I for one don`t want to hurt anyone, but just like the garbage collectors, my trash is just like yours, and we both need to get it disposed of...The price of anything has an ability to self ration itself....Tony

tagman

blkhemi,
I have a very high regard for Audi vehicles. If one were to hit the sweet spot at the right time, I would have no reservations about buying one.

I have no doubt that the upcoming R8 will leave me drooling at times, even though I own a Carrera.

The Q7 will get my close examination when it is available in California with a diesel, and it will compete against the GL, which I admittedly like better in terms of its overall execution.

The S8 was one of the most exciting sedans of the International Auto Show, IMO, and I reported that back to everyone in my post after the show.

I often see Audi convertibles scampering around town, and they always get a second look from me.

I just posted a little earlier about the Audi diesel that successfully burns synfuel, once again proving its merit.

I have posted in favor of Audi MANY times on this thread historically.

True, I don't own one now, but as I said, I would have no reservations to owning one in the future, if the situation was right.

TagMan

tagman

I'm truly gald to see that practically everyone on the forum is in agreement about the merits of diesels.

The next couple of years will be lighting this place up like a Christmas tree. So much is about to happen.

TagMan

hpowders

"I have been through the economic turmoil created by shortages-and it isn't fun..."

Those were the days, eh Tony? I will never forget having to line up on even or odd days for a precious few gallons of gas, praying by the time it was my turn, the fuel wouldn't run out. :surprise:
What a horror story! Here we are 35 years later and not much has changed.

There is no doubt in my mind that those here who foolishly make light of so serious a situation, never experienced what we did. Of course, It could easily happen again.

Some of the country's most distinguished economists and columnists support our idea of a surcharge, Tony. It really is the best solution, albeit, the most painful.

In the meantime, a serious conversion to diesel technology is crucial and the sooner, the better! :shades:

laurasdada

HP, my well intentioned friend: My TL does get ~35mpg on the highway. If I can keep it under 80 (OK, maybe under 70?)! Quick trip to the Cape this weekend. Started having filled the tank the prior day: 40 miles on the trip odo, average mpg was 22mpg @ avg. of 24mph (commute). Next day: 80 miles to Cape destination and my avg. mph was up to 49mph and my mpg was up to 29mpg! Had I continued along the highway, the mpg would have easily crested 30mpg...

Of course, a 2-3 mile quick round trip to the bank would probably net me 15mpg??? Hence, the (well short of "Luxury Lounge" pricing) new bike.

And to all those dissin' the PT Cruiser (or any "entry level-ish" car). Remember, for the $$$ and what it is, it's a pretty decent piece of machinery. I get the feeling that some here have forgotten that one man's "piece of junk" is another man's pride and joy, first new car! The PT is not an XK, S550, 997/911, A8 or even an XLR! (OK, again I threw in the XLR to see if there are other comments. Not that the endless "My diesel can pummel your hybrid in the year 2525 while Fuel Cell Gyro cars can only hover above and watch..." discussions aren't constantly converting non-believers to the other side... ).

houdini1

It would be interesting to see how everyone would vote on HP's idea of a surcharge.

My vote: NO.

My reasoning: It would be like giving up. There are just too many better ways to whip this thing. Good old free market forces and Yankee ingenuity will see us thru.

I went thru the 70's also and that whole decade was great. The great gas shortage of the 70's was a non event.

anthonyp

Hi Howard

Back in those days, I think the price of gas went up to sixty or sixty five cents fairly quickly...No one really understood how energy was involved in everything so it was just a bunch of complaining....Then it got to where there wasn`t any in some of the smaller communities...I remember one evening coming back to the house and being almost out of gas..Stopped in a station and asked if he had some gas...No was the first answer, and after some bartering he sold me fifteen gallons at a dollar fifty apiece....Now that was a shocking amount of money, and from that point on I learned about energy, and how rationing doesn`t work....In this case i am concerned about the volume of fuel being burned and the projected consequences....i sure hope a combination of things like price, more efficient engines (like diesel or hybred) and some rules (government) will make the difference.... If not come join me in the mountains , as our places will be under water... Tony

laurasdada

A quick "Nay" from me, also. I believe that it would just be too financially painful for the folks working for the folks that make six figure income (the other 90% of the population?). It's bad enough that the oil cos, Middle-East dictators and Hugo Chavez (et. al.) are making life ever more difficult for us five figure earners, but to have our own government do it (even more!) to us just seems un-American (anti-capitalistic, free-market, laissez-faire...). Just one workin'stiff's opinion.

blkhemi

Tag, you know I appreciate your sentiment.

You and LG are two of the few exceptions when it comes to Audi. Most here are for or against, whereas the two of you like the product and is willing to accept Audi for what it is, different.

The same with me. Even though it has some blunders that still have me scratching my head, I still love BMW as a car company. It's doing something right to maintain some of the best profit margins and customer retainability in the biz.

I can even take Lexus sometimes bitterness with the sweet. You just can't ignore some of their advancements in the business. And to err on the side of caution for the Lexus fans here, the reliability is still the best in the business(as far as luxury rides are concerned).

And even though you know I currently do not own a Porsche vehicle, I can see why you like it. I have the ultimate respect for a specialty carmaker that actually stands behind it's product like Porsche does. Again, with good products come huge profits.

And yes my friend, the R8 will be the vehicle to be seen in and to drive. Like every Ferrari and Aston that comes out, everybody will want one their way only, and that is why the vehicle is on a 4 year halt as of now.

hpowders

Nobody here called the PT Cruiser a piece of junk.
Several of us criticized its "look."

I have driven one as an airport rental (late at night when no one could see me, except perhaps Google Earth) and I thought the vehicle handled quite well.

It's good to hear the TL can provide you with 35 mpg at times.

What I am saying is by this time, almost 35 years after the energy crisis of the 1970's, all vehicles should be providing us with 35 mpg.

houdini1

For what it is worth, the R8 just won a comparison test between it, the Porsche 911 Turbo and the Aston Martin V8 Vantage. July C&D. No losers among that bunch.

hpowders

Hopefully, the diesel revolution will spread quickly next year as the media gives diesel its approval, folks begin to enjoy real savings at the pump and gas stations make the fuel more accessible.

Folks around here are complacent and that's entirely understandable. It's human nature. Life has been just fine up to now. Harriet makes dinner for Ozzie in his sport jacket. Everything is rosy.

But what happens if a terrorist group sets fire to a major oil field. This is where the USA is most vulnerable. Those guys are nuts! Hello $10 gas for those lucky few who have VIP connections. Goodbye stock market. Hello depression. People all of a sudden willing to do anything to break the yoke of foreign oil as milk soars to $8 a quart and one's monthly home energy bill soars to $500 with frequent power outages and blackouts.

We shouldn't be in this position. We've had almost 35 years to make some serious changes and instead, we've done nothing.

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, Tony. Very sad.

houdini1

But what happens if a terrorist group sets fire to a major oil field. This is where the USA is most vulnerable. Those guys are nuts! Hello $10 gas

So how is your surcharge going to prevent that from happening? All you would have then is $15. gas. :confuse:

hpowders

The idea is to gradually implement the surcharge so people change their mindset and take conservation seriously.

True, it may be too late for that. Who knows?

The USA has had almost 35 years to do something about our vulnerability. Yet here we are as if it's 1973 all over again; the big difference now of course is we have to consider the suicidal terrorists who want to destroy the US and what better way than to destroy key oil fields?

Sorry to be such a downer tonight. I may be having a hangover from my wife's potent rumcake.

laurasdada

"Nobody here called the PT Cruiser a piece of junk..."

Could be, my memory isn't what it used to be. I just seem to recall a poster (or posters) questioning why anybody would buy a PT Cruizer. No matter. For the record, I like the styling of the PT. Obviously, so did GM (read: HHR...).

"What I am saying is by this time, almost 35 years after the energy crisis of the 1970's, all vehicles should be providing us with 35 mpg."

While I don't disagree, I think that much of the blame is the good ol' American consumer. Many vehicles, for their size/weight/engine size/performance do get relatively good mpg given those factors. The TL (but not so much the G35), the Porsche 911, the Corvette. But, what are the best selling vehicle classes? Trucks/SUVs? Some lovingly discussed here, of course. X5, Cayenne, FX, etc... Some may get relatively decent mpg, but all get poor mpg. Yet they sell. The consumers vote with their wallet and the for profit auto mfg's listen to their constituency and give 'em what they want. I know this is simplistic and there is more to the story, but if enough of us really start to vote differently things will change (capitalism rules!) and, well, another Toyota may arise from obscurity and ridicule (remember when "Made in Japan" was an insult/joke and Toyota was Toyopet...?).

And to all a good night.

hpowders

Yes. One can put blame on the good ol' American consumer.

A gasoline surcharge, like it or not, will change the good ol' American consumer's mindset. It won't happen by itself.

The manufacturers must fulfill their part of the bargain by readily providing interesting fuel efficient vehicles.

To me that means conversion to diesel.

Enough said.

jlbl

1000km of Valencia, a second win for the Peugeot 908 HDi FAP

http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans/actu/2007-05-07_GD_1507_fr.html

Regards,
Jose

bristol2

Man I love those cars! I don't get NASCAR at all, when you have the option to see serious auto racing, why settle for a Ford Taurus??

bristol2

I agree with the surcharge also.

There are a couple of things being lost in the discussion.

1. When a surcharge is added, that creates funds which can be used for further development of alternative energies or engine improvements. The money does not just get taken away and disappear. It could, perhaps, be used to reduce our debt.
2. Taxation is part of the social contract we are all involved in. Everyone wants to complain about taxes but everyone wants services, roads, police,emergency care ,military, even FEMA..
3. The impact on different income levels is true of all products. However most people at the lower end of the earning spectrum are not buying v8's. They are using the vehicles they can afford which are smaller displacement and using less gas.

For what it's worth I think a usage tax based on fuel economy levied at the point of purchase would be more effective than anything in reducing long-term gas consumption.

Vehicles with worse mileage would be progressively taxed higher. That would be an incentive for the buyer to make a better decision at the point of car buying (so maximum effect on the auto-maker) without penalizing those who are already 'stuck' with a vehicle.