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Comments
Three years ago when I was shopping in this category, the only A8 they had was the long wheel base and the dealer said that the SWB was basically a special order and very rare. I liked the way the car rode but it "felt" so big and long that I felt uncomfortable in it, like I should be a limo driver. It's interesting that the XJ is as long or longer but it didn't feel that way at all. Same for the S Class. The interior was terrific but I was in one that had some special options, alcantra lining etc. I may not be correct but I don't think that is standard. (correct me if I'm wrong). I guess Audi interiors are so good that the A6 is also outstanding. But you are correct that in sitting in any of these models it is a big step up from the level below in terms of details, refinement etc. That's where the "luxury" comes in. You also feel it in the seats and hear it when you close the doors. I may try to find a swb to test and see if I feel differently but back then, I felt that it was kind of in between the BMW and the MB. It wasn't as sporty or fast as the BMW and the steering was a bit numb. And it wasn't as comfortable as the MB S Class. The styling is a bit under the radar for me too. But no doubt it has a presence and is certainly a well respected auto for those in the know.
Democrats drive Volvos. Republicans Hummers. Libertarians drive....? Personally I think such pigeonholing is bunk.
I was very satisfied with the A8's interior. It definitely says "money." If BMW's ever look half that good inside, I'd think I went to heaven!
Glad to hear the rear head rests don't bother you.
The interior and seats are a step up in the 7 as well- larger seats, better leather etc.
I would love it if the car companies would make an option available for the E Class, 5 series etc where the interior was up to the next level but that might not be a good marketing plan for them. MB doesn't bring in the swb S Class for a reason. They want you to pay to sit "first class". And the reluctance of the Audi dealers I've seen to have swb A8s in stock. (maybe that's changed)
By the way, how has the reliability been on the A8? Do the electronics hold up and are they now up to speed on nav, bluetooth, sat radio and the like? It seems like BMW is really committed to not only being the ultimate driving machine but to keeping up with Lexus on the techno goodies. The new 5 has realtime traffic and voice recognition for blue tooth phones as well as Ipod adapter, great radio etc. There's no reason why MB and Audi shouldn't keep up as well.
I think BMW interiors look just fine. Thier interiors may not scream MONEY but they do whisper understated elegance instead. Understated luxury is the kind of luxury I like best.
The dark wood I have in the 545i is so shiny, my wife refuses to believe it's real wood! In the A8, she wouldn't make that mistake. The wood has a beautiful grain-the kind you see in expensive steakhouses.
However, whenever I tell her our next car may not be a BMW (because she doesn't like the wood), she begs me not to change.
Ouch!
Once we took this G37 and its five-speed automatic to the test track in California, it accelerated to 60 mph in 5.5 seconds and went through the quarter-mile in 13.9 seconds at 102.8 mph, a tick of the clock faster than a G35 sedan with a manual transmission.
What is the 4WAS (4 Wheel Active Steer) in the GS7 like ? Based on the following it doesn't sound too good:
It all went pear-shaped in a 4WAS-equipped G37. This car didn't turn into corners with the same predictability and it wasn't as easy to hold our line, plus we always had the unnerving feeling that the system was second-guessing not only us but itself.
Detached steering feel in a car such as a G37 is inexcusable:
Good straight-ahead sense also kept the G37 from being influenced either by crosswinds or highly crowned roads. But even in these circumstances, we still noticed the detached feel of the steering. Infiniti has another step yet to go to match the BMW 3 Series in this department.
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Often imitated. Never equalled! :shades:
Good thing I supplied a cell phone to the queen of the colony.
I will alert her to turn the troops around.
DrFill
BMW is announcing a lot of ’green’ news today for its model lineup. The 2008 BMW lineup will now have 22 models that achieve over 48mpg while emitting 140g/km or less of CO2 as well as increased performance. As we just reported earlier, the BMW 6-Series will get a powerful diesel-powered 635d. BMW also announced the new 123d for its 1-series range.
The BMW 123d is powered by a 2.0 liter, 4-cylinder twin-turbo diesel engine that produces an outstanding 201 horsepower. That gives the BMW 123d the ability to do 0-62mph in 7.1 seconds with a fuel-economy of 54.3mpg.
Available in 3 and 5 door variants, the123d is fitted with BMW’s Efficient Dynamics system that includes the stop-start function and brake energy regeneration.
Pricing for the new models will be revealed in September near the sale date.
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TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Most BMW models in North America will remain gasoline thirsty for a long time to come. The fact of the matter is North Americans still prefer performance over fuel efficiency. Dont believe me? Then read my upcoming post.
I read the British mag called Car and the reviewers preferred the new diesel Ford Mondeo over a diesel Passat and a diesel BMW320d sedan. That's great news for Europeans but what Fords do we get here in N. America? A flop that is renamed a Taurus which happens to be the name of another flop? Go figure.
Maier, who was interviewed by Handelsblatt, acknowledged that the two had worked together in the past, commenting “we cooperate naturally with BMW in a few technical areas, like development of hybrid engines.” However, the consensus in the Mercedes boardroom is that there are no plans to work together beyond the current co-development of hybrid drivetrains.
When BMW’s Ganal was questioned about what developments the two firms could undertake together, he only mentioned that there are several possibilities but wasn’t willing to give any details.
I find MB's snub quite surprising especially when they are currently struggling to find enough money to engineer their cars. That struggle is evident by the fact that MB's new GLK SUV (I am lousy with acronyms so pardon me if I misnamed their new X3 competitor) will not be available with right steering wheels . Think of all the markets that the MB GLK will be deprieved from entering: Japan, UK, Asia (excl. Japan). The reason that MB cannot develop such a version is because they lack the engineering resources to develop one. There is no other altenative explantation for such short-sightedness. This BMW snub from MB is pure arrogance and will harm them in the long run.
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I think the current crop of BMW interiors are pretty bland, (with the exception of the excellent X5) but if the next round of post-Bangle cars have interiors anything like the CS concept, Audi had better watch out.
Keep in mind that Edmunds 0-60 runs are more like C&D's "street-start" tests. Still, I wouldn't expect the G37 to outrun the 335i, though its much faster than the A5 3.2 or CLK350. As for the 4WAS system, I think the issue is that it includes an "active steering" system, which is always a no-no. Fortunately its an option.
The 3-series is still regarded as the car to beat in the entry-lux segment. BMW shouldn't get too smug though, as the 5-series used to be regarded that way as well.
OTOH, most Audi dealerships have plenty of SWB A8's in stock, particularly the Sport models.
And on the electronics, Audi is definitely up to the competitions challenge, and has been for quite sometime. When BMW's i-Drive got the evil eye thrown at it, in 2004 Audi released the MMI, to much rave for it's simplicity over the MMI. It still won't replace a simple knob or button for ease of use, but it is still easier than the even the latest i-Drive, although I found both system relatively easy to operate.
And to boot, both of my Audi's are fully loaded versions, especially the ultra-equipped W12. It has every single option Audi offers, including some they don't. Nothing has gone wrong with either. Not even an hiccup.
It's looks have really grown on me and it's not a car you see a lot of.
Indeed, while auto advertisements increasingly tout fuel efficiency -- General Motors Corp. flaunts the fuel economy of its Chevrolet Silverado pickup, even though the truck doesn't get better than 21 mpg -- consumers still appear to put a priority on size and power. In a recent Consumer Reports survey, 70% said they plan to seek a more fuel-efficient vehicle, but only about half said they would sacrifice size or performance in that quest.
Oh yes and what about Government regulations to change our gas consuming habits? Quite senseless IMO:
Increased mileage regulations could add significant price premiums to vehicles as auto makers employ expensive technology to enhance fuel economy -- as much as $2,000, according to Global Insight. Auto makers say that number could be higher, exceeding $5,000. Jacked-up prices could pressure not only auto companies, but also dealers trying to move vehicles off their lots.
"If we have a big disconnect between what the consumer is asking for and what the manufacturers have been ordered to produce, that's extremely difficult," says Mike Jackson, chief executive of AutoNation Inc., the nation's largest publicly traded dealership chain. "That's sort of like if you want to do something about dresses in America, [mandating] that we can't sell anything larger than a size eight. If you don't put America on a diet at the same time, you have a disconnect between the regulators and what the consumer is willing to do."
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"Right out of the traps it feels alive. The throttle has a bite to it, snapping the car ahead on even the slightest tickle, at which point a gorgeously deep V8 rumple starts swirling around the cabin.
The brakes have a concise, reassuring action and they're not overservoed like so many Audis were. The steering is a bit overlight but, far more important, is as precise as promised.
And yet... when you push a bit harder you find that the S5 doesn't warm to the task. It doesn't come more alive as it works harder, rather its verve drains dispiritingly away. Don't pay too much attention to the S5 badge, just think of it as an A5 V8.
The steering isn't isn't only accurate, it has a useful feel to it. But the message it sends out never varies. I'm understeering, it says, and there's nothing you can do about it. I want more of a sense that the car's enjoying the experience rather than just tolerating it.
At the end of my drive, the chassis engineer asked whether the new front axle layout made much difference. Hmmm. I didn't want to offend the guy, so I made noises about the improved steering accuracy. But given that he'd asked, I had to say the S5 still felt nose-heavy and lifeless at the limit. "Exactly" he flatly replied.
Seems the new layout means he can make the car far more playable, but the marketing types told him he had to pull it back to the usual Audi understeer because the customers like it - but have they tried anything else? Ah well, here's hoping he gets his way on the RS5."
Verdict: 6\10. "Not as sporty as Audi says. Which means the cheaper A5s, minus the pretence, are nicer to know."
Those words are music to my ears.
So Doc what are the chances of a Lexus LF-A with a stick?
1)NIL
2)Zero
3)El Zippo
4)Or All three of the above
Please point out to me a current or future pefromance Toyota/Lexus model with a stick?
How long are those guys at Nagoya or Toyota City gonna keep me waiting ? Eternity is a long time to wait for them to re-discover the stick.
Lexus and sticks mix about as well as oil and water. They offered one on the SC300 for a few years, nobody really wanted it, so it was gone. When the first IS300 hit the mags cried for a stick option, and they eventually got it, but car magazines don't actually buy the cars. I read somewhere the ratio of IS250 MTs compared to all of the other autobox equipped variants. I don't recall exactly what the numbers were, but the MT makes up a tiny fraction overall. The Toyota brand has essentially pulled out of the sporty car market all together, leaving the Scions to offer MTs.
I'm sorry to say it, but just like hydraulic brakes, throttles, and steering, the old fashioned 3-pedal stick shift will eventually go the way of the Dodo, save for a few track day cars like the Lotus Elise or Porsche 911 GT3. Dual-clutch sequential gearboxes are the future, whether you like it or not.
Not buying it.
What I've observed, after buying the first Lincoln produced with a manual transmission in over 50 years, is that the dealers are the biggest piece of the problem.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and posit that Lincoln & Lexus dealers (used to, before Lincoln took the gas pipe) think of themselves similarly: we've got a luxury brand here -- who wants a stinkin' manual? NO. . .BODY, so they didn't stock them, didn't talk about them & wished they didn't exist. Pretty soon, they didn't.
Go figure.
In the case of Lincoln, the car (LS) doesn't exist either any more either. Mine is still going strong at 112K miles, & I'm a couple weeks away from taking it to the Yukon & Alaska. The car's great, but the dealers suck.
Enthusiasts need not apply.
Some brands embrace, or at least tolerate, enthusiasts -- those are where I now shop. I have a feeling that Lexus couldn't care less and that Lincoln is too numb to care about anything.
What I've observed, after buying the first Lincoln produced with a manual transmission in over 50 years, is that the dealers are the biggest piece of the problem.
Certainly no one goes to a Lincoln dealer to buy a performance car. The SC300 situation though is different. It's like the old Volvo C70 MT, the market just didn't want them, and for those that actually did buy one, they were impossible to get rid of because nobody wanted them as a used car.
There are certain brands that appeal to MT buyers like BMW, Infiniti, and Audi, while the others begrudgingly offer it on a model or two, even though maybe 1% of customers opt for the manual. There just weren't enough people that wanted a 300hp Volvo with a MT, so the S60 and V70R are dead. It wasn't the dealer's fault, the cars were not hard to find. The market just wasn't there.
"The biggest culprits in the personality shift are the steering and driveline. Some of us thought the steering, for example, feels best and most confidence-inspiring in a straight line, grand touring-style. Even though the rack talks loudly enough in corners, there’s more feel and precision on-center than in the ensuing 40 degrees to either direction. The outgoing G35 coupe’s steering was lighter and a bit more precise, which lent a bit more of a twinkle-toed, light-on-its-feet-type feel to the overall package. (The G35 was also more than 200 pounds lighter than the G37.)
Gone is the gear-mesh noise, the buzzing, and the clunking from the transmission tunnel, and the shifter for the G37 Sport’s standard six-speed manual has been improved immeasurably. What once was a vague, hope-ya-don’t-grab-first-
when-you’re-doing-that-4-3-
downshift affair is now precise, smooth, and more direct, with more heft and less notchiness. If you want the five-speed automatic transmission, which features manumatic shifting and now incorporates a Sport mode, you’ll need look at the base and Journey model G37s. The top-spec G37 Sport is the only way to row your own gears.
The VQ37VHR is smoother and less buzzy than the 3.5 liter, non-VVEL version, and while it allows the G37 to be a little quicker, the engine's extra power doesn’t result in a lot of improvement in acceleration figures, mostly due to the ’08 G37’s weight increase over the 2007 G35 coupe. That outgoing model performed the 0-to-60-mph sprint as quickly as 5.5 seconds, whereas the G37 accomplished the same test in 5.3. Further, the new car hits 100 mph from a stop in 13.2 seconds, the old car in 14.2, and the new G coupe covers the quarter-mile in 13.9 seconds at 103 mph versus 14.2 seconds at 100 mph for the G35. Improvement—but not a lot."
Car and Driver G37 review
The Good: The Perfect Lexus (not even the LS is perfect) is yet to come!
The Bad: The LF-A is a stunning car, but will, at least at first, eschew a proper sporting transmission.
The Ugly: Lexus' history of selling sticks. They pulled a Benz and stuck the manual to the weakest engine when it came to the Original Coupe. Then treated it like a Redheaded-stepchild when it came to the IS.
You show no love, you get no love. Lexus has earned a sour-puss with their ambivelence toward the manual. :P
Even Lexus isn't perfect.
Infiniti will never live up to the promise, but they do show enthusiast respect, and dedication.
BMW finds ways to drop the ball with me (Red guages, ugly interiors, ugly exteriors), and Lexus just doesn't care about enthusiast (much like Mercedes), so Infiniti was built for people who would fall through the cracks.
There is a Pacific Ocean between Infiniti and the Big 3, but Infiniti has some nice hardware laying around.
DrFill
Oddly, the next 350Z, or 370Z, the vehicle who's platform the G Coupe shares, is supposed to get smaller and lighter next year. :confuse:
DrFill
Lexus offered the MT in the SC from something like '92-96. In other markets the engines were 2.5 and 3.0 twin turbo 6s. For the US market they kept the MT on the 3.0 I6 but dropped the turbos, giving us the V8 SC400 with a measily 250hp instead.
A MT would make the IS350 a bit faster, but it would not make the car handle any better, so true performance enthusiasts would most likely still gravitate towards the 335i and G35/7 anyway.
Perhaps they've found a way to better adapt the FM platform to sports car duty. The current Z's size and weight are a consequence of its platform sharing, the old 300ZX TT was much lighter and much faster. Or, perhaps its a rumored smaller sports car to slot below the Z to go after the Miata.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Seat_600_spain.jpg
http://www.seat600.com/frames3.html
Regards,
Jose
Actually if I wanted to spend 182k on a sedan, I think I'd go the Bentley Continental route. Lose some performance but own something imho more distinctive and luxurious, and have a bit of cash leftover.
4)All three of the above and don't bet your life savings on it.
As for Lexus with sticks, the bottom line is they tried and people are just not buying it, the IS300 was a good example. I certainly would hope Lexus will include a MT for the IS350 during the mid-life-upgrade so the so-called enthusiasts will have one less thing to bash about. But at the end of the day, Toyota/Lexus are out to make as much profit as possible, not to satisfy enthusiasts' wishes.
No I dont like it nor do some members in this forum like it nor do millions of drivers worldwide who like rowing their own gears like it. BMW, Infiniti and Audi still offer manuals because there is still a market for them here in North America.
And what happens in the future when the stick loving population becomes as rare and few as unpoached free roaming Elephants in Africa and Asia? There will still be sticks because diehard manual buyers will be willing to pay a premium price for such a transmission.
And at the lower end of the market the funnest cars to drive are the ones with sticks. I would rather drive a manual Honda Fit than a higher priced automatic Accord. And I know there are quite a few who share my views.
If everybody was so rational there would be no pricey high-end cars in existence today.
Luxury is based on everything that is not rational:
The desire to provoke envy
The desire to attract a gold-digging mistress or spouse
The desire to maintain delusions of self-grandeur
The desire to provoke envy
The desire to attract a gold-digging mistress or spouse
The desire to maintain delusions of self-grandeur
Yes, but imho there are cars like the Flying Spur that do better than the S65 on all of those counts.
I fully agree with you. While the S-class does look good with the AMG body treatment, you can get that on the S63, and probably even the 550 with some sort of AMG appearance package. The only thing you really get for all of your money on the S65 are little badges that say "V12". Big deal.
The average person is not going to look at an S65 and go "Wow! That's an almost $200K car!", because they won't know, because it looks like every other S-class, and ultimately all that power is useless because the car doesn't have the traction to handle it off the line, and its limited to 155mph just like the S550.
Show up in a Flying Spur, or a Rapide, or a Panamera, or even a Maserati QP on the other hand, and you will turn some heads.
Regarding the stick IS250, let's review this info...
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Here's some of that article:
"The X Package improvements also translate to the track, as our slalom test confirms. Although it's down over 100 hp on the IS 350, the IS 250 is nearly 4 mph faster through the cones with a 70.4-mph result."
"This is blazing speed, and it puts the IS 250 ahead of the BMW 335i, not to mention about a half dozen very capable sports cars."
The MT X-Package IS250 is faster in the slalom than the IS350? Ahead of the BMW 335i?
Yet, the MT IS250 gets no credit from anyone here?
Perhaps I've misunderstood some of the posts.
TagMan
1. The sports-tune X-package, or
2. They simply just have to re-test the IS350 over again and this time with either the X-package or the sports package.
The point was that a MT IS model does exist that can achieve the numbers shown. Of course it is a good thing to have a decent suspension. Afterall, who would want a MT BMW 335i with a rotten suspension?
But the posts were not inclusive of the MT X-package IS. My post was to show that a manual tranny Lexus can indeed put some numbers on the board... surprising as it is.
TagMan
Slalom speed and subjective handling feel are two very different things. The Acura TL can match the 335i's slalom speed, but that certainly doesn't mean it handles as well. The sport package and MT equipped IS250 may be blazing fast through the cones, but that won't fix its steering feel issues, or its nervousness and lack of composure at the limit.
I don't think the average 3-series buyer (well, the average buyer that opts for the sports package and MT, not the 325i automatic buying poseurs) really cares that much about slalom speed. It's about that BMW magic.
The Doc seemed to think that there wasn't a Lexus made with a manual transmission that could stack up at all. The informaiton I posted at least gives some credit where it is due.
That's the only reason for the post.
I don't think the average 3-series buyer ... really cares that much about slalom speed.
Well, be aware that slalom performance is certainly one of the better data indicators of handling... something 3-series buyers relish!
TagMan
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TagMan
Ugly exteriors?
Huh !!!!
Aren't you the same fellow who loves the styling of the LS? When Bangle and a group of BMW folks saw the LS for the first time in the 06 Detroit auto show they chuckled when they saw how eager Toyota was in copying their styling. The GS? Another dead ringer of Bangle's influence.
Ugly interiors?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and BMW doesnt only do automobile interiors but also airplane interiors. Their renowned repuation for making high quality auto interiors has given them the credibility to design interiors for planes that costs dozens of millions of dollars.
Red gauges?
Gauges are not suppose to be about aesthetics. They're suppose to be about alerting the driver and the colour red is best in getting a driver's attention.
Uhhh, what a sigh of relief. For a second there you have begun to worry me.