Luxury Lounge

1…5354565859…428

Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    A good post, TM.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if the most popular diesel models have a long waiting list, much like the Prius did.

    Also, excellent CSI work getting us those undeniably similar BMW and Lexus photos.

    One would think those highly paid Lexus design engineers would finally come up with an original idea for the LS.

    They apparently had no trouble creating the very nice-looking IS and RX vehicles.

    I do think that Lexus may be a bit too apprehensive about upsetting their ultra-conservative LS customer base with a bit too much panache. However, I believe that is exactly what is needed!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I believe they may be a bit too apprehensive about upsetting their ultra-conservative LS customer base with a bit too much panache. I believe that is exactly what is needed!

    The problem for Lexus was/is messing with success. That's always a risk.

    And, it's clear that Lexus wanted to strike at BMW as well as Mercedes Benz on this latest round. So, that explains the whole design trend, IMO.

    L-Finesse is little more, perhaps, than a Japanese rendition of Chris Bangle's designs! ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OMG... let's hope it doesn't look anything like THIS:

    image

    Here's the scoop (and more pics):

    Porsche and Audi join forces for an Audi R4

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Reminds me of a decapitated chicken! :(
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    LOL. Sometimes you crack me up. :shades:

    Of course, any production version would have a normal windshield, but that wouldn't help it anyway.

    TagMan
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Indeed!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Released yesterday:

    Porsche was the highest-ranking nameplate for a third consecutive year. BMW was number two.

    BMW segment winners:

    Entry Premium Car: BMW 3 Series

    Premium Sporty Car: BMW 6 Series

    Mid-sized Premium MAV(multiactivity vehicle): BMW X5

    I thought it was significant that out of 7 premium categories, not one Lexus vehicle was chosen in what is after all, a highly-respected customer satisfaction survey.

    The Mercedes Benz S-Class was chosen as the winner of the Large Premium Car segment.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Doesn't anybody from corporate look at these designs before the photo-ops? :surprise:
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    In that case, you may as well say all HELC's copy from each other. Let's give this a try:

    (1)
    image


    (2)
    image


    (3)
    image


    (4)
    image


    Can we honest accuse any/all of them copying from each other? When the images are small enough as eliminate the details, they all look similar.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Porsche was the highest-ranking nameplate for a third consecutive year. BMW was number two.

    How sweet it is!
    Looks like the world agrees with us.
    No Lexus? No comment necessary.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I assume most of you realize that Chris Bangle is an American auto designer who did stints at Opel and Fiat before being hired by BMW in the early to mid 90's. He's an American hired gun.

    He is responsible for throwing out the the staid, conservative German BMW designs and finally giving BMW the good ol' American design touch. He probably single handedly saved BMW from going broke.

    The fantastic worldwide success and influence of this American must really rankle other European auto designers. All Americans should be proud of him no matter who he currently works for!! :shades:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    No, brightness, all helcs don't look alike, and the concensus is darned clear. The LS and the 7 look similar. Sorry... but I'm in the design business, and quite frankly, you are not, and I don't expect you to have the trained eye that I have. :)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Nice post. (even with the embellishment) ;)

    TM
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Well, glad you agree that they do not look alike. I'm in the intellectual property business, and my expertise says, that you don't have a case :-)

    BTW, I thought you were in the mind-bending business (ie. advertising), not design business :-)
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    … are just crazy designs to look for reactions. They are like the sort of projects that architecture students are encouraged to design. Go crazy now and here; later you will not get any money to support them!
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I'm not aware that BMW was going out of business in the 90's. Care to elaborate? I'm genuinely curious.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Maybe one day if the wife ever stops traveling, I can get my Cayman.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    From what I recall, in the 1990's BMW acquired the rights to the Rolls Royce name and also acquired Rover Group PLC; hardly the behavior of a financially insolvent company.

    BMW was doing quite fine, thank you, before Chris Bangle came along. Since then, of course, the results have been stratospheric.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    BTW, I thought you were in the mind-bending business (ie. advertising), not design business

    Advertising and design go hand in hand, particularly with the print media. My degree is in advertising. My business is in the creative and production end of the industry, not the sales and placement end of it.

    BTW, I placed a slight edit to my post... I wouldn't want you to get the wrong interpretation. ;)

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    My time line was probably off a little there Brightness. Also I was using a little of that stuff that us liars like to call hyperbole!! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    For example, a Volvo looks nothing like the 7-series. A Cadillac looks nothing like it, and a Subaru or Saab look nothing like it.

    Volvo has basically one shape that is applied to all of their cars. Same with Cadillac. That's how M-B and BMW used to operate in the '90s. Subaru styling is a disaster, they seem to just throw darts at a wall of shapes. Saab used to have original designs when they were making quirky, Swedish hatches and wagons, but not anymore. The Saabaru and Saablazer are copies of their donor cars with Subaru and Chevy crossed out, and Saab written in instead.

    The LS460 is clearly a derivative of the BMW 7-Series... there's just no way around it. That LS460 rear is NOTHING like the previous LS430 and it's no coincidence that the new look is Bangled. It's absurd to think that it is a coincidence.

    The LS has always copied the Germans. The LS400/430 were arguably more derivative of the old S420 than the LS460 is of the 7 series.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I wonder why BMW doesn't sue? Those 2 photos that TM posted couldn't be more convincing of design infringement. I guess once a design is "out there", it is fair game.

    You can't sue if someone produces a car vaguely similar to your own. Mercedes took no action against the LS400, even though it was almost a clone of the S420. BMW should be flattered that the Bangle-butt is so widely copied, (especially after the automotive press slammed it) but it's not a "signature element" that defines BMW. Even the Hofmeister kink is found on on a lot of cars now.

    If Lexus decided to put a double-kidney grill on the new LS, then BMW would have cause to sue.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I'm either going to have to stop eating whilst reading this discussion or some posters who shall go unnamed are going to have to buy me a new keyboard. :shades:
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The LS has always copied the Germans.

    Thank you LG, for weighing in on this.

    As far as the other cars I had mentioned (Caddy, Volvo, etc.) I used them as examples of original independent design, as opposed to designs that tend to copy or emulate others... such as the LS copying the German designs.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Hope it wasn't Kentucky Fried. ;)
    TM
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    OMG... let's hope it doesn't look anything like THIS:

    I would assume that an entirely separate model wouldn't just be a roadster version of the TT-RS. Interesting that this concept has a space for B&O's horrible mp3 player apparently built into the dash. Note to Audi: stick with the iPod jack. Nobody bought the B&O mp3 player.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    As far as the other cars I had mentioned (Caddy, Volvo, etc.) I used them as examples of original independent design, as opposed to designs that tend to copy or emulate others... such as the LS copying the German designs.

    I agree with you there, Peter Horbury's original S60 shape was definitely unique, same with the Cadillac CTS. So far "L-finesse" doesn't seem to be that different from the Japanese designs we've been seeing for years. While the IS350 is a good looking car, Acura or Mazda could've produced something just like it. It's certainly not the kind of styling revolution that happened between the 740i to 745i, or the S70 to the S60, or the Catera to CTS.

    Incidentally, Volvo's new designer Steve Mattin spent the last 18 years at Mercedes-Benz. It will be interesting to see what future Volvo shapes look like.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Incidentally, Volvo's new designer Steve Mattin spent the last 18 years at Mercedes-Benz. It will be interesting to see what future Volvo shapes look like.

    When did he sign on?

    TM
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    When did he sign on?

    In early '05 I think. I'm pretty sure he was behind the new S80 and C30.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'm pretty sure he was behind the new S80 and C30.

    Really?

    The S80 has a reasonable front end, but the rear is the same old problem. Perhaps, Mattin's hands are tied to a certain degree of continuity that is too high.

    The C30 is OK, but reminds me a bit of a modern rendition of that older sports coupe they sold... and for some reason I can't recall it's name, but I'm thinking it was the P1800 model.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Wow Howard,

    I am so glad you still remember my post from way way back during those days of May 24, 2007 when my sideburns had less silver hair.

    Yes I cant wait for a diesel BMW or even a diesel Honda Accord. Those two types of diesels would be among my top choices assuming that there will be no lithium ion powered hybrid Toyota/Lexuses.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Vaguely similar? The only thing missing is the BMW pinwheel!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    I'm with you Dewey but I am waiting on a small diesel SUV. Either the Merc GLK, the VW Tiguan, or the Honda CRV.

    These are the ones on my radar screen now and hopefully there will be more. Heck I think I would like a Hyundai Santa Fe if it had a good modern diesel.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Sorry, kid! We folks down Tampa way can sometimes talk quite ornery. I have traded a pinch of NYC rudeness for a little bit of down home country humor.

    Anyhow, that's the first think I thought of when I saw that photo. Sorry about the clothes! :blush:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Sorry, Dewey! I didn't recall that you may have posted something similar. :blush:

    Regardless, diesel infiltration is going to happen.

    The BMW diesels are coming as 2009 models-probably around next summer or fall. I may extend my 545i lease by a few months if conditions look favorable, meaning plentiful diesel fuel around and a BMW diesel model I desire coming to these shores(335d, 535d, X3d).

    Remember folks, these all aluminum BMW diesel engines are award winners, receiving ecstatic reviews by everybody in the print media who has driven BMW vehicles powered by them.

    If you are not an enthusiast, you cannot begin to imagine how exciting and eagerly anticipated these vehicles are!

    A diesel Accord, especially in coupe form could also be interesting. I enjoyed sitting in a 2007 Accord coupe and found it to be very comfortable.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I am waiting on a small diesel SUV. Either the Merc GLK, the VW Tiguan, or the Honda CRV.

    According to my Honda source (dealer owner), he says emphatically that there are no plans for a diesel CR-V. Now, in my mind I see a diesel CR-V as a perfect idea, so who knows?

    Between the VW Tiguan or the Mercedes GLK, I'd opt for the GLK just on looks alone... although that Tiguan has a little hint of CR-V appearance to it, which is wildly popular. After all the CR-V is the number one seller.

    The Veracruz, which is selling beyond Hyundai's wildest expectations, will supposedly offer a diesel in about '09.

    I have a feeling that the BMW X5 will get the diesel instead of the X3, at least initially, but I do not know this for a fact, just a strong hunch.

    It seems you and I are in the exact same position... waiting for a small diesel SUV.

    My wife, however, will get the larger GL diesel, and I am considering going out of California to get an '08 instead of waiting for the '09 in California.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The S80 has a reasonable front end, but the rear is the same old problem. Perhaps, Mattin's hands are tied to a certain degree of continuity that is too high.

    The C30 is OK, but reminds me a bit of a modern rendition of that older sports coupe they sold... and for some reason I can't recall it's name, but I'm thinking it was the P1800 model.

    I'm not sure what the story is exactly. The S80, C30, and C70 were most likely already in development when he arrived at the company. Ian Callum has been at Jag for almost a decade, but the XK is the first car he got to design his way. Perhaps we will have to wait until the next gen S60, XC60 and XC90 arrive to see what kind of impact Mr. Mattin will bring to Volvo.
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    I have now seen pictures of the new BMW Series 1 coupe taken from more distance, in open air, which have forced me to change my mind. It is a nice coupe from front to rear end. It will be here in October, with a good choice of gas and diesel engines. In particular, 123d will have a twin turbo of 2.0 liters and 204 hp; 0-60 in 7 secs.

    On the other hand, I have also seen pictures of the 911 Turbo cabrio. Impressive.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Vaguely similar? The only thing missing is the BMW pinwheel!

    Let me break this down for you picture-wise. This will also be my last post regarding this topic.

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage

    Bangle influenced? Maybe. BMW has a case? Not in a million years.

    Source: MSN Auto
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Jose, do you know if the 1 series will also come in a hatchback form? I thought I saw where it would.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    If you are wanting a GL diesel, and the timing is right, I would pull the trigger asap.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    In the lux and super-lux biz that is? Here's my list.

    1. Ferrari
    2. Porsche
    3. Lambo/Audi
    4. Mercedes-Benz/AMG
    5. BMW

    I'm quite sure I'll get some flack from this list, but what do you fellas think? What would be your list?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,331
    Exactly! These photos prove my point! :)
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Dan, I do not know if the hatched will come to the USA; for sure it will be continued here, both with 3 and 5 door versions.

    Jose
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    What I see in my eye is that LS460 flank resembles Series 5 flank.

    Jose
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    What I see in my eye is that LS460 flank resembles Series 5 flank.

    Legitimate perspective. There have been others that have mentioned that as well in the past.

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Why does it matter who copied whom or if indeed that even happened? Isn't that the way of the world? Someone/some company creates a hit and suddenly look-alikes multiply like rabbits. That's certainly what happens with television shows, fashions, the housing industry, food trends, etc. Why is it it an issue when it happens with cars?

    If the public likes whatever original concept is introduced by whomever, a demand is created and other companies/manufacturers/whatever rise to meet that demand. What could be wrong with THAT? It's an established and very successful way of doing business.

    I'm just sayin'... :)
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Oh, I agree with you in general terms. It is also true that many times the copy improves the original, and so on.

    Yet, between the Beatles and the Monkeys, most of the time I'd rather listen to… :P
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    LOL, okay I get that particular nuance... :P

    But the thing is that I don't care to listen to the Monkees because I just plain don't like them. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are/were essentially copying the Beatles. That part is irrelevant to how I feel about them.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Pat,
    Some of the manufacturers go through different times where they seem able to hit grand slams with styling that rocks the entire industry. Chris Bangle was one of those guys that influenced the industry at large.

    The only "issue" of discussion here is that there seemed to be some denial of that influence, particularly as it pertained to Lexus, by a couple of posters, and of course that brought about some further discussion in support of Bangle by the majority of posters.

    All good and healthy exchanges, IMHO, as I saw no personal insulting going on, and a nice lively forum.

    With regards to the relatively few automotive design geniuses throughout history... credit where credit is due.

    BTW... always loved the Beatles and always hated the Monkees. :)

    TagMan
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.