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Comments
And I hope you are not under the very mistaken impression that the reason I posted is because I thought some kind of "insult" occurred. 'Cause it kinda sounds like it.
DrFill
I understood that, and on my part I was playfully answering Pat's comment as a participant.
I have never understood in the many years I've been hosting this and the HELM discussion why people get so tangled up in who copied whom
May be it is a case of identity transfer! Has not always said that a man (or woman) tends to mystify himself with his beloved car? :shades:
More seriously, what prompted me into this discussion is to underline that Bangle started a trend, no matter if his style was/is disliked by many. Therein, of course, the track is open to any other designer to take in and give from his/her own.
To continue with the analogy, the Beatles, Dylan, the Beach Boys, etc, were copying one another. Each incorporated the copies in its own style, and pop/rock music had a golden age. Similarly, I find it is interesting to follow the influences that pass from a car style to other. Added with a bit of provocation, this is not a bad theme for a discussion
The problem would be if a particular car stylist/brand had no style at all into which incorporate the influences :sick:
Regards,
Jose
Just my opinion, but mostly the members here have a high regard for originality, and when one company has the ambition to `step out` and then win, those that copy really aren`t furthering the potential that they could if they made the effort....Now if the Germans copied Lexus service, that would be a win all around..incidentally my wife likes the BMW here in Charleston S.C just as much as she use to like Lexus service so that is a big improvement...My Audi is o.k. but still has a ways to go...
Do I care? Nope because one of their considerations in picking the G37 was its lower price. Based on other specs the BMW beat the G37 slightly. I did not read the details of the article since I speed-read it for a few seconds at a grocery store line-up (my reading was interrupted because I had to put my merchandise on a conveyor belt).
link title
It depends what you are looking for in a "top" engine. Aural note? Efficiency? Technology? Hp per litre? Beauty? etc.
Ferrari engines have wonderful soundtracks, they eschew the typical plastic "please don't touch the engine" covers of most other lux automakers for gorgeous painted cam covers, and their V-12s are without equal, so I would also probably put them at #1.
Porsche at #2... eh I'm not so sure. While they definitely deserve credit for producing the most powerful naturally aspirated 6s in the world, the boxers themselves are just plain ugly. There's nothing to show off at the back of a 911.
I wouldn't put Lambo/Audi at #3. Lambo's LP640 V-12, while power competitive with other supercars, is an absolutely ancient engine, nothing like the ultra-tech Ferraris. As for Audi, their engines are good, but mostly nothing remarkable, other than perhaps the RS4/R8 V-8. While the 2.0T is a very good engine, the supercharged Lotus/Toyota 1.8 and Ariel/Honda 2.0 produce more power with less weight, not to even mention the 400hp EVO 2.0L four.
The 265hp 3.2FSI is nothing special, and neither is the standard V-8. Good power for the smallish 4.2L, but other than that...
AMG yes, Mercedes, maybe not. Mercedes 4-cylinders are awful, and the 6s under the 3.5L aren't too great either. The 3.5L is decent, but better than the BMW 3.0TT? Not even close. The 5.5L V8 is awfully big for the amount of power that it produces, but Mercedes 8s have always had low hp/litre.
BMW should be much higher than 5th place. The 3.0TT is a world beating engine, and their V-8s are better than Audi's or Mercedes'.
I would rank them as follows:
1. Ferrari
2. Bugatti (only one, but what an engine)
3. BMW/Motorsport
4. AMG
5. Porsche
According to me the beauty of an engine is not only defined by its output. Among Lexusguy's list my most important engine criteri is "hp per litre" and "fuel effiiency". Maximized output with minimized input is my idea of a great engine and the companies that produce the best engines based on that criteria are Porsche, BMW, MB ,Infiniti and Lexus (not necessarily in that order). The Honda S2000 may not be a top lux or sport car but the Honda S2000 i4 was an engineering marvel when it was introduced in terms of producing maximum output with minimum input.
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The 1 series coupe looks too much like my old BMW e46. Dull re-hashed stying from the past is not my idea of great and bold styling.
TagMan
If "great" engines are about the sound and fury, diesels are going to lose. The fuel economy is wonderful, but there's nothing great about a diesel's exhaust note or its 4500rpm redline.
Jose
Mercedes engine department is a bit like the old Chevy in the US, big displacement, not much power for the displacement. Not saying that greater power per liter is necessarily always an advantage in and of itself, but it does show that MB historically had competed by throwing big engine blocks around because its capital (foundary) advantage in Europe just like Chevy in the US, instead of trying to make more power out of smaller displacement, like Honda, BMW and to some degree Porsche.
BMW 3.0TT engine itself is actually a step back from the 3.0NA, removing a number of technological innovations that have been added in the previous decade. Turbocharging is just a cheap way of adding power.
Therefore, you are saying that the exhaust sytem is also taken into consideration.
But, if it's sound and fury you are after, I would have no choice but to place a vote for the engine that sits in the Audi R8's engine bay. I've heard it in a video and it is absolutely monstrous! It defines fury.
TagMan
Granted. However, v. its currently available 3.5L V6 competition, the BMW is the engine to beat. While anybody can add a turbo, it takes BMW engine expertise to get it right. When you floor the throttle in a Volvo T5, the engine has a cup of coffee and a bagel, reads the paper, and then the car lunges forward. The turbos on the BMW engine on the other hand are basically invisible in operation.
Not only does the 3.0TT have far more torque than either the Infiniti or Lexus 3.5s can muster, but 100% of all 300ft.lbs is available at 1400rpm. In contrast, the Lexus has to rev to 4800rpm to deliver maximum torque, while the Infiniti has to rev to 5200rpm. The VQ37HR isn't nearly as fuel efficient, and even with 330hp it still can't outrun the BMW. Also, if they wanted to, BMW could make the 3.0TT match the Infiniti's 330hp with a simple reprogram of the ECU.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
What you have described is pretty the pros and cons of turbocharging. The BMW 3.0TT gets its from-standingstill quick engine response from programing the throttle response and transmission. The from-low-speed-start-high-gear response is still "having a cup of coffee and a bagel, reads the paper then lunging forward." If BMW tried ring more power out of the turbo by using a high pressure turbo, once again, it becomes "having a cup of coffee and a bagel, reads the paper then lunging forward."
That's the nature of the beast called turbo. On top of that, the owner pays in terms of engine longevity and maintenance requirement. That's why it's a bit of apples-to-oranges comparison between NA and turbo engines. The Lexus 3.5 is actually a very high-tech engine, very much on-par with the BMW non-turbo 3.0 (only bigger), which is technologically more sophisticated than the BMW turbo engine.
TM
The Porsche Turbo and GT3 are prime examples, with the GT3 boasting an incredible example of a NA engine, IMO.
TagMan
You get the feeling though that the BMW 3.0TT can produce 300hp in its sleep. Some magazines have even suggested that the engine actually produces closer to 320hp, while BMW says "wink wink" 300hp. Volvo's 2.9L T6 also has lag problems, so it's not just the small displacement of the T5, its a design issue. Audi's old 2.7T was also a bit laggy, though not much. Small turbos that can spool quickly as well as actively change airflow definitely make a huge difference when it comes to lag.
On top of that, the owner pays in terms of engine longevity and maintenance requirement.
True, except BMW owners pay nothing for maintenance, and most are likely to turn in their car at the end of a 2-3 year lease, long before any mechanical problems as a result of turbocharging will result, so that really doesn't apply in this case.
Indeed. The only 6-cylinders that can even approach the GT3 flat-6 are the old BMW M3 3.2L I6 and the original NSX 3.0L V6.
Well, actually it does. The first owner may not have to deal with any maintenance or repair cost but the second or on owner(s) will have to.
I'm with you, though. OTOH, I'm well into analyzing a lease for my next car, probably a BMW.
Go figure.
True, except BMW owners pay nothing for maintenance, and most are likely to turn in their car at the end of a 2-3 year lease, long before any mechanical problems as a result of turbocharging will result, so that really doesn't apply in this case.
Either the second owner will have to care about it, or BMW itself will. In the latter case, it just means that the company has to live with actually making much less money than the MSRP suggests.
That's essentially what the C&D "street start" is, no brake-torquing (which can give turbo cars big advantages by spooling up the turbos with a high-rev launch), just flooring the throttle from 5mph. The 335i is 0.8 of a second slower, at 5.6. The G37 is 0.6 of a second slower, at 5.9. This doesn't seem to indicate any severe lag disadvantage that the 335i would have v. the NA G37.
The automag editors may depend on BMW advertising dollars, but I certainly don't. I've driven the 335i, and it did not seem to have any lag to me. No bagels, no toast, no cup 'o tea and a crumpet. The engine just says "you got it" and gets to work.
As for the second owners, it just comes with the territory of buying a used luxury car. Plenty of things can go wrong in naturally aspirated cars, just ask Mercedes or Land Rover. That's what CPO warranties are for.
Its simple!!!!!
Bimmer, please... little cream, little sugar. :shades:
TagMan
The Infinti M, a.k.a the Nissan Fuga, has trounced the BMW 5 series in the vast majority of magazine tests. "The M45 rocks, game over." It ultimately doesn't matter what badge is on the front of the car. In the case of M v. 5, I would rather own and drive the Nissan.
When our X3 lease is up, the top two cars on our list to test drive are the Mercedes GLK, and the Infiniti EX. If the EX is the best, it's the one we'll take home, even though its a Nissan. Badge snobbery is no way to chose a car.
CPO warranty usually does not cover turbo charger; it's a wear item. With oil change interval set at 15k miles, I'd have to guess that it's a fast wearing item.
Of course. But more components under the hood just means the possibility for things to go wrong is higher. In the BMW 3.0TT's case, there are not just one turbo but TWO. I have to admit that I have driven the 335i before and that engine is pretty sweet. But at any given day given 2 very comparable engines, one NA and another force induced, I'll take the NA one in less than a milli-second.
But that's just me though.
Same reason the M45 beat my beloved 545i. The Infiniti's lower price. Sure wasn't for superior driveability.
FINALLY, an auto rag has found a way to beat BMW in a comparo. PRICE!! In that case, BMW will always "lose." LOL!!
Let's face it, MT has about as much credibility in recommending cars as CR. :shades:
Besides, there won't be any big dent in BMW sales from that rag review. JD Power puts high marks on BMW, remember?
BMW vs. Nissan? I'm sorry, but BMW engineering and engines are my choice any day.
Nissan/Infiniti represents a great value... and that's the reason for the MT nod.
TagMan
I had to laugh several years ago when the Infiniti 45 Sport "beat" the 545i, yet the BMW won every single driving category.
Any "study" can be skewed to reflect the testers' biases.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=121462?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1.*
DrFill
Wouldn't the more fair comparo be the 328i to the G37?
As to the "Inside Line" plug, that should get you a get out of jail free card, should you succumb to any naughtiness around here.
With the 100HP difference?
:surprise:
We Yankee fans do have a bit of a soft spot.
Once that twin-turbo goes diesel over here, one of the world's greatest cars ever will be available for under $50k.
At long last, an engine to do the rest of the 3 Series justice. Great power at low RPM!
I'm sitting here in chateau hpowders, contemplating what must be the devestating acceleration from rest of that great 335d when it finally arrives here.
You know, I was always a bit disappointed with my two 3 Series-couldn't believe how weak they were from a standing stop. Surprised that BMW hasn't addressed this issue sooner. Always one of the 3 Series few glaring weaknesses. The other, IMO being the much too small side mirrors.
AutoCar magazine's recent cover story comparing the BMW 3-Series, VW Passat and Ford Mondeo says the unthinkable...The Ford simply drives BETTER than the BMW 3-Series.
How much more of this can we take? :sick:
TagMan
I could not see any benefit but assume there must be one???
Maybe Fritz, the blue-tinting mirror guy was off on that day in Munich when my 545i was built.
The Mondeo seems to be a big hit in Europe but as of this time, Ford has no plans to introduce it in North America.
The world's concensus is quite clear that the BMW 3-Series sets the highest standard and represents the benchmark for all cars of its class. There is little doubt of this.
TagMan
Never any blue tint. Perhaps I am due a rebate for lack of tint?
Granted that not a single competitor has broken it yet but several did come close in the last several years.
Roman Empire was supposed to last forever right? As well as the current day version: The USA... well, on a second thought, let's not go there. :P
By the way, I agree with you: the Roman Empire indeed is over. Historically, it came to an end in 2007 AD with the termination of The Sopranos.
Howard, you are one funny sob (sob, meant as a compliment). :shades:
TagMan