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Comments
Like I said, must be a slow summer for financial interest stories.
Believe me, my 545i is quite wasted, even though I can drive 90 mph on the Interstate (and still get passed!)
The V-8 545i just enters its cruising range at 90 mph. Who needs V-10's or V-12's? Stop the insanity already! :shades:
Yes, fellow driver... and I'll chime in that my Carrera S with only six cylinders is also more than enough... 2nd gear quickly gets to freeway speed with 4 more to go! :shades:
Barely enough? Maybe I need to get an upcoming GT2? LOL.
TagMan
With the introduction of the 535i, BMW has made the 550i
O B S O L E T E!! :mad: (as Fritz Weaver said to Burgess Meridith once upon a time in the Twilight Zone).
:shades:
So that's where you speed off to... the bank!
No doubt to deposit that big retirement check!
I have a 7-year old son... it'll be a while for me. Pray for me.
TagMan
I'm sure your son isn't suffering too much being surrounded by all those wonderful vehicles in a great California neighborhood. My 5 year old grandkid can already identify most vehicles on the road by name when I drive him around. I must let him read a copy of the Edmunds Membership Agreement. He's almost ready!
Oh oh, sounds like a budding car nut (OMG) !
DrFill
Won't be too long before the oil companies have him whacked! :shades:
Cheap(in luxury standards) to buy second hand, and the leasee can go on to something else, like, the solid-as-gold in resale, S550.
Now, if someone found the anti-saltwater, and can combine the stuff with regular salt walter, and turn both chunks of mass into blinding light . . . now that would definitely break the energy monopoly, or at least replace the existing one with a new one :-)
Isn't that a huge loss for MB? If the car MSRP $60k, leased with a 60-mo residual of 48%, yet can only fetch 26% or less at auction, MB Financial is fresh out of $13+k! (48-26 = 22% of MSRP) In other words, the car is really worth only $47k or less. Between such write-downs and huge loss on bad business deals like Chrysler, no wonder MB faces inadequate resources to engineer the bugs out of their cars.
. . . like, the solid-as-gold in resale, S550.
Not bloody likely in real life. S550 has been on the market for only a year, so there is no data on 5yr old S550 yet. However, based on the past performance of S class, it's not promising. The high residual on lease offers is no indication of real life resale. E550 itself has much much higher 5-yr residual than 26%. It's only been a year since S550 general availability, the sales volume is already falling off the chart. Looks like another big write-down waiting to happen when the cars are returned at lease end.
Where a Mercury Grand Marquis might list for $30,000 or so it might actually sell for $22,000. or even less when new. So it has a built-in depreciation of about 25% BEFORE it is sold. GM just loves to play games with MSRP.
GM's whole business model is still based on their core belief that the people who buy their cars are really stupid so the more they can confuse and deceive them the better.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You should get that new replica Spitfire. It's able to do 220mph with a V6. Only about half as fast as the original with its Rolls-Royce V12, but it's also quite a bit cheaper
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't think its silly at all. The GS450h is a GS350 with a hybrid motor attached, so it's quite reasonable to ask "what does the electric motor and its 400lb. battery pack get me for my $10 grand?" The answer: not much. I doubt a .2 second advantage to 60 will be noticeable, and even granting the 450h a 1-3mpg advantage over the GS350, that will never make back the $10,000, not even with $5 gas. "What does it not get me?" Answer: a trunk.
The 450h gets the $3500 adaptive suspension option, and even at $13,000 more than the 350, it still won't handle as well. You can't get rid of that 400lb. anchor with an adaptive suspension. Other than that, it gets the VGRS active steering system. I'd pay extra to not have active steering.
Buy the GS350, take the $10K, and plant some trees with it. I'm sure the dealer will sell you the "Lexus Hybrid Drive" window sticker anyway, so you can still show off to your friends.
Well, I guarantee it won't be any of us since we spend all of our time right here! :shades:
Funny, I have the same situation. I just had some nice brick pavers installed in the driveway along with some landscaping. As soon as we finished, my neighbors did a similar project. However, they are not BMW people. :shades:
Totally agree. For the extra money, one should compare the hybrid and find quite a few advantages over the gasoline version...and I for one don't see any. Quite the opposite!
1. Carry 4 with luggage
2. A range of 1200miles, so it can reach southern Florida from MA on day trips, without the hassle of going through security lines with all the kids stuff
3. Prefer something that can land and takeoff on water, as we will soon have a lake and dock in our backyard, and the part of FLA that I'm interested is also surrounded by water.
4. Low wing load, so the stall speed is low, for safer landing; after all, I'm only an amature pilot :-) The particular flying boat that I mentioned has a stall speed of 35mph, quite incredible for fixed wing aircraft. There are other flying boats that can fly at speed above 200mph, but their stall speeds are close to 80mph.
Just to bring the topic back to car brands, if in the final analysis we have to go to a small airport for a land-based aircraft (safety, speed, cost, etc.), IMHO, an air taxi with the HondaJet in a couple years will be a no-brainer.
E X A C T L Y !!
Performance is a game of diminishing returns. That GS450h can deliver better accelearation than GS350 (the same 0.2 second difference as 550 over 535, and that is 0.2 second more than 760 has over 750) and deliver better gas mileage not worse at the same time is at this point quite unique in the industry. That alone makes for a far stronger argument for GS450h than cars like 760Li and 550i. After all, a big component in the decision to buy those higher trim levels is exclusivity.
The S550 sales " fallen off the charts"? Hardly, 3% overall isn't enough to pull the car from the assembly line. Better yet, it's an accomplishment. It's an accomplishment for a car that STARTS at $20k more than it's competition, where most of them top out at fully loaded.
MBZ is very smart at keeping the choices just to one single mainstream(no S450 or S350 or S320 CDI's, yet) model for now. That will ensure the car's value stay relatively high. Factoring in the still-high demand for it and it's limited-edition AMG models, I see no reason the S550 can't keep it's great resale value.
Heck, around here their are CPO S-Classes going for 80-85k, where you may as well by new. Similar situations happens with Honda Accords.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/07/03/054030.html
And the LS had nothing to do with it. :mad:
And I didn't say this would happen last year, either.
No. :surprise:
That said, it is on pace to sell 25k this year, which is still pretty good, IMO.
DrFill
I'm with you 100%. I would buy a 750 over a 760, and a 535i over a 550i. As long as the smaller engine is fast "enough", then why spend more? The problem with the 450h is that the better gas mileage isn't "free", it costs you the trunk. If you go to the BMW dealer to buy a 550i and the salesman says "we can improve the gas mileage a smidge over the 535i, but we have to cut the trunk in half", how many buyers do you think would sign up for that?
Say you need to take 3 to the airport. How amused would your passengers be if you said "sorry you have to hold your luggage on your knees, but I'm saving 2mpg!"
This is why diesel, at least with hybrid technology where it is right now, is the better deal, especially in cases where the diesel is just as fast as its gasoline powered counterpart, like the A6 3.0TDi. You still get the mpg boost, and the luggage goes in the perfectly normal trunk.
I meant from a "carbon offset" standpoint, not turning the trees into biofuel. Or you could spend the money on solar cells.
Ofcourse that may have something to do with buyers favoring the SWB over the LWB version. Or it may have something to do with buyers wanting less options.
Or the most likely reason is that dealers are trying to move LS models with better deals.
But what is certain is that overall LS buyers are willing to pay less than what they did just 5 months ago by opting for a smaller or less gizmo equipped LS or getting incentives in order to buy one. The value of an LS according to buyers' eyes is being diluted as each month goes buy.
This 5 year old MB E55 is not representative of every single MB. And the MB S Class sales have dropped the very same reason that LS sales will drop next year. THere's nothing too shocking about that.
I always appreciate your rhetoric, but you've made some outstanding claims here. :confuse:
Please show all work.
DrFill
I like your thinking. But how long does it take for Nissan to start thinking?
Almost every luxury auto firm has or will soon have a high end performance marque (M, AMG, RS, F). But what about Infiniti the company that began its days with an emphasis on performance? NOPE. And the GT-R? Nope that will be a Nissan.
Makes no sense to me.
My sales dropping comment relates to LS sales next year. I predict with 20/20 Vision that Lexus LS June YTD 2008 sales will be lower than June YTD 2007 sales. LS sales will drop quite similarily to MB S Class sales YTD June 2007 unless Lexus agressively increases their incentives on LS models.
I am so confident about my LS vision of the future that I am even willing to make a wager on this one. Well is it a bet? Yes or No ? :shades:
This analysis does not help justifyting the existence of a GS450h whatsoever.
Whoever said a LWB 760 should accelerate far faster than a SWB 750. Can you recall that you made a similar argument not too long ago regarding a LWB LS hybrid versus a SWB LS? Was it not you who said a LWB luxury cruiser is not all about acceleration?
As I said the BMW 550i vs. 535i comparison is due mainly to timing issues since the 535i was just recently revamped. Was it not today that you made a similar argument regarding the Lexus GS430 versus a GS350?
An Accord V6 does accelerate far faster than an Accord i4. Therefore your argument regarding the Accord carries little weight.
I get tired of being right, but you're on! Just to prove a point (again). :shades:
DrFill
Almost all models sales drop after first year introductions. There is nothing radical about that notion wheter it's a Benz S Classor a Lexus LS. In addition MB has been quite tight fisted regarding incentives for its S Class cars and that is why sales have dropped 20 percent. But as you know MB has a potential secret weapon to offset such a drop and that is a future S450 , a Blutec S Class and let us not forget the cabrio version.
Do we have a bet?
DrFill
O c'mon Doc that's a chicken and egg argument.
A sales rise does not make a model hot. The C Class sales increased within double digits. Does that make a C Class hot? Nope. The real reason is incentives. And greater price flexibility from Lexus dealers will be the only way that LS sales do not drop double digits next year.
Yes it's a bet. But I must warn you that I've never ever lost a bet so far in these forums. I even won two bets with Merc1 himself regarding MB. (that in itself is a lofty accomplishment)
My kids or even my wife dont even know that I go to Edmunds. If one of my kids ever becomes a full time Edmunds forum member then that will be 100 percent due to my genes and 0 percent due to my teachings and influence.
When my grandkid was here, I took him to some "build your own" manufacturer websites and he had a great time changing the colors of the cars... so did I! :shades:
This is turn is a source of good quality (e.g., 100% free maintenance for 4 years) trade ins back to the dealer for Bimmer to Certify and the dealer to sell/lease to someone else.
And around and around it goes.
In a hint of what could be coming from Volvo, MY '07 XC Volvo wagons are now available for a factory to consumer incentive of 10K off MSRP, but only if you lease. If you buy you only get 4K off from the factory. Cruise on over to the XC Lease discussion on Edmunds for more on this.
Before anyone thinks that there is a free lunch, there is a lot of empirical data showing the impact of new car incentives on used car pricing. The price of a used XC Wagon just went down a lot because of this lease program.
760LI was being compared to 750LI . . . it's no quicker;
550i was being compared to 535i . . . it's not much quicker;
It would be logic inconsistency indeed if one expects GS450h to be much quicker than GS350.
As I said the BMW 550i vs. 535i comparison is due mainly to timing issues since the 535i was just recently revamped. Was it not today that you made a similar argument regarding the Lexus GS430 versus a GS350?
Once again, I have been very logically consistent. GS350 was introduced after GS450h. When GS450h was introduced, the other GS models were GS430 and GS300.
An Accord V6 does accelerate far faster than an Accord i4. Therefore your argument regarding the Accord carries little weight.
Even then, despite the large speed handicap that you allege for the lower model, most people seem to find the I4 better deal than V6, as the sales numbers show. Goes to show that it is always easy to make a value argument for the lower model variant in the line up. . . sound familiar? Once again, I was being logically very consistent.