Luxury Lounge

lexusguy

All of this is to say that you can't continue with the status quo. Yes we know that Toyota can build quality vehicles and sell them by the boatload. But what else? Honda also builds top quality cars, but has the strongest resale value and the best CAFE standards around.

Both Honda and Toyota have had significant quality gaffes in the past. Acura had the very embarrasing CL\TL transmission recall a few years ago. The new RL has been a quality disaster, with SH-AWD lockups, and massive electrical problems.

Toyota had the sludge issue with their old 3.0L V6, and some pretty massive recalls recently.

The days of huge quality leads by the Japanese are over. They have basically plateaued, while the Americans, Europeans (other than the French) and Koreans are all improving.

skk480

I'm sorry to sidetrack a thread, but i'm new to the board and was uncertain where i could obtain an answer.
I have the choice of a 07' Lexus GS 350 AWD fully loaded and a 07' Mercedes E350 4 matic with a nice package (not premium package 1 and sports package that is free). The prices are pretty much the same. All things considered, which vehicle would you suggest to purchase. Thank you.

tagman

houdini - numerous gripes about a Lexus flagship are not your average run-of-the-mill complaints... and that LS forum has not been of that characteristic typically. I don't feel any "shame". as you put it for recognizing all the recent gripes.

As Hemi pointed out, the older Mercedes S-Class got grilled for quality issues, and if the LS460 is showing quality issues, it is significant and deserves any discussion anyone, including myself, wants to make of it.

Haven't you noticed that Toyota has not been at the top, or as high up on the list as it used to be, of some of the important quality surveys recently?

Everyone here is smart enough to know what that means.

Gee... "shame" on me for mentioning it? Guilty as charged! LOL.

TagMan

brightness04

Come on, get real. Mercedes-Benz has been making crappy cars for the last two decades, yet consumer perception did not catch up until the last few years, most probably still don't get it; some even around here, who are supposedly reasonably well informed regarding cars, still wishfully think Mercedes are high quality cars (or the next one will be, even after such anticipation having been dashed every new model year for the last two decades). It takes time for market perception to catch up to reality. Is Toyota's lead in quality over the industry average diminishing? Probably, if nothing else, Toyota's growing market share itself would make the industry average closer to Toyota quality. Is MB vehicle price premium over the industry average diminishing? Of course, with more than half of its global sales now consisting of el cheapo A/B/C third-class cars. However, MB as a brand still retains luxury marque status in consumer perception. Toyota's privileged position in terms of quality in consumer perception is going to take much more than a few glitches and years if not decades to undo. Just look at MB, which has been making shoddy cars that are poorly designed, poorly engineered and poorly put together for two decades at the least, yet still holds a privileged status in consumer minds.

As for Prius, the production volume has quadrupled over the last few years, so the per unit production cost has become much much less than when it was a low-volume production run. It only makes sense to lower price a little to increase sales . . . the per unit profit is still far higher today than when it was introduced. It's called economy of scale, so that Toyota will have the funds to properly design, engineer the bugs out and have the right kind of production line in place to make Prius III . . . something that MB could do well learn from, so that they can stop fumbling from one project to another, churning out shoddy cars one after another that are under-engineered and destined to have their customers to work as beta-testers.

drfill

You aren't going to lend any credence to that are you? Are you reporting the news, or are you a sold customer?

Ford isn't thinking credibility right now. They are thinking survival! :surprise:

All I can say about Ford is they will do, or say, anything to sell a vehicle at this point, and the F-150 is one of it's weakest links right now.

Payload I'll give them. Towing......ask a Ford owner what the truck can tow. Better than asking Ford. I think you know what the deal is. :lemon:

They should take their lumps, and make sure the '09 kicks a whole bunch of tail.

DrFill

brightness04

If S class were having those problems, there wouldn't even be any discussion . . . it would be par for the course. Lexus and Toyota are still at or near the top of quality surveys. The surveys that do not have them at the top are "consumer satisfaction" surveys. What that means is that consumers have very high expectations of Lexus and Toyota, unlike customers of some other brands who would file failures under the pretense of the car having a "personality." Even the Germans rank Honda and Toyota number 1 and 2 in terms of vehicle quality for cars sold over there.

lexusguy

I'm sorry to sidetrack a thread, but i'm new to the board and was uncertain where i could obtain an answer. I have the choice of a 07' Lexus GS 350 AWD fully loaded and a 07' Mercedes E350 4 matic

The Luxury Performance Sedans thread is devoted to this class of car. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of either one. The '06 GS has seriously bad quality for a Lexus. Granted it was the first MY, but Lexus usually doesn't need such excuses on initial year cars. Aside from that, the interior isn't as roomy as it should be, the driving experience is fairly bland for a "sports" sedan, and the trunk is Corolla sized.

The E is now the grandpa of the class, it just can't match the newer cars for latest tech. The COMAND system is last gen, and I just find the car to be boring overall.

I would highly recommend taking a look at the Volvo S80 and Audi A6.

houdini1

Good grief man, if you want to read about problems just go to the S class forum. Better yet, just post a link to the last few pages of that baby if you want to read about real nightmares.

There is one poster there who has put up a $10,000. challenge to Mercedes that says once an S class has electrical problems they can NEVER be fixed. He has had over 100,000 hits but no takers.

Like you, I only mention this as a public service, as I feel it is my "duty" to share this info with you. :lemon:

hpowders

When can a Prius do 100 mph?

When it is falling off a cliff!

As for Tagman and his shameful exhibition of the truth by posting what is going on in that "other" thread:

R E P E N T ! ! !

Absolutely priceless!!! LMAO!!!

Now let me get back to my summer vacation where the sun is strong, and the :lemon:-ade is weak. :shades:

lexusguy

When can a Prius do 100 mph?

When it is falling off a cliff!

The Prius is more than capable of 100mph, under its own power. Just ask Al Gore's son.

drfill

Green Power! :P

DrFill

hpowders

Heh! Heh! Very true!

hpowders

It serves a purpose, I guess. Several in my community. Only comes in one color?

tagman

This "shameful" poster actually OWNS a Toyota (FJ Cruiser) along with the Porsche. So... I have no hidden agenda. Truth is what it is... just like I have posted if anyone reads correctly... Toyota gets credit for their success over the years, but they have slipped from previous positions in a number of recent important surveys.

And the Lexus LS board's posters have certainly been reporting gripes not usually typical for that board.

What a horrible (and, oh yes, shameful) thing for me to post.

TagMan

tagman

What a possible letdown this will be. The interior of the upcoming XF likely won't be like the beautiful concept. Instead it will only be the familiar Jag interior... and we all know how well THAT sells.

Here's the original concept:



Here's the likely real interior:



Here's the link:

link title

TagMan

drfill

That concept looks Japanese!

The production at least looks like somethin'.

Take a look at the EvoX concept vs the production. Now that's a letdown! :mad:

DrFill

dewey

When can a Prius do 100 mph?
When it is falling off a cliff!

When can a Prius achieve 60mpg EPA figures?
When it is falling off a cliff while the driver's not pressing the gas pedal

tagman

Now, HERE's where Toyota gets credit for the FJ Cruiser for example (that I own) for sticking with the concept!

It is also my understanding that the upcoming GM Chevrolet Camaro will be very close to concept and be a gorgeous coupe.

Unfortunately, too many times the concept is great, only to be replaced by a run-of-the-mill boring vehicle.

In this case, too bad for Jaguar... as their death gets even closer.

TagMan

bristol2

It is also my understanding that the upcoming GM Chevrolet Camaro will be very close to concept and be a gorgeous coupe.

Let's just hope it gets GM's 'new' approach to interiors, not some recycled, mis-matched, grey and black plastic interior (should that read inferior?) that GM used to love so much.

dewey

numerous gripes about a Lexus flagship are not your average run-of-the-mill complaints... and that LS forum has not been of that characteristic typically

Yes I noticed that myself. Also what I notice is that the most avid fans of Toyota/Lexus reliability are usually the owners of dated models from the 80s and 90s.

The relentless increase in electronics and complexity within all new luxury cars will make high standards of reliability and durability as nothing more than remnants of a foregone era.

Is it mere coincidence that the most reliable cars today are cars with minimal complexity and electronics ( Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas)? In contrast during the 80s the most reliable cars were luxury Benzes. My 83 MB300D was a benchmark for reliability and durability.

By trying to impress us with its newest technologies Lexus is sacrificing its reputation for reliability. IMO that is like a hangman trying to tighten his own noose. Reliability is the oxygen for the existence of Lexus. Without it there's really no compelling reason to buy one.

hpowders

"Not pressing the gas pedal."

The problem as I see it is wouldn't one sorta run out of time before actually figuring out the EPA figures? That would have to be one swift calculator! Heh! Heh!

As far as jokes go, Dewey, the Pry-us cannot deny-us!

Good to see there is a healthy dose of reliability woes throughout the boards. One can get 3 Lexi in a row that are total lemons or be "lucky" like me and have 3 consecutive BMW's that have been perfect.

Perhaps the lesson here is: be a bit more humble before bashing fine German reliability or as we say, who the heck are you to cast the first stone? :P

tagman

I'm sure picking BMW as your ride three times in a row was nothing more than a flip of the coin... and everything except the engine hasn't fallen apart yet?

You "lucky" dog.

TagMan

tagman

Reliability is like oxygen for Lexus. Without it there's really no compelling reason to buy a Lexus.

So true.

TagMan

hpowders

Yep. Tough getting through on the interstate with all those tow trucks hauling 3's, 5's, 7's and M'3's off to the shoulder.

All kidding aside, I just know the day I switch from BMW to a Japanese brand will be the day I have my first problem.
Some kind of poetic justice just waiting to happen! :surprise:

tagman

At a minimum, You'll be the first guy to have the plastic wood fall off the interior of the MDX... which come to think of it, might not be so bad afterall.

TagMan

hpowders

"No compelling reason..."

That's okay. I'm sure BMW and MB will somehow manage to provide those disappointed folks with something good to buy.

The shock for the ones changing to BMW will be how to handle getting a great comprehensive warranty for the very first time!

hpowders

Yes! If the plastic wood falls off, it just may reveal some fine sleek brushed aluminum! LOL!!

bristol2

The shock by changing to BMW will be how to handle getting a great comprehensive warranty for the very first time!

Won't the handling itself be enough of a shocking new experience?

tagman

LOL.

TagMan

hpowders

Normally, yes, but when combined with 4 years of free bumper to bumper maintenance along with the same designer agua as found at the Lexus place... well, I am normally a man of many words, but the word to describe this intensity of ecstasy hasn't been invented yet. :shades:

PS: Perhaps Hallelujah from "Handle's"(heh! heh!) Messiah!

tagman

I must admit, your idea of aluminum is so good, you should send it to Acura headquarters... maybe someone there can see the benefit.

TagMan

hpowders

The brushed aluminum does wonders for the interior of the Camry SE. At least the phony wood in the Acura is dark. The other Toyota have that nauseating phony mustard colored wood that I find... well... nauseating! :surprise:

tagman

Here's the summary of the big hit that the hybrids are experiencing in the '08 EPA ratings.

link title

Seems to me diesels will fair very well, with a simpler powertrain, and with a lower cost of fuel as well.

TagMan

tagman

Yeah... and what about that orange wood... what the heck is THAT?

TagMan

hpowders

I believe the new Highlander gets that orange "wood"... of course, only on the more expensive "Limited" edition. They really know how to throw good taste out the window!

What I do have to credit Toyota for is for the first time I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) they have produced a backup camera independent of a Nav system. It will be available in all but the very cheapest Highlanders.

dewey

just know the day I switch from BMW to a Japanese brand will be the day I have my first problem.

My suggestion: If you're going to change then get a Japanese car with a at least a wood interior. Otherwise everyday while you're driving that phony wood will become an eyesore.

Simulated wood belongs in economy cars for people who like to pretend they're not driving an economy car. A luxury car with simulated wood is incomprehensible IMO.

syswei

Here's the summary of the big hit that the hybrids are experiencing in the '08 EPA ratings.

E320 Bluetec takes a similarly "big hit", percentage-wise, as its most similar competitor in hybrids, the GS450h.

hpowders

I would be afraid of getting cancer from inhaling all those plastic molecules in the MDX.

dewey

THe most expensive 08 Highlander still does not compare to the far more superior and better looking Hyundai Veracruz with or without a independent back-up camera.

hpowders

Well the folks I trust say the Veracruz steering has no feel and the car leans badly when turning. Still, as I have posted all along, do not take Hyundai for granted. If Toyota and Honda slack off, Hyundai will be there to pick up the pieces.

I am seeing many more Hyundais on the road over the last half a year. Their SUVs are quite good-looking, IMO. They are working quite aggressively at changing that "cheap" perception many folks still have of them. They have my respect as well as my attention.

gtoskyline

Lexus Supercar LF-A: another spy video

Expected to debut at October Tokyo Auto Show.

Very likely: a 550+hp v10, a sequential F1 type gearbox, under 2,800lbs.

Price tag: $175,000~$200,000

Lexus has promised "the ultimate weight balance", "extravagant comfort" and "precision operation."







There also might be a convertible and a hybrid versions.

drfill

hadn't heard about a flyweight edict, but having seen the car in person (it's not a small car), 2800-2900lbs would be pretty light for that car, being a Lexus, having to act as a Lexus would, with quality materials expected of a $200k car.

I don't expect a sub-3k car from them on this. Maybe impossible, even for Lexus. :surprise:

DrFill

dewey

link title

pat

Regarding some recent posts here today, there are some Things that need to be said.

Thing One: Taking a page of any discussion and dragging it here for the purpose of "proving" something - positive or negative - is just silly, distracting and unnecessary. If you have some comments of your own to make about the subject then do so, but please do not drag other discussions into this one.

Thing Two: The sarcastic meanness of a number of recent posts is completely uncalled for. There are some of you who have been warned about this behavior in the past. If it continues, you will be discontinuing your membership in this discussion.

Thing Three: Pretty much anything goes as far as subject in this discussion, but disrespect for your fellow members is unacceptable anywhere. Which pretty much sums up Thing One and Thing Two.

Questions, comments? Email me. But this recent ugly line of posts needs to end.

Thank you.

tagman

Yes, Dewey, I agree that "ridiculous" is the correct word for that kind of writing.

Just imagine still getting paid to do THAT. :surprise:

TagMan

brightness04

Reality is a probabilistic process. My dog is probably smarter than quite a few human beings (especially ones that are in a coma, for example), but it's still a valid statement to say that human beings on average are far smarter than dogs. Likewise, sure, there are unlucky instances with Lexi, and especially lucky ones even among German buyers, but like Dirty Harry once said . . . :-)

tagman

My dog is probably smarter than quite a few human beings

definately the human being that wrote the article Dewey posted. :P

BTW, what kind of dog? :shades:

TagMan

tagman

Likewise, sure, there are unlucky instances with Lexi, and especially lucky ones even among German buyers,

So... are you therefore implying that an unreliable Lexus is the unlucky non-typical event, and that the reliable German car is the lucky non-typical event?

TagMan

brightness04

Good to have real numbers. Hearing all the earlier talks about hybrids taking great hits using '08 testing method, I had thought it was some real issue. Now the numbers are on the table, it looks like hybrid advantage is even more obvious. Looks like hybrids are going to have an exclusive lock on the 40+ club as none of the non-hybrids can probably garner 40+ combined, short of placing a lawn mower drive train inside a car. No wonder MB is considering reviving the S240D name plate in order to have acceptable mileage readings. The S600 reading might fall below 12 combined, and below 10 for city.

brightness04

Probabilisiticly speaking, yes.