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Comments
The most expensive car from Toyota/Lexus today is still the Toyota Century, IIRC.
IMHO, BMW would do great selling a 5-series reskineed as RR SilverGhost at $50k, or even at $90k. Isn't that more or less what VW has done with the Bentley brand? Cobbling together a car from VW/Audi parts bin, and have a price tag that undercuts RR and Maybach. In any case, Lexus models are not priced at huge price premium over previous Aritso, Celsior and Soarers. Over time, that price premium may indeed increase, but not now, yet anyway. It's a bit like the LX experience, the first model year only had a $5k or so price premium over Landcruiser. It didn't take long for LX to far out-sell Landcruisers. There is a price point for everything . . . just a matter of whether the exercise makes money for the company in the long run (or for the next quarter, for that matter).
Yes the M3 will definitely keep the RS4, CTS-v, C63, and
IS500 up on their feet.
As for the steering, it's not as razor-sharp as that of the M-Coupe or that of, say, the old M3. But I do believe BMW took a step back on this on purpose to avoid guys like us that hate Active Steer. And if they had dialed in any more feedback, you'd know every inch of grain on the asphalt.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it's still as telepathic and true as ever. Not very many cars this side of Ferrari offers this type of effortless steering. Ok maybe your 911 still has the edge, but the M3 is definietely unchartered territory in regards to it's steering.
To put it in to motion, as much as I enjoyed my blast to Philly last week in a "borrowed" 335 Coupe(a freggin phenomenal car, forget G37S cuz this is it) , the M3's steering system takes it up 10 notches. It's not as go-kart quick as say, a Mini Cooper John Works or your past love Lotus Exige, but nowhere near as darty as the RS4(sneeze and you're done).
All in, until I test the CTS-v and C63, the M3 is the new top dog. The RS4 should concede until the new '09 debuts.
Pat, KarenS, D-Man- What's up wit dat?
With the R8, I guess Audi can come in.
DrFill
RR is working on a smaller car to slot below the Phantom, and it most likely will go after the Flying Spur. There's zero chance of it being based on 5-series mechanicals though, or coming in at much under $200K. The next gen 7 wouldn't be a bad platform to use, however.
RS cars have traditionally been extremely pricey. Expect the RS6 to cost more than the M5.
Lexus also employs twice as many inspectors as the typical Toyota plant, which is already among the industry leaders. The combination of the best trained workers working in a clean environment, the end product being inspected by skilled human inspectors using the latest in computerized analysis guarantees that these top-of-the-line Lexi are truly world-class. At $100,000, we expect owners of the LS600h will appreciate this kind of attention to perfection, even if they don't know what is happening behind the scenes along the assembly line.
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You drove a V8 M3? WOW, you're a step ahead of the majority of avid BMW fans. Was it a 6 speed manual?
I'd like to test drive one although I have no desire whatsoever to buy one (unless certain contrarian investment bets of mine payoff--very unlikely at this point of time).
And hypothetically if I ever bought one I would definitely buy in the USA where the M3 sells at a significantly lower price than in Canada even with 6.1 percent taxes which would be involved with sending it over the border and ofcourse assuming that BMW Canada respects warranty services for US sourced Bimmers which may not be the case. Also I would have a speedometer which I would choose not to convert from miles to kilometers . That could hit the resale value of my car since most Canadians prefer not mentally converting miles to kilometres everyday when they drive.
American customers like their Hondas. Most Europeans like their Hondas. Most Asians like their Hondas. The only exception are the Japanese where I believe Suziki outsells Honda. Go figure?
THe reason Hondas seems to have such universal appeal is that they seem to have a history of having the most sensibly priced and engineered cars with the highest quality worldwide . And they still do make the most sensible cars especially with their i4 models.
Cant wait to drive their new Accord diesel. I may buy an Accord diesel instead of a V8 M3 if my contrarian investment bets do not pan out :sick:
Although I'd still be content and happy driving a more humble diesel Accord.
While we are on the subjective topic of appearances, some may consider that RR's are achaic, BMW's are too superficially modern, and mini's are suicidally small :-)
I wasn't aware of any substantial difference in the mechanicals of the V8 7 series that is not shared with the V8 5 series. Sheet metal and wheelbase stretching are not exactly mechanical issues. BMW AG doesn't have many mainstream mechanical systems:
1. The V8 hooked up to the auto tranny;
2. The I-6 hooked up to the auto or manual; sometimes with a turbocharger attached, some other times with two welded together to make a V12;
3. The I-4 used in not-for-USA market;
4. The I-4 with transaxle used in mini
5. some diesel
6. some two-cylinder boxer engines for motorcycles
7. some single-cylinder engine for really low-end motorcycles.
That's about it. I'd hazard to guess that only (1) and (2) above are suitable for application in RR.
Inside shots to come.
No mention of price in the e-mail I received. Wonder how obscene....
What am I saying?? It must be obscenely expensive either way.
What am I saying?? It must be obscenely expensive either way.
Not only obscenely expensive but also obscenely gaudy and ostentatious.
Just give me the SLK and I will travel without that gas consuming RV. Is this vehicle subsidized by OPEC? Personally I'd rather stay overnight in a Best Western motel than in those flashy RV interior surroundings.
With these super-lux buses there's a built in limit though, because they have to be able to fit on public roads. They'll never be able to match the 500ft. mega-yachts on the inside, there's just not enough space.
The Century could be an FBI agent's car built by Ford Motor Company...
IMHO.
TagMan
DrFill
Vegas-style on steroids!! ... and the price tag on some can be 7 digits! Insane, IMO.
BTW, I recently discovered that there are some "houseboats" that can be as far off-the-wall. Hard to believe, but true.
TagMan
I did notice that even the gaudiest of those looked less like a Vegas restroom than that bus...
The M3's base hovers around $58k.
The RS4 is not overpriced considering it runs with the supposed top-dog in the biz, the M5. And it's $90k pricetag is down right obscene. But maybe nothing will be more obscene and disgusting as the uber-poseur that is due to arrive on our shores very soon. The IS500 will be the most ridiculous thing to ever happen to this class of car. Lexus knows it, and that's why they dumbed it down with an auto-only transmission so it doesn't have to compete directly with the top manual cars.
The RS4 is not overpriced for what you get. 0-60 in 4.3 secs. Enough room for you and 3 of your best friends. Seeing the front end of an IS500 disappear in your rearview? Priceless.
While super cool and without peer(for now), it just wouldn't be wise to be buy it for a daily driver.
The 335iC will serve just fine. And with all of the performance upgrades coming online now, you may just as well build your M3, as many people here in States already do with E90's.
Thanks
Please tell me we're not here again with the Audi smashing?
You really don't wanna go there, trust me.
Regarding the Super IS, without a stick I don't think much of it, although it is much better looking in person than in photos.
Not getting how you place an A4 in the 5-series class. Once it has it's way with the M3, then we can move it up. Seems overpriced for an A4, doh. :surprise:
DrFill
I like the way you put that.
TagMan
The numbers aren't as scary as you reported. I'd be surprised if the IS or M3 couldn't catch this car from behind.
The IS350 runs around 5.3, and the 335i is already below 5 seconds. :surprise:
I don't see a M5 competitor in an Audi RS4, but the M3 does have someone to play with, and the CTS-V and IS500 will try to make it a quartet.
$70k plus seems high for an Audi A4. The CTS-V and IS won't be anywhere near that.
I wouldn't discredit any of them, at this point.
DrFill
Read the recent full page's posts on this LS460 forum.
Shocking?
link title
TagMan
DrFill
The name IS500 was never official and was created by fan/media speculations.
Yes the M5 has more power, but is only marginally quicker and to get that you have to go through 7 steps. By the time that happens, the Audi is at the next stoplight waiting on round two.
And you're right, they all seem a bit overpriced. If I were to purchase in the arena, definitely the E63 is the best way to go. True it too is a slush-box, but at 4.0 secs flat to 60 and you can haul the family in the best luxury(in it's class) and safety(5 stars all around) in the process, it's a no brainer @ $85k. \
But all in, the M3 is now the reigning champ, again. I've never liked this newest M5, the previous model was the best, but not in class. The RS6 blowed it away like junk mail in a tornado, much like the upcoming RS will do with it's 600hp and AWD.
DrFill
Indeed!! Is this the 2000 S-Class all over again? Or is this something that is going to work it's way out?
The S550 doesn't seem to have this many dismayed loyal followers.
Factor in the wobble/transmission woes of the Toyota Tundra, the tranny failures of the Camry/Avalon and slipping build quality, I must again state that you can never get "this big this fast" without having some major issues. These are major, involving bread-n-butter cars.
Believe it or not, Toyota should take a page from GM. Go ahead and laugh, but look what they've done.
2004- Stockholders are told to prepare for a rough ride
2005- The company is put on life support
2006- Signs of life are witnessed and renewed interest are again abound around the company.
2007- With a slew of new crossovers, pickups, and cars, the company is reinvigorated at a pace not seen by any automaker in recent times.
Factoring in the new Lambda crossovers(seen by some as best in class), superior trucks, new cars in the pipeline that actually can drive and be parked next to a Camry or Accord(Saturn Aura XR, anyone?), all of the fixes at Cadillac, Pontiac's pledge to go all RWD, Chevy's plan for the Camaro and RWD Impala/Impala Hybrid, Buick's renewed interests(12500 Lucernes per month ain't easy, and this isn't all rental fleets, oh and smooth Enclave helps), HUMMER's continued expansion(despite high gas prices, the H3 continues to be a solid seller), the differentiation for GMC from Chevy(the Sierra Denali is currently the most powerful pickup on the market and the Yukon Denali is the best buy among big luxury SUV's, some suggest)
All of this is to say that you can't continue with the status quo. Yes we know that Toyota can build quality vehicles and sell them by the boatload. But what else? Honda also builds top quality cars, but has the strongest resale value and the best CAFE standards around.
Toyota- It's time for a new deck of cards
So? :confuse:
Camry sets sales records.
Tundra sets records every month. takes sales from GM every month.
Lexus LS sets a new quality record every year (#1 in IQS for the umptenth time, 12th straight year as #1 in dependability).
And the LS takes a nice chunk of S-Class customers with them. :surprise:
Now they are building new Hybrid engines that are the envy of ALL automakers.
And now Armegeddon is upon Toyota because why? 20 Camshafts? :confuse:
Does Audi, or Mercedes, or VW, or GM want to compare strengths with Toyota now? 10 years ago?
Since when is Tundra "status quo"? Prius? Building the best truck drivetrain in America? 40MPG family sedans?
Let me know when to take you seriously, Hemi. And when you have a leg to stand on. :sick:
DrFill
Doc... did you use the link to the LS460 forum and actually read the last recent page of posts? If so, I think that gives hemi plenty of leg to stand on. Those are actual LS460 owners and supporters making those posts.
Toyota deserves a lot of credit over the years, but some of the recent woes that are hitching a ride with their success are a fact of life. And if arrogance and denial get in the way, then the result will be even worse for Toyota.
TagMan
However, with such boastiing on the "great accomplishments" and "magnificent accolades" of Toyota/Lexus, you failed to address the blaring problems that are associated with Toyota's explosive growth. It becomes harder and harder to stop that assembly line when your all-to-precious quota is at stake. QUALITY is what Toyota built their reputation off of, and it is starting to fade, albeit slowly.
You can nitpick at the other makes all you wish, but when there is an apparent agreement on problems with the LS on this forum, among others, then there is something seriously wrong. Something as minute as electrical interference will indeed send the LS into a panic mode that has never been chartered.
Funny that you mentioned Toyota's Hybrid models. As excellent as they are, why is that Toyota has decided to scale back on them at a time of critical need. The Prius needs an incentive to sell? 2k does make for an attractive offer, but it's alarming at the very least for the very car that was supposed to change the world, and selling far beyond MSRP in the process at one point.
40-MPG family sedans? Ah, yes. At one point, that was a good advertising scheme. But my friend, you see, it's time for 2008. And what does that mean. The REAL EPA mgg measurements that should've taken place years ago. Try about 28-30 on that Camry Hybrid, right along with the fabled Prius.
Tundra- Best truck powertrain. Horsepower isn't everything, and you should know that. It has come out that it isn't the best in towing, as the false ads suggested. Even when the Tundra is properly equipped to the max, the tired F-150(11000) and the shining star Silverado/Sierra(10950) twins are better at payload and towing. The Tundra is setting a new record for itself now that it has made itself out to be a legit and true full-sizer. The Detroiters aren't barred at the relatively low numbers. With a 200k cap, and even with incentives, its nothing to call the boys home about.
Yes the Lexus is greatly loved by its loyal following. No dispute, but I highly doubt it's taking devout S-Class buyers along for the ride. " Their is no substitute for the founder and oldest nameplate of this class, and ever-enlighten 3-pointed star is still the pick for the elite of the elite.
Doc, I've told you time and time again that I like some of Toyota's vehicles and ideas. The Tacoma is the best bang for the buck, as it has been forever. And the marketing and driving force behind the Scion brand is nothing short of geniously phenomenal. The appeal for them is for everybody from 16-66.
But, their some critical issues that need to hashed out. Toyota NA, for once and for all, needs to make Japan stop calling the shots for America. What we like isn't what they like, and vice versa.
Status-quo. Yes, it is great to stick to a winning recipe. The Camry has appeal for all of the libarians and stamp collectors in the world. But the buck stops there. It's a mere appliance, whereas it's Accord counterpart is seen as the all-arounder, drawing crowds from all around the place. And don't even mention the "fun" Camry SE. Hardly, with it's tacked on body kit pieces and all. The Corolla? Need I say more. Stepping outside of the box in the right direction can land the company on an higher cloud than just producing more vehicles just to be number one in sales.
Counterpoint? I hope I was fluid and serious enough.
Hemi spins it like Toyota is now GM or something, and he knows better.
The last thing I'm worried about is Toyota quality.
Toyota has stated that they are not happy with their results of recent quality checks, and new initiatives are taking place, starting with the "Customer First" policy on the '08 Highlander.
They probably knew of any issues long before we did, and have a program now in place. That's all I need to hear.
It takes GM five years to even think about righting their ship.
Toyota is running at 95%, instead of 110%, and now the sky is falling? Taking over the world isn't easy, and many around here can't wait for Toyota, or A-Rod for that matter, to fall flat on their face. :sick:
Toyota is not arrogant. I am.
If you have a beef with Toyota, let me know. I'll address it. I'll play Press Secretary, gladly.
DrFill
40-MPG family sedans? Ah, yes. At one point, that was a good advertising scheme. But my friend, you see, it's time for 2008. And what does that mean. The REAL EPA mgg measurements that should've taken place years ago. Try about 28-30 on that Camry Hybrid, right along with the fabled Prius.
I'll use these quotes of yours, for example.
I, personally, have sold many Prius', at sticker. Have NEVER discounted a Prius, and made people feel FORTUNATE to get a Prius for under $25k (sticker), or even find one to buy! Regional offers may differ. But in truck country, I have had ZERO problems moving a Prius, in some cases before the car can arrive at the dealership.
Regarding the Camry, EPA sets those numbers, and they can change the numbers. Toyota just reports the findings, as do all makes.
If you check EPA.gov, and look up Owner Reports for economy, you will see Camry Hybrid at close at 34-35MPG, which will shame any other mid-size by a nice margin(Except the Prius, of course).
Wanna take any bets on if the Malibu Hybrid can get you NEAR 30MPG?
I really feel you have a mind for the car business. But I KNOW you didn't just say the F-150 can out-tow a Tundra? Oh, no you didn't! :mad:
DrFill
Oh yes I did!
The standard cab, 2WD 5.4, when properly equipped, is rated to tow 11000 pounds. Yes, that there is more than the any of the Tundra's numbers. I think it was Pat that corrected a fellow poster on this a while back. Can it do it with ease? Heck no, but no 1/2 ton pickup tows easily at the limit. Not even the Tundra.
Please show me one car specific forum where there are not some malcontents and I would be very surprised.
If you follow this forum closely you know that some of these guys have issues and axes to grind that are so far out that they are just unbelievable.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I don't see a M5 competitor in an Audi RS4, but the M3 does have someone to play with, and the CTS-V and IS500 will try to make it a quartet.
The 335i can do 4.8, and the M3 can do 4.8. Quite a leap there. I don't think the IS-F will have any trouble keeping up with the M3 or RS4. Despite the enormous price tag, the RS4 is still in the entry-lux class. The M5 is not. I'm sure the RS6 will be better than the M5, but it will also probably break $100K.