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Comments
Well it could be worse I could be a Porsche owner who desires a Camry instead.
After pouring bromide over VW these past few weeks I found a very positive article about VW/Porsche/Audi.
Wiedeking, who sits on the VW board, is still restless. He believes VW and its luxury brand, Audi, should be able to rival Toyota (and Lexus) in product development, manufacturing productivity, and financial performance. He wants VW to spend more on research and technology, sharpen its brand focus, and develop more products that are price-competitive overseas.
But in the 22 months since the mouse asked the elephant to the ball, the match looks like one made in heaven. Porsche's stock has climbed almost 200%, and VW's has more than doubled.
Why is it so important to Porsche that this relationship work? For an answer, look under the hood. Only about 20% of what makes a Porsche a Porsche - largely the engine and transmission - is made by Porsche workers. The rest is outsourced, mainly to VW. The Cayenne SUV, for example, was engineered alongside VW's own SUV, the Touareg. The steel structure for both vehicles is welded together on the same VW assembly line in Slovakia. When the much anticipated Panamera, Porsche's first four-door sports car, arrives in 2009, it will sport a body assembled and painted by VW at a plant in Hanover.
In effect, though Porsche was financially stronger, it needed VW more than VW needed Porsche. Buying a stake protected Porsche's access to VW factories. Besides, Wiedeking grins, "the share price was cheap."
link title
Denying the Veracruz it's rightful place shows the bias. Sometimes MT makes a mistake, granted, but I don't think they were wrong about the Veracruz. I think it's a winner and its sales are doing better than expected... hardly the way you portray the vehicle.
Bashing Hyundai doesn't befit a company that has accomplished so much in only 6 short years. Heck, no one can grow at that pace indefinately. It's not unreasonable to expect them to catch their breath.
IMHO.
TagMan
I'm not so sure about that. Hyundai has proven that they can do a lot of things as well as anybody in the last few years, but world class suspension tuning is not one of them. They are better than your average Toyota perhaps, but no match for the likes of Mazda and Nissan.
Infiniti is already revamping the M for only its third year on the market to counter the recently refreshed 5 series. Hyundai may be catching up with Toyota, but BMW and Infiniti are still a bit out of their league.
Denying the Veracruz it's rightful place shows the bias.
What is Veracruz' rightful place? Superior to RX? You're better than that, Tag! :mad:
That's like sayin' your pretty next door neighbor is hotter than Jessica Biel because you don't have to rent a limo to take her out.
I am an American. Americans see Audi for what they are. A stepchild to BMW. If you want to bang the drum for Audi, knock yourself out. Same goes for Hyundai. A marketing blitz based on them against Lexus is a joke.
They look foolish, and the people aren't buyin' it. Americans are smarter than usually given credit for.
Neither company impresses me, and they've had more than one opportunity.
Audi is a lost cause.
Think about it. Veracruz and Azera are good for 3k a month, which is no great shakes. But their core rots from within. Elantra and Sonata will lose 50k this year! :sick:
Hyundai needs to calm down and get real.
DrFill
For instance, the launch of Lexus has become the stuff of legend. But did you know that there was a staunch cadre within Toyota that wanted to see Lexus perish before it was even born? That Toyota's American brass fought with Japan over building a real full-size pickup with V-8 power more than 20 years ago? That dealers initially gave the cold shoulder to Toyota's entry into the captive finance market?
Link
Oh I do know you are American but do all Americans have difficulty accepting the new Audi R8, Audi RS4 and Audi RS6? Those three Audis in which BMW has difficulty catching up with (except the new M3 which may be as good as an RS4).
Your views on Hyundai is as outdated as a German car fan who claims that Infinit and Lexus can never ever build a car like a BMW or a MB. Dont you think ?
DrFill
that's progress. At least you did not deny my first paragraph regarding Audi.
Give me a day or two and I will persuade you about the new Genesis
Any company that does ANYTHING better than Toyota is going to be denied by you. Hyundai, while still fine tuning things, has come very far in an astonshingly short amount of time. You like to boast about "well, Lexus has done this and that in a short 17 years...", well, altho Hyundai has been here for just a short while longer, you have to give it the respect due for where it has come.
The cars they've produced up until now were true "disposible cars". You just did not keep them for more than 2 years, and that was generous.
Now you have a minivan that makes the Sienna look like substandard transport and has Oddessey levels of refinement and power.
You have a mid-size that when redesigned in '05, it was the toast of the town because the Camry and Accord were starting to stale. And got rave reviews and still is very decent to drive. It's like every car in every class: When it peers advance, it's left in the dark until it's refreshed. You're a car guy, I thought you knew things like this.
You have a full-size sedan that is really giving the Passat, Taurus(500?), and Avalon a reality check. And it offers it all, yes, at Hyundai's traditionally low price of entrance.
You have a compact/mid-size SUV that, while it is completely lost against the RAV4 in power, it contends very well in all other areas, including styling.
And then there is the Veracruz. If you can't see this SUV for what it is, then why are we even having this conversation. No it doesn't have the RX's overall sophistication, but I'll pass on the lit floor sills and overly shiny "plood" any day and take the $10-20k in savings and buy a new Hyundai Accent.
I know the sales aren't yet Toyota or GM caliber yet, but lets face it, they're well on their quest to be number 5 in the world, in fact outselling the established likes of Honda and Suburu last year.
And no, I'm not quarterbacking for Hyundai. I'm no convert. But I do appreciate they're willingness and eagerness to take on all categories, not just the ones they do good in.
And now with this Genesis, I'm sure this is to be the test of test for them to really see if they can muster the cut. I'm sure they can
TM
And with the M, I was meaning from a styling point of view.
Very few sedans approach the M's overall level of performance and sophistication. No worry there. Same with Mazda.
TM
So these grizzly Americans see the R8, RS6, RS4 as stepchildren?
The stepchild has the best interior in the biz?
The stepchild has some of the best engineers working for it in the world?
Oh and not to mention it has interest in one of the best car companies in the world, both technically and financially, Porsche?
I guess this is just like Cinderella. The sister may have won the argument, but she won the prize.
Please get with it Doc. The anit-Audi campaign is so whack now, even for you. You don't like Audi. There's nothing you can do about success. Get over it.
DrFill
Understandbly so. Yeah, I agree with the VW thing. When the last gen Jetta debut along with the refreshed Passat and new Touareg, all was good. But the competition sniffed it out like a blood hound.
But it happens to the best of them. Look at all of the fanfare the Camry has gotten. But it's archnemesis is on the horizon, the new Accord. Factor in TL-beating performance along with a squeaky clean diesel, the Camry will be pushed aside, for sure not in terms of sales, but in terms of overall being the talk of it all.
As for Porsche's interest, it's called nepotism. VW is owned by Porsche-Piech family, which also happens to own Porsche.
Hmmm, hmmmm,
volume-wise Audis sell far more than Lexuses on a global basis. . The basic A4 and the basic A6 are high volume cars relative to their Lexus equivalents.
Here's the view of one of the smartest automotive CEOs in the world:
Wiedeking, who sits on the VW board, is still restless. He believes VW and its luxury brand, Audi, should be able to rival Toyota (and Lexus) in product development, manufacturing productivity, and financial performance. He wants VW to spend more on research and technology, sharpen its brand focus, and develop more products that are price-competitive overseas.
The RS cars speak for themselves.
The R8 entered into a class that Audi has not even seen in the production world, yet has taken the world by storm and is relatively affordable for the type of car it is. I'm sure the LF-A won't have this type of acceptance nor performance as Lexus doesn't even no what a manual transmission is and their manumatics are not that impressive.
The mainstream cars, no matter what you think the sales suggest, are accepted well. Yes the A8 sales in limited numbers, but so does the Maserati QP and Jaguar XJ. So are they too "stepkids" and lacking as you've put it so many times?
Audi's Lemans record is without peer. Again, something it's Japanese competition didn't even know existed as it was in it's infancy when Audi was smashing speed records and winning trophies.
Audi owns one of the best performance car companies in the world. So embolden of a company, it makes people wait on $400k Murcielago LP's all the while teasing them with exhilarating performance.
It gets repeat request from a certain Japanese car company to reveal or share it's interior quality and design secrets and suppliers. It ain't gonna happen.
It builds the number 2 luxury car in the world, behind another German make.
It sells more cars in Asia than both of the "luxury" home country makers sell , combined.
It has the gall to sell a $70k compact 4-door hot rod, at full price with a wait list.
And to Edmunds, for the editors you love to boast about, the A8 just picked up yet another "Editors Most Wanted" listing for '07. But this car is so forgettable and not worthy of "Tier 1" acceptance, how dare they do such thing.
Don't even get me started on the history of this over 100 year old company that was moth-balled basically in '92 to the sparling company it is today.
Very successful, to say the least. The build cars people want to drive, not because they have to drive them, in the case of one company in it's quest for world domination.
So cheap in fact that certain things shouldn't even be said.
You say that all of the high-performance Audi's "are a waste of engineering resources".
If that is the case, with Lexus supposedly becoming so green, why is that the company is creating the "F" division?
The A4 sells in high enough volume to justify it's high-performance model. The A6 outsells the GS 3-1. Do I need to go there
As for Wiedeking's desires, well, it just goes to show that there's a huge gap between what is desired and what is reality. At least he is smart enough to acknowledge that as things stand right now, VW/Audi is not a viable rival to Toyota/Lexus.
Correction:
VW/AUdi is more than a viable rival. It can surpass Toyota/Lexus.
VW/Audi/Porsche top-notch second to none engineering is what's going to make that happen. It all boils down to engineering cars that people desire. The recent share prices of VW and Porsche did not recently go up triple digits for nothing. The market anticipates a great future for VW/Porsche/Audi because their great potential does exist.
Using other poster's 'names' is, at best, difficult to follow and, at worst, disrespectful of other's opinions and views.
A6 is a FWD-based car, so its proper competition in the Lexus line up is the midsized ES, not the GS.
Lexus, on the other hand, are the supreme vehicles that can do no wrong, are infallible, and do not even need the improvement that TMC has in store for them. No one can possibly compete with them.
:sick: :confuse:
TagMan
I meant here, not success in "The Bush"! In Class A ball. Here!
David Hasselhoff is like Lionel Richie in Germany.
Here he's a sloppy drunk, on a bad version of The Gong Show. :lemon:
DrFill
Lexus makes mistakes, too, but at least they have the priorities right: making the main-line products right is far more important than making halo cars.
Audi is on a roll now. Their US ascention is just at the beginning... mark my words... Audi is going to grow here very well... and their sales will prove it.
TagMan
I hate pulling out. That's a burn.
DrFill
Too late.
Porsche is practically in control of VW and both VW and Porsche are stronger as a result of their closer and more extensive synergies.
VW needs to get the market's attention... and hasn't really done so.
TM
VW has a USA problem. But VW thrives elsewhere.
VW in Europe has gained market share and VW is still number one in China (the soon to be biggest auto market in the world). So things may look bad for VW from USA but not from where I am sitting. Here in Canada VW sales are growing quite nicely.
Following that logic, the challenge for Toyota/ Lexus- who have never been accused of designing stylish vehicles is less attainable than Audi's challenge of improving in reliability stats.
I am yet to meet the customer who would take Lexus over Audi on any criteria than reliability. There is nothing wrong with that, it's the same decision that I would make, but Audi is a marquee brand with a great reputation.
You seem to be pretty hung up on how 'bush league' the European market is. Presumably because the US is a larger market.
What will happen to that position when India and China are bigger markets than the US? Since Buick seems to do so well in China, will that make them a premier league player?
TM
umm, yeah, (where' the memo), Maserati is the step child of Ferrari, which is the step child of the dying Fiat. Jaguar is the step child of a the dying Ford.
Audi's Lemans record is without peer.
Sure, after they banned super-duper turbo charged Honda's that made over 1000hps, yet allow Audi diesels to have more than 50% greater displacement than gasoline engines. They may as well nominate winners by tail curls (like dog shows).
Again, something it's Japanese competition didn't even know existed as it was in it's infancy when Audi was smashing speed records and winning trophies.
Sure, some horse breeders of yore were probably proud of that too, before they were dumped into the dust bin of history, in terms of land speed record.
It builds the number 2 luxury car in the world, behind another German make.
Which is? A4? The Camry/Crown competitor in much of the world?
It sells more cars in Asia than both of the "luxury" home country makers sell , combined.
Bologne. Toyota and Nissan each sells far more luxury cars than Audi in Aisa. Both have luxury models under their own plates that sell far more than luxury cars under Audi brand. It just so happens that Toyota and Nissan operate like MB in their home markets. The brand stands for luxury limos as well as taxi cabs.
It has the gall to sell a $70k compact 4-door hot rod, at full price with a wait list.
And lose money while doing it . . . while the company is teetering on financial disaster.
Lexus, on the other hand, are the supreme vehicles that can do no wrong, are infallible, and do not even need the improvement that TMC has in store for them. No one can possibly compete with them.
You don't folly.
I'm not saying Audi shouldn't spend money on super-expensive cars no one wants or cares about.
I just think they shouldn't spend money on super-expensive cars no one wants or cares about WHILE making normal luxury cars no one wants or cares cares about.
As the great Frank Barone would say:
"If your having problems with your woman, don't go out and get another woman. Now you've got two problems!"
DrFill
If that is the case, with Lexus supposedly becoming so green, why is that the company is creating the "F" division?The A4 sells in high enough volume to justify it's high-performance model. The A6 outsells the GS 3-1. Do I need to go there
Lexus' core models sell. They have a customer base to work with.
Audi, on the other hand.....Uh....your math is as strong as Audi's name 'round these parts:
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
DrFill
I just think they shouldn't spend money on super-expensive cars no one wants or cares about WHILE making normal luxury cars no one wants or cares cares about.
That's a point I have partial agreement with. Not the point about not making the R8, if that's what you are referring to. I fully endorse the R8 project, and expect to be a good thing for Audi.
What I do agree with is the notion that Audi is spread a little too thin with too many models. I think some model consolodation needs to happen, and as the market responds to all those models, Audi should take a cue and drop the ones that are borderline, and bolster the ones that get genuine interest in the marketplace.
TagMan
DrFill
The whole situation is a bit like the grow-back of burned patches of land: the simple pioneer plants get established first, then more sophisticated grasses, then shrubs take over, followed by real trees.
VW is considered a strong brand throughout Europe. The Golf in Europe is like the Camry here, everyone has one.
The Japanese brands are not particularly respected (I am not sure why) and tend to be considered as taxis.
American brands (Cadillac, Chrysler, Chevrolet, Dodge) are loved as quirky but unreliable interest-cars.
Ford is thought to be European (Ford Europe has a very distinctive line from Ford USA).
I out that entire post, you picked out one thing and completely danced around all of the other facts.
BTW, your link doesn't work
I just used the link. Everything works here in LexusLand. You need to ditch that VW modem, dude.
DrFill
His link works fine.
TM
TM
I always knew that a current model E Class Diesel is faster 0-60 than the gas equipped E Class, I just didn't know that it could legitimately be called an investment with a positive return.
Now if MB would just add a cooler to the trans or whatever tech fix it takes, so you could get a Fourmtatic they could double their sales. Double sales? I suspect but have no data that the AWD buyer and the Diesel buyer share some of the same mental space. In other words they will pay up for perceived ruggedness, the independence that 800 miles of range implies, all weather, go anywhere capability, etc. etc. Even if like SUV owners they spend most of their time going to the Natick mall.
Please stop taking the Doc's prescriptions. DO you think the most profitable car company would waste money investing in this "disaster"?
At last check, Toyota and Nissans are not luxury cars. Lexus is hopelessly lost in Asia compared to Audi.
Get a little closer to your Lemans history. Honda was cheating my friend.
Fiat is dying, and Ferrari is going with it? Hardly and Fiat isn't going anywhere. They've been talking about this for 3 decades. They just got rich off of GM's bank account, duh.
next.
Dr Fill- do the stats on that website you linked show only sold or is it sold and leased?
If it is only sold it is interesting to see how high BMW 3 series is there. Makes me question the perception that BMW is relying on leases for all there unit movement.