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how 'bout a total lack of confidence!... or "just in case" it crashes!
Actually, THIS might be a little more realistic...
Here's the article:
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TagMan
Old 740s can be real nightmares. An '01 will probably be more reliable than an '02 745i because you won't have to deal with first generation iDrive, but the 7 is still likely to be much more troublesome than a 5 or 3. Of the choices you list, an E is probably your best bet. The "German cars out of warranty" rule still applies though.
My suggestion would be an LS430. My '01 is still going strong, the dealer says it'll do 200K no problem. The LS430's NAV is also FAR ahead of anything BMW or MB had at the time.
TagMan
OR, maybe this is just one of the few times when a lease is the way to go until you generate more cash flow.
Thats a pretty broad statement. Some older ones are still pretty fresh looking, like the first X5, or the XC90. On the other hand, the original RX300 and ML320 look pretty dated. CPO or not, I wouldn't pick a Land Rover if reliability is at all important.
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TagMan
From those of you who have owned an LS430, what did you think of them from a drivers perspective? Are there any specific things about the 740 that I should look for (I ruled out the 750 because of the V12). If I can get a 3 year warranty, would that push any of you one way or the other?
I like the lines of older BMWs, but that is secondary to a ride comfort and amenities.
But since you mention that you don't mind a little maintenance... a used BMW or Mercedes should then most certainly be considered. They may not end up requiring any more maintenance than the Lexus, but the statistics say that they might. But again, you seem comfortable with that possibility.
Based upon your request for comfort, I would also recommend that you give consideration to some of the longer wheelbase vehicles... therefore giving a higher priority to the S-Class than the E-Class, for example.
TagMan
Are there other sedans I should consider including the LS430?
Doesn't it seem that at this point that you should look and compare some used BMW 7-Series, Lexus LS430, and Mercedes S-Class vehicles? That's how I see it.
Time to compare the comfort and ride and see which provides what you want.
Afterall, you'll know what you like best, no matter what any of us might suggest.
Good luck and keep us posted.
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It's always refreshing to see these super clean lines. Not one gimmick stroke to be had.
Groovy man.
DrFill
Copyrightatty is looking for reasonable and objective feedback here.
Your personal bias against Audi does nothing to assist someone looking for objective help.
Heck, I even endorsed the LS430 as a good choice. Now, THAT's being objective, my friend, as you all know how I personally feel about that car.
Sorry, but it's one thing to kid around with each other, but when a new poster looks to us regular posters for advice, I think we owe it to him/her to step to the plate.
IMHO.
TagMan
I think problems that could show up on a 740 are likely to be mechanical, vs. electrical for an S430. The issue is mechanical problems can leave you stranded, where as electrical problems are (usually) less serious. I'm not a big fan of those old A8s, they're likely to have the worst reliability of all, and the ride is almost as marshmallowy as the LS430. If it doesn't handle like a proper German car, why put up with the baggage that goes along with that? If AWD is important, a 4Matic S-class is a better choice.
The LS430 sounds like just what you are looking for. Plenty of space, very quiet and comfortable, easy to use NAV, and its an excellent long distance cruiser, that's basically what its made for. My LS is my daily driver, but for long trips or taking friends anywhere, its the car for the job. Take it to any shop every 5,000 miles for an oil, filter, and lube, and it will last forever.
The LS430's electronics also aren't really dated like S and 7, 2007 Lexus cars still use basically the same NAV system. You can buy a 2007 NAV DVD from a Lexus dealer for $150 or so.
As for an Infiniti, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to take a look at an '02 or '03 Q45, if you can get past the funky styling and the weird dash, they are more fun to drive and likely to be just as reliable as an LS430. If status is completely unimportant, you could always go the Avalon route...
Pinning mechanical, stranding, issues on some of the cars is a little over the top... a well-maintained S-Class in good shape, will have already, in fact, proved it's merit if it has a clean record... as opposed to any car with a bad track record, that seems more prone to problems.
That brings up the point I wanted to make about checking the car's history. I urge copyrightatty to check a car's service and maintenance history before purchasing it. If the car has reasonable miles, and has been well-cared for with little service problems, then that car is more likely to be a good one. Many problems reveal themselves in the earlier months and years of ownership, especially chronic ones.
Anyway, your affection of the LS430 is well-known, and the LS430 is no doubt a good choice, even I agree, but not the only good choice... and I encourage copyrightatty to take the time to look carefully and compare the different vehicles, and check their service history.
I'm sure a good vehicle can be found, whether it's a BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes Benz.
TagMan
That brings up the point I wanted to make about checking the car's history. I urge copyrightatty to check a car's service and maintenance history before purchasing it. If the car has reasonable miles, and has been well-cared for with little service problems, then that car is more likely to be a good one. Many problems reveal themselves in the earlier months and years of ownership, especially chronic ones.
Stranding issue aside, I've heard some bad stories about older 7s, with brutal repair bills. There's no chance I'd buy a 740 without some sort of warranty on it. With the S-class you generally don't hear much about the engine falling apart, its usually something to do with the COMAND system or other electrical problems.
Making sure you're getting a well maintained and properly documented used car is critical with any brand of car, including Lexus. Another good idea with 3rd party used dealerships is to borrow the car and take it to a company dealership to have it checked out.
Another good idea with 3rd party used dealerships is to borrow the car and take it to a company dealership to have it checked out.
Yes, that is another good idea, and it would apply to a private sale also... which can sometimes have the added benefit of a better price.
TagMan
Thanks for the post Tagman.
But no thanks.
I just visited a group of my friends at a farm this weekend and one of them told me that his 2001 Prius needed a new $5K component (no labor)--his car only had only 99700 miles on it. Great timing on his part.
BUT in my case I like keeping my cars for a very very long time and the last thing I need are such complex and unnecssary hybrid headaches. Why use aspirin and pay for such repairs when instead I could get a durable diesel.
I mean can you imagine the potential repairs needed for a Porshce hybrid out of warranty. I certainly dread the thought.
From those of you who have owned an LS430, what did you think of them from a drivers perspective?
SUVs are out and I don't need to wait for cash flow. I just don't like to sink money into new cars and stick as much as possible into investments. Leases are out as I can't depreciate them for taxes the same way as a cash purchase for a business use only car. I have thought about it though.
You're above words are music to my ears. Who cares about what others think regarding status. It's your car and nobody elses. You hate the idea of owning a LS because you hate the idea of driving one (who gives a damned if it is reliable)? I like your logic.
Good luck with your search. At least you've established some sensible criteria for your next auto.
I've bought many German cars (always new)and kept them beyond the warranty date. And so far I have no complaints. But my experience may not be relevant since none of my cars were high end cars.
As for durable diesel, I doubt a high pressure turbo charger on a modern diesel can last 100k miles with significant margin of confidence. Once the turbo start to leak oil around the turbo bearing (common occurence), the car will smoke (it may still pass emission tests, but the look and smell will be terrible). If not fixed quickly, the turbo charger then dies . . . leaving the car delivering only 100hp or less.
Were you reading somebody else's posts? I don't remember reading anything like that. Perhaps you hate the idea of driving an LS dewey, but we're all trying to be objective in our recommendations here.
And, BTW, I wouldn't compare a Prius to a Porsche any more than I would compare a Prius to a BMW.
TagMan
You're welcome. Please let us know how you make out. The atmosphere around here is what has kept me posting for such a long time. While the diesel v. hybrid and Japan v. Germany fights do occasionally drag on a bit long, the posters around here are all very knowledgeable and passionate about cars, which usually makes for entertaining reading.
You may want to check out the individual 7, S, and LS boards (if you haven't already) and talk to the posters there, those folks are usually all owners and can let you know of specific issues to look out for when purchasing.
1. Some of the usually overlooked models, such as the Q45, may prove a good used value just because there isn't a big demand for them.
2. By the time you are done with it, it will be about a decade old, so long-term reliability is critical. These are cheap used for a reason: they are expensive to maintain and repair.
3. By the time a car is a decade old, most interior bits and pieces, like leather, lining, gaskets, etc., will be quite worn by then. At the rate things are going, the exterior style will also be quite passe, unlike the luxury cars of old.
4. Any chance you can use mileage method to do the depreciation? The reason why I ask is that, between the lines it seems to me that you are trying to fit a prestige car inside the taxcode depreciation limit. Given the current market condition, new cars are actually selling a lot less than their MSRP's one way or another. If you and your accountant can not figure out a way to structure a lease that reflect the real lease cost instead of "market value" based on cash purchase prices, mileage method may just be the way to go, especially if the long trips that you mentioned do run up a lot of miles. It also has the advantage that you may not need to make the car corporate property at all.
Counselor, your choice is abundantly clear. You should pick up a new or one year old Mercury Grand Marquis. It meets all the above criteria better than an old 7 Series or S Class ever will and it has been product-tested by Whitey Bulger!
2. I understand that long term reliability means maintainence. What I am looking for are signs that a model will need a rebuilt engine or new transmission vs. replacement electronics, suspension items, and rubber parts.
3. Yep. It would be nice if styles held up the way they used to.
4. I have other tax considerations, so can go up in cash price but can't do a lease.
It was driven more than the other car we had and deducting the business miles of the TC proved to be just fine.
When I was 61 I bought my present TC. It has 134k and the only major work was replacing the differential gears @97k.
I covet an 04 Jag XJ8L, but the TC is still a pleasure to me. In summary, buy whatever "blows your dress up".
I'd advise against one, a Town Car makes you look like a limo driver. A Grand Marquis makes you look like you were on the way to the retirement community and got lost. As for your passengers, Town Cars are passable in the back, but for no more than an hour or two. They are no match for an LS or S-class in terms of rear seat comfort. The Vic\GM rocks back and forth like a kayak, the ride quality is absolutely atrocious. It drives like what it is, a product of the '70s.
And as if that weren't enough, the 4.6L V8 makes less horsepower than some Honda and Subie 4-cylinders. Some harbor a strange affection for panther Fords, I just don't get it. The panther platform should be shot, buried, excavated, shot again, and then reburied.
A 500\whatever they called the Mercury would be a far better choice.
The pre-pugnose Q "Q41" is arguably the better car, it looks like a slightly sleeker LS400, and the dash is normal. '00s are only maybe $10k and they are unstoppable, unfortunately finding one with less than 140K miles on it can be a bit tough.
The old Acura RL is also unstoppable, and also has brutal depreciation.
Some harbor a strange affection for panther Fords, I just don't get it.
Price, space, conservative looks, the American buy. You'd have a hard time buying a foreign-made sedan at that size for double the price. The limo people really have no alternative. It seems to serve them well and I think they are concerned about its demise.
Fair and square maybe I kind of read too much into Copyrightatty's criteria.
BUT when a person provides the following :
1) A list of only highly driveable cars
2) No major concerns about reliability
Would you yourself not conclude that a LS430 should be scratched from the list since it is more renowned for its reliability than its driveability? Well the fact the Copyrightatty actually considered a Town Car definitely does prove that my conclusion was wrong.
Such a comparison would be the ultimate sin among all sins.
But what I am saying is that I would have more sleepless nights about a out of warranty car with a VW designed hybrid system in a Porsche than Toyota's HSD. I mean you do know the notorious reputation of VW with electronics and electricals?
You mean the so-called new and improved Taurus.
Changing the name from Golf to Rabbit appears to have worked with VW. Apparently a name is worth more than what we may think.
Imagine if BMW called its new 1 Series a Nitro?
The study finds that 50 percent of new-vehicle shoppers are considering a hybrid—down from 57 percent in the 2006 study. While a general decline can be observed across all age groups, in particular younger vehicle shoppers, those 16 to 25 years old, appear less interested in the powertrain technology, with 60 percent considering a hybrid in 2007, down from 73 percent in 2006.
The Fortunes of Diesels Increases
The study also finds that consumer consideration for purchasing clean diesel vehicles, which were newly introduced to the market in 2007, is at 23 percent. In 2006, only 12 percent of shoppers considered purchasing diesel vehicles.
WOW, that is over a 100 percent increase for diesels. Not bad at all.
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Ominously Toyota is decreasing the base price of its hybrid Toyota Camry by $ 1K. That is not a good sign especially for such a new model. Apparenty the Camry hybrid is beginnig to resemble another overweight turky called the Honda hybrid Accord.
Some reputations are old history, and some are current. Some are overstated.
Are you saying that VW's electrical issues are still current?
TagMan
TagMan
Poor VW electrical ratings from Consumer Report are consistent feature year by year for the last few decades including now.
TM
Oops, I accidentally walked out of the closet.
Dewey, I posted that last week. Where were you ?
I was too busy reading my latest CR magazine.
Gosh, sometimes I realize just how cool all this really is. :shades:
TagMan
To reduce its carbon footprint and improve the fuel-economy of its some of its vehicles, Porsche is developing new hybrid technology with sister brand Volkswagen that’ll be available as an option on its next-gen Cayenne SUV and Panamera four-door coupe. The new Cayenne is scheduled for release in 2010 and should achieve a fuel consumption figure of just 26.8mpg (8.9L/100km). By contrast, the current version gets by with a fuel economy figure of only 18.2mpg (12.9L/100km).
The information was revealed by Porsche’s director of hybrid development Michael Leiters in an interview with Automobilwoche. The next Cayenne is expected to be smaller than the current model, featuring shorter overhangs and will lose any pretensions of being a genuine off-road vehicle.
Development work for the new Cayenne is being fast-tracked by execs at Porsche, including CEO Wendelin Wiedeking who’s worried about worsening demand for thirsty SUVs and rising oil prices.
Being a Porsche, I can't help but wonder about its HP.
Well, look at this... here's more info on the situation...
As Porsche gets ready to launch a gasoline-electric hybrid system in the 2009 Cayenne SUV and the upcoming Porsche Panamera, Volkswagen will go ahead and introduce a gasoline-electric hybrid Touareg in 2008.
According to German Magazine AutoBild, Porsche is said to be working on a hybrid system that features a 50 horsepower electric engine in conjunction with a 3.6 liter V8 engine that produces 280 horsepower.
The 2008 Volkwagen Touareg will be the first to get this engine followed by the 2009 Porsche Cayenne. The engine is being built in partnership with Bosch and is expected to have a fuel-economy of 30mpg.
Wonder why the VW version gets 30mpg (probably just rounded it off)?
Doesn't sound all that powerful... probably slow, considering those vehicles are quite heavy.
TagMan
Mercedes-Benz is preparing to display several new frugal drivetrain concepts at September’s Frankfurt Motor Show, the latest being a new ‘DiesOtto’ engine that will be revealed for the first time later this month. The new engine features engine concepts that characterize both diesel and petrol motors, and promises to be as clean as petrol engines but as efficient as diesels.
The technology is similar to Volkswagen’s recently announced Gasoline Compression Ignition system, which works by using spark plugs during start-up and hard acceleration, while relying on sparkless compression ignition, like a diesel, during low load situations.
In an interview with Automotive News, a Mercedes official explained that VW’s technology is still several years away because it requires a special synthetic fuel that’s still in development, while the Mercedes will run on regular petrol.
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The fact that it runs on normal gasoline is the big plus here.
TagMan
The only difference is this an award-winning, 60k+ units a year selling turkey. This turkey goes down easy, and doesn't come up rough!
Makes me want to count my blessings, and give Thanks to 'Yota for getting the job done, again.
This turkey will fly. :surprise:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=121755?tid=edmund- - s.il.home.photopanel..2.*
DrFill
30% of the evaluation was based upon price... that's enough to distort who is really best in ANY comaparison... as often happens to BMW.
And... here's a direct quote from the Edmunds article.
And while most hybrids also offer high-quality trim levels, this Camry is a letdown — it looks good at first but loses its luster.
It's going to lose even more luster in the '08. Here's why...
The '08 Camry Hybrid will be $1000 cheaper in price, but will lose a bunch of desireable equipment, including alloy wheels to be replaced by steel wheels (ugh), and no more electrochromic mirror with compass and Homelink, no more JBL audio system, no more leather steering wheel and no more leather shift knob.
In other words, Toyota has taken away thousands of dollars of equipment to reduce the price by only $1000. Hybrid prices supposed to decline? Bull! I call that a very sneaky price hike.
Thanks, Toyota! :sick:
TagMan