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I was letting the link "self-park" itself. It got stuck, so I had the painstackingly task of doing it my self cuz the arrows didn't lineup.
And your point with this link being.........
TagMan
DrFill
Porsche may make a lot of money per car, but how much total profit is there? It's an order of magnitude too small compared to VW's cash burn rate.
Of course it would, the most per-car profitable company would see its production line stopped with cars 80% unfinished if VW is no longer there to do the remaining 80% of the car.
At last check, Toyota and Nissans are not luxury cars. Lexus is hopelessly lost in Asia compared to Audi.
You need to check harder on the reality in Asia, Toyota makes luxury cars that are far more expensive than even the most expensive Audi-branded car. Most Audis sold in Asia compete against the likes of Camry . . . how else would you describe A6 1.8L?? Lexus is just getting started in Asia, and it's undergoing phenomenal growth.
Get a little closer to your Lemans history. Honda was cheating my friend.
What cheating? Honda stuck to the letters of the rules, and built the most powerful car in the race. Then they changed the rules. Audi diesels are winning because they too are exploiting what's allowed in the rules. The difference between the two situation is that, whereas the rules were relatively open lesse faire back then, nowadays the engine size rules actively bias in favor of diesels, in a dramatic fashion.
They just got rich off of GM's bank account, duh.
And how long will that $4b cash injection last for a car company that loses money every quarter?
You're really reaching with that one, brightness. If Audi rebodied the Passat and changed the interior and equipment levels, then yes, it would be in the same class as the ES350. Audi doesn't do that. The A6's platform and powertrain are both bespoke to Audi. Lexus has a similar car, its called the GS.
Incorrect. The Passat rides on a stretched version of the Jetta\Golf platform. The A3, TT, and Q7 are VW based, the A4 and A6 are not. Drive wheels aside, the ES is an entry-lux car that tops out around $40K. The A6 is a mid-lux performance sedan that will reach all the way up to $100K. Its an entirely different category.
At the top of the luxury performance sedans board, you'll find 5, E, A6 from Germany, GS, RL, M from Japan, STS from the USA, and S80 from Sweden. 5, E, GS, M, and STS are RWD based, A6, RL, and S80 are FWD based. That's the mid-lux category. The ES is not in it.
Quote "On the contrary, today the 40-year-old auto worker often fears that he might lose his job at the car plant in the southern German town of Sindelfingen. He is convinced that on the long run German companies will not be able to compete with the emerging automobile industry in Asia."
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The pricing argument is also arbitrary. If I strapped a supercharger onto the ES, and charge $200k for the car, would it suddenly make the ES ultra luxury? If you want to talk about the top end of A6 at near $100k, let's not forget to talk about the bottom end of A6, which is powered by a miniscule 1.8L engine. It's like, sure there is $50k Shelby Mustang and $100k Panoz Esperante both running on Ford Mustang gears and platforms; that doesn't mean however, that every $18k Mustang is a high end luxury sportscar.
The "job for life" has gone the way of the dodo. Welcome to the 21st century.
The M3, RS4, and C63 are still technically "entry-lux" cars. So is the IS-F. A supercharged, $200K ES would still be entry-lux, and a very bad value.
In this market, the A6 starts at $42K. The M also starts at $42, the 5 and GS start at $44. The ES starts at $33K, which is firmly in entry-lux territory, right there with the TL, A4, 3 series, and G35.
How little or much the A6 has in common with a VW really doesn't matter. The M uses the same platform as the 350Z, while the S80 is based on Euro Ford minivan architecture. They're still all 190" or so (mid) $40K and up (lux) cars. The ES, again, is not.
It's like, sure there is $50k Shelby Mustang and $100k Panoz Esperante both running on Ford Mustang gears and platforms; that doesn't mean however, that every $18k Mustang is a high end luxury sportscar.
That doesn't make sense, or have anything to do with luxury sedans. The Shelby Mustang is a Mustang GT with a supercharger on it. The Esperante is like a Noble or TVR. They aren't luxury cars.
Putting cars in categories based on MSRP can certainly be misleading. Using the A6 as an example, in the week-end local paper a new A6 with a MSRP of $46,000. was sale priced at $36,000. That is a discount of around 22%! I don't think you will see an ES discounted that heavily.
Incidentally, there was also an ad for a Q7 for around $38M. It might have been a demo, not sure. MSRP was $48M. That is sort of a tempting deal.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
C&D would disagree with you on that.
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/12686/2007-mercedes-benz-e320-bluetec-verd- ict-page2.html
DrFill
Just as the Touareg has a Porsche counterpart in the Cayenne, Porsche is thinking about their own version of the Q5. Hmmmm...
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Brightness,
methinks you are wrong..
Bristol,
your conclusion about BMW 3 series sales is correct based on those figures you had provided us. In fact only 33 percent of BMW 3 series are leased.
Percentage of BMW3 Series sold to consumers during June: 67 %
Percentage of BMW3 Series leased during June: 33%
Percentage of BMW3 Series sold to consumers Year to Date June: 67 %
Percentage of BMW3 Series leased year to date June: 33%
My calculations are based on the figures below. Please refer to links for further information:
2007 3 Series Volumes (Leased and Sold)
June Year to date 73,001 June Month 12,738
2007 3 Series Units Sold
June Year to date 49,036 June Month 8,568
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Yes, that is true, but the point is that he thinks the same of German auto industry. He works for MB making the E's.
Definitely his personal fears of having his overpaid job displaced are entangled with his fears of MB's future.
Just as the Touareg has a Porsche counterpart in the Cayenne, Porsche is thinking about their own version of the Q5. Hmmmm...
Thank you. A smaller Porsche SUV? Certainly sounds interesting. Where did you get that information?
TagMan
The Mercedes EBIT margin of 9.6 percent easily surpassed its minimum 7 percent target for 2007. Analysts polled by Reuters had expected Mercedes EBIT of 1.01 billion euros.
It said it aimed to have a 10 percent return on sales at Mercedes by 2010 at the latest.
TagMan
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TagMan
Furthermore, it talks about MB using temp workers to reduce labor costs. Maybe this has something to do with quality control issues...
Furthermore, it talks about MB using temp workers to reduce labor costs. Maybe this has something to do with quality control issues...
Ja, ja, ja frightening stuff indeed.
Temp workers (yikes clear the halls here comes those quality dilluting temps) and a high end luxury company like MB that does not have enough fuel sipping cars that can compete with the likes of Honda Fits (the horrors of horrors--- can you imagine that)
Hopefully the new SL will have the mileage of a Prius and then MB's fortunes will change. :P
A sensible Honda CRV diesel with a two seater Porsche (non hybrid ofcourse) sounds far more interesting to me. :shades:
TM
I am really looking forward to the diesel Accord. I want to test drive it the first day it makes it to the dealer's lot.
TM
We seem to be alike in our taste for cars. LA and Toronto are certainly not far apart in terms of automotive tastes.
Rx for VW USA
TagMan
I'm glad you posted that, dewey. For some reason there are still folks out here that believe Porsche is wholly separate and unrelated to VW/Audi.
:P
Designman,
thank you I certainly will do so. As you know this site is dedicated to "unrestrained automobile conversationalists" like myself and I do have some new "Bwahahaha " to give you about Tesla:
Forget the major automakers. The future disruptive automotive business model belongs to Silicon Valley's Tesla. Sounds like this company is going to become BIG. If not as an automker at least as a major supplier for its lithium ion energy storage devices.
How refreshing it would be if the newest technological force in the automotive industry is from Silicon Valley, USA instead of Stuttgart , Ingolstadt, Tokyo, Detroit, Wolfsburg , Nagoya and Munich .
Businessweek
The electric "premium" here is much too gigantic, IMO, in comparison to the gas-powered version.
The company's value may be more like what you were indicating... not the car itself, but the actual battery system.
TagMan
$20K is a hefty amount. But time is on Tesla side since lithium ion batteries are dropping in cost by 8 percent. In over five years the cost will be 50 percent less and will keep on declining.
As automakers show anxiety about lithium ion batteries Tesla is taking the bull by its horns and building up a auto company based on lithium ion batteries. Kudos for Tesla.
Is this folly on the part of the Google kids, or is there something really promising, or is it just a hobby on a whim? I don't know but I have to scratch my head.
In any event, the car was supposed to be out in June originally, now it's pushed back to October and Toyota has also pushed back its plans for LI batteries.
Tagman, I think the promise of 130 mpg (equivalent), the convenience of plugging in at home, the performance and the simplicity of the mechanical technology far outweighs anything else here, regardless of the small size and hefty price of the first round of production cars. Also its price doesn't seem too out of line with the performance cars. Correct me if I am wrong.
I know you don't get something for nothing but the benefit would seem to shift significantly toward the consumer and that has to be somewhat of a threat to those in the industry who stand to lose something in the process. Tesla seems to bring some future shock to the table. Yes Dewey, very exciting. Love it!
I 100% agree with that.
Fortunately some of our wealthy California idealists and venture investors have made this endeavor possible. Also, the deep-pocket celebs and CEOs are going to further help by buying the overpriced car itself.
Sounds like their brilliant scientists may be ahead of many others in the field... and are highly-motivated with the reward of their stock options... as the company should go public next year.
It's a great story that we'll all continue to follow. I'm sure cheering for them.
TagMan
Well, I don't think there's a right or wrong here. Consider, though, that kind of argument could always have been made for the Elise and Exige. Afterall, at $40K - $50K, they even out-perform many other high-performance cars. So, what should their price be?
That's why, for the average buyer, I still think the Elise or Exige is a better purchase than what is essentially the same car with an electric powertrain.
Of course I agree with the idea of an electric powertrain, but I would never recommend to anyone that they pay a $50,000 premium to get it. Heck, it's hard to justify the hybrid premium on just regular production cars, let alone something of this magnitude.
The price of the Tesla is out of line for two reasons. It's comparable gas-powered car is half the price, and the LI technology it employs is still very high at $20K... that means that the exclusivity/limited production and the blitz factors are the only real reasons to justify the price.
What happens in the future, when the price comes down? Or a future Japanese car maker, like Honda, makes a really cool hybrid? Afterall, Honda has in fact announced plans for a dedicated hybrid model that is supposed to be a cool car. Figure it sells for $25K - $30K. That's a gigantic difference. Or that new Toyota FT-HS hybrid sports car that's coming out soon? And beyond that, Toyota has just commenced testing plug-in EVs in Japan.
Anyway, lots to think about here. But I am in support of the Tesla and the company's technology, and I want to be clear about that.
BTW, kind of reminds me when I paid a freakin' fortune many years ago for one of the very first plasma TVs... a ridiculous sum... did I pay too much? Not on the day I bought it...LOL... but it wasn't all too long before I could have had 7 of 'em for the same price! Not exactly the same situation, but there are similarities.
TagMan
:shades:
Hey, you were going to email me - maybe everything's okay now, but feel free to do so anytime.
Hey, D-man, I'm jealous... you can email me anytime, too! LOL.
TagMan
The first VW was designed by Porsche and now Porsche is practically in control of VW.
But that mere 20 percent (tranny + engine) is worth 80 percent of a Porsche. The Audi R8 may introduce some interesting sibling rivalry with Porsche.
The biggest fear among the Big Automakers is the potential litigation costs involved with malfunctioning lithium ion batteries. Sony had their own crises with lithium ion batteries and are still paying compensation and litigation costs as a result.
Now the Tesla has 6,831 laptop battery cells. Just imagine the potential headaches if something goes wrong? The most those Silicon Valley entrepreneurs can lose is their capital invested in a limited liability company called Tesla. All those potential multi-billion dollar battery legal suits against Tesla would be completely pointless. But if you are a multi-billion dollar company like Toyota or GM then those legal suits really do mean something.
I would hope that the Tesla is a little less bug-riddled than those early plasmas, though. I remember when airports first began switching to plasma, it wasn't long before half the screens had permanent image burn-in, and the other half had stopped working.
With any new technology there's always a maturing process that goes along with massive decreases in price. I bought one of the first digital cameras for several hundred dollars, it was a less than 1-megapixel Sony Mavica that used a floppy disk drive! It could take a maximum of around 12 pictures per disk, and the image quality was worse than a $10 Kodak disposable. My Nikon D200 is a similar size, but the quality is a bit better
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Wish things automotive could be declining in price as quickly as electronics and computers have been for the last four decades.
For what it's worth, the base-MSRP argument has serveral flaws in it:
1. Cars are not sold at MSRP. There are huge discounts available on A6's;
2. Most European cars sold in the US are lease sales. A6 lease cost is not far from that of ES at all.
3. In markets where A6 sales are significant, like in Europe and China, A6 does in fact compete against cars like Honda Accord and Toyota Camry! An A6 1.8L is just a plain midsize sedan. Obviously the A6 is not specificly engineered for the US market, where A6 sales are miniscule compared to A6 sales in Europe, South America and China. For example, Audi moves less than 1000 A6 a month in the US, whereas in China, despite its being a much smaller car market than the US, Audi moves 5000 A6's a month! With all those 1.8L models. Guess for which market is the car engineered?
PS. In case you are wondering how come A6 competes against Accord and Camry in those emerging markets; what happened to the VW brand? The answer is that VW brand in those markets (like China) sells cars like Santana, a quater-century old design that was launched in 1981 in West Europe and North America, and little changed. Audi is the brand that brings modern cars that can compete against Accord's and Camry's there. VW sales numbers are good there because their Santana's are like Crown Vics in this country, cheap for its size, and practically no R&D cost left to amortize . . . and yes, a lot of taxi fleet sales.
I had to have the first 50" high definition, of course. Tons of money... but to this day, thankfully, it hasn't lost a single pixel... unlike many others of that first generation.
Wish things automotive could be declining in price as quickly as electronics and computers have been for the last four decades.
No kidding! The price of battery technology in the hybrids doesn't seem to be going down as promised... if anything, it looks like it might even go up!
Another plus for diesels.
TagMan
Battery energy density has been increasing much quicker than diesel fuel or diesel engines.
I guess I wasn't clear. It wasn't the Q5 I was asking about. I thought that you had also mentioned an upcoming smaller Porsche SUV. THAT's the one I was wondering about.
TagMan