Luxury Lounge

tagman

As the world seeks to get greener BMW will need Honda more than Honda needs BMW.

And I continue to disagree, Dewey. BMW is perfectly capable of being green. IMO, they produce some of the best engines in the world. That engine knowledge will be utilized to become green, I have little doubt.

In fact, don't be surprised if BMW engineers leapfrog everyone else at some point in time and come up with an amazing fuel-efficient green engine.

Don't sell BMW short!

TagMan

tagman

Hyundai is acting like the last 20 years didn't happen, and they are immune to history, brand image, and poor market strategy.

Hyundai has done in six years what it took the rest to do in decades. You continue to underestimate the brilliance and success of Hyundai.

IMO, Hyundai is on a roll and will continue to get even better and more successful.

Knock 'em all you want... but Toyota better watch its back. Hyundai is lurking in their backyard. Even consumer surveys are giving Hyundai high marks, and that's where Toyota has lost their exclusivity, as they now have to share high marks with Hyundai, Honda, and others.

TagMan

designman

In fact, don't be surprised if BMW engineers leapfrog everyone else at some point in time and come up with an amazing fuel-efficient green engine.

Uhh... leapfrog? Kermit would disagree with you. For heaven's sake, it's not easy being green.

tagman

VW is now in a position of making the U.S. market work or leave it altogether. I believe they can pull it together, but it will not be easy.

They will need serious improvements in quality, reliability, customer service, and actual product line.

Their diesels and the upcoming Tiguan (bad name, of course) will help... but they will need more.

TagMan

tagman

Uhh... leapfrog? Kermit would disagree with you. For heaven's sake, it's not easy being green.

No, it's definately not easy... but consider who employs some of the world's best engine experts? Certainly BMW has their share... and has just as much potential for success as anyone else... even Honda, IMO.

BMW is a company I firmly believe in.

TagMan

drfill

Back that horse all you want, but people said the same things about Nissan 10-15 years ago, until they crashed, trying to keep up with someone.

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't call selling 9 vehicles, without breaking 500k anually, some success story. Core models sales are falling, and falling fast (Elantra, Sonata).

Hyundai has talent. Now it's time to show smarts. 3 rules to live by.

1. Know your market.

2. Serve your market.

3. Toyota is not your market.

Call me in 5 years, and show me what you've learned (That Nissan and VW didn't).

Take something for this....you know....mentalpause you're going through, and get back to basics. They're starting to lose their market, and they don't even know it. :sick:

DrFill

brightness04

The fundamental problem that VW faces is the fact that its products are on the road at all. Back in the mid-90's, it was a lot easier to believe the story that the industry average had improved so much that all imports were good enough if not equally good . . . people had forgotten just how bad VW's had been. VW had been absent from most consumer purchase list for a decade at that time. The resurgence of VW after that point proved that there had been a logical reason for the brand to nearly vanish from these shores a decade ealier.

tagman

Doc, success is like using a yo-yo while going up a mountain. The stock market reflects that activity perfectly. Ups and downs, within an overall upward direction. That is Hyundai as well.

Sorry, Doc, I think Hyundai has done an amazing thing that is otherwise near impossible to accomplish... they're not about to crash. Bump in the road? Maybe... but that's it.

Five years from now, Hyundai will be bigger and better... not worse off.

Consider this as well...hyundai-and-kia-open-58-million-green-research-center

TagMan

designman

Oh I agree with you and actually think it is easy from the engineering standpoint. The problem is when it interferes with the positioning of the products. Being green and the ultimate driving machine are like oil and water. That's what they must come to terms with, especially in the case of Porsche which will probably have to expand their platforms to keep up with green initiatives. I suppose we are evolving to a point where performance cars will be banished to tracks only, at which point we will be forced to concede that, on public roads, there is a subsititute.

:sick:

It's not easy being green

tagman

Thanks for the video... LOL.

When I think about it... being green is now a "cool" thing, and its time is upon us. A true green vehicle with a BMW or Porsche badge would be a welcome alternative to the very green Prius or even that phony green car, the Lexus LS600hL, that's for sure.

It's all going to come full circle... and it's going to be terrific. I am a total optimist.

A green BMW or Porsche?... ahhhh... sounds terrific!

It expands the product line? That's OK!!!

TagMan

drfill

What I'm sayin' is they are at a crossroads. They need to make a philosophical decision, and the road they choose will shape the next 10-15 years for them.

Do they expand, and use a couple of quality awards as reason to take on all comers, and grow into $35-40k vehicles, and attack stalwarts Lexus and BMW in their marketing.

Or do they slow down. Work their customer base. Tighten up their marketing, and focus on what they do well. Build a successful line first. Get the market behind them, then look to add streams of income and conquest buyers. Come up with a ten-year plan.

I see a company without a plan. When you keep adding vehicles, but sales don't increase, you're doing something wrong.

Talent isn't enough.

DrFill

houdini1

There is nothing wrong with the LS600hl and it is indeed a very green car compared to the ponies that it runs with. You need to realize that, for the most part, your argument is not with Lexus, but drfill. Think about it.

I agree with you about Hyundai. It is a terrific company. I am anxiously awaiting the Genesis.

tagman

There is nothing wrong with the LS600hl...

houdini - It isn't about right or wrong. I have the same perspective on the LS600hL now as I did before. To me, it does not represent a green car in the true spirit.

I 100% agree with the NY Times article that explains this better than I can.

I see the LS600hL more as a contradiction of terms than as a true green car.

I do not wish to get into an argument over the LS600hL, however. I've expressed my perspective on this car at length in the past. I personally believe that the LS460(L) represents a smarter purchase decision.

Having to compare the LS600hL to some other luxury gas hog doesn't really make it all that green.

On the other hand, my wife's Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas is rated 27 mpg on the highway, due primarily to the extensive aluminum bodywork. Is it green, too?

All IMHO.

TagMan

brightness04

No, the Vaden Plas is not even close. The EPA 2008 testing method lists Vaden Plas at 19mpg combined . . . compared to 21mpg combined for LS600hL.

Travelling in the laps of luxury is at least as legit a reason as performance driving . . . in fact, performance driving probably returns fuel mileage far worse EPA testing, unlike just tooling around in the laps of luxury. If the idea that while capable of delivering good performance and theoretically at a different time if driven gently could also deliver okay mileage qualifies a car as "green," then deliver superior mileage while delivering the same luxury experience certainly qualifies as green. LS600hL delivers the V12 ride exerience (sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio) while achieve nearly double the gas mileage of its regular V12 competitors . . . that's a bigger fuel saving than any other hybrid or diesel car (over their respective gasoline competitors) currently on the market.

OTOH, if one considers LS600hL non-green because the goal of getting from point A to point B could be achieved in a Prius burning much less fuel, then there's no hope for a high performance green car by BMW, or by anyone else . . . because a lower performance fuel mizer could always get from point A to point B on less fuel consumption.

lexusguy

Back that horse all you want, but people said the same things about Nissan 10-15 years ago, until they crashed, trying to keep up with someone.

I really don't see the parallels between where Hyundai is now and '90s era Nissan, which had a "don't fire anyone, it's not nice" culture. In the '90s Honda and Toyota dominated the Japanese motor industry while Nissan and Mazda made bad, boring clones that almost killed both of them. It's a different market now. Mazda has found a comfortable niche for themselves, while Nissan is still experimenting. Their current lineup is kind of all over the map.

It wasn't too long ago that anything from Korea was considered cheap junk, (just as Japanese products were considered to be many years before that). Now just as Canon and Nikkor optics command just as much respect as anything by Carl Zeiss, Schneider Kreuznach or Leica, brands like Samsung and Hyundai are changing the perception that S. Korea isn't as good as Japan. Samsung by going directly after Sony, and Hyundai by going after Toyota.

drfill

I really don't see the parallels between where Hyundai is now and '90s era Nissan, which had a "don't fire anyone, it's not nice" culture. In the '90s Honda and Toyota dominated the Japanese motor industry while Nissan and Mazda made bad, boring clones that almost killed both of them. It's a different market now. Mazda has found a comfortable niche for themselves, while Nissan is still experimenting. Their current lineup is kind of all over the map.

The same but, different. Different, but the same.

Hyundai wants to knock-off Toyota, as does the rest of Earth. And they seem destined to be all over the map, with cars like Genesis and a G37-fighting Tuburon. I've seen this all before.

Hyundai has a niche, and they're rejecting it. VW has a niche.....

DrFill

dewey

certainly agree with THAT! However, what "enthusiast" would ever consider a Prius either? ... sometimes the topic of discussion.

Agree 100 percent with what you are saying above. Words of great wisdom indeed. And with that logic what enthusiast would be attracted to the BMW brand if such a brand sells FWD fuel efficient cars that drive like ice cream trucks?

As Designman had pointed out the most fuel efficient car on earth produced by BMW would contradict what the BMW brand is all about and that is performance..

And what happens when a car company tries to compromise performance with fuel efficiency? The result: A hybrid Honda Accord or a Lexus GS450h---in otherwords a disaster.

Certainly a BMW 535d or a 335d sound like a good compromise. But those compromises will not be enough to satisfy new Euro enviro regualtions.

An independent BMW is too much of a performance niche player to be big enough to cater to both performance enthusiasts and frugal fuel savers simulataneously. They need another marque like Volvo or Honda or even Peugot to do that.

Porsche will not be compelled to produce a certain percentage of gas savers to satisfy environmental restrictions since now it is part of a VW/Audi/Porsche/Seat/Skoda group that already produces several fuel sipping models.

Don't sell BMW short!

LOL! As you know I've always sold BMW short in these forums.

tagman

The EPA 2008 testing method lists Vaden Plas at 19mpg combined . . . compared to 21mpg combined for LS600hL.

Holy Smokes!!! 2 mpg!!!!! Wow... you're right... that LS600hL is really a fuel saver compared to the Jag or the LS460L, which also rates at 19 mpg combined!

Gimmee a break... the obese LS600hL needs to deliver significantly better fuel economy that THAT before it ever gets my nod as a green vehicle.

BTW, wife's Jag achieves better than the new combined rating of 19 mpg.

And... I only use it as an example... I am not some kind of big fan of her car.

TagMan

tagman

Dewey - I do not mean to imply anything that would suggest that you are not a BMW supporter. I know better than THAT!

Apparently, what I'm not expressing well enough is that I believe that performance and "green" can and will go hand-in-hand in the near future. Just because, as your examples show, Toyota/Lexus hasn't done it very well, doesn't mean to me that BMW can't.

TagMan

brightness04

Except being heavy (high sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio) is a virtue for HELC's . . . so that when the car runs over a NYC pot hole, the occupant's champaign is not spilled! Vaden Plas, being a light-weight, doesn't even play in this field until it gets to 4500lb if not 5000lbs. Look up the weight on the Phantom or Maybach . . . the ability to smooth over road irregularities by their sheer weight is a virtue in the V12 HELC class. That's where the V12 Luxury experience comes from.

tagman

While it is true that the ultra heavy sedans can isolate certain road irregularities, that shouldn't be extrapolated to mean that the LS600hL's added weight is a virtue compared to the LS460L. It isn't.

TagMan

brightness04

Of course it is. It's simple physics: sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio. It's the same physics as that a typical 3300lbs family car getting hit by a 6700lbs Rolls-Royce Phantom will come off worse off than the latter.

tagman

Are you suggesting that the LS600hL gets a special suspension compared to the LS460L to compensate for all its extra fat?

lexusguy

I believe that performance and "green" can and will go hand-in-hand in the near future. Just because, as your examples show, Toyota/Lexus hasn't done it very well, doesn't mean to me that BMW can't.

I agree with you, it's just going to take something completely different than what we've seen for the past hundred years or so. Something like a plug-in diesel hybrid would be a decent first step, but I think ultimately we need to move away from fossil fuels entirely in order to see a true "green" performance car. If there's a way, Honda will figure it out. They've been "green" long before Toyota ever thought of HSD.

tagman

I agree with you, it's just going to take something completely different than what we've seen for the past hundred years or so. Something like a plug-in diesel hybrid would be a decent first step, but I think ultimately we need to move away from fossil fuels entirely in order to see a true "green" performance car. If there's a way, Honda will figure it out. They've been "green" long before Toyota ever thought of HSD.

Yes... and here's more information about Honda's incredible green committment that I recently posted on a different forum... but since you bring it up here, I'll share it with you also.

link title

TagMan

lexusguy

Of course it is. It's simple physics: sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio. It's the same physics as that a typical 3300lbs family car getting hit by a 6700lbs Rolls-Royce Phantom will come off worse off than the latter.

So if hypothetically Toyota could make a 5lb. AWD\HSD system for the 600hL, they'd add 995lbs. of dead weight to make the ride smoother?

lexusguy

Yes... and here's more information about Honda's incredible green committment that I recently posted on a different forum... but since you bring it up here, I'll share it with you also.

Sounds like a good system. Either that, or figure out a way to trap all of the cow produced methane and use it as a fuel, kill two birds with one stone.

tagman

As I visualize that...
TM

dewey

BMW an environmentally friendly company?
Well here's a Businessweek article confirming your views.
About over a year ago I read a fantastic article about Honda environmental endeavors. Unfortunately I cant find this in the Businessweek Archive website.

BMW Chief Executive Norbert Reithofer sought to cast a green halo over the German premium automaker Mar. 14, highlighting a new generation of fuel-efficient engines and a new diesel-powered Mini that will get 4.4 liters per 100 km (53.4 US mpg), as evidence of BMW's commitment to combat global warming.

Certain to have an impact on Reithofer's strategic review are the vocal debate over tough new emissions requirements in Europe and the risk of a public shift toward cars with smaller, fuel-saving engines. A market move to environmentally friendly cars could crimp the growth and profitability of BMW and other luxury automakers.

But Reithofer sought to cast the threat as an opportunity to develop innovative solutions while presenting BMW's 2006 financial results at the automakers' glass-and-steel research-and-development center in Munich. BMW reduced the fleet fuel consumption by 30% between 1990 and 2005, he said. The new 1 Series 118i model consumes only 5.9 liters per 100 km (39.9 mpg), down 20% from its predecessor. "In five years we will have the right cars on the road for the market (of 2012)," Reithofer vowed.

BMW aims to introduce other fuel-saving technologies throughout all its models, including brake-energy regeneration, light-weight construction, and automatic stop-start functions. But BMW's biggest bet is on a future of high-performance cars fueled by hydrogen. Hydrogen cars produce no emissions, but to keep the carbon balance positive, the source for liquid hydrogen has to be renewable—and not derived from fossil fuels.

Reithofer said, BMW will sell more than 1.4 million vehicles and will surpass its 2006 profit, excluding the one-time gain from Rolls-Royce. Even before it goes clean, BMW will still be rolling in the green

link title

tagman

BMW an environmentally friendly company?
Well here's a Businessweek article confirming your views

I actually subscribe to BusinessWeek... LOL.

Great link!

Well... it does confirm my views very well, and I'm guessing that you share them also.

TagMan

atlas7

I was looking to buy a new car a few months ago, but my wife wanted a new kitchen, go figure, house is 6 years old. Now that the kitchen is out of the way, I am going to take some test drives. On the list to drive are MB S Class, BMW 7 Series, and LS460. Never had a luxo Sedan before so this will be a new experience and a real treat. I am a car enthusiast, but not on the level of many of the posters in here. Stay tuned, will let you know how it goes..

brightness04

The basic physics of the box-spring model is still valid regardless what type of suspension you are using. BTW, the question should be, are you suggesting that Lexus designed the suspension system for the new LS, knowing full well that there would be a model with heavy batteries, never took that weight into consideration when designing suspension to begin with? The same question can be asked, did MB give S600 a special suspension for the V12?

brightness04

Usually the manufacturers find better use of the extra weight allowed in the design goal than just adding dead weight (e.g. sound deadening material is the same as dead weights as far as vehicle dynamics are concerned, but serves a useful purpose in other regards). . . although that general practice seems to have been partially ingored in the designing and engineering of the 6000lbs Maybach and 6700lbs Rolls-Royce Phantom. I spent nearly an hour inside a running Phantom, but still couldn't quite figure out where BMW put that extra 2500lbs to good use, aside from enhancing sprung-to-unsprung mass ratio (in other words, dead weights could have done just as well).

brightness04

Yups, I'd even suggest a name for that new "microrganism"; it starts with the letter "Y" -- yeast!

I guess now Honda wants to take it to the Germans' home turf, in beer making :-)

brightness04

There is a great source of hybrogen, in the upper atmosphere, where cosmic radiation strikes water vapor, splitting the water molecule into its elemental hydrogen and oxygen, with hydrogen escaping into space. Now if BMW could build a giant tube reaching into the upper atmosphere, they can have all the hydrogen they want :-)

As for rolling the green in, I'm sure that BMW can generate a lot of cash flow by issuing those 7.5% corporate bonds, then turn around and subsidize those leases at effective interest rate of 4.8% or less.

dewey

As for rolling the green in, I'm sure that BMW can generate a lot of cash flow by issuing those 7.5% corporate bonds, then turn around and subsidize those leases at effective interest rate of 4.8% or less.

Oops sorry you are wrong!

First and foremost the reason BMW has so much green is because of their operating efficiency and premium priced products.

Did you say 7.5 percent BMW Bonds?

Nope unfortunately they dont exist.

How about BMW bond coupon rates between 1.625% and 5.25 %. And if you buy their bonds in the secondary bond market you will hardly find any of them yielding more than 5.33 %. Please refer to to the link below for the details on BMW debt:

link title

Oh and by the way in case you did not know BMW bonds have among the highest credit ratings in its sector and its CDS cost is rock bottom in comparison to other high quality corporations. In fact CDS costs for BMW has dropped substantially these past two years which is great indicator of stronger financial strength.

brightness04

Time to read beyond the adjectives in company propagandas. Aside from the nominal interest rate in yen-based carry-trades (like all other yen-based carry-trades worldwide, are facing eminent risk of unravelling), BMW's borrowing cost is not as low as the rate it's charging most lease customers. BMW financial offers personal savings accounts in Europe (i.e. retail banking); even on those retail accounts, BMW is paying out 5.7-6.7%!

First and foremost the reason BMW has so much green is because of their operating efficincy and premium priced products.

Nope. We cleared that up a couple days ago, the operating cash flow was down compared to a year earlier. Customers are not paying BMW in greens (as in cash); they are paying BMW in "house chips" provided by BMWFS. Big difference!

dewey

Propoganda? Are you referring to your 7.5 % BMW bonds? Or your claim about those 5.7 to 6.7% rates currently offered on BMW personal savings accounts?

A drop in one year cash flow is a sign of weakness :confuse:

Sorry but I dont have time to teach you how to read cash flows but the first lesson is that a one year cash flow figure is irrelevant and signifies nothing--unless those cash flows are negative and that apparently is not the case at BMW where they are in high positive territory.

Anyways nice try

Oh and by the way a 29.9 % increas in leased product inventory is not a negative at all. In fact it is a positive. Think of it for a second--BMW leasing business grows and at the same time its CDS cost goes down. That indicates the confidence the market currently has about BMW in general and BMW's leasing business in particular.

brightness04

Double digit sales and profit growth, yet 6.8% cash flow decline . . . what's the usual interpretation for that combination? Channel-stuffing? Sweet-heart vendor-financing? That's exactly what's happening at BMWUSA, with "leased product invetory" up 29.9%! These are huge numbers that can not be just glossed over. Turning massive amount of green cash into inventory asset pretty much invalids all claims of pricing power (and consequently taking claims of product superiority as collateral casualty).

kcy14

Does anyone know how I can get a luxury car to strip for parts? I have a contact who is interested in getting cars to strip for parts.

brightness04

Junk yard, where they take totalled cars after crashes.

lexusguy

On the list to drive are MB S Class, BMW 7 Series, and LS460. Never had a luxo Sedan before so this will be a new experience and a real treat.

I would suggest adding an Audi A8 to that list, and if you want to be adventurous, a Quattroporte Automatica.

dewey

On the list to drive are MB S Class, BMW 7 Series, and LS460.

Good luck with your choice.
Hypotheticically if it was me I would not commit until I test drive the new Porsche Panamera. And I say hypothetically because I would prefer a smaller car like a BMW M5/M3 or Audi RS6/RS4.

houdini1

It will be very interesting to follow you through this saga. I hope to see detailed reports after each test drive. The only car I would add to the list is the A8.

dewey

Engine sounds amazing.
Visually so far itlooks like a 4 door Porsche and that in itself is good thing even for a sedan.

My favorite styling of a soon-to-be car so far is the BMW CS.

drfill

World's Ugliest 4-door hatchback? :confuse:

DrFill

tagman

Yes, the BMW CS is one sweet-looking machine. Here's two more:

1. BMW CS

Pic already posted

2. Panamera GT (not to be confused with the 4-door NON-GT... more like the old 928, but better!)



3. Mercedes Gullwing



TagMan

tagman

I'm placing my order today (not)... :shades:



Here's the article, with video:

link title

TagMan

lexusguy

I'm placing my order today (not)..

That has got to be some of the worst camera work I've ever seen, even by home video standards. Here's an idea, lets shoot people taking pictures of it!

And what is the giant crane for?

pat

Hey folks, let me just remind everyone that we need to be careful when posting pictures that the picture is not so wide as to make readers have to scroll left to right to read every line on a page where the picture appears.

The best way to avoid that is to upload the picture(s) to your personal CarSpace page and then use the automatically generated text to display it/them. They will be correctly resized when you do that.