Luxury Lounge

syswei

We've kind of been through this stuff. I have no problem admitting that the Lexus hybrids, from an mpg standpoint, have disappointed me relative to the promise they seemed to show 3 years ago. And it is believable that the consuming public, as regards hybrids generally, had overly high expectations, in part due to the old EPA methodology. And I have no problem believing that modern diesel is on the rise, and welcome it, and as I said I'd be buying an S Bluetec AWD if MB were to sell one 6 months from now, which they aren't.

But a year from now, when people are looking only at the new EPA numbers, there will be less of a mismatch between EPA mpg and real-world mpg. (Remember I posted the R&T or maybe it was C&D long-term test results for the GS450h, where they described their "heavy-footed" mpg as being HIGHER than the new EPA numbers?)

Hybrid sales are pretty healthy now. Not at Lexus but at Toyota. And I think the new MPG numbers are suggestive of continued success over the coming few years, moreso as the technology improves. Not that diesel can't be successful too. I think they'll both grow....and then merge, technologically.

syswei

Let's go straight to the bottom line: Bangle stole styling from toohbrushes.

Yeah, but ain't Oral-B a German company? This line of discussion just PROVES that Germans are the fount of all design innovation in the world. Whether cars or toothbrushes or...anything!

tagman

Look... let's get this understood. I don't have an issue with hybrids like some posters seem to think. Ever since I started being very enthusiastic about diesels, the hybrid bunch took offense and just assumed I was anti-hybrid.

I do, admittedly, believe that there are weaknesses about the hybrid technology that I am not going to ignore, such as added weight, loss of cargo capacity, battery issues, and driving dynamics, to name a few.

I accept and believe in both powertrain alternatives. The gassers are my biggest complaint... especially gas hogs that could be easily replaced by a comparable diesel engine that would deliver terrific power, driving dynamics, and greater fuel efficiency.

I was and remain largely disappointed in the LS600hL, and I think that might have contributed to branding me anti-hybrid, instead of anti-LS600hL.

As we've both discussed I'd love to see a hybrid diesel in the near future, since that makes the most sense to me.

So... I hope that sets that record straight!



TagMan

tagman

It wasn't that long ago that everyone (except me) here said the Smart car would never sell. I was, at the time, not quite ready to write them off just yet.

Well, it seems that analysts now think the Smart car will likely sell well, at least initially, but there are definately red flags about its long-term outlook.

Here's an article from Advertising Age:

link title

TagMan

houdini1

Lol!! Pat, do I detect a note of PANIC in your post?

houdini1

Like you, I have kind of had my eye on the MDX, thinking I might like to have one. I did not drive one but I sat in one the other day and I was really disappointed in the look and feel. Bummer.

houdini1

As brightness said yesterday, the truth is more important than being right or wrong... and I totally agree with that

WHAT??? Are you nuts??

tagman

LOL.

As I've posted, the new MDX style doesn't do much for me either.

How soon do you expect to purchase something? Aren't you also waiting for a diesel?

TagMan

syswei

Tag,

If you're after a high-mpg SUV, why wait for MB in CA?

new EPA numbers:

2008 ML320CDI - 21 mpg combined

2007 RX400h - 26 mpg combined

Let me guess, you probably had no idea the RX had much better mpg?

tagman

Let me guess, you probably had no idea the RX had much better mpg?

Thanks, but no thanks. And, here's why... first and foremost, I've got to like the vehicle itself, regardless of its powertrain. As nice as some think the RX is, I've never liked its design.

The recent GLK pics that I posted were really good looking... and it's supposed to come out with a diesel shortly after launch.

Here are some pics:





I want that SUV... NOW!

TagMan

syswei

Looks are very subjective and if you like it, you like it. Good luck and I hope it turns out more reliable than the ML or GL. Is it going to be built in Alabama or Europe?

tagman

Yes, looks are subjective, I agree, and that's perfectly fine, of course. I thank you again for the idea of the RX... just not my beverage.

GL probably in Alabama, and GLK probably in Germany.

Curious... You like the pics?

TagMan

syswei

You like the pics?

Not too much, but maybe in person I'd feel differently. It is hard to really like the looks of any SUV, they are mostly not good looking. Currently, I'd say the Cayenne is best-looking to me. But to me exterior styling isn't high on the importance list for an SUV; space and utility and reliability and prestige all rank higher for me.

tagman

But to me exterior styling isn't high on the importance list for an SUV; space and utility and reliability and prestige all rank higher for me.

Hard to get them all in a single vehicle. But I think the GLK diesel could possibly do just that, and also be stylish at the same time... also adding the increased fuel efficiency as one more very important criteria.

TagMan

lexusguy

Well, it seems that analysts now think the Smart car will likely sell well, at least initially, but there are definately red flags about its long-term outlook.

I just don't see a large number of people picking a Smart over a much larger and more capable car like the Fit or Scion xB for the same money. Also, I don't care how advanced the safety cage is, I don't want to be on the wrong side of Smart v. Excursion.

lexusguy

It is hard to really like the looks of any SUV, they are mostly not good looking. Currently, I'd say the Cayenne is best-looking to me.

Wow, Cayenne the best looking SUV? Never thought I'd see that. I like the looks of the Range Rover. It doesn't try to disguise itself as a tall wagon, its an SUV and proud of it thank you very much. Based on the concepts I think the Infiniti EX and Volvo XC60 will look pretty good.

blkhemi

Now that's what I'm talkin 'bout Tag!!!

I have to admit, after doing some deep searching, the GLK is where it's at.

The X3 will never be on the cover of Vogue, but I have no doubts of it's performance and extra space over it's big brother.

The RDX is hopelessly lost in transition. The turbo has the appetite of an Escalade. And it rides "ruffer" than the X3.

The RX. To douse the fire early, no comment.

I'm saying all this because if you'd remember, the wife is looking for something smaller(but fun) to drive than our JGC SRT-8. She does most of her commuting to the city.

After being let down by MB on the GL's fit/finish(remember, she's an old Mercedesphile), the MDX unappealing interior and blah exterior styling, and our Range Rover dealer not wanting to budge off of the $92k asking price of the Range Rover Supercharged she wanted, she's now considering the smaller ute's.

Maybe when the GLK gets here, that may be the ticket. She's been doing some reading on the latest clean diesels, and after us going back and forth on the benefits relative to the initial uptick in price, she's now a convert.

designman

Hi Tagman, between work and vacation I've been busy.

I agree with you on the Range Rover. I always liked square unpretentious utility vehicles. Here are some of my favorites:









And then there are the Power Ranger vehicles I don't care for:

2001gs430

Get an RX400h, then buy some performance shocks/springs and you would have one bad SUV that shoud be fun to drive.

drfill

What about the Land Rover Discovery? Isuzu Trooper? Cherokee?

DrFill

tagman

If you like boxy, then this upcoming 2009 Ford Flex could be right up your alley. Not for me, though.

Are they betting their future on this? Interior isn't half bad, although it looks like Ford is now solid on the triple-blade shaver front grill, as with the new Edge, new Taurus, and new Taurus X, as well.







Coming to a Ford dealer near you, Summer '08.

TagMan

bristol2

Looks like you just dislike too many design motifs going on at the same time or an emphasis on lines.

I would think that you would be struggling with most of the recent stuff from MB and BMW.

Fair enough, I am with you on the wagon shapes.
Do you think the current generation Outback is over-done? From the back, perhaps so, but I like the front view.

syswei

You guys don't like the FJ Cruiser?

drfill

You ask the silliest questions.

DrFill

tagman

syswei,
I OWN an FJ Cruiser! It's my temporary holdout.
TM

designman

If you like boxy, then this upcoming 2009 Ford Flex could be right up your alley.

Yep, I like it. Obviously Range Rover influence. I also like the Freestyle. Of course I'm talking about styling here and nothing else. I was disappointed when they didn't make it with a convertible as originally planned. That really ups the utility immensely.

designman

Doc, too tall and unrefined. Rough-hewn.

designman

Looks like you just dislike too many design motifs going on at the same time or an emphasis on lines.

Bingo!

Do you think the current generation Outback is over-done?

Glad you mentioned the Outback. I have the last generation and was not pleased when the new one came out. However it has grown on me a bit. Yes I'd say just a little overdone but it doesn't grope for attention which I like.

designman

You guys don't like the FJ Cruiser?

Yes I like it a lot. Very different from the stuff Toyota has been putting out. Has a machine-shop look to it. It's also moon roverish.

bristol2

Glad you mentioned the Outback. I have the last generation and was not pleased when the new one came out. However it has grown on me a bit. Yes I'd say just a little overdone but it doesn't grope for attention which I like.

The '95-'99 was my favourite for unassuming functionality. At first the new placement of the reverse lights seemed 'off' but now I like the linear motif at the back.

Don't know why I care, I don't have one. I just think that Subaru used to have a design approach that I enjoyed (functional) then lost it and now are maybe starting to become simply average ('08 Tribeca).

houdini1

Yes, my wife recently informed me, uh, that is, I have decided that I might be in the market for the upcoming LX 570.

If I can talk some sense into her before it becomes available, yes, I like the diesel version of the GLK and the Tiguan (Spell). Not that I would not want the new LX, but man, that is a lot of dough to shell out.

Our current LX 470 is getting a little long in the tooth but it is still in perfect shape so I would like to hang on to it for a while longer. I took a BIG tax credit back in 2003 and had to keep it for a while. I think this is the last year.

As you can see I really have no idea as to what I finally might pull the trigger on. Someone please help me.

drfill

Will offer 3rd-row seating. :surprise:

That is quite a spread, from LX to Tiguan. I reckon 3rd-row seating isn't all that important if you are considering a Rav4-sized SUV.

Edmunds take on the 2009 RX:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=116536?imw=Y

DrFill

tagman

The big requirement for my wife is the third row seat and luxury. The GL does both best, although a Suburban has good third row room, but we've been down the Denali road and will never go there again. The new upcoming LX will be a gas hog, so it is ruled out. That's why a GL diesel seems perfect for her.

For me, however, I want a smaller SUV for when the Carrera isn't realistic to drive. My current FJ Cruiser has drawbacks... rear seat comfort being the prime issue, although there are plenty of other issues.

But, the GLK with a diesel, for my use, seems ideal. I just hate waiting so long. The Tiguan could be a consideration, and I'll check it out when it arrives. The preliminary data on it is exciting and very positive.

TagMan

bristol2

You mention not counting the Suburban/ Denali. Don't mention it because getting that 3rd row in and out with GM's rear axle is a nightmare.

The Expi/ Navigator 3rd row may be one of the best in the business with push-button up and down.

Maybe not what you want to hear...

syswei

I'm in a similar situation. My wife drives an LX which we want to replace, and will probably end up with an LX570.

I think the LX570 will guzzle too much, but the GL is unreliable and the MDX not luxurious or prestigious enough, and the RR doesn't have a third row.

drfill

Isn't brought up. It provides the 3rd-row, same engine in a smaller size, so better performance, good reviews, and a lower price tag.

When I sit in one, I definitely notice it's polished interior and striking extrior style. :shades:

Better to keep it in the family, than to "Roll the dice".

DrFill

tagman

The Denali XL is the one I meant to mention. Very large room in the third row. The Expedition/Navigator is indeed designed better, I agree!!... but another oversized gas hog ain't gonna happen!

The GL is big, but not too big, and the diesel will get mid twenties mpg. It's luxurious inside and has everything she and the kids will need, and it's still reasonably maneuverable for its size, unlike the Denali XL... which challenged her parking skills all too often.

Again, the new LX will be very nice, but way too thirsty!

TagMan

tagman

The 2009 RX?

Not all that exciting.

Similar interior as the log-in-tooth current version, and the possibility of a thirsty V8... hopefully it would have the hybrid attached to help quench its thirst, but it will still only get low to mid 20's, and it's not the luxury level of the LX or the Mercedes GL, that's for sure.

TagMan

houdini1

My problem with the GLK, Tiguan, etc. is that they may be just too small. I think I might feel like a dork driving one, but maybe not. We'll see.

tagman

Better to keep it in the family, than to "Roll the dice".

That's the kind of baloney that bugs me, Doc. All you ever do is push Toyota/Lexus like you were getting a commission for every post. Feeding off the fears of "rolling the dice" is how Toyota/Lexus salesmen operate much of the time.

TagMan

tagman

My problem with the GLK, Tiguan, etc. is that they may be just too small. I think I might feel like a dork driving one, but maybe not. We'll see.

I know what you mean. They might not feel "substantial" enough. But the trend is definatley to smaller SUVs, and smaller vehicles in general, so I'm not as concerned as I would otherwise be. Besides, the wife will have the big GL. If I was going to choose only one, the GL with a diesel is the one it would be, hands down!!

They are now available outside of California. You should check it out.

Here's the Edmunds review of the GL 320 CDI 4Matic:

link title

TagMan

drfill

The man asked for my help, and I will definitely give it to him. My advice is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Sounds like the wife wants a big Lexus SUV. And my man may not need that much SUV, but wants a happy home.

I listen to wants and needs, then make a recommendation.

You're the one running down every Lexus product because they have "thirsty" V8s. Name a V8 that isn't "thirsty"?

The wife loves the LX, no? So why go completely off the brand? The next SUV has a lot of truck to follow. Lexus has a way of doing things. The wife seems to agree with that way. Why upset the applecart?

Give me a reason Lexus can't sell them another vehicle? Lexus losing a happy customer is baloney, Tag. :confuse:

My recommendation is get a 2009 RX LWB, with a 300HP V6. You get V8 power, and V6 economy, and don't have to give up interior room. It'll probably have a larger interior than the LX.

If my recommendation doesn't fulfill his needs, please call me out on it. From what I know, the RX should fit the bill quite nicely. Which is between a Tiquan and an LX570.

DrFill

lexusguy

Get an RX400h, then buy some performance shocks/springs and you would have one bad SUV that shoud be fun to drive.

A coilover kit and sway bars might take care of the body roll, but they can't fix lifeless steering. That's built in to the design of the rack, there's no way to really fix it.

lexusguy

I just think that Subaru used to have a design approach that I enjoyed (functional) then lost it and now are maybe starting to become simply average ('08 Tribeca).

The '08 Tribeca is second only to the new Impreza for death by focus group. The Tribeca looks like a Chrysler, and the Impreza either a Kia or a Daewoo. I have a feeling that the EVO X is going to mop the floor with the WRX/STi in sales.

lexusguy

Edmunds take on the 2009 RX:

I really hope the production interior isn't anything like that concept, which appears to be a direct rip-off of Acura's multimedia interface.

tagman

My recommendation is get a 2009 RX LWB, with a 300HP V6. You get V8 power, and V6 economy

Heck, the 230 HP V6 in the FJ is a gas hog... how could a 300 HP be more economical?

You should know that V6's forced to work like a V8 end up using even more gas than the thirsty V8, not less.

You're the one running down every Lexus product because they have "thirsty" V8s. Name a V8 that isn't "thirsty"?

I'd say the same thing about any thirsty V8 from any manufacturer... I'm not picking on Lexus! That's why I'm positive that replacing those V8's with a diesel is a smart move... and you get tremendous improvement in fuel economy and retain the towing capacity and cargo handling power... unlike a V6, which would work too hard and suck even more gas.

A V8 that isn't thirsty depends upon its application... the Jag's V8 gets 27 highway mpg in the big XJ Vanden Plas! Why? Because the aluminum XJ doesn't weigh hardly much more than a 3-series!

How come you don't know this stuff?

The man asked for everyone's help, not just yours. You are entitled to your opinion and recommendation, of course, but others will have a different point of view and perhaps a different recommendation. I guarantee you that I'll be recommending fuel efficient alternatives, such as diesel or hybrid, when it makes sense. You are right that I don't like a thirsty engine whether it's a V6 or a V8, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Heck, the Acura RDX is a gas hog... it's one of the things that's wrong with that little SUV.

TagMan

drfill

I know I was listening to Syswei, unlike some people.

He didn't say "I need maximum towing" or "Maximum economy".

I know I wouldn't roll the dice on a $50k+ diesel in it's first year in any American application, especially from Mercedes, who's first years leave something to be desired. :sick:

What's important is what Syswei wants.

But if the family is coming out of a LX470, a totally different maker is gonna be a hard sell to the wife.

I have a family to protect. Lexus Withdrawal Syndrome has damaged many a home.

Protect This House!

DrFill

tagman

I know I was listening to Syswei, unlike some people.

Yeah, unlike me! I was talking about houdini's post!!

I know I wouldn't roll the dice on a $50k+ diesel in it's first year in any American application, especially from Mercedes...

You obviously know nothing about Mercedes diesels. Maybe you should talk to Dewey about them. I think he must have near a quarter million miles on his Mercedes diesel!

Lexus Withdrawal Syndrome has damaged many a home.

Gimmee a break already. I can understand Porsche Withdrawal Syndrome ... but you are going WAY too far here, Mr. Salesman.

TagMan

drfill

Fair enough. You help Houdini. I'll advise Syswei.

Uh....last I heard, Lexus had the Best Retention in the business. Don't you know these facts?

And I'll take a BLT with Fries on the side, heeavy on the ketchup, hold the mayo!

DrFill

lexusguy

Heck, the 230 HP V6 in the FJ is a gas hog... how could a 300 HP be more economical?

Well they are different engines. The FJ uses Toyota's 4.0L truck engine. The 3.5L in Lexus form with direct injection and VVT on intake and exhaust valves is very fuel efficient for the amount of power that it produces, much more so than the Acura and Infiniti 3.5s.