Luxury Lounge

bristol2

CH3(CH2)nCOOH - chemical formula for lipids.

I don't see S anywhere in there.

brightness04

I think I have made a big mistake. I was thinking of phospholipids, where the extra atom (other than C, H and O) is photospher, not sulfur. Yeah, you are right, ultra low sulfur requirement should not impose extra obstacle in the way of making biodiesel. Mea Culpa, for that I apologize.

hmm, I'm sensing a possible change in my disposition towards diesel . . . now someone better come up with a really effective particulate trap, and quick :-)

hpowders

Looks like a typical formula for a straight chain polymeric fatty acid. Wish I knew the formula of the blue stuff used to tint BMW mirrors.

tagman

Thanks, Doc... always nice to see the Porsche take on all opponents. Except for a tiny margin by the R8 in the slalom, the Porsche clearly won all else.

Porsche... there is no substitute! :shades:

TagMan

brightness04

I learned organic chemistry in three different languages . . . and apparently I got my P and S mixed up (as I repeatedly mis-spell "Sulpher" :-) My bad.

tagman

Exactly! There have been quite a few reports from World Health Organization on the rising lung cancer rate in Europe. That's why many European cities and governments are starting to ban diesels from their cities, or at least make it so restrictive as to severely impact diesels sales in Europe soon. That's why the manufacturers are desperately looking for new markets.

Trash!

Old diesel emmissions are history compared to the new diesels. In the same light, the old gassers used to belch out oily smoke before they got their act together.

Nowadays, the gassers are relatively clean, and the new diesels will be as well... in fact the new diesels will be CLEANER than many of those gassers!

TagMan

tagman

I wouldn't think that putting an improper fuel in a gas car would help it much either. Duh.

Apples to apples.

TagMan

hpowders

"I think I have made a big mistake."

One little sulfur atom negates 1707 of your posts! Heh! Heh!

brightness04

Depending on what your definition of "those gassers" are. Most gasoline cars on the market have been exceeding the government emission requirement by a wide margin. It's the diesels that have been struggling.

tagman

ALL the Mercedes diesels are selling above expectations at this point.

Just wait... you haven't seen anything yet... the sales will increase in a couple of years to a very rapid pace. You will want to place your deposit in advance!

TagMan

tagman

Anyone know how its selling in the US at this point, in the states where it is legal?

ALL the Mercedes diesels are selling above expectations at this point.

Just wait... you haven't seen anything yet... the sales will increase in a couple of years to a very rapid pace. You will want to place your deposit in advance!

TagMan

hpowders

Don't worry about the spelling. It's the thought that counts.

brightness04

Well deserved dig indeed. In the semi-conductor industry, it's either called "contamination" or "doping" . . . doh?! followed by the Homer dope slap :-)

hpowders

At least you admitted your mistake. Some folks would rather simply "move away" than face the truth!

tagman

Knowing the physics and chemistry involved, I can not endorse "clean diesel."

Sorry, Charlie... you are dead wrong on this one!

The BlueTec received the "World Green Car Award" from many scientists... who know a bunch more than you do on this one!

It seems the well-educated judges didn't need your endorsement to honor the BlueTec with the credit it deserves.

TagMan

tagman

hmm, I'm sensing a possible change in my disposition towards diesel . . . now someone better come up with a really effective particulate trap, and quick

F I N A L L Y !!! You are beginning to see the light!!

Welcome aboard!!



TagMan

brightness04

"World Green Car Award" is a political title at best. What does "Green Car" mean?

1. Low local emission?
2. Low CO2 emission?

or

3. Islamic? :-)

"BlueTec" itself refers to quite different engine treatments. Does it come with the blue liquid or not?

brightness04

Now that the Sulfur (busy punching the spell check button) issue is resolved, if the particulate and Nox issue really get resolved, I'd have no problem endorsing diesel. I had a diesel car many years ago, so I'd certainly have no qualms about trying it again so long as it is not one of those "fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me" deal :-)

tagman

I had a diesel car many years ago

Depending upon what you had, you either loved it or hated it. So... which one?

TagMan

brightness04

What I loved:

1. The idea that if long lines formed at the gas station again, I could siphon fuel out of my home heating oil tank.

2. Worse comes to worst, I might be able to run on vegetable oil, at least for a while.

What I hated:

1. Grossly underpowered

2. Hard to start when weather got really cold

3. The tail pipe emission was terrible. That also precluded the trucker practice of keeping the engine running overnight on really cold nights.

ps. if your question meant which model, it was an MB 300TD wagon.

syswei

ALL the Mercedes diesels are selling above expectations at this point.

Have you seen any numbers? Curious to see to what extent they've gotten over the diesel stigma in this country.

tagman

Yes... I did run across some recently... and the sales are indeed above expectations.

I promise to post them the next time I see them again.

Trust me, the diesel "stigma" will be radically changed after the Honda Accord diesel, BMW 5-series diesel, and other significant cars come to market.

TagMan

syswei

Trust me, the diesel "stigma" will be radically changed after the Honda Accord diesel, BMW 5-series diesel, and other significant cars come to market.

I think we'll just have to wait and see. I don't sense, for example, that the general media has treated the Bluetec diesels in the same way they have the Prius. The addition of more diesel models may or may not change that.

tagman

I don't sense, for example, that the general media has treated the Bluetec diesels in the same way they have the Prius. The addition of more diesel models may or may not change that.

Even with practically every review being of the very positive nature of the AutoWeek article I posted yesterday... there simply aren't enough of them yet, as it is still too early.

We on this forum are looking into our crystal ball because we are more aware than most about what will be the future cars coming to market. Most folks don't know or care near as much.

But, as you indicated about the addition of more models causing a change... YES, the ultimate release of the many diesels over the next years will cause a much larger public awareness and more media attention, as well as increased advertising.

At this point there is essentially no real cohesive marketing campaign to speak of... but there will be more than one at the right time.

TagMan

bristol2

I consider it an honour to have gone 3 rounds with you and reach agreement!

I just kept imagining soy beans and knew that there was no sulphur in those little fellas...

Anyway, glad that we were able to thrash it out.

I am a cheerleader for biodiesel and diesel (in combination) primarily because the bio- does such great things to improve the impact of the ULSD. As we've stated previously the ULSD sulphur-scrubbing removes a lot of viscosity which is a problem that is addressed by using blend. Also the blend continues to improve the various emissions as biodiesel emissions are virtually non-toxic.

houdini1

You mis-read that. I was surprised that Lexus was ahead in dollar sales. Which they were.

bristol2

Looks like a typical formula for a straight chain polymeric fatty acid. Wish I knew the formula of the blue stuff used to tint BMW mirrors.

Man, you are brutal!

I thought that particular subject was out of sight, out of mind.

I will note that I again saw the blue tint on a 3-series mirrors just the other day. I always think of you while I am chasing down Bimmers to review their mirror treatments!

BTW, I think the formula is BS2M3W...

tagman

Talk about perfect timing!... here is a terrific article about diesel vs. hybrid...

diesels challenge hybrids

TagMan

brightness04

Thank you for being so gracious after winning the argument. Really appreciate that.

I'm quite fond of the biodiesel idea. My mistaken view on how the ULS requirement would affect biodiesel was a big part that turned me against upcoming "clean diesel." If the new engine management still allows the backup plan of running on easily obtainable forms of fuel in case of a disruption in the normal petroleum diesel distribution network, I'm a lot more amenable to "clean diesel."

tagman

bristol2 - you and I are so much on the same page. Thank you for your recent terrific posts!

TagMan

brightness04

Yup. For a moment I thought S was ahead on nominal "sales." Apparently, it can't even accomplish that despite all the number fudging on leases.

tagman

I'm a lot more amenable to "clean diesel."

So... we do not have to argue about it any more? WOW!

I am so glad to see you come around brightness!!

TagMan

syswei

Thanks, I guess the buying public is better-informed than I thought.

Anyone know what the timing is supposed to be on diesel hybrids from MB or anyone else? Seems to me that MB has been showing them on the autoshow circuit for a couple of years.

brightness04

Realizing that "clean diesel" and its ULS requirement does not demolish the biodiesel parallel infrustructure, I'm no longer hostile towards "clean diesel."

It will however take truely low emission, especially particulate count, to convince me that "clean diesel" is on par with gasoline hybrids in terms of worthiness for popularization.

BTW, IIRC, the cleanest diesel in Europe actually are made by Honda and Toyota.

tagman

Thanks, I guess the buying public is better-informed than I thought.

Anyone know what the timing is supposed to be on diesel hybrids from MB or anyone else? Seems to me that MB has been showing them on the autoshow circuit for a couple of years.

You're welcome! Really good article... glad you got to read it.

The first diesel hybrid applied to a compact car and sold in the U.S. will probably come from Toyota!! They have plans to sell one by 2010 with Hybrid Synergy Drive. Their stake in Isuzu will pay off.

Citroen has actually built successful prototypes of diesel hybrids over a year ago. I do not know any actual production status.

One thing for sure... by the time we see a diesel hybrid... both the diesel engine and the hybrid technology will be improved... leading to a terrific marriage of the two.

A diesel hybrid makes great sense, and I would strongly consider being a buyer for one... if it was in a model I liked!

TagMan

houdini1

I think those mirrors were just washed with that blue windshield washer fluid.

Incidentally, I know for a fact that if you run out of the bluetec fluid you can also just use the blue windshield washer fluid. I've got the chemical formula here for that stuff somewhere, I think. I know it starts with BS. :shades: That stuff has as many uses as duct tape!

tagman

It will however take truely low emission, especially particulate count, to convince me that "clean diesel" is on par with gasoline hybrids in terms of worthiness for popularization.

Allow me to use a Honda Accord in three versions... hybrid, diesel, and gasser as a means of comparison...

Does it help you out?

link title

TagMan

bristol2

Brutal, brutal, brutal....

brightness04

I've never considered CO2 emission to be much of a problem . . . in any case, the hot burn every few seconds to clean the soot trap will generate a lot of CO2 that was not measured back then in that comparison. What's concerns me more in terms of emission are localized pollutants that are truely detrimental to human health; both the gaseous forms like NOx and CO, and especially particulates, which tend to stick around near ground level until a human lung plays the role of a soot trap :-(

tagman

BTW, IIRC, the cleanest diesel in Europe actually are made by Honda and Toyota.

It's the diesel technology and the powertrain that interests me more than who makes it. I would gladly accept a diesel from Honda or Toyota if it was in a car that was interesting to me.

That becomes the sticky point. I am in the market for a small SUV. What small SUV interests me the most? Not a Honda or Toyota. Actually it's the upcoming Mercedes GLK... and I will wait for the diesel engine.

TagMan

brightness04

Can't argue with that :-) BTW, isn't X3 also coming with a diesel version? If I have to take a guess, the most likely Toyota and Honda SUV platforms to take a diesel first would be the RAV4(or a Lexus version) and CRV/RDX. RDX is probably well suited for a diesel, seeing that it's strapped down with a turbo I4 largely because Honda lacks V6 engine production capacity; an I4 turbodiesel would actually work better than the current I4.

brightness04

hahaha, ironicly, IIRC, Windex's most important active ingredient is ammonia . . . so yeah, you are definitely on the right track :-)

2001gs430

I remembered reading that you are also convinced that powerful diesel engines with clean exhaust are next to impossible to produce. Does that still stand in light of your new found belief?

bristol2

If I have to take a guess, the most likely Toyota and Honda SUV platform to take a diesel first would be the RAV4(or a Lexus version)

I am very skeptical that Lexus will be the place that Toyota starts with diesel.
I actually believe that Toyota as a whole may lag behind even the domestics on diesel in the US because they are so vested (reputation, marketing money and hybrid-cheerleaders) in electric power.

They have great non-US applications of diesel tech (notably the Hi-Lux and Land Cruiser) but have made no announcements on pursuing the improved emissions requirements for the US.

2001gs430

Mr Houdini, you are very funny

brightness04

My dim view on diesel power output and exhaust problem have not changed. The limit on power comes from lower RPM (diesel burns slower); the exhaust problem comes with the diesel combustion process, which entails higher temperature and higher pressure, which on the plus side gives us higher thermoefficiency, but on the downside also means more NOx and more particulates.

brightness04

I agree. RAV4 is the most likely SUV platform to take on one of the small diesel engines that Toyota already excels at making in Europe. However, like you said, there are myriads of business considerations that Toyota would like to keep the focus on the brand equiity of "Prius" (for Toyota) and "H" (for Lexus). The tightening standards both in the US and soon to be in Europe may have also convinced Toyota to focus on hybrids.

syswei

I actually believe that Toyota as a whole may lag behind even the domestics on diesel in the US because they are so vested (reputation, marketing money and hybrid-cheerleaders) in electric power.

A reasonable point, but in Europe they introduced a diesel IS maybe 2 years ago, I believe.

Maybe in the U.S., Lexus will go straight to diesel hybrid. Just speculating.

tagman

Can't argue with that BTW, isn't X3 also coming with a diesel version? If I have to take a guess, the most likely Toyota and Honda SUV platforms to take a diesel first would be the RAV4(or a Lexus version) and CRV/RDX. RDX is probably well suited for a diesel, seeing that it's strapped down with a turbo I4 largely because Honda lacks V6 engine production capacity; an I4 turbodiesel would actually work better than the current I4.

Diesel X3 isn't a gimmee yet. Likely X5 and a sedan first... X3 later.

Toyota's diesel model is anyone's guess.

Honda's first U.S. diesel will be a 4-banger in the Accord, and then they will introduce their newly developed V6 diesel into their truck line... Ridgeline, Odyssey and Pilot in around 2010.

TagMan

hpowders

Re the formula, BS2M3W.

Uh oh... looks like some sulfur in there! Call the tinting company! Get out the gas masks! Hopefully my nasal hairs will be able to block the particulates. LOL!!