Let me be clear on this issue so we can move foward.
Beyond the fact of what some posters here think on my stance on this matter, one particular in fact, I'm for improving our infrastructure on sustaining self-independence on energy. Hybrid is currently all the rave, and rightfully so.
And let's face it. Toyota is the leader in this hands down right now. I do not contest that, in fact I applaud it.
But I'm just mystified on several issues involving some of the decisions regarding Lexus Hybrids. They all have no purpose whatsoever. I know that is harsh, but the GS450h is really pointless. The RX is now pushed aside by the not-to-less-thriftier 350, and the 600hL is not everything it was promised to be. I'm done with that. We all must agree to disagree before Pat brings out the whip.
But look what Toyota has done with the hybrid systems. A 40+mpg Camry? Who woulda thought. The Prius is the venerable captain here.
This is all to say that I'm for it 100%. But use with a bit of sense to get mileage, not performance. The Prius was never billed as "performance hybrid", yet it gets to 60-mph in 9.5 secs, the class norm.
We have gone through this quite a few times already. You are a certified financial accountant. Go read the details in the BMW annual report that you linked to us earlier.
IMHO, a lot of it probably has to do with the product development cycle. Both GS450 and RX400h were late compared to their original product schedule. When they were introduced, both GS450 and RX400h made sense (compared to GS300 and RX330 at the time, or even more sense if it the alternative had been RX300). However, each were diminished by the parallel "regular program" (the 350's) in a few short months, in the value sense. The regular team, or A-team, is strong at Lexus. The B-team needs to have less product delays. They gotta keep in mind, a product is always valued in comparison to the alternatives.
Thank you. I try to keep in mind that the truth is bigger than myself being right or wrong; I can only strive to be on the side of truth . . . cuz I don't have Steve Jobs' reality bending machine . . . now if I had my hands on that machine, watch out :-)
It will be interesting to see how the two types of cars match up in the coming year. By the time the E320BT is 50-state legal next year, chances are that Toyota will have the I4-HSD tweaked to 208hp or thereabouts shortly. The two will be a good match up.
Unfortunately not yet. I played with one a couple weeks ago at a business meeting, when a colleague was showing off. It's quite awesome, but I'm a little partial to my current cellphone carrier (well having four lines with them also precludes switching).
Oh, brother, that's a good metaphysical question, and you know I love those :-) IMHO, "ruth" is a probablisticly assigned value by the individual or group of individuals. Those with sharply define probablistic drop-off's that are validated by subsequent real-life observations, and take action accordingly in preparation for subsequent events, tend to do well in life.
Unfortunately not yet. I played with one a couple weeks ago at a business meeting, when a colleague was showing off. It's quite awesome, but I'm a little partial to my current cellphone carrier.
I bought that iPhone for my wife. As for me, as much as I like electronic gadgets, it's hard to beat the elegant ultra-thin easy-to-use flip-phone-style Motorola Razr... I also believe that the Gillette Sensor Excel represents the best shave achieved, and the rest are overkill.
Oh, brother, that's a good metaphysical question, and you know I love those IMHO, "ruth" is a probablisticly assigned value by the individual or group of individuals. Those with sharply define probablistic drop-off's that are validated by subsequent real-life observations, and take action accordingly in preparation for subsequent events, tend to do well in life.
It will be interesting to see how the two types of cars match up in the coming year. By the time the E320BT is 50-state legal next year, chances are that Toyota will have the I4-HSD tweaked to 208hp or thereabouts shortly. The two will be a good match up.
I will be interested in comparing cars of similar weight to see how the diesels and the hybrids do side-by-side.
Same here, a good old Motorola Razr (until the lithion iron battery rots sometime next year anyway). I don't grow enough facial hair to warrant anything more than the blue plastic two-blade disposable stuff that we get at the Costco every once in a while. I think it's Gillete something. It has the virtue of staying fresh in the glovebox :-)
I think the two are comparable in weight and dimensions, only 100+lbs from each other.
Well, we can verify all that when the time comes. If so, then it will be an interesting comparo, as will others.
Right now, I'm liking the way diesel fuel cost less than regular! Very nice indeed... especially if it stays that way when my turn comes. And... it's readily available here! Too bad there's no vehicles here yet!
Ok, but this is really Lexus first application of the hybrid technology and I think they are doing fine. I have driven the GS450h and I can tell you it's a rocket! Quiet, smooth, and very fast. The car that makes no sense is the GS430 as it is sandwiched between the GS350 and the GS450H. Also, I believe as the batteries get smaller, lighter, cheaper, the Lexus line up will sell a lot more Hybrid cars (with larger trunks)This is just the beginning of what is to come, a Lexus hybrid for every model. I have no empirical data to support this, but change is constant and it appears that Toyota/Lexus is headed in the right direction. Even if mileage in some of the Lexus Hybrid cars isn't spectacular, aren't these cars cleaner than their non hybrid or diesel counterparts?
Thanks for mentioning the Camry, because I had never checked the mpg stats of the hybrid.
Here are some interesting numbers, all using fueleconomy.gov and the new EPA methodology
Camry standard engine: displacement - 2.4 l MPG combined - 24 total cu ft - 116 (interior + trunk space)
Camry hybrid: displacement - 2.4 l MPG combined - 34 (42% better than std Camry) total cu ft - 112
MB E350: displacement - 3.5 l MPG combined - 19 total cu ft - 111
MB E320 Bluetec: displacement - 3.0 l MPG combined - 26 (37% better than E350) total cu ft - 111
So the Camry actually shows a bigger percentage increase in mpg by going to hybrid than the E gets by going diesel...even though the diesel engine is actually smaller-displacement than the ICE in the E.
Just goes to show that hybrid can in SOME instances achieve pretty impressive results....even ignoring the Prius.
What's even more impressive is that the hybrid Camry delivers more power than the standard while delivering 42% gas mileage, whereas the E320 delivers much less power than E350 despite its smaller fuel mileage gain.
. . . and this is the first generation hybrid Camry . . . whereas MB has been honing diesel engine making skills for 100+ years.
My guess is that when we get next-generation, higher power density batteries, and an "economy / performance" selector switch for the hybrid powertrain, the Lexus hybrid models will look more attractive than they do now.
And then they'll get around to diesel hybrid, someday.
Go read the details in the BMW annual report that you linked to us earlier. The cash position is down. The "profit" comes from piling up assets in "lease product inventories." Given the huge gap between residual (i.e. the value at which these "leased product inventories" are assigned in the books) and the real life auction value, what else can it be described, besides "book cooking/number-dressing" so typical of vendor financing?
Wow what a sigh of relief!
For a second there I thought you actually had some real proof about BMW cooking their books. I am so relieved to find out that you dont have such real evidence except mere conjectures that are applicable to all auto financing businesses and not specifically to BMW.
I cited the primary source, the annual report itself. If you are looking for secondary sources, such as indictment, and tertiary sources such as magazine stories, well those pieces of gems usually come later, usually too late, after the house of cards have already collapsed. If it is irrelevent sources of info that you are looking for, such as their ex-auditor and his uncle getting arrested working on someone else' account, well, I haven't dug around to look for any.
As to your blithe statement "that are applicable to all auto financing business and not specifically to BMW," well, the difference between book cooking and normal book keeping is exactly in the value and risk factors assigned, isn't it? By your logic, there can be no book cooking until someone gets indicted . . . which kinda puts the cart in front of the horse :-)
Besides, if you really don't have the patience to read through the annual report, and dig up the numbers buried there (besides the rosy picture painted on the first few pages), there are secondary idications of the problem: complaints about earning quality by Dresdner Bank analysts. When you gather up the patience to read the actual annual report in detail (available on www.bmwgroup.com), you will see just how poor the earning quality is. The company has been turning vast amount of cash into an asset class called "leased product inventories," which takes on the fictitious lease "sale" price as inventory value. That's how "profit" is cooked up. Due to the massive difference between residual and real life resale, plus subsidized lease interest rates, BMWUSA has a much higher per centage of cars "sold" through leases than the industry average, so your statement "that are applicable to all auto financing business and not specifically to BMW" doesn't hold water either, because not all auto financing business run numbers that highly fudged. For example, Lexus usually gives residuals that are lower than real life resale, so consumers tend to buy Lexus instead of leasing, up to this point. Dramatic departure from industry average lease-to-sale ratio clearly indicates lease terms not matching real life resale even if you do not have the patience or objectivity to go through real resale numbers analysis.
I bought that iPhone for my wife. As for me, as much as I like electronic gadgets, it's hard to beat the elegant ultra-thin easy-to-use flip-phone-style Motorola Razr... I also believe that the Gillette Sensor Excel represents the best shave achieved, and the rest are overkill.
While I think the iPhone, like the iPod deserves credit for making the "smartphone" more accessible to the average joe (that can afford a $600 phone), I wasn't very impressed with it, and I'm already on AT&T so there's no hassle there. I use the ". , ? () and !" keys on my Nokia E62 constantly, so having to switch from the "keyboard" to the symbols menu every time I needed to end a sentence was already a deal breaker. I also need the Nokia's integrated exchange server support, miniSD slot and removable battery. Aside from that, I'm not big on giving Cupertino $400 of pure profit for a phone thats not even 3G capable (technically neither is the E62, but its a few years old, and was $150) I have yet to buy into any "iHype".
I do find it amusing though that using YouTube or any streaming video on AT&T's data network violated TOS right up until the day the iPhone was launched.
You are correct. BMW inflates its residuals and offers reasonable interest rates to encourage leasing. I find the combination irresistible.
Lexus and Acura do the exact opposite. For some reason they are on a crusade to discourage leasing. At this point in time I can buy an MDX and arrange my own financing at 2.9% interest for 36 months. Going through Honda Financial, I can do an MDX 36 month lease for 6.96% interest which is its lowest base interest rate. Dealers can actually inflate this rate on unsuspecting customers.
Predictably, there has been a substantial build-up in MDX inventory.
Besides, if you really don't have the patience to read through the annual report, and dig up the numbers buried there (besides the rosy picture painted on the first few pages),
Pardon my amnesia but did I not refer to BMW's detailed financials at least a hundred times or so in this forum? :confuse:
BMWUSA has a much higher per centage of cars "sold" through leases than the industry average A lower cash balance?
How on earth does your description above prove that BMW is cookin their books?
You're definitely incorrect on this one point.
Increased leasing does not mean cooked books.. It is true that lease financing may increase the potential of cooked books but it does not mean cooked books. And if BMW was cooking their books with lease financing or inflated residuals then that would be evident on their cash flows.
And guess what? Such evidence does not exist.
In addition a lower cash balance is not indicative of a financial problem especially for an auto firm with one of the healthiest balance sheet in the automobile industy. Also generating vast amounts of cashflow does not contradict having a lower cash balance.Just like the amount of cash a person has in his wallet is not indicative of whether he is poor or rich. Just like a lower cash balance in a wealthy person's savings bank account does not in anyway imply that he is not generating millions in income.
Howard you are correct BMW does provide inflated residuals. But that does not mean in anyway that BMW's high profitability is cooked. Unfudged high profitability and inflated residuals are not necessarily a contradiction.
Pat, I agree I think we all had enough of this discussion. For any masochist who has an intense desire to read these discussions should refer to past luxury lounge/high end luxury car forums posts.
"Operating activities of BMW Group generated . . . 9,980 million in 2006, down by euro 711 million or 6.7% compared to one year earlier."
So how credible are those double-digit profit and revenue increases in the headline numbers, when the cash flow is down 6.7%??
The riddle for the gap between booked revenue/profit vs. actual operating cash flow can be found on page 48:
". . . the total carrying amount of leased products increased sharply by 19.9% to euro 13,642 million. Adjusted for chagnes in exchange rates, leased products would have risen by 29.9%."
So there's our answer, "revenue" and "profit" is booked to be up by 10%, but leased product inventory is up by 29.9%! In other words, the company is furiously increasing sales to its own leasing arm! When a car is leased, the nominal sale amount is booked as operating "revenue," from which an operating "profit" is caculated. So if the lease underwriting arm is the reason why the car is "sold" at all, and will have to stand ready to take the car back in 2-3 years at much higher than auction price, there's a problem. Inflating current account period "revenue" and "profit" with inevitable write-down to come later is called book cooking.
So there, case closed. I will respect Pat's wishes. It will be very helpful if you can take a read at what I wrote, better yet take a look at the actual annual report in detail, so we do not reopen this can of worms again.
Wow, that's some serious traction in the market place. I'd never have thought more than 10% Camry's (the best selling sedan in America) and 20% of Highlanders (one of the best selling crossovers) are now hybrids. At this rate, the battery price and size are probably going to shrink fast. Sweet! Thanks for the numbers.
ps. the Prius must be the best selling car outside few models of sedans and trucks. Wow, perhaps the next generation Prius III can have standard equipment loaded up the gills thanks to the cost reduction associated with economy of scale.
Also considering the price of Toyota's 3 hybrids is easily higher than the average new car price. Prius and Camry Hybrid can go for $0 incentives in many parts of the country.
Camry usually does 5k a month, Highlander 1500-2000, Prius is up to 15k-20k a month, on average.
Even the price points are closer than most of us would think. Due to lack of massive mfr subsidies, the lease cost of Prius has been at $500/mo and gradually down to $400/mo over the past four years, which makes it at par if not slightly more expensive than typical subsidized C class leases in the comparable model cycle. Camry and Highlander hybrids are more expensive. Before anyone think I'm out of my mind for using lease price instead of purchase price to guage car cost, even the government Bureau of Labor Statistics is well versed in using the least expensive acquisition method to guage the true cost of an item (substitutional effect); e.g. they use house rental cost instead of house purchasing price when caculating housing cost in the consumer price index. . . because for the past half decade or so renting has been less expensive than purchasing.
I said it was palatable. That's pretty generous for someone who is prone to complaining about styling.
I even noticed Bangle cues on new electrical toothbrushes.
Hmm, toothbrush styling, there's a fresh topic and one you don't want to get me started on. You can't buy a brand name manual toothbrush that doesn't have Bangle cues. The only problem is that these designs came out long before Bangle BMWs. The simple popstick handle can only be found on generic toothbrushes such as those from CVS. Let's go straight to the bottom line: Bangle stole styling from toohbrushes.
I must say the Bangle design has been a major influence in 21st century design.
I think BMW sales and branding have influenced automotive design. This will probably torque you off but the Aztek, Pontiac cladding, the "Bangle butt" on Accords and Chrysler products and many odd lamp shapes were around before BMW adopted them in their own manner.
There's really no pleasing you.
I am pleased to say there is. After all, I do like the 3-series coupe and vert, the X5, and I can probably name you at least 20 other vehicles that I like in the manner of styling. It's just that there is a trend to make cars look like cartoons, ya know, busy and exaggerated.
BTW, I'm thinking of getting a grill. Would you guys like to help me pick from this selection?
The toothbrushes that influenced Bangle. The one on the left is our first glimpse of flame surfacing.
Okay, you both have said "case closed" so let's leave this case closed now and forever. If either of you needs to say anything further on this, please take it to email.
Comments
Let me be clear on this issue so we can move foward.
Beyond the fact of what some posters here think on my stance on this matter, one particular in fact, I'm for improving our infrastructure on sustaining self-independence on energy. Hybrid is currently all the rave, and rightfully so.
And let's face it. Toyota is the leader in this hands down right now. I do not contest that, in fact I applaud it.
But I'm just mystified on several issues involving some of the decisions regarding Lexus Hybrids. They all have no purpose whatsoever. I know that is harsh, but the GS450h is really pointless. The RX is now pushed aside by the not-to-less-thriftier 350, and the 600hL is not everything it was promised to be. I'm done with that. We all must agree to disagree before Pat brings out the whip.
But look what Toyota has done with the hybrid systems. A 40+mpg Camry? Who woulda thought. The Prius is the venerable captain here.
This is all to say that I'm for it 100%. But use with a bit of sense to get mileage, not performance. The Prius was never billed as "performance hybrid", yet it gets to 60-mph in 9.5 secs, the class norm.
So who isn't, Doc?
TagMan
Darn, I thought I'd have won . . . I only screwed up one letter/atom in biochemistry. Darn it, the oil guys always win :-)
Uh, oh. Not again?
TagMan
But, you do win today's award for being open-minded... by changing your position on clean diesels!! Truly awesome!!
TagMan
With new ratings, Prius gets EPA 46 combined mpg. Camry gets 34. Very good, but no need to go overboard.
New diesels will be in a similar arena, and some may do even better.
TagMan
What? No iPhone in your pocket?
TagMan
I agree, but then, I wonder how do you deal with "faith" and "truth" regarding the lack of waht could be considered concrete "evidence"?
TagMan
I bought that iPhone for my wife. As for me, as much as I like electronic gadgets, it's hard to beat the elegant ultra-thin easy-to-use flip-phone-style Motorola Razr... I also believe that the Gillette Sensor Excel represents the best shave achieved, and the rest are overkill.
She loves it... and watches YouTube on it!
TagMan
and "after-life"?
TagMan
I will be interested in comparing cars of similar weight to see how the diesels and the hybrids do side-by-side.
TagMan
Well, we can verify all that when the time comes. If so, then it will be an interesting comparo, as will others.
Right now, I'm liking the way diesel fuel cost less than regular! Very nice indeed... especially if it stays that way when my turn comes. And... it's readily available here! Too bad there's no vehicles here yet!
TagMan
Here are some interesting numbers, all using fueleconomy.gov and the new EPA methodology
Camry standard engine:
displacement - 2.4 l
MPG combined - 24
total cu ft - 116 (interior + trunk space)
Camry hybrid:
displacement - 2.4 l
MPG combined - 34 (42% better than std Camry)
total cu ft - 112
MB E350:
displacement - 3.5 l
MPG combined - 19
total cu ft - 111
MB E320 Bluetec:
displacement - 3.0 l
MPG combined - 26 (37% better than E350)
total cu ft - 111
So the Camry actually shows a bigger percentage increase in mpg by going to hybrid than the E gets by going diesel...even though the diesel engine is actually smaller-displacement than the ICE in the E.
Just goes to show that hybrid can in SOME instances achieve pretty impressive results....even ignoring the Prius.
Now, if that E320 were a hybrid diesel... well, you know.
TagMan
. . . and this is the first generation hybrid Camry . . . whereas MB has been honing diesel engine making skills for 100+ years.
And then they'll get around to diesel hybrid, someday.
What's the record for most posts in one forum (day)?
DrFill
You thinking we might have approached a record today?
Even D-Man posted today, IIRC. We haven't heard enough from him lately, IMO.
If we do set a record, and everyone's still on good terms then I guess we've set two records!
... and the forum hasn't been shut down... THREE records!
TagMan
DrFill
Wow what a sigh of relief!
For a second there I thought you actually had some real proof about BMW cooking their books. I am so relieved to find out that you dont have such real evidence except mere conjectures that are applicable to all auto financing businesses and not specifically to BMW.
That's the Löwenbräu song... a German beer... coming from the Doc, of all people!... an appropriate end to this magnificent day!
TagMan
The hype is All-American!
You know this.......man!
DrFill
As to your blithe statement "that are applicable to all auto financing business and not specifically to BMW," well, the difference between book cooking and normal book keeping is exactly in the value and risk factors assigned, isn't it? By your logic, there can be no book cooking until someone gets indicted . . . which kinda puts the cart in front of the horse :-)
Besides, if you really don't have the patience to read through the annual report, and dig up the numbers buried there (besides the rosy picture painted on the first few pages), there are secondary idications of the problem: complaints about earning quality by Dresdner Bank analysts. When you gather up the patience to read the actual annual report in detail (available on www.bmwgroup.com), you will see just how poor the earning quality is. The company has been turning vast amount of cash into an asset class called "leased product inventories," which takes on the fictitious lease "sale" price as inventory value. That's how "profit" is cooked up. Due to the massive difference between residual and real life resale, plus subsidized lease interest rates, BMWUSA has a much higher per centage of cars "sold" through leases than the industry average, so your statement "that are applicable to all auto financing business and not specifically to BMW" doesn't hold water either, because not all auto financing business run numbers that highly fudged. For example, Lexus usually gives residuals that are lower than real life resale, so consumers tend to buy Lexus instead of leasing, up to this point. Dramatic departure from industry average lease-to-sale ratio clearly indicates lease terms not matching real life resale even if you do not have the patience or objectivity to go through real resale numbers analysis.
While I think the iPhone, like the iPod deserves credit for making the "smartphone" more accessible to the average joe (that can afford a $600 phone), I wasn't very impressed with it, and I'm already on AT&T so there's no hassle there. I use the ". , ? () and !" keys on my Nokia E62 constantly, so having to switch from the "keyboard" to the symbols menu every time I needed to end a sentence was already a deal breaker. I also need the Nokia's integrated exchange server support, miniSD slot and removable battery. Aside from that, I'm not big on giving Cupertino $400 of pure profit for a phone thats not even 3G capable (technically neither is the E62, but its a few years old, and was $150) I have yet to buy into any "iHype".
I do find it amusing though that using YouTube or any streaming video on AT&T's data network violated TOS right up until the day the iPhone was launched.
Lexus and Acura do the exact opposite. For some reason they are on a crusade to discourage leasing. At this point in time I can buy an MDX and arrange my own financing at 2.9% interest for 36 months. Going through Honda Financial, I can do an MDX 36 month lease for 6.96% interest which is its lowest base interest rate. Dealers can actually inflate this rate on unsuspecting customers.
Predictably, there has been a substantial build-up in MDX inventory.
Pardon my amnesia but did I not refer to BMW's detailed financials at least a hundred times or so in this forum? :confuse:
BMWUSA has a much higher per centage of cars "sold" through leases than the industry average A lower cash balance?
How on earth does your description above prove that BMW is cookin their books?
You're definitely incorrect on this one point.
Increased leasing does not mean cooked books.. It is true that lease financing may increase the potential of cooked books but it does not mean cooked books. And if BMW was cooking their books with lease financing or inflated residuals then that would be evident on their cash flows.
And guess what? Such evidence does not exist.
In addition a lower cash balance is not indicative of a financial problem especially for an auto firm with one of the healthiest balance sheet in the automobile industy. Also generating vast amounts of cashflow does not contradict having a lower cash balance.Just like the amount of cash a person has in his wallet is not indicative of whether he is poor or rich. Just like a lower cash balance in a wealthy person's savings bank account does not in anyway imply that he is not generating millions in income.
Howard you are correct BMW does provide inflated residuals. But that does not mean in anyway that BMW's high profitability is cooked. Unfudged high profitability and inflated residuals are not necessarily a contradiction.
Pat, I agree I think we all had enough of this discussion. For any masochist who has an intense desire to read these discussions should refer to past luxury lounge/high end luxury car forums posts.
Case closed.
Nothing more to discuss.
In June, they sold 5,530 units, about 12% of total Camry units.
17,756 Prius units.
2,403 Highlander hybrid units, about 21% of total Highlander units.
This sounds like a sales winner comparing to the axed Accord hybrid.
link title
Exactly!!! Here's the BMW annual report:
http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_prod/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/investor_relations/finanzberichte/geschaeftsberichte/2006/popup/_downloads/gb2006_gesamt.pdf
On page 47:
"Operating activities of BMW Group generated . . . 9,980 million in 2006, down by euro 711 million or 6.7% compared to one year earlier."
So how credible are those double-digit profit and revenue increases in the headline numbers, when the cash flow is down 6.7%??
The riddle for the gap between booked revenue/profit vs. actual operating cash flow can be found on page 48:
". . . the total carrying amount of leased products increased sharply by 19.9% to euro 13,642 million. Adjusted for chagnes in exchange rates, leased products would have risen by 29.9%."
So there's our answer, "revenue" and "profit" is booked to be up by 10%, but leased product inventory is up by 29.9%! In other words, the company is furiously increasing sales to its own leasing arm! When a car is leased, the nominal sale amount is booked as operating "revenue," from which an operating "profit" is caculated. So if the lease underwriting arm is the reason why the car is "sold" at all, and will have to stand ready to take the car back in 2-3 years at much higher than auction price, there's a problem. Inflating current account period "revenue" and "profit" with inevitable write-down to come later is called book cooking.
So there, case closed. I will respect Pat's wishes. It will be very helpful if you can take a read at what I wrote, better yet take a look at the actual annual report in detail, so we do not reopen this can of worms again.
ps. the Prius must be the best selling car outside few models of sedans and trucks. Wow, perhaps the next generation Prius III can have standard equipment loaded up the gills thanks to the cost reduction associated with economy of scale.
Total Toyota/Lexus U.S. hybrid units for 1H07 were 146,536, versus total MB U.S. sales, for its entire product line, of 118,240.
Yes, the price points are very different, but one could say that hybrid technology in some ways has as much traction as MB as a company.
Camry usually does 5k a month, Highlander 1500-2000, Prius is up to 15k-20k a month, on average.
DrFill
I said it was palatable. That's pretty generous for someone who is prone to complaining about styling.
I even noticed Bangle cues on new electrical toothbrushes.
Hmm, toothbrush styling, there's a fresh topic and one you don't want to get me started on. You can't buy a brand name manual toothbrush that doesn't have Bangle cues. The only problem is that these designs came out long before Bangle BMWs. The simple popstick handle can only be found on generic toothbrushes such as those from CVS. Let's go straight to the bottom line: Bangle stole styling from toohbrushes.
I must say the Bangle design has been a major influence in 21st century design.
I think BMW sales and branding have influenced automotive design. This will probably torque you off but the Aztek, Pontiac cladding, the "Bangle butt" on Accords and Chrysler products and many odd lamp shapes were around before BMW adopted them in their own manner.
There's really no pleasing you.
I am pleased to say there is. After all, I do like the 3-series coupe and vert, the X5, and I can probably name you at least 20 other vehicles that I like in the manner of styling. It's just that there is a trend to make cars look like cartoons, ya know, busy and exaggerated.
BTW, I'm thinking of getting a grill. Would you guys like to help me pick from this selection?
The toothbrushes that influenced Bangle. The one on the left is our first glimpse of flame surfacing.
Here's the latest JD Power study on hybrids... VERY recent as it was just released within 48 hours...
link title
As brightness said yesterday, the truth is more important than being right or wrong... and I totally agree with that.
TagMan
I'm always (almost
TagMan
Thank you.