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Jeep Liberty Starting and Stalling Problems
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
Post any concerns or problems related to hard starts, no starts, or periodic engine stalling on the Jeep Liberty.
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neutral safety switch
the starter has been replaced twice within the last 6 weeks
the ignition switch
The service manager says that I am getting too much power during start up... Any ideas????
Since the Liberty is only a 2003, I can't imagine any switch inside the vehicle going bad. In the engine compartment, it could several components which might be suspect. The gripe is, too much "juice" at start-up, therefore burning up the starter and or switch. It is simple to conclude there is an electronic short somewhere in the system. All of the "trons" are finding a path of least resistance going directly to the starter. So, I have to question, have all the wires/harness been "ohm'd" out? Any smoke/sparks visible at start-up? Any fuses blown? Any place where the outer shielding of the wires show signs of "bubbling" or discoloration?
If the starter is being fried, then the starter has been placed in a postion as a "fusable link". I venture to say that much of the Liberty's wiring has been put under tremendous strain from over-voltage, that even if its fixed, then unsafe situations in the wire's integrity are almost guaranteed.
The first thing I would tell the maintenance shop is to change out the starter circuit wiring harness and completely rewire the entire vehicle associated with voltage control, alternator, etc.
For all know, it could be a bulkhead connector passing through the firewall, a wire shorting to the firewall itself.
Documentation is the key in this situation!
John
All of the tech's at this dealer have acknowledged that the noise is not normal and is caused when the starter is dis-engaging from the fly wheel.
I love my jeep but this is ridiculous. Any ideas?????? :mad: :sick: :lemon:
Or record the sound and post it or email it to me.
The very next day the engine died while I was driving 70 mph on the freeway again. I noticed the Tach jumped from 2500 rpm to 4000 rpm, down to 1000 rpm back to 4000 rpm, then zero. I could feel the engine struggling to keep running during this event. On the way back to the dealer, it died two times again while I was stopped at traffic lights. Right before it died the Tach always preformed a little dance; up, down, up down, up, then zero.
The dealer has been unable to tell me what's happening, according to them - no error codes, engine electrical diagnostic all good, etc..... Last Sunday, I had to call AAA because it keep dieing a few seconds after cranking. I couldn't keep it from dieing without my foot on the gas. The AAA guy said I had bad gas, so we filled it up with 91+ and it stopped dieing one second after cranking. I was so happy. Unfortunately, my happiness lasted only one day.
Everyday after work this week the engine has died after about five to ten minutes after starting. The last two days I've ran the vehicle in the company parking lot for ten minutes so it won't die on the road. It starts ok, but runs a little rough. After about five minutes, the Tach goes from 600 rpm (Idle) to 5000 rpm (the engine does not rev up) then to zero. the engine dies. I hooked up a diagnostic computer and read a P0320 Ignition/Distributor Engine speed Input circuit malfunction.
(Dealer – No error codes!?)
Where should I start? Spark plugs, plug wires? Distributor wiring?
Thanks - Matt :lemon:
I've got the same symptons in a 2003 Liberty Renegade. It's at 48,*** miles. It has the exact same symptons you describe (bad gas was my very first guess).
I have been driving with it hooked up to a scanner by AutoXray. I've gotten (3) different DTC's; P0340 (camshaft position sensor malfunction); P1299 (vacuum leak); P1391 (intermittent loss of CMP or CKP). From your description, I'm assuming that your vehicle is warmed-up when all the non-sense starts. I have noticed with short trips, and cooler air temps. (say 63 and lower) I have no problems. But, with higher air temps. and engine coolant up to say 210-220, it's impossible to keep her running (I also see all the tach. jumping). Then, all I do is turn the key off, turn it right back on and she's good for another 10 miles. It might do this 4 times in 10 miles or 1 time in 20, all with the hotter temps.
I have driven 20 miles, or so, with the cmp sensor completely unplugged in cooler temps. and gotten perfect drivability. So, I don't think that P0340 DTC is legit.
I have also noticed that communication with my scan tool is lost regularly during all of this. Leading me to believe that it is a thermal intermittent in the PCM. I believe your P0320 DTC supports this (same symptons firing different DTC's).
It stalled last night, and did NOT fire a DTC (that could explain why the dealer didn't see a DTC with your vehicle). If the check engine light was not lit, then no codes fired.
If I'm not mistaken, the PCM is included in the Federally mandated warranty period, which is 8yrs./80,000 miles. So, you may still be covered.
I'm making arrangements to take mine to a local dealer this week. I'll keep you posted.
o.k. then...
It stalled last night, and did NOT fire a DTC (that could explain why the dealer didn't see a DTC with your vehicle). If the check engine light was not lit, then no codes fired."
Interesting, I've been running with an AutoXray connected today too. And the scanner is lossing communications with the Libs computer alot. I can't clear the P0320 error code with the scanner also.
Can you clear error codes with your scanner? The P0320 could be an old error before the crank sensor was replaced.
" I have also noticed that communication with my scan tool is lost regularly during all of this. Leading me to believe that it is a thermal intermittent in the PCM." Same here, am thinking intermittent connection to the PCM. Going to check all the connections this weekend. I think the PCM is turning off the engine because it's confused about the state/status of the engine.
The engine is now dying a few minutes after starting in the morning (about 60F - died twice this morning) and five to ten minutes after starting after work (about 75F - died twice this afternoon. Am loss communications with the PCM also and can't get anymore information.
But the engine temp looked normal before the events.
I'll post what I find.
"If I'm not mistaken, the PCM is included in the Federally mandated warranty period, which is 8yrs./80,000 miles. So, you may still be covered." This would be nice. Am already out $300.00 trying to fix this problem.
Matt
I can clear the DTC's, but the vehicle has to be key on, engine OFF, to do so.
I've had two round trips to work with no signs of any problems (except the broken communication with the scan tool). It's been cool here (high 60's, lo 70's) and relatively short trips, so no surprise. It sounds like your problem is more progressed, can't complete a trip without stalling. Frustrating!
Anyway, I'm setting an appointment with the dealer today (also have to take care of the recall notice for lower ball joints). I'll let you know the results.
o.k. then...
Randy
As my Liberty is sitting @ the dealer having the recall work done, I'm looking @ the service info. on AllData.com. All the DTC's that we listed P0320, P0340, P1391, and P1299 all would come from sensors that share the same 5V ref. input from the PCM. Also, the tach. jumping, P0320, P0340, P1391 all could signify a bad crankshaft position sensor.
tach. jumping - the engine speed is sent to the PCM thru the CKP.
P0320 - NO CRANK REFERENCE SIGNAL AT PCM.
P0340 - NO CAM REFERENCE SIGNAL AT PCM. Could be falsely triggered by bad CKP.
P1391 - INTERMITTENT LOSS OF CMP OR CKP.
Which kinda points at the CKP, but doesn't explain how a dealer has already replaced your CKP and the problem remains.
Leaving one other un-explained problem, being the loss of comm. between PCM and scan tool.
Lot's of words meaning: still don't know what the problem is.
o.k. then...
They just looked at them? Yeah, I think it's a wear related problem and can be seen. But they should be replaced when the Dealer gets the parts. I have not seen the TSB, but I don't think it's optional. They look ok now, because they are what?, one to two years old (your second pair). They may take three years of wear/tear to hit the failure point. Mine were replaced about two weeks ago when I took my Lib in for another problem. I hope they changed or modified the joints so they won't fail three years from now.
But if you take your vehicle to the dealer for scheduled maintenance, they should catch it before it becomes a problem.
Matt
My Libby is also parked at the Dealer. The problem took a big turn for the worst today. Before I began checking the wiring harness this morning, I started the vehicle to see if it would die twice like it has done all this week. It died right on time at 4 minutes 30 seconds after starting. I restarted the engine to see if it would die again in about 30 seconds to three minutes, and of course it did. But this time the Tach did not stop dancing after the engine died. This Tach was bouncing between 0 and 4000 rpms. I also heard a noise coming from the engine, so I didn't turn the key to off, but instead got out and popped the hood to hear the injectors going and a strong smell of gas. I went to the back of the vehicle to listen for the fuel pump (Yes, the fuel filter and pump is in the gas tank – Masked bad language here got my earlier post deleted, sorry.). The fuel pump sounded like it was pumping as fast as it could.
Keep in mind the engine had died a little over a minute ago. My garage quickly filled with the smell of gasoline before I had a chance to check most of the connectors. I turned the Key off and staggered off to breakfast and a few aspirin.
At this point, I think you are right; I have an intermittent thermal problem with the PCM. After the gas dissipated, I was able to start the vehicle and return it the the Dealer. I ran the Libby for about an hour before turning it over to the Dealer, so I also think it's a thermal problem with the PCM.
For the last two days I have made digital videos of these events. The video of this mornings adventure really got the Dealers attention! I presented them a CD with five, ten minute videos documenting my problems. Now that the problem is documented, am sure they will fix it. After viewing the video, we talked about it and the wiring harness and\or the PCM was the majority option. The service manager believed it was a wiring harness problem at the top rear of the engine, but we couldn't see the damaged cables he was looking for.
You are also right about the PCM; 8 years/80,000 miles. They have to replace it for free. I should know if it is the harness or PCM tomorrow. I'll let you know, when they let me know.
Matt :sick:
I love the smell of nepalm, I mean unburned fuel in the morning. That was quite a story. I'm pretty sure a bad CKP sensor can't cause all of that.
I'm also pretty sure that more PCM's get replaced than wiring harnesses.
I drove my 03 away from a dealer after the recall work, because a service rep. didn't want to hear my b.s. PCM story. Which I didn't quite understand, I mean, they'll get paid, regardless. She was talkin' like the dealership would have to front the money for warranty work. Kinda stupid!
Please, let me know what the end result is, as I'm sure I'll be looking at the same repair. Hopefully under warranty.
o.k. then...
Randy
Apparently they indicated I'm fortunate since the extended warranty I purchased with the vehicle covered the cost of a replacement vehicle for the 8 days. It turns out the standard warranty does not cover a replacement vehcle if the Jeep is in the shop for an extended period. :confuse:
"Let's hope you have better luck than I in getting a PCM replacement. The Dealer diagnosed the PCM problem on my 2006 Liberty however it took 6 days to get the PCM module and another 2 days for them to actually flash the module. They complained about network issues with Chrysler."
I called today and asked for a status on my vehicle. I have not received a return call back. If it is the PCM, I know getting a new one from Chrysler will take a minimum of three days. Plus my Dealer is very, very busy, I have never seen the service center packed with so many vehicles, so another day to install and flash.
Am hoping to see my Libby Friday or early next week.
Matt :sick:
My 03' Sport 48,700 miles gave the same codes yesterday and has been running/not running at all, as described in previous entries. Got all three codes P320, P340, and P1391. Replaced the Crank and Cam sensors 2day to know avail still the same problem. Still get the same codes. Will be calling the Dealer 2mro with this info plus all the info on this great site. Hope to get some good news. Hope everything works out for everyone else as well. I will stay in touch. Thanks for all the great info!
Ryan
I will let you know tomorrow if this fixed the problem.
Matt
First know this. Any sensor cam/crank/tps etcc..) that has a reference voltage from the pcm can cause this issue.
these sensors,(ESPECIALLY THE CRANK SENSORS) CAN SHORT OUT INTERNALLY. THIS WILL CAUSE A NO START CONDITION AND A "NO COMMUNICATION" ISSUE WITH THE PCM. This condition has caused numerous unneeded pcm replacements. It gets difficult to diag when its an intermittent problem. sometimes a tech will install the pcm and let the jeep leave. Then when temp is right, the sensor shorts and it all happens again. Often by the time the jeep shows up on the hook the engine has cooled and the short is gone. In this case the tech has nothing to go on. YOU MOST LIKELY WONT HAVE A CODE HERE.
THIS IS HOW I DIAGNOSE THE ISSUE. WHEN THE CONDITION IS PRESENT(NO COMMUNICATION") wITH THE KEY ON, START DISCONNECTING EACH SENSOR THAT HAS A REFERENCE VOLTAGE. START WITH THE CRANK SENSOR. IF YOU SEE THE SCANNER GET COMMUNICATION, THEN YOU FOUND THE SHORTED SENSOR.tHIS CAN BE A PAIN IN THE [non-permissible content removed] IF THE CONDITION IS INTERMITTENT.
PLEASE NOTE: IT IS EXTREMELY RARE THAT THE PCM ITSELF HAS CAUSED THIS CONDITION. 99% OF THE TIME ITS A SENSOR SHORTING OUT, WIPING OUT ALL COMMUNICATION.
ALSO NOTE: i HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS CONDITION ACTUALLY DAMAGE THE PCM. ONCE THE SHORTED SENSOR IS REPLACED, THE PCM IS FINE. THERE IS A RESISTOR IN THE PCM THAT PROTECTS IT FROM THIS.
sOMEONE IN THE FORUM WROTE THAT THE DEALER SAID THAT THE SENSOR SHORTED AND DAMAGED THE PCM. THEY SAID THE GOT A NEW CKP,CMP AND PCM. THATS THE STORY THAT IS USED WHEN THEY REPLACED THE PCM FIRST FOR NOTHING, WHEN IT WAS A SHORTED SENSOR THAT WAS THE PROBLEM ALL ALONG.
IVE SEEN THAT HAPPEN TOO.
I NORMALLY WOULDNT GIVE OUT MY OWN PROCEDURES BUT YOU ALL SEEM FRUSTRATED.
I DONT KNOW WHAT CLIMATE YOU LIVE IN BUT IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. I LIVE IN TORONTO. WE HAVE HOT SUMMERS AND COLD WINTERS, MAYBE THATS WHY IVE SEEN THIS SO MANY TIMES.
GOOD LUCK, LET ME KNOW IF I HELPED YOU OR MADE THINGS MORE CONFUSING.
THANKS j.
"ALSO NOTE: i HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS CONDITION ACTUALLY DAMAGE THE PCM. ONCE THE SHORTED SENSOR IS REPLACED, THE PCM IS FINE. THERE IS A RESISTOR IN THE PCM THAT PROTECTS IT FROM THIS."
I was thinking why didn't Jeep put in a 3 cent resistor or 10 cent zener diode to protect the PCM. The Tech said it was a bad CAM sensor. I don't know if it was shorting or not. The CAM sensor and the PCM does share the same +5 volt source, right? so the lost of communication with the scanner and a shorting CAM sensor does make sense. The PCM was not getting any power. It's good to hear that there is some protection for the PCM. Maybe the PCM was damaged because the CAM sensor has been shorting out for three weeks. My problems got worst over time.
"DONT KNOW WHAT CLIMATE YOU LIVE IN BUT IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. I LIVE IN TORONTO. WE HAVE HOT SUMMERS AND COLD WINTERS, MAYBE THATS WHY IVE SEEN THIS SO MANY TIMES."
I live in Southern California. But I do drive the vehicle to Tahoe every year for a week of skiing.
Question - Could a shorting CAM sensor cause the PCM to feed gas to the engine after the engine has died? The fuel pump, injectors all running. The Tach was bouncing between 0 and 5,000 RPMs. I think on this day the PCM went bad. But I did get it started a few hours later, so ???? I don't know.
Anyway, am happy, for the first time in a little over three weeks the engine did not died on me today. I can tell by the way the engine is running that the problem is fixed.
Matt
Matt
replace with new battery. car will turn over,windows car radio \etc work.gauges do not register. will not crank.checked fuses only radio blown so replaced.what have I done?
thanks
First time poster to this forum. If I'm in the wrong place, please let me know....
The problem I'm experiencing with my Jeep is a little difficult to describe, but I will do my best. Usually, the problem will occur first thing in the morning (and for some reason, Monday seems like the most common day for it to occur). Here's what happens: I start the Jeep and usually wait at least a couple minutes before shifting into overdrive. Then I drive to the end of my driveway, stop, and wait until the coast is clear before pulling onto the main road. Once I pull onto the main road I usually get to about 10-20 mph then the trouble starts...
It's almost like the Jeep tries to shift but stays in neutral. The Jeep starts losing speed, and any attempts to press the gas pedal only increases the RPMS. I can keep pressing the pedal without any acceleration. Then, quite suddenly, it will kick back in gear and work fine. The whole ordeal may only last between 3-7 seconds, but could potentially lead to a very serious accident (I turn on to a high speed road w/a sharp turn).
Talks w/the dealer haven't been very successful. They checked for error codes and it came up clean. They told me to bring it in "when it's happening", but without a regular pattern and happening only 1-2 a week if that, it would be pointless. Any ideas??
Good to hear you're back online. I think I'm right behind you.
With all the talk (and reading at AllData.com) about the crank and cam sensors being so closely related (plus the fact that you can replace both thru Napa for @ $60), I decided to replace both at the same time. I figured if nothing else, it was cheap insurance against the dealer saying the problem had nothing to do with the PCM. The labor to replace them was completely easy. Funny thing is, I've been thru two days of solid driving and haven't seen any signs of stalling. I hope that means the problem is solved.
Anyway, hopefully we can stay away from one another for a while, at least in this forum.
o.k. then...
This morning, Wednesday, they call and say now they're receiving an error code for Cam Sensor which they will replace at no cost to me. That's nice of them but from what I'm reading from the rest of you I fear a recurring experience as I drive away again tonight.
For what it's worth, I'm in upstate NY and the car has endured winters and summers here for the past 4 years and has suddenly experienced this issue.
This is very strange. Why is the Crank sensor and the CAM sensor failing on the 2002 Libery at the same time? They both have the +5 volt ref in common and connect to the PCM on the same connector I think. I ran my Libby for about three weeks with a bad CAM sensor which damaged my PCM according to the Dealer.
Did they tell you the error code number?
Matt
They did not provide me the actual error code. I picked up the car Wednesday evening and so far have driven approximately 30 miles with no problems.... yet. Keeping my fingers crossed.
I have a 2003 Liberty with about 74K miles and the other day it wouldn't start. I thought for sure it was the starter but when the tow truck came to get it, it did start. Like some of you have mentioned, black smoke came out the back and and it wouldn't stay running without giving it serious gas. The dealership replaced the battery connectors and told me I needed new thermostat hoses. This ended up costing a lot of money and now that I have it back it still doesn't start all that great and my instrument panel has some wierd glitches here and there.
Any suggestions? It does have a new battery.
Thanks!
"instrument panel has some weird glitches here and there".
Could you explain what the instrument panel is doing? Does the engine dies or just won't start? Any engine codes?
Matt
I'm off to find appropriate thread to post my other Liberty issues.
- Crankshaft sensor was replaced, didn't help.
- Service manager said all six ignition coils are bad (they expanded for some reason), he hasn't seen that before.
- The coils have been replaced, and it STILL isn't fixed.
Now they want to order a new PCM, doubling my costs from $500 to $1000.
And get this - I have 80,780 miles on it, and knew enough to check if this was covered via the 80,000-mile federal warranty.
It IS!
I called Chrysler to see if they could cut me a break, and the lady was rude. Seemed to delight in telling me I was screwed because I was less than 1000 miles over!
Meanwhile, two yrs ago my Honda had 83,500 miles when the catalytic converter went. It took a little pleading, but they replaced it for FREE.
That's great customer service, and I tell everyone how much I appreciated it (and now you know, too).
We'll see if Chrysler can be as reasonable, as I keep trying. But when their national customer service phone reps go home at 5 pm (wtf?), that's not exactly encouraging.
Meanwhile, should I be questioning whether the PCM really needs to be replaced?
Wow, that PCM is going to cost you @$800.00. All six ignition coils bad? That's more than kind of hard to believe.
Have they checked the "CAM" sensor? Have you been running the vehicle for along time with the Engine dying problem? I damaged my PCM by running my vehicle for three weeks with a bad CAM sensor according to my dealer.
If the Libby dies are about four minutes to six minutes after starting (Engine going into closed loop), have them check the CAM sensor (@$70.00).
Matt
I just sent out a letter to them to see if the $966 that they would have paid in full 800 miles earlier is going to lead them to pay me ANYTHING at all now.
Do they have to? Should they do something if they want to seem reasonable? Yes.
We'll see.
I have a 2002 Jeep Liberty that has $60,000 miles on it and it wont start. It makes a clicking sound when you try to start it. My husband tested the battery and it is low so we are going to replace that but I am sure that is not the problem.
My Liberty is a 2003, V6, automatic, with towing package. I'm the original owner with 67,000 no hassle kilometers on the odometer.
Two days ago my Liberty was parked on the driveway in pretty cold weather (-29c). I went out Friday morning to start it (block heater had not been plugged in), and although it would "turn over", it wouldn't start. After plugging in the block heater for a few hours I still couldn't get it started.
Shortly thereafter I learned that the the dome light had been left on overnight due to a improperly closed rear door (My wife fessed up
Today after talking with a Chrysler mechanic I put the accelerator to the floor and was able to start it. I got black smoke and a really rough idle. Taking my foot off the accelerator caused the engine to die.
I was preparing to arrange for a tow to the dealership this evening when I came across this forum. After reading the posts and theorizing about possible causes, I decided to attempt a PCM reset.
I disconnected the positive terminal on the battery and let it sit this way for over an hour. After an hour I put the key in the ignition and tried to start (with battery still disconnected)... I think this causes/completes a PCM reset. At the same time I also cycled the gear selector through all gears (in the event the problem was safety neutral switch related).
I then reconnected the positive terminal on the battery and was able to start the Liberty on the first attempt (without depressing the accelerator!). Not only did it start... but the idle was much smoother than it had been even before the problem first occurred.
Although I'm not a mechanic... for what it's worth... here's my assessment of what I think was wrong.
I believe a combination of the dome light being left on, along with the cold weather caused a low voltage situation. This led to memory/code corruption in the PCM. (I equate this to what can happen with a desktop computer in a power brown out). Although the sensors (CAM, etc) were trying to communicate with the PCM, the PCM was stuck/hung in a programming loop. Resetting the PCM allowed the module to begin receiving the communications from the sensors.
I'll give it a good test drive tomorrow. If the problem re-occurs and I find myself at the dealership I'll be sure to re-post.
Hopefully someone out there will benefit from my experience before having to replace sensors or a PCM module.
Cheers!
Farout
Thank,
Corey
Rich
I have a 02’ liberty with 40,000 miles on it. About 90% of the time when I come to a stop it wants to stall. It has stalled a few times. It doesn’t matter if it is cold or hot. I noticed that if I put it in neutral before I stop and put it in drive after I am completely stopped it will not act up. Does anyone have any ideas on what this problem is? Thanks Jim
:confuse: