Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Lexus LS 600h/600h L

Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,101
In order to secure my status as "most popular hostess on the planet," I've created this discussion for the LS600.
Read the book, see the movie (coming soon!)

Can't think of more to say, so I'll hand over the mic now...

MODERATOR

Need help navigating? [email protected] - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

Share your vehicle reviews

«134567

Comments

  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    Kirstie, I think this will become a very popular board the next several months. Congratulations!
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 431
    All the Rich & Powerful will buy LS 600h to show their wealth, technology and green commitment.

    Those who fear the Hybrid (Arab Sheikhs and Big Oil-Men) will stick with Benz-S600 and BMW-IL760 since these 2 vehicles consume more fuel.
  • image
    high-resolution pictures


    I'm sorry, but I just can't picture such a big car, well long, saving fuel. But I'll give a point to lexus for thinking of combining battery power and regular engine to boost the performance
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    The car is reeally about 450HP at much better gas mileage rates than comparable cars with power like that. It wasn't built to be a gas miser. If you think that then you've really got this car's mission wrong.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    I am sure it will be in the gas guzzler category at the EPA. It is very unlikely that the car will get 20 MPG combined.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    It'll be what it will be. No Lexus is a gas guzzler though and this car won't be either. But it's purpose is supreme luxury, power and prestige, not econobox gas mileage. What is so hard to understand about that.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    It should be in the same class as a MB S500/S600. They are both gas guzzler rated by the EPA.

    Anyone have the size on the LS600h yet? The LS460 is smaller than the LS430. Both are smaller than the competition MB "S" class. It shows in the sales figures.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    "It should be in the same class as a MB S500/S600. They are both gas guzzler rated by the EPA."

    Why??? Please explain your rationale.

    Anyone have the size on the LS600h yet?

    202" for the LS600HL - same as the LS460L. 198" for the LS600H and the LS460 and both nearly 2" bigger than the LS430.

    It shows in the sales figures

    What shows?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    We should change this title to LS600HL or LS600H and LS600HL. The LS600H is not being sold in the US, so it's really a misnomer as it stands.

    BTW - what ever happened to the flags?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Title change done, thanks. The flags were dropped a few months ago. Personally, I miss them.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    What shows?

    The full size Lexus vehicles are off by at least 50% in sales and the "S" class Mercedes is selling 2 to 1 over the LS series.

    Yes the new Lexus is longer. I was talking about passenger room and trunk space. Both are smaller for the new LS over the LS430. And the LS430 was already smaller than the S500 its main competition. Even the 7 series BMW is outselling the LS Lexus.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Sales slow everytime a new model is due out. Many don't want the last year of an old model and production is cut because of that plus the line is retooled for the new model. Watch the LS sales soar now.

    Lexus announced many months ago that it would stop producing the LS430 earlier than planned because demand for the new car was high and they needed to add capacity for it.

    You couldn't pick a worse comparative - first year of a new model vs last year of an expiring model. It's a given and it'll be the same thing on the next go round of both cars.

    For the year as a whole the LS will easily outsell the 7-series as the LS in the last 3 months of 2006 will blow away 7-series sales.

    The prior LS sacrificed styling for interior space. Now they've gone bolder and sacraficed the interior roominess for styling cues. But I drove both LS models. Plenty of space in the SWB model and the LWB is cavernous.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Plenty of space in the SWB model and the LWB is cavernous.

    The EPA has both the LS460 and LS460 L with the same interior space and the L with a very small trunk. 11 cubic feet is not suitable for any kind of travel. With just 103 cubic feet of interior space it is only one foot bigger than last years Camry. Not what I would consider cavernous. Unless they gave the wrong specifications to the EPA. If the LS460 L beats out the 760 BMW it will not be over trunk space or roomy interior. The BMW has 40% more trunk for luggage and golf clubs. Our LS400 is marginal for trunk space and it is 14 Cubic feet. To each his own.
  • jd14jd14 Posts: 128
    Wow, I just saw this board and realized that ljflx is having to fight a one man battle against a pack of Lexus-hating morons.

    If the EPA says both the 460 and 460 L have the same interior space, then it's an OBVIOUS MISTAKE! The 460 L has about 5 inches of additional rear legroom!

    The trunk space is 18 cubic feet, unless you order rear coolbox or other trunk reducing options. I'm sorry, but I just can't seem to see what you have against this car, and you're fighting a losing battle.

    By the way, the 460 gets 19/27 mpg, which is already better than 20 mpg in combined driving. The 600h L will get better city mileage than highway, so your estimate will be WAY OFF! See for yourself.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/08/31/lexus-ls600h-444bhp-and-29-7-mpg/

    In the same class as the S for gas consumption... I don't think so. :P
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    I'll tell you what - I sat in the cars and I'll judge by my personal experience. You can rely on stats to govern your opinions. Stats are often wrong and obviously yours are. How on earth can you even think a longer wheel base car has the same interior space as it's SWB brother. Don't know about you but I know an obvious mistake when I read one. As well use the real trunk size. The smaller trunk is with an option that most people will pass on so it's not representative and don't penalize Lexus for offering a cool box that others don't offer.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    I may have to go test drive one. Last time we were at El Cajon Lexus. I swore I would never go to another Lexus dealer. I do think they have built good cars. Not sure about the current ones. I know our 1990 is still solid and runs great.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    This is not the right place to be talking about the LS 460...
  • There's been a lot of speculation about what the LS600HL price.will be. Based on the existing LS brochures and LS460 pricing I think it can be reasonably estimated.

    The LS brochure indicates that the LS600HL will have all the LS460L standard features plus the following with their costs as options on the 460L shown where known or estimated where not known:

    Adaptive variable air suspension $ 2,120
    ML audio system 2,530
    Electronic parking assist 1.200
    LED headlamps (Estimated) 1,000
    19" alloy wheels (Estimated based on Mercedes) 1,200
    Smart access card key (Estimated based on Mercedes) 1,100
    Total $ 9,150
    Base price of LS460L 71,000
    Price before Hybrid pkg and AWD pkg $ 80,150

    Hybrid pkg Based on GS450H and RX400H 6,000

    AWD pkg Based on GS450H and RX400H 2,000

    Total Base price $ 88,150

    Add all other available options except
    Exec seating pkg and Touring pkg (redundant) 8,481

    Total with all options except Exec seating pkg $ 96,631

    It will be interesting to see how close this comes to the real thing. I could be totally off-base. It wouldn't be the first time.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I may have to go test drive one. Last time we were at El Cajon Lexus..

    I am sorry, but I live right here in San Diego, and there is NO dealership called El Cajon Lexus.... There are 3 Lex dealers in town - Carlsbad Lexus, Kearny Mesa Lexus, and Bob Baker Lexus...

    And a 1990 LS versus a 2007 LS is like comparing a 1990 S-class versus a 2007 S550 ! Any difference in your opinion ? Even my 1999 LS is no where as smooth, refined and luxurious as the 430, not to even compare to a 460 ! I will say you are comparing apples to oranges, and simply basing your argument on paper stats... Go ahead and stop by any of these dealerships, and if they have an LS on the lot (doubtful) you may actually get to sit in and check out the dimensions. Maybe then you can update your views on this car...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    The LS brochure indicates that the LS600HL will have all the LS460L standard features plus the following with their costs as options on the 460L
    .....

    Total Base price $ 88,150

    Add all other available options except
    Exec seating pkg and Touring pkg (redundant) 8,481

    Total with all options except Exec seating pkg $ 96,631

    It will be interesting to see how close this comes to the real thing. I could be totally off-base. It wouldn't be the first time.


    Good analysis !

    But you need to add a few others not found on any 460 series

    5L motor
    LED hi/lo beams (exclusive to the 600 series)
    leather-stitched dash (exclusive to the 600 series)

    and a few other items Lexus is keeping close to its chest which may be exclusive to the 600 series as well...

    My price forecast is $110K loaded...
  • jd14jd14 Posts: 128
    The LS really covers the whole spectrum, all the way from 61K to 100K+.
    Now bring on the L650 or whatever they're calling it. A V12 Hybrid, wow!!!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    It was Lexus of El Cajon before it was Bob Baker Lexus. I should have said Bob Baker. They are the gangsters I refuse to deal with. I am more concerned with longevity than subtle refinement. With all the high priced electronics these days that seem to have about a 5 year life span it does not give me much comfort. Quite frankly I doubt my wife would go for a new one. She did not care for the looks of the last generation LS and this one is even less attractive.
  • jd14jd14 Posts: 128
    LESS ATTRACTIVE???
    ARE YOU JOKING???
    ARE YOU BLIND???
    What is with you? This is a MAJOR styling jump from the last LS, inside and out.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Um, well, fortunately styling is in the eye of the beholder. Shouting not necessary, we hear ya! :)
  • For the year as a whole the LS will easily outsell the 7-series as the LS in the last 3 months of 2006 will blow away 7-series sales.


    It's possible. Also I should point out, LS 430 yearly sales in the past have exceeded even the new S-class sales, currently. I expect the LS 460 to do the same. But as for LS 600h L, I'm still uncertain what they want the car to be in terms of sales.

    I have posted earlier the first 100 LS 600h L with special features, badging, etc.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Who copied who? Who got it right? I don't really like either one. Sorry just not great looking to me. Don't get me wrong they are not Prius or Aztek ugly by any means.

    image
    image
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    WEll - most find this car a lot better looking and in person it is better looking than in picture. So maybe you needed to add in "to her" at the close of your post 23 for better clarity.

    I find both cas quite attractive with no copying at all.
  • jd14jd14 Posts: 128
    I guess I overreachted earlier, but we just have extremely different viewpoints gagrice. Also, that is a picture of the LS, not real, and a photo of the CLS. Not a fair comparison, although I do agree the CLS looks like the better of the two here. I could get a photo of the LS and a picture of the CLS and which looks better would flip. The LS, as well as all the new L-Finesse designs, looks breathtaking in person(my opinion, yours may differ).
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    I find both cars quite attractive

    In all honesty I do to. I find myself in a strange place. Somewhere between Bio-Willie and the Prius crowd. I have worked hard all my life and am retired. I can afford to drive anything I want. I cannot find anything I want. I would feel guilty with a car like the LS600h. It will in all likelihood get less mileage than the GS450h. GS450h owners are reporting 22 MPG average. If you can drive the LS600h and get the MPG from the article why bother having all that power. If I am driving a Porsche I am not into pulse and glide. I am into back roads with lots of curves and 80-120 MPH acceleration. I don't need to feel green. I have 3 farms with lots of trees. So I am producing more than my share of oxygen. So I guess I will leave all the LS600h cars for you guys that want a car that will go 0-60 in two seconds. I just cannot see how it has any socially redeeming value. Which was my original premise. Is the LS600h a gas saver or a gas guzzler?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    I don't get it. What's the point of putting a picture of a lexus LS460 and a MB CLS together? And then saying "who copied who?". Duh. neither car look like each other. Oh wait yes they do look like one another, they both have 4 wheels and tires and all are round!
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    gagrice - I believe the reason the LS600HL is so late to the party is that it gets a next gen battery. Gas mileage likely will be a lot higher than the GS450H. That LS is going to knock peoples socks off and if it gets 26-28mpg, probably higher in city driving then it's a dream set up, High end power (that's really what the car is about), supreme luxury(reason 1A of what the car is all about), a green car (that's supposed to be its redeeming feature and does double duty as a great marketing value for Lexus as a whole) and great gas mileage (purely for bragging purposes at martini time with your friends). Call it the quadruple play. Now if they could only do something about that trunk size. How about kill the cool box and just put in a portable igloo back there and a $100 coupon to buy ice. That way we have control of the trunk size.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    How's that? The real deal. I still think they follow MB styling. Just my opinion.

    image
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Also I should point out, LS 430 yearly sales in the past have exceeded even the new S-class sales, currently.

    I don't quite get this one. The LS430's sales aren't anywhere near the sales of the new S-Class this year.

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    He means, the LS430 sales in it's best years(2001-2003) at about 35K units per year exceed the projected sales of the new S-Class in it's 1st year(2006). Not really that hard to decipher. Of course Don't know if that's true or not.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Oh, this picture is the "real deal"? What was the 1st picture, "fake"?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    If you say so, I didn't get that from what he wrote. No big deal it was a matterless statement anyway.

    M
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    You did not like me using the LS460 so I gave you the LS600. Looks the same to me. I may be wrong. Both look like Camry's on steroids.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Gagrice - you're all over the map on the styling of the car. It's another MB copy (hardly) a Camry on steroids (certainly not in person), has a Bangle look (thankfully not at all in person), you like the looks of it and the CLS (your post 30) etc etc. I certainly can't decipher what you really think based on contradicting posts you've made unless I'm reading them wrong. All I know is the car looks great up close and looks better in person than any picture of it I've seen.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    My mixed posts are because I have mixed emotions about this car. My original question was about this supposedly green car that is going to be a gas guzzler. How a person that considers them self an environmentalist could accept this car as being environmentally sound. Sorry I wandered off into design comparison. I must have missed my meds.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Well I'm not an enviromentalist and don't know anyone who is. But I know I'd love to have a 450HP car that gets 25-30mpg and all my car nut friends feel the same way. I don't think, in fact I can guarantee you that Lexus didn't have enviromentalists in mind as buyers of the car nor are they building it to get an enviromentalist certification. They're building it for bragging rights and to add stature for their branding/marketing and to compete in the 450HP arena and be cleaner in doing so. You're reading too much into this car as an enviromental car. Toyota built the Prius for that purpose not the LS600HL.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    You are probably correct. Hope you get yours and enjoy it.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I think you can champion the environmental cause and buy this car. The combined hybrid effort mitigates the damage even if the irony of the 600h is like being overweight and drinking diet soda. If hybrids can appeal to those who couldn’t care less about the environment, which is essentially competing with conventional engines, they will go much further. It is necessary to do this if they are to be successful.

    But marketing a sensible product that addresses the total picture is the motive. I’m not convinced bragging rights has much to do with it. That’s a marketing by-product in my opinion and there's a way to go before any bragging can be done. They have to produce hybrids profitably and with considerable volume first.

    Having said that, I would love to drive around in a performance hybrid and I know the early adopters are enthused about them also. But there is an intrique with this group of buyers that doesn't reflect the main market which is the market that has to be conquered.

    I still see Toyota's total hybrid effort as a beta project. We are so early in the game with these cars.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Gas Guzzler is a relative term since most Europeans would consider 90% of American cars gas guzzlers. But surely I can't see how a LS600h will be a "gas-guzzler" when the LS460 is FAR FAR FAR from a gas guzzler, in American terms. 20/27 EPA figures are far from gas guzzler(think of a S600 as a gas guzzler). And yet, the LS600h will have BETTER city EPA figures than the LS460, I would estimate about 25MPG city and probably similar, if not better EPA highway number of probably around 27-30MPG highway. So if the LS600h has EPA figures of let's say 25/29, how does it equal a gas guzzler? I'll believe whatever you say.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    ...soo many supposedly "educated" people keep slamming hybrid technology as having no future, or the mileage not being a great enough improvement over regular to offset the added cost. Well, a educated person would see how long the ICE engine has been around and is still far from perfection. Or how long Diesel's have been around(close to a hundred years) yet for years the technology just stagnated, and not until the last few years have we seen real innovation in diesel engine technology, ie. clean burning diesels. A "edumacated" person would also kinda realize if you're going to slam Hybrid's that are in their infancy, you probably should realize that we wouldn't have Personal Computer's either as only a few decades ago a PC filled up a room, overheated regularly, were hard to use, expensive, and were pretty much useless to mass market consumers. The first days of the PC are where Hybrids are today. The technology is ONLY going to get cheaper, the component's will ONLY work more reliably and coherently, the batteries will ONLY get smaller and more efficent, and the overall hybrid package will ONLY get more fuel efficient with each successive generation. Frankly, I can see a Hybrid Prius hitting the EPA combined figure of 75+MPG before I can see Diesel technology hitting that EPA figure or seeing a Diesel burn as clean as a Hybrid Gas vehicle.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    You can’t compare hybrids to computers, the latter of which revolutionized the workplace and productivity to the point where they are actually public utilities. The significance just isn’t that great. Also, I don’t think there is any way hybrids can be produced as economically as conventional cars with ICE engines. This in addition to the shortcomings of space and weight is a lot of inertia to overcome. Don’t forget, Toyota’s production is limited for a very good reason, that is, they are gauging demand for products that have questionable allure.

    If the product benefits and profits increase to the point where they justify the price, then these cars can take off, but it is no where near this point yet. We can’t possibly look at the current pattern of hybrid sales and say they are a lock for overwhelming success. BTW, I buy my cars, but if I am to get any hybrid other than a Prius I would only lease. There is no way I would want to be holding on to today’s GS 450h or LS 460h in three or four years. Obsolete technology: THIS is the only comparison I would make with computers.

    Actually, I can't wait for the 600h to come out. I finally got to drive the GS 460h at the Taste and was very impressed, but the trunk space is a VERY big problem for me. I’m wondering what improvements in this regard will be made with the 600h because the trunk space in the 460 is not great to begin with, an aspect that is hard to ignore.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    America has been slow to changing its thirst for big hunking SUVs which makes us who we are as Americans.... Back in the early 70s in the Jimmy Carter years when gas was pretty high, Americans changed to buying the econoboxes from Japan, and this launched the Corolla's, Civics, etc of today into our collective psyche.

    As gas remains high and potentially higher due to geo-politics and demand from high growth economies (China and India), hybrid and clean-burning diesels will only become more popular, not less.

    I see the hybrid getting better just like Maxhonda opined. Try to buy a Prius today.... It still commands MSRP, and remains hard to find. A our gas approaches $3/ gallon and higher, the American demand will once again undergo another fundamental shift to high mpg cars and trucks. This change is already in place and is catching on. I have an I-4 car which gets me 25mpg or thereabouts, yet I inherently feel this is not good enough and continue to wonder if I shouldn't buy something even more gas efficient... And that's coming from someone with 2 V-8 powered vehicles...

    The sign of the times....
  • ". . . I can see a Hybrid Prius hitting the EPA combined figure of 75+MPG before I can see . . ."

    All that a hybrid gains you is recovering the energy lost due to braking, aside from running the engine at its optimum speed. All the energy required to overcome wheel friction and air resistance still has to come from the gasoline, so I doubt that you can ever get to anything like 75 mpg at typical driving speeds.

    Of course in a semi-electric vehicle that gets plugged into the electric outlet in your garage you can get much better mpg's, because you are using energy from the electric utility in lieu if gasoline.
  • jd14jd14 Posts: 128
    Although it may seem like Hybrids are the future of the auto industry, they are not. While they may become extremely popular over the next couple of years, all-electric is the future. However, until better systems are developed, Hybrids will be far superior. The best all-electric example I can think of off the top of my head is the Tesla Roadster, which costs $100K, has the performance of a Ferrari(0-60 in 3.6 seconds), and costs pratically nothing to drive around in. The only setback is the 250 mile range, but unless you're going on a roadtrip you could always just charge it up in your garage at night. In time though, I would not be suprised if the range expanded to that of normal car, somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 miles. Price will also be affordable, especially considering that Telsa has already announced a 4 seater on the way for less than $60,000.

    Anyway, that's what's in the future, but Hybrids are what's happening today. I like to think of hybrids as a midpoint on the way to abondoning gas for transportation.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    "As gas remains high and potentially higher due to geo-politics and demand from high growth economies (China and India), hybrid and clean-burning diesels will only become more popular, not less."

    Not sold on sky high oil prices OAC. I think we were in a bubble. Econmically I think the right price for oil is $45-48 a barrel. Throw in GEO-political stuff and add $5-10 a barrel. So I still think we are on the high side of a more normalized oil price.

    I also noted Lexus LS shipments of a tad over 2K so they actually only counted a half month of shipments to match October retail sales. This tells me the plan is to defer the sales a perpetual month until they have a need for them by controlling title transfer to dealers. So another blockbuster earnings quarter for Toyota is coming up. CFO rule number 1 - always defer revenue when you don't need it and always accelerate it when you do and make sure you have the audit trail covered. Toyota and Lexus are in deferral mode right now.

    By the way all these LS boards are driving me crazy. Don't know where to post anymore. Do we really need a navigation system board?? It may take a year to rack up 100 posts on there if the discussion is just that. Any day now I'm expecting a trunk board, an ML board, a rear sheet shade board and a side mirror board - not necessarily in that order.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    That was supposed to be rear seat shade board in my last post. Tongue twister.
This discussion has been closed.