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Lexus LS 600h/600h L

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Comments

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    An S600 is about a second faster.

    That's BIG, especially to someone who is willing to indulge at these prices. I wouldn't be surprised if the LS 600h L doesn't appeal to even one S600 buyer or potential buyer.
  • Let's see what others get. The best is the 760Li rated combined 17mpg by the old rules.

    Under the 2008 EPA rules:
    LS600hL AWD 21mpg
    BMW 760Li RWD 15mpg at best(estimated), LS600hL is about 40% more fuel efficient
    S-class 600 RWD 12mpg at best(estimated), LS600hL is about 75% more fuel efficient

    What is more, "The LS 600h L will also carry a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) rating, emitting nearly 70 percent fewer emissions than the "cleanest" of its competitors."

    Why do people think that the LS600hL is not a big achievement?
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Cyclone4 - Just for your information, I have two neighbors that are off-the-charts wealthy. One is a bonafide multi- billionare (with a b), and the other a multi, multi-millionaire (hundreds of m's).

    BOTH of these gentlemen have taken delivery of the loaded LS460L.

    For gosh sakes, if you like the LS... the LS460L, loaded up with all the goodies, is actually the smartest choice of ANY LS EVER MADE!! It is obvious... even to this Eurocar fan. ;)

    I post this to you with the highest respect, as I would to Len.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The LS460S is already ULEV, and that's nothing to scoff at. Should the LS460L buyer wish he spent a TON more money to go from ULEV to SULEV? It's absurd.

    If someone only cares about SULEV, they can get a Prius or other hybrid... it's no longer a big achievement that should carry a giant price tag.

    The LS460L gas mileage rating is very, very good, and will in fact do better than most of the competition, including the LS600hL as well!!... especially on the highway!!

    It's a no-brainer.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Cyclone,

    I would hardly let the Edmunds review bother me since it is a lone review at this point authored by a guy who is against hybrids from what I've read. I also think anyone thinking the LS600HL is on it's death throes because of this review is jumping to a conclusion that will be proven wrong.

    I did call my dealer to inquire about the LS600HL but forget it. They are taking deposits for year two sales at this point.

    You need to do what you feel is best. If you're not excited about a product you shouldn't buy it. For me there is no risk if I went with it as I lease. If you go that route then figure it's about 15K more than an $82K LS460L over 3 years. I don't lose sleep over $5K a year so I hardly think the car is a financial risk. Likewise the buyers of this car will look at it very similarly IMO and I still see this car being a celebrity hit.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Where did you find the EPA rating for the LS600h and LS460 models? I cannot find the emissions ratings for either car. If the LS600h is rated at a combined 21 MPG it is 25% worse than the CAFE standard. If you buy a Luxury car that will get you from 0-60 in the fastest time, why even consider fuel economy or the environment. Even the GS450h is a gas hog compared to the bigger Camry Hybrid. Living in Luxury is not sound environmentally. I don't care if you are Bill Gates or Al Gore. To think people can buy their way out of over indulgence is crazy. Acting like an LS600hL is somehow environmentally better than an S600 is a joke. Look at all that went into building both cars. And I will bet the Lexus loses the pollution race.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Why do people think that the LS600hL is not a big achievement?

    You can make a small case for the green aspect although I think it is weak if someone is truly environentally conscious. In terms of comparing it to the LS 460, consider the following which comes from the Edmunds report:

    "Truth be told, for those who want a socially responsible luxury car, the LS 600h L isn't even the best choice at the Lexus store. The slightly smaller GS 450h is also a hybrid, but uses a V6 instead of a V8 and consequently gets better fuel economy — an EPA-rated 25 mpg in the city and 28 mpg on the highway. An argument can even be made that the base LS 460 is the "green" LS model. It's simpler to assemble, uses fewer energy-intensive parts, should be easier to recycle at the end of its life, and gets 19 mpg city and 27 mpg highway."

    IMO, to come up short of the LS 460 in this regard and at $43K more is no real accomplishment. Don't be surprised if this aspect alone is the subject of much derision. How ironic and ridiculous is it that you can drive solo in the HOV lanes with the LS 600h L and not a Civic or Corolla?
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    As has been stated, it is MUCH more efficient than any comparable German, and is only MARGINALLY more expensive than a comparably equipped LS, plus adds AWD.

    D-man, 1 second 0-60 is HUGE! :surprise:

    But $30k is also HUGE. And 75% more efficient is HUGE as well. :surprise:

    That the 460 will get somewhere near the same economy is fine, but not necessarily relevant.

    AWD would drop the 460's economy 2-3 MPG, as would the extra 50-60 HP the 600 has. So I don't see them as comparable.

    The LS being the better value is not the point. People don't spend 100k looking for great value. :confuse:

    One test doesn't decide if the 600h is useless. More information is needed. IL did a good job, but there will be other tests.

    There is no 460 AWD to compare. There is no 440HP LS460 either. The 600h is a step up, whether people accept it or not. :blush:

    And a fully loaded LS460L for 100k will not do much better than 21-22 MPG anyway. So at worst it's a wash. And the 600 has more power and AWD.

    A stripped 460 is not comparable to a 600h. Let's keep one foot on Planet Earth.

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    On the Edmunds review they have posted a lot (not all) of the specs. The EPA estimate is there and it is listed at 22 city and 20 highway. BTW, The Car Connection review is more favorable than the Edmunds review. However, the still very disappointing aspect to me is the fuel economy. They got 18 mpg combined. For a lot of people that buy this kind of a vehicle this is not a big deal, but to me it is a BIG deal. A hybrid vehicle should be able to get a lot better gas mileage than this.

    Even though I absolutely love all the technological marvels and incredible comfort features in the LS600HL, the lousy gas mileage is a deal killer for me. As I stated on a previous post, I was willing to compromise on the smaller trunk, but I cannot compromise on the gas mileage issue.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    BTW - looked at from a business standpoint the LS600HL is already a hit for Lexus. It has brought a lot of attention to the car and more so the brand and is part of a bigger image thing. If Tag has two very wealthy neighbors that have dropped $95k on the LS460L it shows you the whole strategy of Lexus to get the eyes of the bigger(est) income group - is working. Looked at even further if Lexus sells it's 2000 LS600HL's easily (they'd proibably sell 3K units with no problem) then they have made 33% of A8 US sales with a car that costs 25-30% more and one that is not lease discounted.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    Len,

    There is no doubt that the Lexus people know what they are doing. There is a good reason why they are building so few LS600HL's. Unfortunately, it looks like I will not own one (at least for this year) that about 5 days ago I thought was 100% certainty that I would. It is difficult to go through these extreme swings.
  • If you called 21 mpg lousy gas mileage for a 5,000lb AWD flagship sedan, then you have to wait for the one using Li-ion battery. :)
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    I understand that the car weighs a lot and I understand that the 21 mpg average is a lot better than competitors (i.e. S600) However, this is just me. It just does not feel right to me to be getting a hybrid and such "low" gas mileage. I was expecting more like 27 on the highway and about 28-30 in the city. I would have settled for a bit less. Again, this is obviously not about being able to afford the extra fuel cost with such an expensive car to begin with. A couple months ago, I actually had some faint hope that it would come equipped with the Lithion Ion battery. That would have been awesome.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    I just informed the salesman at my dealer to cancel my order for the reasons I have stated here. He said that would be no problem but that he wants me to call him in a week to make sure I have not again changed my mind the other way. Once he pulls the order, that is it.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Problem here is Lexus promised a V12 like car with V6 like economy and is delivering V12 equiv with V8 equiv economy. But from what I've read I think all EPA estimates are headed south in 2008 model year because of corrections they are making in the way these estimates are being done.
  • petlpetl Posts: 610
    This review is a little different than the ones I've been reading States side. This person seems to like it. He sums it up this way;

    "It all adds up to make the LS 600h L, the latest iteration of the Lexus LS sedan, probably the best car the world has ever known ... yet again!"... with no consequential weaknesses

    http://www6.autonet.ca/Spotlight/NewModels/story.cfm?story=//Spotlight/NewModels- - /2007/04/22/4102907.html
  • 27 hwy/30 city?! You are asking too much :), especially under the new EPA rules, that is impossible even Lexus uses v6 hybrid system. Maybe LS300hL using I4 hybrid system could do it.

    Eliminating AWD will gain 2mpg, and make it 23mpg. Then using Li-ion battery (twice powerful, half weight vs. NiMH battery) will gain 20~30% FE boost, then a RWD LS600hL might have 28mpg combined you are looking for. :)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Charlie,

    If it's the mileage that is the deal breaker I'd rethink it. Technically if you got 20mpg and drove 12K miles a year vs an anicipated 25 mpg then you are walking from a car because it'll cost you about $7 a week more to drive. I understand the issue may be psychological but I'm a numbers guy so I've got to equate it back to that. The other thing to note is that virtually all other cars will have their mileage calculated differently than in 2007. The 600HL is already under the new method because it's a 2008 car.

    I'm not trying to talk you out of your decision but I've seen the worst business decisions of my life occur because of comparatives of apples to oranges or folks deciding things on good or bad emotions quickly rather than taking a cold longer winded decision approach.
  • watfalletwatfallet Posts: 12
    Charlie makes a good point about apples-to-apples comparisons. For the Lexus LS600hL, I believe the closest other apple is the Lexus LS460L. The latter acheives virtually the same performance and fuel economy (unless you drive city miles heavily) as the former, according to the Edmunds article. Thus, I would submit that in an apples-to-apples comparison, there is no reason to pay the extra $20-25k for the LS600hL unless you want the added technology for technology's sake. Perhaps I am missing something? I'm new to this discussion, but I have read two pages of posts.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    The LS460L is EPA'd on the old method whereas the LS600HL is measured on the new. Chances are the LS460L (nor all other cars) will have as high an estimate in 2008 as they do in 2007. My rule with EPA estimates (2007 and prior) is cut them by 20-25% to get what you are likely to really achieve. But the 2008 estimates supposedly make that adjustment naturally and are much more like what you will realize in the real world. That's why the comparison is apples to oranges.

    Now if you are driving pure unmitigated highway you may do better than EPA. I've gotten as high as 29MPG on stretches of I95 on my LS430 (at 75+mph averages) when driven without back-ups. Good luck finding those conditions in and around major cities though and that's why EPA estimates till now are usually bad as they are taken with those ideal conditions in mind.
  • feverhartfeverhart Posts: 144
    "There is no doubt that the Lexus people know what they are doing. There is a good reason why they are building so few LS600HL's. Unfortunately, it looks like I will not own one (at least for this year) that about 5 days ago I thought was 100% certainty that I would. It is difficult to go through these extreme swings". DITTO My June/July delivery is out.

    But the big one for me is the extremely small trunk. The RAV4 will take care of the 4WD when needed, but for me there is no substitute for adequate trunk space.

    Any ideas on the LS 460 Touring package vs non-Touring? I'm inclined to start searching for Touring model. I'd appreciate your help and expertise on this.

    Thanks
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    As long as you can live with the touring packages limited options it's great. I'd have no problem doing that but still opted for the LS460L with air suspension because my wife wanted some other features not available on the touring package.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    people are getting $25-30k difference between 460 and 600. :mad:

    A loaded 460, with ALL options, and a 600h, with those features STANDARD, plus AWD, maybe 5k apart in price!

    Can we get it togther people? :(

    If someone thinks they'll get 27 MPG out of a 400+ HP car, that could make for one awesome crash back to reality. I don't know many V6 cars that regularly get above 25 MPG. :confuse:

    Lexus should've made the car 460HP (so it's clearly more than Audi's V10, or BMW's V12, saved the AWD for later (Mid-gen facelift?), and went for 25 MPG city. Use cylinder deactivation, whatever. Just get there.

    If you drop 250 lbs, and AWD, you can get to 25MPG. Then everybody's happy. All you can say is it has a small trunk.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Charlie the Greek,

    I'd buy you your favorite drink if I were there in the midwest with you.

    You have gone through an emotional roller coaster... and your best instincts have prevailed... and for that I salute you.

    The LS600hL, as a limited production halo car that will garnish lots of attention to the LS line in general is not a bad marketing idea. But that's the real truth of the car.

    In the future, the potential benefits of this type of car will be more genuinely realized. For now, however, this current model is a stepping stone to that eventual car. And THAT car, which will come one day, is the one you will buy, and you will feel the way you should about it. You will not have the doubts about it as you do regarding this current marketing tool.

    I have appreciated the sincere nature of your posts, and I want to assure you that I believe with every fiber of my being that you have done the right thing. I know lots of ideas can be thrashed around on these forums, but I fully respect the meaningful nature of your situation and your decision.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    My rule with EPA estimates (2007 and prior) is cut them by 20-25% to get what you are likely to really achieve. But the 2008 estimates supposedly make that adjustment naturally and are much more like what you will realize in the real world.

    You are not too far off the mark, although the current thinking is that hybrids will suffer up to a 30% reduction as we move from the '07 to the '08 EPA rating system.

    Obviously that would apply most to the very high mpg-rated vehicles, such as Prius and Honda Civic hybrid, but hybrids are expected to suffer the worst hit overall... and for good reason, of course.

    The current EPA rating system has unintentionally favored the hybrid, but next year's EPA rating system should prove more accurate... let's hope.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    should've made the car 460HP.... Use cylinder deactivation.... drop 250 lbs....

    "Should haves" are not excuses for "doesn't have".

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Doc,

    I'll bet you ANYTHING the next rendition of this car is what everyone hoped THIS one would be! (but this one just ain't so).

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I'd have done it a little differently. Doesn't mean they will not move every one they make.

    The car doesn't NEED anything.

    I'm asking for less to make more. Ya folly?

    They're getting away from their strength, which is less is more, and approaching it from a German point of view. More is more.

    Both can work. I just wouldn't change what I do well to accomodate the competition. Be lighter, more efficient. AWD isn't a selling point to everyone. It is just more weight to a lot of people.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Unless you're Ford, every redesign nets you a better car.

    It'll be more expensive next time too. Cars get better.

    I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying the 600h is a bad car? Why?

    I see the merit in it, I just see the market somewhat differently. It still works for me. I'm just not gangbusters behind it. It's a nice step up.

    DrFill
  • hendjazhendjaz Posts: 155
    And here's the link to the Car Connection review.
    http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Luxury_Cars/2008_Lexus_LS600h.S1- - 83.A12252.html

    All reviews at this time are presumably of the preproduction vehicle(s) tested in Phoenix. Will be interesting to see the real numbers of the production vehicles when they are available for testing/reviews.

    So far the Edmunds review stands alone as the only truly negative review and with the one with the greatest number of significant errors/oversights. The Autoweek and Car Connection reviews are quite positive.

    There is no risk to keeping a deposit down and remain near the front of the line until the production vehicles come out and the prospective owner can test drive and make one's own judgment.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    I did not see where they tested any 0-60 times. They just took what Lexus gave them. They did mention that the mileage would be more like 18 MPG than the estimated 21 MPG. They gave it a kind of review that would not lose a sponsor. This statement leads me to believe that the reviewers did not share Lexus enthusiasm for the LS600h.

    General Manager Bob Carter dubs the "ultimate flagship." Ultimate? One might get good argument from BMW, with its 760 sedan, or Mercedes-Benz, with its CL65 AMG coupe. But there's little doubt, the LS600h will redefine the Lexus brand, moving it up-market and, making it an even more viable alternative to its well-established German competitors.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    It's a first drive, or something. Don't put any weight into that. It's just an impression, not a test.

    DrFill
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    The current EPA rating system has unintentionally favored the hybrid, but next year's EPA rating system should prove more accurate...

    In that case, since the LS600HL is already using the 2008 testing method, its MPG using 2007 testing method (so as to get apples to apples comparison to all other cars, which are still using 2007 method) would be even higher than the 20-25% that lj has mentioned.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    The LS600hL will get only 22 mpg on the highway! IMO, for a hybrid, that sucks! :lemon: Whatever you want to say and twist, I'll bet you right now that the LS460L will do BETTER than that on the highway than that hybrid, even with the '08 more rigid rating system. So save your twisties for next year. Want to bet? :P

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    It is actually rated at 20 mpg not 22 on the highway.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Yes... and that's even worse.

    Cyclone, I hope you've been understanding that I'm not here just throwing grenades. I HONESTLY believe the LS460L is a much wiser and intelligent choice, considering the current specification on the LS600hL. And I truly believe without reservation that the car (LS600hL) is likely to evolve in the future to be one that you would love to own without any second guessing. Again, you have my highest respect.

    TagMan
  • I found your logic is pretty funny, but

    1. LS460L indeed is the best in its class. So it won't be wrong to pick a LS460L.
    2. LS600hL is the class of its own. Like it or not, LS600hL is a showcase and will be there alone for many years to come.
    3. If you really want to compare LS600hL to LS460L for FE, you should "image" a LS460L with full-time AWD.
    4. LS600hL has better performances than LS460L, especially the strong midrange acceleration performance.
    5. LS600hL has many unique features.

    Finally, you should also do some transverse comparisons.
  • ideleidele Posts: 200
    I couldn't agree more. I ignore all those negative comments by people that have not really experienced hybrids. They seem to me to be "hybrid-challenged" I drive a GS450h nearly a year old. It is a performance hybrid giving an unmatched combination of fuel efficiency, extremely low emissions of greenhouse gases and performance where it counts. Incidentally my average mileage since inception settled down after breakin to between 27.8 and 28.1 mpg. currently at 28. I'm looking forward to the arrival of the LS600hL at my dealer with a view towards purchasing one next year.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The 600h is not here to be a value car. It's not supposed to be another LS460. It's a 460L + Hybrid + AWD + Features.

    But.....it is a value, relative to the Germans.

    Saying it'll be a better car 5 years from now is irrrelevant. EVERY car get better every 5 years, unless it's a Ford. :sick:

    You see what you want to see. I see a glass half-full. :)

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    Cyclone, I hope you've been understanding that I'm not here just throwing grenades. I HONESTLY believe the LS460L is a much wiser and intelligent choice, considering the current specification on the LS600hL. And I truly believe without reservation that the car (LS600hL) is likely to evolve in the future to be one that you would love to own without any second guessing. Again, you have my highest respect.

    TagMan,

    I do respect your opinion. Thank you. I will bide my time and see what the 2008 LS460L has to bring. I will probably order it even if it does not come with AWD (and based on what I am hearing, it will not). I am hoping that the 2008 LS460L has the advanced pre-collision system as an option.

    I know that some folks around here think I am nuts because I am cancelling the order for the LS600HL. However, the combination of the low gas mileage, small trunk, and some small question about its performance, has brought about lots of doubt on my part and therefore the decision to cancel. BTW, speaking of performance, I read your post on the other forum and I would not be so fast to reach a conclusion about its 0 to 60 time. I would guess that once a full production model is tested, the LS600HL will be considerably faster than the LS460L.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I found your logic is pretty funny...

    Glad you got a good laugh. Unfortunately, there isn't anything funny about this con job Lexus is pulling on LS buyers. It's a shame, it really is.

    Be aware that I am not pleased with the LS600hL in its present form. I always like the potential of the car, and I always posted that it had the potential to be an exclusive car that would set new world standards. I believe that Lexus should have postponed this current LS600hL, and waited so they didn't end up releasing a car that delivers WORSE gas mileage than its brother, the LS460L, and accelerate SLOWER than its brother, the LS460L, and have a trunk that is a whopping 35% SMALLER than its brother, the LS460L. And to think that someone should pay MORE for this... well, that's why Lexus should have waited to deliver a car that was better, not WORSE than the LS460L.

    This LS600hL is a GIANT disappointment. :sick:

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I would guess that once a full production model is tested, the LS600HL will be considerably faster than the LS460L.

    Depending upon the test, maybe, but even the LS460L has had different results, depending upon who has done the test. We have already seen various numbers thrown around for that car.

    Either way, consider that the DIFFERENCE will not be what it SHOULD have been. And THAT's what bothers me so much about this. There is NO SIGNIFICANT advantage, as there SHOULD have been.

    Congratulations on making a smart (although painful) decision.

    And... I truly hope you fully enjoy your 2008 LS460L. (I'd try to talk you into an S-Class, but that would be way out of line! ;) )

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    I'd try to talk you into an S-Class, but that would be way out of line!

    That would be almost heresy ;)
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    :)
    TM
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,302
    I stated on a post above that the LS600HL is rated 20 mpg on the highway and 22 in the city. Oops! That's not right. It is 22 on the highway and 20 in the city. The fact that it gets only 20 in the city is a surprise. Hybrids typically get better fuel mileage in the city as opposed to the highway.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Thanks cyclone... because it was my post that stated it correctly. But then you "mis-corrected" me, and we all started to use your numbers for a little while.

    What's funny, when you think about it... it makes no darned difference!

    On one of the other forums, brightness was claiming that the city number is the only one that counts. Well... he isn't going to like this news very much... now his city driving argument has gone from bad to worse. :sick:

    Take care, cyclone

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    On the contrary, it doesn't make much difference at all. I have been using 21mpg for city mileage because I thought it was 22/21, so I used the lower one, just to make caculations conservative. Now with 20mpg, we have:

    12,000 / 20 = 600 (gallons)
    12,000 / 12 = 1000 (gallons for S600)
    1000 - 600 = 400 (gallons in difference)
    600 - 400 = 200 (gallons in the fuel budget of a car that would save 400 gallons again as much off an LS600HL)
    12,000 / 200 = 60 (mpg, the fuel economy of such a miser would have to have)

    (Sorry for being pendantic, some of us here appanrently is not into details but very quick at accusing me of "guessing," so I have to show every step of the deductive process).

    In other words, in terms of fuel consumption for given amount of miles to be driven, LS600HL is exactly at the midway point between S600 on one hand, and a super duper fuel miser that delivers 60mpg on the other. AFAIK, there is no production car in the US that can deliver 60mpg. That is the reality. If 21mpg were used for LS600HL instead, that other end point would move out to 85mpg. Sure, that's a little difference, but in reality, the conclusion is the same: the LS600HL saves so much fuel over its S600 competition that in order to save again as much fuel, one would have to stop driving cars altogether, any production car! Think of motorcycles or bicycles :-)

    BTW, it also illustrates the arithmetic quirk of mpg vs. gallons per 1000 miles. The diffrence between 20mpg and 12mpg is so great that it's the same as the difference between 60mpg vs. 20mpg in terms of annual fuel consumption over the same number of miles. In comparison, 20mpg vs. 25mpg is quite minor.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Posted this also on the lux lounge noard:

    Very much at odds with Edmunds take. They got 5.4 0-60 (vs 6.2on the LS460L, though that was likely because of a heavy preprod car), 12.4 0-100 and 14.8 0-110 and find the car equiv to other V12's excluding MB's twin turbo. They also find the car having peerless refinement and clearly rate it head and shoulders beyond the LS460L. Remember this car has added insulation for super quiet performance and has better interior materials than the LS460L plus AWD and a few other trim type things not available on the LS460L as well. Interestingly they registerred not only faster time and performance than the LS460L but also gas mileage that was 50% better. In their driving they only got 13mpg city with the LS460L vs 20mpg in the LS600HL. That's a heck of a difference. Now both are preprod cars so take that with a grain of salt, though it is likely both of those ratings are on the low side because - again - the preprod cars tested look heavier than normal prod-ready cars will be. Both cars, particularly the LS460L per my recollection seem to be heavier to significanty heavier than the actual production ready car weights I read the specs to be. IMO - the LS460L will likely get similar mileage to the LS430 (in the real world). My experience is 17-18 city and 20-21 combined local driving and urban highway. I've gotten as high as 28 in real country driving in the Carolina's with my 2001 car though. But those ideal open road conditions are rarely experienced in my neck of the woods. I'd expect the LS600HL will do better than 20mpg as again it seems heavier than the real production car will be. I won't be surprised to see 22-23mpg real world city/hgwy combinerd mileage out there with the LS460HL. If that's achieved with the weight of this car and it's performance the car will hve matched my expectations afterall.

    Despite all the neg talk here, much of it tied to Edmunds and a reviewer who has a bias against hybrids, I expect this car to be a big hit and be much talked about in a positive light in the press - and Lexus will market that to the hilt.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    First drive

    With so many car companies predicting tough times ahead, Lexus's confidence and enthusiasm for such vehicles and for the future makes a refreshing change. And if their sales teams are smiling, there's no doubt that their customers will be, too.

    The LS600h really could be the machine that changes the world of luxury cars as we know it. And it will do so while the competition is completely unable to respond.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    But it kinda hurts his point, so he wasn't havin' it.

    If 0-60 and quarters were what mattered, MItsubishi would sell 30k Evos a month!

    Many, many buyers have a need for other abilities besides speed.

    20MPG out of a 400+HP uber-sedan is news! This car likes the environment. Many rich environmentalists out thur. ;)

    DrFill
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