Tundra vs the Big 3 Continued III
This topic is a continuation of Topic 2056....
Tundra vs the Big 3 - II. There have been some
discussions of killing off ALL of the "versus"
topics, as a result of consistent violations of the
Participants Agreement requirement for civil
discourse. For the moment please continue these
discussions here.
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
Tundra vs the Big 3 - II. There have been some
discussions of killing off ALL of the "versus"
topics, as a result of consistent violations of the
Participants Agreement requirement for civil
discourse. For the moment please continue these
discussions here.
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
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Comments
- Tim
Harry
Dale Carnegie said to things to avoid in conversation....religion and politics...
Dean
can you say anything besides, "ideological differences"? again, get over it...and TRY to talk trucks. i realize you have nothing else to harp on, but...at least try...
LOL!!!
frankly, i'm surprised this topic survived too. there's no discussion here. the tundra is less truck for more buck. it doesn't belong in a comparison with the big three. it's NOT part of the market. bama/rwell's holy grail - consumer reports - will show us the plummeting reliability numbers at the next eval...discussion over. thanks for playing...time for you to cruise on back and try to beat up on the dakota's, s-10's, rangers, et al...
bco
bco
haha
Ryan
Dean
Ryan
Can you talk trucks?
Can you talk engineering?
Can you just insult and dodge replies?
You could care less about me being an engineer cuz you aren't one. otherwise you would understand.
I never said they don't go undergo torque. They do. But there are three different directions of torque. Crossmembers only hold against one member.
Thats exactly what Bigsnags and myself's discussion was about.
Choosing to play dumb is the done by avoiding the question.
I answered the 'double helix' question, but I scrolled back, and it didn't post!! here goes the last time.
This is what I think ya'll are trying to say. Imagine two frame rails, connected in the middle, for arguments sake, they are connected by one crossmember, tubular, in the center. It looks like an 'I' configuration. twist one frame rail, torquing the member--is that what you are talking about?
If that is the case, then NO, that never happens.
Why, oh, why asks the crowd. BECUUUUUZZZ
there are cross members placed at angles (NOT PERPENDICULAR) thru-out the length of the frame. The real situation has crossmembers front back and middle.
Think of the previous situation when there is only one crossmember. just put two in, think of it as a subsystem of what the entire system does.
below, the +'s are crossmembers
++++
- -
- -
- -
- -
- -
++++
When you rotate one line of -'s (frame rail) out of the page, it would cause BOTH CROSSMEMBERS ( the +'s) to stretch to the left and to the right. Thus, the crossmembers are in TENSION!!!!
Now this is a subset of what the entire frame system does. This is how you stiffen a frame, and keep it from flexing, when one wheel drops down in a hole.
Heres the tough part Robbie the Janitor, pay attention...
coordinates
z ^ up
x left <--
y out of page
In the Situation Bigsnag described, the wheel dropping down, (given my diagram and coordinate system), if the left frame top drops into the page, it causes the top crossmember to bend down, putting it IN TENSION and causing a moment from the right connection point, in the negative z-direction. This causes the back crossmember to bend upward, only slightly in this case, causing the crossmember to be in tension and have a moment in POSITIVE z-direction.
Crossmembers in torsion and in tension. crossmembers behind or in front see very little deflection, dependent upon the frame stiffness.
Remember, torque in the z-direction? WELD SEAMS ON CROSSMEMBERS GO IN THE X-DIRECTION. WHICH DOES NOTHING TO HELP THE LOADING.
Thats the best I can do without a chalkboard, Bigsnag. I hope that covers it, cuz this horse is about dead.
And Robbie the Janitor, show this to your the engineers that use your bathroom, see what they say.
Or challenge it if its wrong and you actually know what you are talking about.
I would love to see that.
Oh, Then he woke up and his Mom told him to get ready for school.
Stay tuned. Robbie reports from recess with his next response!
is that a motion you do often Rwell?
Yikes!
- Tim
as for my "rampage" why don't you reel your latest creation in over there on thread 2168. you know...dodgeram7. i'll give you a 'd' for creativity, an 'a' for initiative, and an 'f' for effort. you didn't even post anything on any of the "dodge ram" threads with your new puppet. funny how you like to bust f150's balls about multiple personalities and yet what are you doing?
silly me - you're doing what you always do. hurling insults and dodging issues. so tell us, what's your answer for post 13. or are the "boeing engineers" (read: guys who sweep the hangars) busy emptying their dust pans?
LOL!!!
bco
BTW: replies to post #13 are welcome (with cdean's permission) from rwell, bama, or dodgeram7, since they're all the same moron.
NO TUXEDOS
NO SPEECHES
The most dependable, long-lasting trucks on the road.
Silverado
Like a rock
Tundra has won how many awards???
So, here is what I think is partly at the heart of this topic. You have the Big 3 automakers, who, arguably have gotten their butts kicked by the Germans and Japanese auto-makers (who now make their vehicles here anyway) in the car industry, and, it seems as if their stronghold in the truck industry may be threatened.
It seems like Toyota is posing a serious threat to that sector. Both Nissan and Toyota have had huge success in the SUV market, but, the Tundra seems like the only Full-Size (arguable Mid-Size) truck to come around to challenge the Fords/Chevys/Dodges.
So, having one of the best reliability records of any company in the world, does the Tundra pose a threat to these other trucks? What features do people on this forum think will cause people to buy the Tundra as opposed to the others? What features on the Tundra are weaker?
Crunch some numbers, do some math, TEST drive these vehicles and give an OBJECTIVE view of what your strengths and weaknesses are with each vehicle. Until you are able to let go of those "prejudiced" viewpoints, your eyes will be closed and you'll choose to excuse any problems or difficulties that occur with what you have and attack even the slightest problems or difficulties others have with their vehicles.
Just for the record... I visited the Silverado Site posted earlier in the previous topic and it was like watching a football game where only one team was playing, and they were congratulating themselves for scoring touchdowns... whoopie. Great site for checking up on issues if you are a Silverado owner. Terrible site for any kind of meaningful dialogue in comparisons.
Trucks?
http://carpoint.msn.com/vip/UsedRelOver/Toyota/Pickup/Used.asp
Not to be taken entirely or as bible, but does bring up a point...what does the Tundra have that Challenges the Big 3?
A very nice, peppy, but small v8 (read: not big enough for big jobs).
A quiet ride.
The Tundra fits a small nitch. Thats why they will only sell 100,000 trucks in a 3.5 million truck market.
domestic fans countered with attacks that the tundra was indeed NOT a full sized truck and that MTTOTY, CR, and JDP don't mean squat until a truck has proved itself over the long haul. case in point: chevy silverado won MTTOTY in '99 and received -90% reliability ratings from CR in '00.
of course, this was where things became exceptionally emotional and the nhtsa board was invaded for research (read: negative publicity); as were the silverado vibration forums here on edmunds and the tundra solutions website.
since then, it's been mud-slinging right and left. very few people are innocent (i know i'm not). i CAN say, however, that the BULK of my posts have had the purpose of 1) pointing out flawed logic or 2) that nobody can claim supreme reliability until that vehicle has proven itself.
now, to answer your question...i'll try not to short change anybody. these are my observations based on test driving both (chevy and tundra) and reading observations of others with firsthand experience.
tundra pros:
1. shorter wheelbase gives better mobility on- and off-road.
2. shorter overall length also permits easier parking and better fit in more garages.
3. quiet, car-like ride with impressive power for a reletively small motor.
4. full-sized bed
tundra cons:
1. limited number of variations (no 3/4 ton or higher).
2. largest motor is the 4.7 L V8 - third best power out of four (chevy 5.3, ford 5.4, dodge 5.2)
3. smallest available back seat (except maybe dodge ram, not sure here) in class
4. worse gas mileage than the bigger, more powerful 5.3L Vortec
5. no locking rear diff option
6. drum brakes
7. just now wrapping up first model year of production (read: bugs not yet worked out)
chevy pros:
1. more powerful/fuel-efficient motor
2. greatest interior space in class
3. best engine in class based on combining gas mileage, horsepower and torque ratings
4. second model year (read: more bugs worked out)
chevy cons:
1. with the bigger, smarter, more powerful truck came bigger bugs in some '99 models - bigger hurdles to overcome with the '00 models - specifically the vibration problem
2. some complain that it's too big - too big to navigate "downtown", parking, garages, etc.
notice, i purposefully did not make reference to specific "bugs" any vehicle may or may not have. reason being: i'm trying to be objective and work under the assumption that all trucks compared are in good working order. o/w no comparison is really necessary if you're comparing lemons. from what i've read here and at the tundra solutions site, you're just as likely to buy a lemon tundra as you are a lemon domestic...
and that, gentlemen, is my nickel for the day...
bco
let's see...it's 4:01 EST, rob's last post was 3:54...should be seeing a post from "bama" any minute now...
bco
LOL
bco
bco
Post 21 of this thread
Selective reading? All the info is there.
I explained. I challenged you to comment.
Your silence speaks very loudly.
Ignorance is deafening.
Don't talk it if you can't back it up, its real obvious.
How 'bout you talk trucks, not bash other peoples'? Is it inferiority that bothers you?
Budlightdude had you're same behavior, and look where it got him. You're on that road.
Post 21,
Toyota's pickup reliability, Not so legendary. your comment?
Trim factor and Mtn Mike,
I had the same transmission problem, they replaced
the hydraulic valve body at 1100 miles in my new
supercrew. As to other problems, maybe you need to
go to f150online.com and read some posts. My new
supercrew was in the shop 21 of the first 60 days I
owned it. They replaced the brakes, bearings, and
finally the entire rear axle assembly. As to
customer satisfaction, the general manager is one
of my neighbors, lives 3 doors down the street from
me, he will not even return my calls or talk to
me. "
This is a good one for those chevy/ford owners "concerned" about the Tundra's differential
you're back to posting articles from complaint boards. c'mon man, we're trying to move forward. is that all you have to say reference post #25?
course, i s'pose everyone could follow toyota's lead and not give someone the option for a locking rear diff. one less thing to go wrong on that perfect truck, eh rob?
bco
bco
Does a frame crossmember experience "torque"?
A simple YES or NO will suffice.
bco
here, all you have to do is click
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?c=Pickups&t=2190&q=13&A=y&f=1
you'd think an engineer would understand.
To all: Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and try to beat you with experience.
at some point, you will look upon yourself as others do....you'd think...
Torque does occur/ rwellbaum2, bco, bigsnag
Torque doesn't occur/ cdean
Sorry Cory! Looks like your losing this one to a jainitor! LOL
Ryan
bco: Robbie has avoided my questions in other topics here at Edmunds too. Robbie tried to get under my skin with a comment insinuating that I did not know mechanics. I admittedly told him that if he was all knowledgeable, I would be perfectly willing to learn some of all that knowledge of mechanics he has. I even asked him specific questions in regard to the type of truck HE OWNS AND DRIVES. I asked for textbook mechanical responses and not sales brochure crap he continues to give everyone here.
What did I get? Avoidance of the questions for about 3 days now so far. He continually dodges the questions because he hasn't any idea how to answer.
Robbie is quick claim some kind of Engineering expertise until he is called on it. Then he shuts up quick and runs in circles with his tail between his legs.
Funny thing is, I really would like to know answers to what I asked him. I have good overall understanding, but would really like to hear his "expert" responses.
its obvious to everyone. if we all just ignore him, maybe he'll get bored and go play with his professional squeegie.
Its going to take a lot of self restraint, especially when its so easy.
ryan
Tim
Kyle
Can ya'll do it?
Ryan