was the guy...also known as Rubluetoo...he has been booted from here due to the toy babys who can't take the truth....he comes to my site from time to time....where the toys babys don't dare to post....they have no mommy to protect them there....
At least with the domestics, it comes down to mostly subjective likes and dislikes. With the Tundra, it is clear that the Tundra just isn't up to par with the full size yet. Not a bad truck, but nothing to kick your heels about either. Maybe if it grows up a bit and offers some optional equipment, while keeping the cost down, it will be considered with the 3 full size.
I am tired of answering to the Tundra folk's drival. Cliffy1 is a salesman. No wonder he gets so defensive. He is tired of going to work and not selling any of them Tundra's.
i went back and re-read my post that offended you. the first part of my post states:
"first, i'm NOT trying to start the "let's go find examples of other trucks' failures" again. i DO think it is important that tundra owners and those considering them for purchase know this. in addition to the two separate incidents posted on the NHTSA board, i found this post on tundra solutions. Under the Airbag Crash Test thread dated, 8/17/00:"
i'm NOT trying to start anything, cliff. i'm NOT bashing on the tundra. i told you where to go find this "out of the blue" post if you want to read for yourself. now, here's the link.
i encourage anyone who is interested in 1) how airbags work or 2) airbag experiences in toyota tundras to read the whole thread. as it turns out, his mechanic says he is not surprised that the airbag did not deploy. the owner isn't sure. he states he will post pics at a later date for everyone to judge for themselves. as i originally stated cliff...i am not passing judgment, just trying to enlighten others.
f150rules states you're a tundra salesman. is that true? if it is, perhaps you have a motivation to aggressively defend the tundra...?
Cliffy1 is a Toyota Salesman in California. He has displayed this kind of defensiveness since I started posting here a few weeks ago. Not much different than the other Tundra owners though. They all get defensive because the domestic truck owners havn't all jumped into a new Tundra and still prefer our domestic trucks over the Tundra. We must be crazy to prefer a bigger, more capable truck at less cost to the Tacoma sized Tundra.
I have made no secret of the fact that I sell and own the Tundra. If you interpreted my reaction as defensive, that is not my problem. It just galls me to see this kind of tripe posted here. Now you tell us that there is much more the story than initially told by your first cut and paste effort including the fact that his mechanic didn't think the airbag should have deployed.
You have proven my point that by posting one out of context story, we don't get the whole story. If we wanted to learn about this, we could go to tundrasolutions but doing things the way you did was inflammatory.
I have been posting in the Town Hall since October of last year. Every couple of months, I come back to the truck topics and try to add to the discussion until such time as a gang of self proclaimed "truth detectors" jump in. Have you people seen the car topic in the Hall? It is a much more civilized discussion without all the bashing that taints the truck topics. Take a look at the ECHO topic sometime.
If you had bothered to check my profile, you would see that I do not live in SoCal. I did many years ago but now live in Alexandria Virginia which is just South of Washington DC.
the rest of the story in that thread was posted during the day yesterday AFTER i made my initial post here (i.e. his mechanic's opinion). YOU have some gall calling my post inflammatory when all i was doing was pointing out a POTENTIAL safety defect in the tundra. the reason it's inflammatory to you is because you sell them and are naturally biased. again, as far as being out of context, i provided my source for those interested in further research. if you are too lazy to go look it up, that's your problem. tundra owners, you have my sincerest apologies for making an honest attempt to help you out.
cliffy, you claim, "Every couple of months, [you] come back to the truck topics and try to add to the discussion until such time as a gang of self proclaimed "truth detectors" jump in."
what a hypocrite. YOU'RE the "truth detector" stirring up the pot by making comments like my post was the "most irresponsible" thing you've seen in awhile. THAT's inflammatory, bud. if you don't like my response, run along back to the car forums, cuz you WON'T be missed here. notice how no one else thinks my post was out of line? you're the ONLY one whining about it, BUD. hmmm...maybe that's cuz they APPRECIATE someone trying to help them out...
Notice how the Tundra owners stopped posting here due to the drivel of late? Perhaps that is why no one else has stepped in to call a spade a spade. As to your "honest attempt to help you out", you have a very inflated sense of self worth.
drivel being posted here has never stopped tundra owners from posting here before. i have no inflated sense of self-worth. you have, for some unknown reason, "fearless tundra defender" tattooed on your forehead...you go...far...away...
All the info is presented in your hidden poist nicely. I know his response. Out of context. You bring up a very valid subject and its not outta context.
As a totally unbiased new F-150 owner -- ;-) -- I read the infamous bco "squashed Tundra/suspect air bags" post carefully and honestly thought he was walking on eggs in his cautious attempt to bring up the point without being inflammatory. Unless you consider bringing attention to that poor Tundra owner's experience in and of itself inflammatory, I don't know how bco could have been any more low key about it. Tell me how he could have done better.
Is there a problem with the Tundra air bags? Time alone will tell. Is it on topic and reasonable to bring up the question? I think so. Just as it would be for any question about the F-150 (and bco's beloved Silverado, as he himself has said).
I know that any mention of a shortcoming in your truck by an competing product owner seems to be inflammatory in intent. But I don't think that was the case here (unless everything bco wrote was sarcastic -- again, I didn't read it that way). Trust me, this time in your zealous reaction to what you obviously perceived as an attack, you are the primary one (how can I say this gently and non-aggressively?) taking things and making things more personal than really necessary.
Sorry, but I just didn't see the need for so much of a vitriolic counter attack (since I didn't see a real attack to be countered).
Had it not been for my challenge, he would have left a big and dangling question. Now that he posted complete information from the other BB site, we now see that there is in fact, much more information. Based on what others opined, there is much doubt as to whether there is any safety problem at all. This is all I was getting at. Without the context of all the available information, you can't draw any conclusions and speculation is scurrilous.
If somebody has a legitimate problem with the Tundra, go ahead and post it. If you check the other topics, you will see that I haunt the Town Hall to help consumers find resolutions to problems. By cutting and pasting a story from another BB, you leave big holes in the debate and I just don't see how that contributes to good dialog.
Because of his first post, all of you began referring to the safety issue. There was no safety issue. Reading the rest of the story confirms this and were it not for my badgering, we would not have seen this and three months from now, you guys would be talking about this mystery "safety" problem the same way I have seen references to the mystery back door opening.
I'm done with this issue. If anybody wants to discuss the merits of the Tundra or any other truck, let's go.
There seems to be a real lack of consideration for people here. I've been quite the last couple of days waiting to see something substantial, and, it seems like everyone here is getting off topic. The point of this discussion is Tundra vs. the BIG3. It is not annoying people and name-calling and doing the "I did this..." or "I didn't do that...". You guys can argue until the cows come home and you'll still be stuck where you first began. Deal with the ISSUES. Deal with the FACTS. Having no slant either way on these trucks I will say, in light of recent events that there is no harm in posting a safety concern about a vehicle, especially when it is emphasized that it is to be informative. However, having said that, you can not deduce anything from it as being "factual" especially since it is essentially a note. Whether it happened or not is not the issue. The issue is the circumstances are unknown, and further, had the SAME circumstances been applied to the other vehicles, we could not determine the results... so why argue the point? I will tell you what I do think of the Tundra now that I have seen it (albeit only for about 5 minutes). It is a good-looking truck. I can see how the BIG3 would not want to call it "full-size" because it really isn't. However, given the specs. for a truck that size, I think it is a VERY good size truck. That is why I think the sales on it are going to increase quite substantially. I look at it much like I look at their Land Cruiser. The Land Cruiser certainly is not as big as a Suburban or Expedition, but, aside from the Hummer, there isn't a better 4x4 out there. It is used all over Africa and for off-roading and has been a top-of-class vehicle pretty much its entire life. Not to say that the Tundra is that good in quality. It DEFINITELY has to prove itself just like the domestics do. However, given Toyotas track record for quality vehicles I'm sure that it won't take too long for the truck to improve. I doubt it will take top honors anytime this year or the next. The Silverado I think is the best truck to get for the buck. One last point I do want to make. I have personally seen many automotive manufacturing plants around the world and have studied them extensively in university and through case studies. Here is what I think the main difference between the BIG3 and Japanese vehicles is. In BIG3 vehicles, you are more likely to get a lot of small difficulties, problems, etc. because of the detrimental psychology that management lays on its work force. In Japanese vehicles, you are more likely to have issues with the design itself and less likely to have problems. The reason why parts in Japanese cars cost more is that there are far fewer of them manufactured... less demand means less supply, simple economics. All the latest equipment that the BIG3 employ has not been successful in producing the type of quality in vehicles that is deserving of the investment. Until management treats its workers with respect, encourages them to find mistakes, and to be proactive and consistent in their responsibilities, they won't punch out better vehicles. Go through automotive journals and look at the top 10 cars for the last 20 years, and the ONLY car to have made it on the list more than once from the BIG3 has been a Crown Victoria. So, the burden of proof is going to be to try to prove that the Tundra is any less reliable or any less of a truck than the others. Time will tell better than anything. For now, compare specs and you quickly see that although they are still VERY good for a truck its size, the Tundra is still in its beginning phases...
I'm hiding this only because I really don't want to revisit old issues but I have no idea what question you are referring to. If you have an honest answer, I'll be happy to address it. Why don't you restate your question instead of proclaiming that I am ignoring you?
"You (f150), Ryan and a few others only hang out to bash Tundras and you do so with impunity. Any time you are challenged, you slide into accusations of defensiveness."
My question was (post 210)
"Man o man how am i bashing the tundra??? Seriously? I am clueless on this one. I really want an answer dont go and hide. If you really want me to bash it i can. "
sure would have been nice if you'd been around awhile back to help us flush out the unsubstantiated, mysterious frame defect in the '00 silverados couple weeks back...guess you must have been "helping consumers" over in the echo forum, eh?
"Had it not been for my challenge..." "I haunt the Town Hall to help consumers find resolutions to problems..." "...were it not for my badgering..."
...talk about your inflated self-worth - get your hip-waders out!
"Based on what others opined, there is much doubt as to whether there is any safety problem at all. This is all I was getting at."
...no, you're whole intent was defending the tundra. "opined"? so NOW you're accepting the OPINIONS of others? because it fits your cause? c'mon cliff, where's your OBJECTIVITY?
"There was no safety issue."
...this MAY be true. hasn't been proven yet. reread those posts and you'll see some of the tundra owners over there are skeptical as well. only time will tell, cliff.
all i can say, is, when i was in the market for a new truck, i'd have been very glad that someone posted info on defective abs in the silverado (isn't interesting how some people can actually admit to flaws in their vehicle?) or potential airbag failure in the tundra. or piston slap in the f-150 for that matter. why? because it educates me and allows me to ask more questions of the dealer and investigate more myself.
was between the Tundra and the F-150 (they look similar and the way I like). I leaned toward the Tundra for the Toyota quality reputation and I still think the Tundras will live up to that reputation. Two things changed my mind. First, the Tundra was going to cost me more for what I wanted. And second, there were no major reliability issues apparent with the Ford.
I found that I could have purchased my exact mix of minimum requirements (2000 XLT Supercab SB flareside, 3.55 rear end, 4.6L V8, CD stereo, bench seat, 16 inch aluminum wheels, OWL tires, steps, and "honeycomb" grill) for under $23,000 + TTL. However, we found all that (except it is a styleside, which we have since grown to prefer) in the Toreador Red we find gorgeous plus running boards, front-side window tinting, gold trim band, running lights, and bed liner in a 1999 conversion still new on the lot for $1,500 less, so we bought that.
Only after we purchased have we come to appreciate the additional space the Ford has over the Toyota. In addition, as is often the case I think, we have come to prefer the appearance of the truck we chose over all others. That is a nice thing in that we aren't second-guessing our decision (and hope we never find cause to do so!).
These days it seems that the Tundra might be had for something closer to the Ford price (but still beyond what I was/am willing to pay). But then the F-150 isn't getting any less spacious nor (we hope, we hope, we hope!) any less reliable. FWIW
Ryan and bco, I quit. I have tried over the last couple of posts to calm thing down but both of you insist on badgering. You are correct that I am not going to respond to your question because it really requires no answer.
Timothydavis just made an interesting post. He was able to communicate why he made his decision to buy the Ford without disparaging the Tundra or alluding to mystery issues. I respect him and his decision. I may disagree with his choice but I respect it. The moment either one of you can impress me with an argument devoid of hyperbole or innuendo, we'll talk again.
didn't Timothydavis just say that the toy was more buck less truck? didn't he also say the toy is styled like the f150? and last he mentioned that he felt reliability was comparable to a domestic truck? i have read these same observations before and it was considered by some as tundra bashing.why the difference?
Say I came into your store looking at a Tundra. I just got done looking at the Silverado and really liked it - what possibly would the Tundra do better?? And don't quit - that's just lame. Those guys will give you every opportunity to post your thoughts, but they (like me) like to challenge your thinking and many times that pisses people off...
kids? yeah, ok. look bud, i was posting perfectly civilly until you decided to blast me. go back a few posts before that one and you'll see my posts telling why i bought what i did. until you get over the fact that i'm trying help folks and not disparage your truck (just as most people here are, ryan included) you're going to walk away offended on a regular basis.
i completely agree with timothydavis and respect his decision also. just as i would expect others to treat me and mine. go back and read my initial airbag post again cliff, and let me know how i could have phrased it in a less "tundra-bashing" way if you will. i seriously was simply trying to help others out. and with that...i'm done. lastly, as long as you keep treating me with the lack of respect you have since i brought the airbag issue up, you'll get it in spades back. drop it, and so will i...
Good question (post 243)- I would like to hear Cliffy's answer. - I bet all he can offer is "the famed Toyota reliability advantage" When Tundra owners get pushed that is the first club out of the bag.
Lets hear it Cliffy--- Talk about important things like HP, MPG, engine choices, payload, towing, bed & cab size (X-cab long bed, reg cab short bed), ability to customize the truck with options from the factory. What new items does the Tundra offer? Anything not available on the F-150, Ram or GM trucks? My God you sell them - if you can't come up with anything except - trust me its a Toyota they are reliable - we can close down the Tundra VS Big 3 topic - the big 3 win.
By the way - I don't count the start up delay or no oil pressure at idle as advantages. If you do go ahead and post them.
Man this is great! All I need is some popcorn and a big soda pop and I am all set.
Never seen the Tundra owners so speechless.When
"Tundra owners get pushed that is the first club out of the bag. " Isn't this the truth?! The only thing the Tundra owners seem to continually come with as a so-called clear advantage to domestic trucks is a mystery quality advantage based on other Toyota model trucks and cars that really havn't been all that either. If Toyota truly was a clear cut quality advantage over the domestics, I would have no problem admitting it. The fact is, Toyota's break and based on the number problems to the total units sold, there is absolutely no quality advantage. Toyota, in comparison to the amount sold to the amount of big 3 sold, may even have more problems reported!
Nah. It just can't be possible that a Tundra may possibly have a safety concern. Ask any Tundra owner. They will tell you. Yeah, right.
Why do I like the Tundra better than a Hyundai Shakerado? This is tough!
How about smoother quieter engine, less wind and road noise, runs on regular without pinging (easily makes up for the 1mpg difference in EPA fuel economy ratings, better handling, more front seat legroom, no Fisher Price plastics in the interior, better acceleration, braking, more rigid frame, rack and pinion steering(that works!) available on the 4X4, better fit and finish, better initial quality (JD Powers award for 2000 full size pickups.
If you want to believe that Hyundai of yours has the same level of quality and reliability as a Tundra - you are going to have a hard sell - except for saps such as DBhull that got stuck with F150s. What a maroon!
Face it boys - your beloved hyundais have been passed up big time. JD Powers ranks Chevy 26th in initial quality - struggling to stay ahead of Hyundai. Maybe in a couple of years they will have more of the major bugs worked out. Until then, I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. Consumer Reports rates it -90% in initial quality. - off their charts. 4wd versions are predicted to be worse (If that is possible!)
The Tundra is in a whole different class. No comparison.
Just want to join all the crazy discussions going on out there and add my two cents. First off, I am currently shopping for a new truck and have no brand loyalty to any of these manufacturers other than the fact my family has always had at least one GM product at all times throughout their lives. Plus the fact, that they own a boat marina with 3 Chevrolet trucks, 1 Ford, and a Nissan all as tow vehicles.
I have been shopping for awhile now and have done tons of research, paying very close attention to product tests, message boards and viewing any complaints current owners have about their vehicles.
First of all, I have seen people with more complaints about their new Chevys more than anyone else out there. I was seriously considering Chevy, but must rethink based on what people are saying about THEIR OWN trucks. Ouch...not good.
Secondly, Dodge was never much of a consideration. I have friends who own the current generation of Dodges, some which are only 2-4 years old. They tend to shudder over any sizable bumps and have very bad interior rattles from the cheap plastic dashes and door panels. Not my idea of a high quality vehicle...sorry Dodge. If I were considering a diesel..maybe a different story as the I6 Cummins Turbo is incredible!
I have to admit my choices have really come down to Ford and Toyota. Ford is being considered primarily for its new full-sized four-door F150 and the beautiful exterior. However, after much research and as long as I am able to get a decent price on it, a 2001 Tundra will be the one for me. This was definitely reaffirmed after test driving all of the vehicles.
The Toyota just had a much more sophisticated engine design vs. the dated 50's style pushrod engines offered by Chevy and Dodge. I would have to say that you would be very pressed to find a smoother more refined engine than Toyotas overhead cam V8. Plus, you cannot deny Toyotas outstanding reliability. In fact, I have spoken with several car wholesalers who can attest to this. They stated that they are never afraid to buy auctioned off Toyotas since it is not unusual to get 200,000 to 300,000 miles out of them. Truly impressive. Unfortunately, I have to take reliability in account, since I don't have the funds to purchase a new vehicle every 3-4 years. Plus to answer the call about being underpowered, Toyota is currently designing a factory supercharger (with full warranty) that should boost power to nearly 400HP!!!
I know you die-hard D, F, and C fans out there will give me crap about this, but there is truly not a quieter, smoother, nor more refined half ton truck out there. Sure I will give up A LITTLE in size to the Big3 and I wont be able to tow 10000 lb trailers but thats not me anyhow. I will typically only tow 4000-6000 lb boats with it, and those rear seat passengers will just have to suffer a little....I know I won't be sitting back there...it will be MY truck after all..HA!
Anyhow, I know this will get you guys all fired up again so go ahead and start posting all of your comebacks. You should really test drive one though (and keep an open mind)...they really are an outstanding truck especially for its FIRST year out! and I definitely agree that a little more competition will make everyone work a little harder to build better trucks...we all win. Keep truckin'.
Way to dodge (no pun intended) the bullet again. Is this how you treat your customers? When your wrong about something you just change subjects and move on like it never happened? I guess that proved i didnt bash the tundra cause you couldnt answer the question.
"How about smoother quieter engine, less wind and road noise, runs on regular without pinging (easily makes up for the 1mpg difference in EPA fuel economy ratings, better handling, more front seat legroom, no Fisher Price plastics in the interior" ...all the same subjective schlep that you always post...mine doesn't ping, gets better gas mileage than yours, handles fine, has more legroom than you can shake a stick at and the Fisher Price comment...grow up...
"better fit and finish, better initial quality (JD Powers award for 2000 full size pickups. If you want to believe that Hyundai of yours has the same level of quality and reliability as a Tundra - you are going to have a hard sell -" ...there's the reliability club...
"except for saps such as DBhull that got stuck with F150s. What a maroon!" ... and the personal attacks...i assume calling somebody a color is a personal attack anyways...
brag while you can bama...we'll see what CR and JD Powers has to say about the 2001 tundras...it won't be good.
dmdbit: Maybe it's my silvery tongue, er ah, fingers that kept me from the "bashing" label? ;-)
Seriously, a whole lot of the offense taken has to do with the way things are said. The "less truck, more buck" slogan, while an accurate summary of my assessment, does not offer anything to discuss. It simply applies a blanket label without reason or room for disagreement.
newtruckbuyer (great post!) offers not only what was important to him in the decision but how the Tundra and others faired in that comparison. An excellent post and truly helpful to others as they can clearly see whether or not the same features are important to them and then use the information accordingly.
bamatundra on the other hand, while also offering good reasons for his choice, still manages to make it sound like junior high silliness with his tacked-on "my truck is better than your truck!" harangue against all the competition. bamatundra, do you realize how little of the reasonable and possibly useful information is lost on all concerned because of your juvenile braggadocio? Edit all the "put downs" out of your last post and see how much better the reaction is (and others, skip that stuff and see that he has some points to make -- you just have to ignore his arrogance).
Finally, being unable to remain completely serious for long, this all reminds me of a story. Three kids were playing and began the time-honored childish game of "my Dad is better than your dad!" The first kid declared suddenly, "My Dad is really fast, he can run a 4 minute mile!" The second kid inevitably responded with, "That's nothing! My Dad runs the 100 yard dash in 10 seconds!" The third kid just calmly replied, "Aw you guys are full of it. My Dad beats both of yours. He works for the County. He gets off work at 4:00 and makes it home by 3:30!!!"
Good question. Here is exactly what I would do. I would start off by asking a series of questions to determine what the guy's buying motives are. If he wants a big back seat for his work crew, I would spend very little time with him. Based on his answers, I would proceed to show him how the Tundra meets his needs.
I never bad mouth the competition. That is the height of unprofessionalism. By pointing out things like the smooth, quite ride (especially on the highway), the one piece frame, 4 piston caliper front brakes, fly by wire throttle control, various comfort features and the like, I would allow the customer to self discover the value. If a person drive the Chevy on a mixed course that includes washboard roads, 65 MPH highway driving and some curves, and then does the same course with the Tundra, the contrast is easy to draw.
If ride quality is not a primary concern, the sale is much more difficult. Reliability is a more difficult thing to quantify. I rarely even discuss it because I don't know what the person's previous experience has been. He may have owned a GM product in the past and had no problems with it. He may have been one of the many with the Toyota head gasket problem. More than likely, he is here because of what he already thinks about Toyota reliability and I really don't need to say anything.
I don't sell everybody a truck. I can't because our truck does not meet everybody's needs. It meets more peoples needs than they realize but few people will walk in with an open mind about that.
Quiet smooth ride sounds like you need a car if you want that. Dont get me wrong it should ride smooth but take in account its a truck, it sits higher its longer has bigger tires so the ride should be rougher.
I will agree with one of your points though the open mind thing.
thanks for an honest, objective answer to swo's question.
personally, i did not notice a difference between the way the tundra and silverado handled/rode on the highway. differences in smooth acceleration, quiet ride, responses to throttle or steering input, or roughness on the road were negligible (in my opinion). did not have the opportunity to take either off-road on the test drive. did hit some railroad tracks with each (closest i could come to a washboard-type road) - again, negligible. overall, ride quality was not a huge issue for me. buying a 4wd truck, i knew i wasn't going to be riding "on air". i have been impressed with the long trips (600+ miles one way) i've taken in my 'rado. very smooth, quiet, comfortable ride. lumbar support is primo! i can get out after a long ride without feeling like i've been stuffed in a suitcase for 9 hours (like i felt after getting out of my old altima).
so it came down to things like gas mileage, available space, power ratings and safety features. in those four categories, i gave the advantage to the chevy. abs, dual second gen airbags (with a disable feature on the passenger airbag in case you have a childseat there) and integrated safety belts are great. crash test ratings favor neither the tundra or the silverado. i've never owned a toyota. i have owned a gmc truck, a honda car and a nissan car in the past. i took good care of all of them. none gave me problems. therefore, reliability was not a major issue for me. if my new truck was going to go bad, i knew it would happen inside the warranty period and that i can be a big enough a**hole to get my way at the service center if need be.
lastly, i make it a personal policy not to buy vehicles in their first model years. witness: both the '99 'rados and the '00 tundras have had problems. i was convinced that the '00 'rados were improved, so i bought one. mine has been flawless to date...
when i bought my 'rado (january 2000) pricing on a comparably equipped tundra wasn't even remotely close. plus, i couldn't order a tundra with only the options i wanted. the local toyota dealership was only willing to sell off their lot. i ordered my 'rado from the factory. it came with only the options i wanted and nothing else. when i got it, it had 12 miles on it. only people that drove it before me was the folks at the factory and the dealership...
I sell these trucks to a couple of basic types of people. The first is the guy who needs a truck for work or play but wishes he could have a Land Cruiser (and could afford one). These are construction supervisors, certain kinds of contractors (remodeling, kitchen and bath guys), plus yuppies who hunt and fish. These guys place a priority on ride and comfort. Ryan's impressions aside, the Tundra has it all over the competition here. It is big enough for light duty hauling and work applications, handles well both on and off road, will tow some of the bigger trailerable boats and trailers.
The comment about the Land Cruisers is very real. These guys want a luxury car but need a bed for various reasons. The Land Cruiser is far and away the best riding off road vehicle built. The Tundra is not far off and if you pay close attention to the details, you will see this.
This first group tend to buy the Limited and load them up. Most want leather and ABS and I can get them.
The next group is the guy who wants or needs a truck but isn't as affluent nor do they care as much about the ride. They are import buyers and distrust domestic quality. They will look at the Silverado and F150 but they also look at used ones to see how they hold up over time. They are generally unimpressed with 100K domestics due to a general loose feeling and the nickel and dime problems. They have owned Toyotas and Hondas and believe the Tundra will hold up over the long haul better.
These guys buy the SR5. I have a harder time with these guys only because there are just too many different equipment configurations. Toyota makes factory ordering difficult for us so I try to keep the customer on something that I can get from our lot or on the ground at another dealer's lot.
I have also noticed that many complaints about the Tundra focus on the salesmen rather than the product. I am well aware that there are too many really bad Toyota salesmen in this world. When shopping for a car or truck, shop for a good salesman and dealership before you get into price. It will make all the difference in the world.
Its not just toyota salesman. I met some really dumb and words i wont say chevy salesman. They didnt know the difference between a bucket and bench seat. I draw the line there.
Factory ordering was the main reason i bought my silverado. I didnt want it sitting on the lot and people driving it.
Ok whats this Ryan's Impressions aside cliff??? I know you wont answer it but im still gonna ask. What are my impressions i would like to know. Dont go hide in the bush either. Cant answer a simple question obviously its simple if you know my impressions.
can i ask you this? i stated my impressions after test driving both vehicles. can you tell me why it is that you have the authority to cast my opinion aside as null and void? here again, you're making yourself out to be the "truth detector" that you detest so much. you're a biased hypocrite cliff. few if any people are going to give you any respect around here until you can prove that you too have an open mind.
obviously, there is something i've done to make you want to trash everything i say. and that's fine. but have the decency to own up to things you say. all you do is throw a punch and then run for cover. i make a civil post and you just cast it aside...and you want to talk about professionalism? please...
Relax man. I didn't say your impressions were not valid. Your experiences just don't match the customers I see that also have driven both. That is the only point I was making by saying you impressions aside. Don't fixate on that point anyway. Read that post again and the one where I respond to a question of how I handle customers who ask me to compare the trucks.
fair 'nuff. the way you wrote it sounded as if you didn't give a rip about my opionion. i have no comment one way or the other about how you deal with customers who ask you why your truck is better than the domestics. i would prob'ly react and make the same claims you do. i've said this before, and i'll say it again...i'm glad toyota has put the tundra on the market. when they get the "first model year bugs" worked out and when it grows up and becomes a true full-sized truck (perhaps before, who knows) it's going to force domestic truck makers to raise their own standards. that's the beauty of competition. we, the consumers, benefit.
Well, I've waited a while to do this, and I won't make it long like most of my other posts. I test drove a Silverado, RAM, F150 and Tacoma over the past couple of weeks and didn't want to make any "real world" comments until I completed DRIVING them all. I had to go to a couple of the dealerships more than once because I could not test drive the first time because of my schedule and only had time to look. My impressions of the Silverado declined as the interior was pretty cheap looking. The Dodge wasn't that bad inside but the stereo looked like crap and it had a flimsy gear-shifter (auto). But, it lacked any kind of complexity although I really liked the storage space between the seats for small laptop, cell phone, etc. Ford didn't impress me... plainorama. Toyota had it together inside the best out of the bunch, but, not fancy at all, pretty plain. On the road the Chevy and an annoying squeak and I asked the salesman about it and I have to tell you that he told me the dumbest thing I've heard out of a salesman to date... "It will go away when the vehicle has been worked in". WHAT? I told him that is highly unlikely and he made matters worse by saying that if they find out where it is coming from it could be fixed but if not that I wouldn't even notice it after a while. Enough said there. Out of the 4 trucks it was not the most agile, although it had a better turning circle than I expeceted on such a long truck. The Dodge was actually pretty impressive and seemed to have more punch but had noisy tires. It handled well, but, not fantastic but had something about it that was appealing... maybe the sound of the exhaust. The Ford was larger than I thought just by looking at it. Out of all the trucks, it seemed to have a good balance of ride comfort in terms of seating, but, really bounced a lot when driven. Performance was average but interior was roomy. Toyota definitely felt the most nimble and sporty of the bunch. Based purely on what I've seen without statistics in gas mileage or horsepower, etc. this truck suited me the best. The ride was good, handling was best of the bunch without question. My only complaint aside from the price difference is the rather simple interior design. But, the rest were not that great either. Just my $.02. For the record, before I test drove the trucks I was leaning more to the Chevy because of towing, hauling, etc.
Peace. It seems we actually agree on a lot. I think the one thing we all suffer from here is the inability to hear the way things are said. Tone of voice and inflection can make all the difference. When commenting on the Tundra ride, I didn't want to just make a straight contradiction of your impressions and I tried to acknowledge that you had a different opinion than most of my customers. It was not intended as a slight.
I do agree the Chevy and the Tundra were both very close in ride, smoothness, and handling...the Chevy is definitely an excellent product. Also, I don't believe in purchasing a product the first year out, since often it does take awhile to "iron out all the bugs". But in MY mind the Tundra won out due partially to design. This is a highly modern engine design unlike most of the domestics...dual overhead cams, throttle by wire, etc. Plus, although it is a first model year, I actually read very, very few complaints from owners on the message boards, unlike many of the domestics which have been refining their designs since the 50s and before. Sure there aren't many Tundra owners out there yet, but still says alot about a first year truck.
In rebuttal of ryanbabs post of should ride like a truck. Please tell me what you prefer then...the ride of a '72 Chevy or the ride of a 00 Chevy. The same point can be used against you. I doubt very much that you prefer the older ride. If a manufacturer can design a vehicle that can tow 7200lbs, has a payload of 2000lbs and still rides better than alot of cars then that is called excellent design!
By the way..anyone know of any good dealers in Texas, Ark, La, Okla. I have no problem traveling to get what I want. Please let me know.
Post 254 is by far the best post I have seen you make. If you and other Tundra owners posted this way each time, I might even give up the fun of blasting away at Tundra owners.
I agree with bco and most of why he bought his Silverado, only for my Ford. I think the Tundra and the Silverado have a better ride than the F150. My F150 is a little stiff, but not so much to make it uncomfortable, even on a long trip. One thing that comes at a disadvantage with a more comfortable ride is a sacrifice in hauling, towing, etc. The softer suspension needed to make a truck more comfortable, takes away from some of it's truck like capabilities, even if only minutely so. That was something I was not in preference to give up, but that is just my preference.
If you can continue going on your post 254 in saying that the Tundra doesn't fit everyones needs, then I can respect that. An F150 doesn't fit everyones needs either, else everyone would drive one. What I will argue with you till the cows come home about is this higher quality and reliability thing. Just because it has a Toyota nameplate doesn't make it a better built truck. They all break, you even admitted it yourself with the head gasket problem. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge all have their similar quirks that happen from time to time. Doesn't mean that everyone or even a great percentage of trucks bought will have that problem though. The F150 has gotten somewhat of a reputation for piston slap. Truth known, piston slap only affected roughly 2% of the 5.4l trucks sold. That is not all that significant in comparison to the numbers sold and Ford did make everyones trucks right again, and they redesigned the truck to eliminate that small problem. Should I not have bought a Ford after hearing of this problem blown way out of proportion? Not in my opinion. The piston slap problem is no worse or better than Silverado or Tundra vibrations, or Dodge brakes, etc.
You buy what you like and fits your needs best. Even if the Toyota was deemed the most reliable truck made, which I don't think someone could convince me of, I still would not have bought one because it did not fit my needs and likes. Tundra owners say that domestic truck owners over-emphasize the size difference. To me it is very important. I haul a lot of stuff in my truck as well as tow close to the limits of the truck very regularly. Even the mere difference in bed depth and interior cab room, although not drastic, it is enough not to fit my need. These things are all I have ever said about the Tundra. I did not start the bashing rampage and it is not my sole desire to only come here and bash the Tundra, but I will defend my choices and the reasons for my choices, same as the Tundra owners. Your subjective opinions in which truck is best are no different or less important than a Tundra owners or any other make truck.
I would love to be able to talk trucks constructively and civilly. I have tried to join others who have taken the first step, like Ryan and BCO. It seems like every time we do, somebody like bamatundra goes flying off the handle slamming domestic trucks with a bunch of garbage. In this case, you got all defensive, when actually, someone was trying to be civil and helpful. I can see why BCO got upset.
If you want to omit the crap and start contributing as you say you do, then lets start here and be done with the nonsense, shall we?
Comments
- Tim
http://www.teleweb.net/mgdvhman/
I am tired of answering to the Tundra folk's drival. Cliffy1 is a salesman. No wonder he gets so defensive. He is tired of going to work and not selling any of them Tundra's.
i went back and re-read my post that offended you. the first part of my post states:
"first, i'm NOT trying to start the "let's go find
examples of other trucks' failures" again. i DO
think it is important that tundra owners and those
considering them for purchase know this. in
addition to the two separate incidents posted on
the NHTSA board, i found this post on tundra
solutions. Under the Airbag Crash Test thread
dated, 8/17/00:"
i'm NOT trying to start anything, cliff. i'm NOT
bashing on the tundra. i told you where to go find this "out of the blue" post if you want to read for yourself. now, here's the link.
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000968.html
i encourage anyone who is interested in 1) how airbags work or 2) airbag experiences in toyota tundras to read the whole thread. as it turns out, his mechanic says he is not surprised that the airbag did not deploy. the owner isn't sure. he states he will post pics at a later date for everyone to judge for themselves. as i originally stated cliff...i am not passing judgment, just trying to enlighten others.
f150rules states you're a tundra salesman. is that true? if it is, perhaps you have a motivation to aggressively defend the tundra...?
bco
We must be crazy to prefer a bigger, more capable truck at less cost to the Tacoma sized Tundra.
You have proven my point that by posting one out of context story, we don't get the whole story. If we wanted to learn about this, we could go to tundrasolutions but doing things the way you did was inflammatory.
If you had bothered to check my profile, you would see that I do not live in SoCal. I did many years ago but now live in Alexandria Virginia which is just South of Washington DC.
cliffy, you claim,
"Every couple of months, [you] come back to the truck topics and try to add to the discussion until such time as a gang of self proclaimed "truth detectors" jump in."
what a hypocrite. YOU'RE the "truth detector" stirring up the pot by making comments like my post was the "most irresponsible" thing you've seen in awhile. THAT's inflammatory, bud. if you don't like my response, run along back to the car forums, cuz you WON'T be missed here. notice how no one else thinks my post was out of line? you're the ONLY one whining about it, BUD. hmmm...maybe that's cuz they APPRECIATE someone trying to help them out...
bco
help you out", you have a very inflated sense of self worth.
here's the info you requested...
bco
Ryan
Ryan
Is there a problem with the Tundra air bags? Time alone will tell. Is it on topic and reasonable to bring up the question? I think so. Just as it would be for any question about the F-150 (and bco's beloved Silverado, as he himself has said).
I know that any mention of a shortcoming in your truck by an competing product owner seems to be inflammatory in intent. But I don't think that was the case here (unless everything bco wrote was sarcastic -- again, I didn't read it that way). Trust me, this time in your zealous reaction to what you obviously perceived as an attack, you are the primary one (how can I say this gently and non-aggressively?) taking things and making things more personal than really necessary.
Sorry, but I just didn't see the need for so much of a vitriolic counter attack (since I didn't see a real attack to be countered).
bco
If somebody has a legitimate problem with the Tundra, go ahead and post it. If you check the other topics, you will see that I haunt the Town Hall to help consumers find resolutions to problems. By cutting and pasting a story from another BB, you leave big holes in the debate and I just don't see how that contributes to good dialog.
Because of his first post, all of you began referring to the safety issue. There was no safety issue. Reading the rest of the story confirms this and were it not for my badgering, we would not have seen this and three months from now, you guys would be talking about this mystery "safety" problem the same way I have seen references to the mystery back door opening.
I'm done with this issue. If anybody wants to discuss the merits of the Tundra or any other truck, let's go.
HMM maybe cause i havent done what he accused me of???
Ryan
You guys can argue until the cows come home and you'll still be stuck where you first began. Deal with the ISSUES. Deal with the FACTS. Having no slant either way on these trucks I will say, in light of recent events that there is no harm in posting a safety concern about a vehicle, especially when it is emphasized that it is to be informative. However, having said that, you can not deduce anything from it as being "factual" especially since it is essentially a note. Whether it happened or not is not the issue. The issue is the circumstances are unknown, and further, had the SAME circumstances been applied to the other vehicles, we could not determine the results... so why argue the point?
I will tell you what I do think of the Tundra now that I have seen it (albeit only for about 5 minutes). It is a good-looking truck. I can see how the BIG3 would not want to call it "full-size" because it really isn't. However, given the specs. for a truck that size, I think it is a VERY good size truck. That is why I think the sales on it are going to increase quite substantially.
I look at it much like I look at their Land Cruiser. The Land Cruiser certainly is not as big as a Suburban or Expedition, but, aside from the Hummer, there isn't a better 4x4 out there. It is used all over Africa and for off-roading and has been a top-of-class vehicle pretty much its entire life.
Not to say that the Tundra is that good in quality. It DEFINITELY has to prove itself just like the domestics do. However, given Toyotas track record for quality vehicles I'm sure that it won't take too long for the truck to improve. I doubt it will take top honors anytime this year or the next. The Silverado I think is the best truck to get for the buck.
One last point I do want to make. I have personally seen many automotive manufacturing plants around the world and have studied them extensively in university and through case studies. Here is what I think the main difference between the BIG3 and Japanese vehicles is. In BIG3 vehicles, you are more likely to get a lot of small difficulties, problems, etc. because of the detrimental psychology that management lays on its work force. In Japanese vehicles, you are more likely to have issues with the design itself and less likely to have problems. The reason why parts in Japanese cars cost more is that there are far fewer of them manufactured... less demand means less supply, simple economics. All the latest equipment that the BIG3 employ has not been successful in producing the type of quality in vehicles that is deserving of the investment. Until management treats its workers with respect, encourages them to find mistakes, and to be proactive and consistent in their responsibilities, they won't punch out better vehicles. Go through automotive journals and look at the top 10 cars for the last 20 years, and the ONLY car to have made it on the list more than once from the BIG3 has been a Crown Victoria. So, the burden of proof is going to be to try to prove that the Tundra is any less reliable or any less of a truck than the others. Time will tell better than anything. For now, compare specs and you quickly see that although they are still VERY good for a truck its size, the Tundra is still in its beginning phases...
Tundras and you do so with impunity. Any time you
are challenged, you slide into accusations of
defensiveness."
My question was (post 210)
"Man o man how am i bashing the tundra???
Seriously? I am clueless on this one. I really
want an answer dont go and hide. If you really
want me to bash it i can. "
Ryan
from your post, #209:
"You, Ryan and a few others only hang out to bash Tundras and you do so with impunity."
ryan's post, #210
"Man o man how am i bashing the tundra??? Seriously? I am clueless on this one. I really
want an answer dont go and hide."
ryan's post, #211
"I really wanna know how i bash the tundra."
ryan's post, #229
"Why no response to my post??? Avoiding the question? Ill restate how have i bashed the
tundra?"
ryan's post, #234
"Ignores me again haha
HMM maybe cause i havent done what he accused me of???"
"Had it not been for my challenge..."
"I haunt the Town Hall to help consumers find resolutions to problems..."
"...were it not for my badgering..."
...talk about your inflated self-worth - get your hip-waders out!
"Based on what others opined, there is
much doubt as to whether there is any safety
problem at all. This is all I was getting at."
...no, you're whole intent was defending the tundra. "opined"? so NOW you're accepting the OPINIONS of others? because it fits your cause? c'mon cliff, where's your OBJECTIVITY?
"There was no safety issue."
...this MAY be true. hasn't been proven yet. reread those posts and you'll see some of the tundra owners over there are skeptical as well. only time will tell, cliff.
all i can say, is, when i was in the market for a new truck, i'd have been very glad that someone posted info on defective abs in the silverado (isn't interesting how some people can actually admit to flaws in their vehicle?) or potential airbag failure in the tundra. or piston slap in the f-150 for that matter. why? because it educates me and allows me to ask more questions of the dealer and investigate more myself.
bco
I found that I could have purchased my exact mix of minimum requirements (2000 XLT Supercab SB flareside, 3.55 rear end, 4.6L V8, CD stereo, bench seat, 16 inch aluminum wheels, OWL tires, steps, and "honeycomb" grill) for under $23,000 + TTL. However, we found all that (except it is a styleside, which we have since grown to prefer) in the Toreador Red we find gorgeous plus running boards, front-side window tinting, gold trim band, running lights, and bed liner in a 1999 conversion still new on the lot for $1,500 less, so we bought that.
Only after we purchased have we come to appreciate the additional space the Ford has over the Toyota. In addition, as is often the case I think, we have come to prefer the appearance of the truck we chose over all others. That is a nice thing in that we aren't second-guessing our decision (and hope we never find cause to do so!).
These days it seems that the Tundra might be had for something closer to the Ford price (but still beyond what I was/am willing to pay). But then the F-150 isn't getting any less spacious nor (we hope, we hope, we hope!) any less reliable. FWIW
Timothydavis just made an interesting post. He was able to communicate why he made his decision to buy the Ford without disparaging the Tundra or alluding to mystery issues. I respect him and his decision. I may disagree with his choice but I respect it. The moment either one of you can impress me with an argument devoid of hyperbole or innuendo, we'll talk again.
i completely agree with timothydavis and respect his decision also. just as i would expect others to treat me and mine. go back and read my initial airbag post again cliff, and let me know how i could have phrased it in a less "tundra-bashing" way if you will. i seriously was simply trying to help others out. and with that...i'm done. lastly, as long as you keep treating me with the lack of respect you have since i brought the airbag issue up, you'll get it in spades back. drop it, and so will i...
bco
Lets hear it Cliffy--- Talk about important things like
HP, MPG, engine choices, payload, towing, bed & cab size (X-cab long bed, reg cab short bed), ability to customize the truck with options from the factory. What new items does the Tundra offer? Anything not available on the F-150, Ram or GM trucks? My God you sell them - if you can't come up with anything except - trust me its a Toyota they are reliable - we can close down the Tundra VS Big 3 topic - the big 3 win.
By the way - I don't count the start up delay or no oil pressure at idle as advantages. If you do go ahead and post them.
Never seen the Tundra owners so speechless.When
"Tundra owners get pushed that is the first club out of the bag. "
Isn't this the truth?! The only thing the Tundra owners seem to continually come with as a so-called clear advantage to domestic trucks is a mystery quality advantage based on other Toyota model trucks and cars that really havn't been all that either. If Toyota truly was a clear cut quality advantage over the domestics, I would have no problem admitting it. The fact is, Toyota's break and based on the number problems to the total units sold, there is absolutely no quality advantage. Toyota, in comparison to the amount sold to the amount of big 3 sold, may even have more problems reported!
Nah. It just can't be possible that a Tundra may possibly have a safety concern. Ask any Tundra owner. They will tell you. Yeah, right.
How about smoother quieter engine, less wind and road noise, runs on regular without pinging (easily makes up for the 1mpg difference in EPA fuel economy ratings, better handling, more front seat legroom, no Fisher Price plastics in the interior, better acceleration, braking, more rigid frame, rack and pinion steering(that works!) available on the 4X4, better fit and finish, better initial quality (JD Powers award for 2000 full size pickups.
If you want to believe that Hyundai of yours has the same level of quality and reliability as a Tundra - you are going to have a hard sell - except for saps such as DBhull that got stuck with F150s. What a maroon!
Face it boys - your beloved hyundais have been passed up big time. JD Powers ranks Chevy 26th in initial quality - struggling to stay ahead of Hyundai. Maybe in a couple of years they will have more of the major bugs worked out. Until then, I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. Consumer Reports rates it -90% in initial quality. - off their charts. 4wd versions are predicted to be worse (If that is possible!)
The Tundra is in a whole different class. No comparison.
I have been shopping for awhile now and have done tons of research, paying very close attention to product tests, message boards and viewing any complaints current owners have about their vehicles.
First of all, I have seen people with more complaints about their new Chevys more than anyone else out there. I was seriously considering Chevy, but must rethink based on what people are saying about THEIR OWN trucks. Ouch...not good.
Secondly, Dodge was never much of a consideration. I have friends who own the current generation of Dodges, some which are only 2-4 years old. They tend to shudder over any sizable bumps and have very bad interior rattles from the cheap plastic dashes and door panels. Not my idea of a high quality vehicle...sorry Dodge. If I were considering a diesel..maybe a different story as the I6 Cummins Turbo is incredible!
I have to admit my choices have really come down to Ford and Toyota. Ford is being considered primarily for its new full-sized four-door F150 and the beautiful exterior. However, after much research and as long as I am able to get a decent price on it, a 2001 Tundra will be the one for me. This was definitely reaffirmed after test driving all of the vehicles.
The Toyota just had a much more sophisticated engine design vs. the dated 50's style pushrod engines offered by Chevy and Dodge. I would have to say that you would be very pressed to find a smoother more refined engine than Toyotas overhead cam V8. Plus, you cannot deny Toyotas outstanding reliability. In fact, I have spoken with several car wholesalers who can attest to this. They stated that they are never afraid to buy auctioned off Toyotas since it is not unusual to get 200,000 to 300,000 miles out of them. Truly impressive. Unfortunately, I have to take reliability in account, since I don't have the funds to purchase a new vehicle every 3-4 years. Plus to answer the call about being underpowered, Toyota is currently designing a factory supercharger (with full warranty) that should boost power to nearly 400HP!!!
I know you die-hard D, F, and C fans out there will give me crap about this, but there is truly not a quieter, smoother, nor more refined half ton truck out there. Sure I will give up A LITTLE in size to the Big3 and I wont be able to tow 10000 lb trailers but thats not me anyhow. I will typically only tow 4000-6000 lb boats with it, and those rear seat passengers will just have to suffer a little....I know I won't be sitting back there...it will be MY truck after all..HA!
Anyhow, I know this will get you guys all fired up again so go ahead and start posting all of your comebacks. You should really test drive one though (and keep an open mind)...they really are an outstanding truck especially for its FIRST year out! and I definitely agree that a little more competition will make everyone work a little harder to build better trucks...we all win. Keep truckin'.
--BigDinAustin
I have put bigger Tundras in my toilet bowl than Toyota will ever make!!!
Ryan
"How about smoother quieter engine, less wind and
road noise, runs on regular without pinging (easily makes up for the 1mpg difference in EPA fuel economy ratings, better handling, more front seat legroom, no Fisher Price plastics in the interior"
...all the same subjective schlep that you always post...mine doesn't ping, gets better gas mileage than yours, handles fine, has more legroom than you can shake a stick at and the Fisher Price comment...grow up...
"better fit and finish, better initial quality (JD Powers award for 2000 full size pickups.
If you want to believe that Hyundai of yours has
the same level of quality and reliability as a
Tundra - you are going to have a hard sell -"
...there's the reliability club...
"except for saps such as DBhull that got stuck with F150s. What a maroon!"
... and the personal attacks...i assume calling somebody a color is a personal attack anyways...
brag while you can bama...we'll see what CR and JD Powers has to say about the 2001 tundras...it won't be good.
bco
Seriously, a whole lot of the offense taken has to do with the way things are said. The "less truck, more buck" slogan, while an accurate summary of my assessment, does not offer anything to discuss. It simply applies a blanket label without reason or room for disagreement.
newtruckbuyer (great post!) offers not only what was important to him in the decision but how the Tundra and others faired in that comparison. An excellent post and truly helpful to others as they can clearly see whether or not the same features are important to them and then use the information accordingly.
bamatundra on the other hand, while also offering good reasons for his choice, still manages to make it sound like junior high silliness with his tacked-on "my truck is better than your truck!" harangue against all the competition. bamatundra, do you realize how little of the reasonable and possibly useful information is lost on all concerned because of your juvenile braggadocio? Edit all the "put downs" out of your last post and see how much better the reaction is (and others, skip that stuff and see that he has some points to make -- you just have to ignore his arrogance).
Finally, being unable to remain completely serious for long, this all reminds me of a story. Three kids were playing and began the time-honored childish game of "my Dad is better than your dad!" The first kid declared suddenly, "My Dad is really fast, he can run a 4 minute mile!" The second kid inevitably responded with, "That's nothing! My Dad runs the 100 yard dash in 10 seconds!" The third kid just calmly replied, "Aw you guys are full of it. My Dad beats both of yours. He works for the County. He gets off work at 4:00 and makes it home by 3:30!!!"
Smile, you'll look and feel much better....
I never bad mouth the competition. That is the height of unprofessionalism. By pointing out things like the smooth, quite ride (especially on the highway), the one piece frame, 4 piston caliper front brakes, fly by wire throttle control, various comfort features and the like, I would allow the customer to self discover the value. If a person drive the Chevy on a mixed course that includes washboard roads, 65 MPH highway driving and some curves, and then does the same course with the Tundra, the contrast is easy to draw.
If ride quality is not a primary concern, the sale is much more difficult. Reliability is a more difficult thing to quantify. I rarely even discuss it because I don't know what the person's previous experience has been. He may have owned a GM product in the past and had no problems with it. He may have been one of the many with the Toyota head gasket problem. More than likely, he is here because of what he already thinks about Toyota reliability and I really don't need to say anything.
I don't sell everybody a truck. I can't because our truck does not meet everybody's needs. It meets more peoples needs than they realize but few people will walk in with an open mind about that.
I will agree with one of your points though the open mind thing.
Ryan
personally, i did not notice a difference between the way the tundra and silverado handled/rode on the highway. differences in smooth acceleration, quiet ride, responses to throttle or steering input, or roughness on the road were negligible (in my opinion). did not have the opportunity to take either off-road on the test drive. did hit some railroad tracks with each (closest i could come to a washboard-type road) - again, negligible. overall, ride quality was not a huge issue for me. buying a 4wd truck, i knew i wasn't going to be riding "on air". i have been impressed with the long trips (600+ miles one way) i've taken in my 'rado. very smooth, quiet, comfortable ride. lumbar support is primo! i can get out after a long ride without feeling like i've been stuffed in a suitcase for 9 hours (like i felt after getting out of my old altima).
so it came down to things like gas mileage, available space, power ratings and safety features. in those four categories, i gave the advantage to the chevy. abs, dual second gen airbags (with a disable feature on the passenger airbag in case you have a childseat there) and integrated safety belts are great. crash test ratings favor neither the tundra or the silverado. i've never owned a toyota. i have owned a gmc truck, a honda car and a nissan car in the past. i took good care of all of them. none gave me problems. therefore, reliability was not a major issue for me. if my new truck was going to go bad, i knew it would happen inside the warranty period and that i can be a big enough a**hole to get my way at the service center if need be.
lastly, i make it a personal policy not to buy vehicles in their first model years. witness: both the '99 'rados and the '00 tundras have had problems. i was convinced that the '00 'rados were improved, so i bought one. mine has been flawless to date...
bco
bco
The comment about the Land Cruisers is very real. These guys want a luxury car but need a bed for various reasons. The Land Cruiser is far and away the best riding off road vehicle built. The Tundra is not far off and if you pay close attention to the details, you will see this.
This first group tend to buy the Limited and load them up. Most want leather and ABS and I can get them.
The next group is the guy who wants or needs a truck but isn't as affluent nor do they care as much about the ride. They are import buyers and distrust domestic quality. They will look at the Silverado and F150 but they also look at used ones to see how they hold up over time. They are generally unimpressed with 100K domestics due to a general loose feeling and the nickel and dime problems. They have owned Toyotas and Hondas and believe the Tundra will hold up over the long haul better.
These guys buy the SR5. I have a harder time with these guys only because there are just too many different equipment configurations. Toyota makes factory ordering difficult for us so I try to keep the customer on something that I can get from our lot or on the ground at another dealer's lot.
I have also noticed that many complaints about the Tundra focus on the salesmen rather than the product. I am well aware that there are too many really bad Toyota salesmen in this world. When shopping for a car or truck, shop for a good salesman and dealership before you get into price. It will make all the difference in the world.
Factory ordering was the main reason i bought my silverado. I didnt want it sitting on the lot and people driving it.
Ok whats this Ryan's Impressions aside cliff??? I know you wont answer it but im still gonna ask. What are my impressions i would like to know. Dont go hide in the bush either. Cant answer a simple question obviously its simple if you know my impressions.
Ryan
obviously, there is something i've done to make you want to trash everything i say. and that's fine. but have the decency to own up to things you say. all you do is throw a punch and then run for cover. i make a civil post and you just cast it aside...and you want to talk about professionalism? please...
bco
Dean
bco
My impressions of the Silverado declined as the interior was pretty cheap looking. The Dodge wasn't that bad inside but the stereo looked like crap and it had a flimsy gear-shifter (auto). But, it lacked any kind of complexity although I really liked the storage space between the seats for small laptop, cell phone, etc. Ford didn't impress me... plainorama. Toyota had it together inside the best out of the bunch, but, not fancy at all, pretty plain.
On the road the Chevy and an annoying squeak and I asked the salesman about it and I have to tell you that he told me the dumbest thing I've heard out of a salesman to date... "It will go away when the vehicle has been worked in". WHAT? I told him that is highly unlikely and he made matters worse by saying that if they find out where it is coming from it could be fixed but if not that I wouldn't even notice it after a while. Enough said there. Out of the 4 trucks it was not the most agile, although it had a better turning circle than I expeceted on such a long truck.
The Dodge was actually pretty impressive and seemed to have more punch but had noisy tires. It handled well, but, not fantastic but had something about it that was appealing... maybe the sound of the exhaust.
The Ford was larger than I thought just by looking at it. Out of all the trucks, it seemed to have a good balance of ride comfort in terms of seating, but, really bounced a lot when driven. Performance was average but interior was roomy.
Toyota definitely felt the most nimble and sporty of the bunch. Based purely on what I've seen without statistics in gas mileage or horsepower, etc. this truck suited me the best. The ride was good, handling was best of the bunch without question. My only complaint aside from the price difference is the rather simple interior design. But, the rest were not that great either.
Just my $.02. For the record, before I test drove the trucks I was leaning more to the Chevy because of towing, hauling, etc.
Ryan
In rebuttal of ryanbabs post of should ride like a truck. Please tell me what you prefer then...the ride of a '72 Chevy or the ride of a 00 Chevy. The same point can be used against you. I doubt very much that you prefer the older ride. If a manufacturer can design a vehicle that can tow 7200lbs, has a payload of 2000lbs and still rides better than alot of cars then that is called excellent design!
By the way..anyone know of any good dealers in Texas, Ark, La, Okla. I have no problem traveling to get what I want. Please let me know.
-BigDinAustin
I agree with bco and most of why he bought his Silverado, only for my Ford. I think the Tundra and the Silverado have a better ride than the F150. My F150 is a little stiff, but not so much to make it uncomfortable, even on a long trip. One thing that comes at a disadvantage with a more comfortable ride is a sacrifice in hauling, towing, etc. The softer suspension needed to make a truck more comfortable, takes away from some of it's truck like capabilities, even if only minutely so. That was something I was not in preference to give up, but that is just my preference.
If you can continue going on your post 254 in saying that the Tundra doesn't fit everyones needs, then I can respect that. An F150 doesn't fit everyones needs either, else everyone would drive one. What I will argue with you till the cows come home about is this higher quality and reliability thing. Just because it has a Toyota nameplate doesn't make it a better built truck. They all break, you even admitted it yourself with the head gasket problem. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge all have their similar quirks that happen from time to time. Doesn't mean that everyone or even a great percentage of trucks bought will have that problem though. The F150 has gotten somewhat of a reputation for piston slap. Truth known, piston slap only affected roughly 2% of the 5.4l trucks sold. That is not all that significant in comparison to the numbers sold and Ford did make everyones trucks right again, and they redesigned the truck to eliminate that small problem. Should I not have bought a Ford after hearing of this problem blown way out of proportion? Not in my opinion. The piston slap problem is no worse or better than Silverado or Tundra vibrations, or Dodge brakes, etc.
You buy what you like and fits your needs best. Even if the Toyota was deemed the most reliable truck made, which I don't think someone could convince me of, I still would not have bought one because it did not fit my needs and likes. Tundra owners say that domestic truck owners over-emphasize the size difference. To me it is very important. I haul a lot of stuff in my truck as well as tow close to the limits of the truck very regularly. Even the mere difference in bed depth and interior cab room, although not drastic, it is enough not to fit my need. These things are all I have ever said about the Tundra. I did not start the bashing rampage and it is not my sole desire to only come here and bash the Tundra, but I will defend my choices and the reasons for my choices, same as the Tundra owners. Your subjective opinions in which truck is best are no different or less important than a Tundra owners or any other make truck.
I would love to be able to talk trucks constructively and civilly. I have tried to join others who have taken the first step, like Ryan and BCO. It seems like every time we do, somebody like bamatundra goes flying off the handle slamming domestic trucks with a bunch of garbage. In this case, you got all defensive, when actually, someone was trying to be civil and helpful. I can see why BCO got upset.
If you want to omit the crap and start contributing as you say you do, then lets start here and be done with the nonsense, shall we?