I get 13.8 driving around base, 17.5 on the highway with hang gliders/racks and 18.5 without. I've gotten 19.2 once traveling at 60 mph or less the whole way. The trip I usually make to Oregon is on flat highway-70%, rolling hills-10% and steep grades-20%
Don't you know? Robbie is not only a top notch sanitary Engineer, but an Aviator too! The gov't gave him his own military jet to fly on the weekends. He only drives the Tundra when he's slummin.
and I certainly don't want to start non-productive discussion. However, quality/reliability problems are not as clear as the simple truck A transmission vs truck B rattle example. We have limited accurate info on new vehicle problems which is why I also put more value on usage needs than reliability info.
My needs were a) fits in garage, b) 3 or 4 dr. extended cab for limited use and c) towing a 5th wheel. a) plus b) dictates short bed, but c) requires longest cab to axle distance for turning angle. Tundra was ruled out based on c) and Silverado was slightly better than Ford or Dodge. BTW, I refuse to use a slider hitch because it requires 1) anticipating greater than "X" degree turn, 2) stopping to unlock the slider, 3) pulling forward to slide the trailer back, 4) stopping to relock the slider, 5) completing the turn and 6) reversing the process to resume highway speeds. I did not need to test drive a Tundra to make my decision. But those were my specific needs.
Back on the quality/reliability topic, while truck B may have a rattle problem that is known to many owners, it might also have a problem only under vehicle conditions that occur infrequently that actually make it the worse truck. Maybe at maximum rear axle loading or higher which some owners do exceed occasionally. Another example, is airbags that are ONLY used at the last instant of the vehicle life and never tested before their use. NHTSA has several claims of airbag failure on the Tundra (but even that data is owner entered and may very well be false).
Finally, vehicle problems that we are aware of rest with the manufacturer but also with the subcontractors. For example, bad Firestone tires are also the fault of the vehicle manufacturer. Ford is not a victim here, they are part of the problem, they have the right and responsibility to monitor the subcontractor. (not to digress too much, but as a subcontractor I observed that GM monitored my work better remotely than Ford did with an on-site quality engineer, but that was several years ago) The tires are bad because of unacceptable process variations. The Silverado has a vibration problem but NOT on 100% of the 2WD trucks, the rack-and-pinion assembly is subcontracted and it also suffers from unacceptable process variations.
Again, I hope I don't upset anyone with my comments.
lots of hills in West Virginia and I'm thinking it's affecting my mileage a little. Avg. about 15 with a low of 14.2 and high of 16.5 - Y2K Silv. hoping for a little better. Haven't been able to get 17 with a lot of highway use which upsets me, but like I said lots of hills and lots of tranny downshifting...
Yeah I don't want to mention names, but, I think it is obvious that those who can not refrain from bad-mouthing others don't have anything substantial to say. Let me make this contribution and see what the real issues are with these trucks. Here are some "macro" categories that I would like to suggest and people can make comments on them as they wish. Let us compare the 2000 models of the Chevy Silverado, Ford F150, Dodge RAM, and Toyota Tundra in the following categories (simplistic as they may be): Physical Size (exterior): Physical Size (interior): Power: Torque: Curb Weight: lbs./hp: Seating: Interior Amenities: Looks: Max. Payload: Max. Towing: Fuel Mileage: Warranty: Reliability: Longevity: Price: Maintenance Costs: Abilities (i.e. off-roading, etc.):
Now, I realize that a lot can be added and taken away as necessary. Please feel free to do so, but, also try to be fair about how each truck ranks on each of these parameters. The end results may be surprising. Some things are subjective, but, others are straight forward. Rank should be on a 1 to 10 scale with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best. At the end, if all parameters are equally weighted (which we could also decide to do differently), than the sum totals for each vehicle will show the winners. How does that sound? Feel free to make changes or suggestions...
Physical Size (exterior): 8 - bed too shallow and no long bed available.
Physical Size (interior): 6 - extended cab too little room, both length, width, and height. Extended cab seat is straight up and down, uncomfortable for even a child on anything but very short trips.
Power: 6 - ok for a base engine choice, but lacking severely to the competition with the alternate V8 choices the domestics have.
Torque: 9 - Very good for the weight and size of the truck, but if it were bigger and heavier like the other trucks, it would not be at all impressive. And again, no optional V8 engine choice limits this truck in its high end capabilities. A lot of people don't use 1/2 tons for more than what this engine provides, so if you are one of those people, this would not be an issue.
Curb Weight: 9 - Only a little less than the comparible Silverado trucks and yet it is considerably smaller in size.
lbs./hp: 7 - ok and ok for a base truck option as stated above.
Seating: 4 - Thin and very uncomfortable. Sorry but all Toyota interiors I have ever seen have been very cheap and not very comfortable, cars included. No lumbar either. Arm rests on Captains chairs are cheaply stitched and come loose easily.
Interior Amenities: 4- The trucks worst flaw. Cheap stereo equipment. Lots of the layout on the inside is a mixture of the Silverado (especially the middle console with captains chairs) and Ford, only they used cheaper materials imho. Looks:
Max. Payload: 10 - Payload is an advantage that the Tundra has. Its shorter wheel base allows more bed weight. However, that higher capacity isn't much good if the bed itself is shallower and shorter.
Max. Towing: 7 - Adequate, again for a base engined truck, but it has to use lower gearing (4.10 diff for one) to get that same tow capacity. Still 7200 lbs is impressive from the 4.7l engine.
Fuel Mileage: 4 - Terrible when comparing it to Ford or Chevy. Dodge is worse, but everyone knows that. Hats off to the Silverado for terrific gas mileage, but I wonder if the pinging people are having is partly from running too lean and that is where the fuel economy comes from.
Warranty: 8 - Not much different. Yeah, the Tundra has a 5yr/60k powertrain warranty, but the exact same bumper to bumper warranty. That extended powertrain warranty is only a few hundred dollars on a new domestic truck and the Tundra's initial purchase price is much higher than a few hundred dollars. I think I can handle not having the "free" extended powertrain warranty.
Reliability: 9 - Same as any if you base the Tundra on past models. Some people swear by a supposed higher quality in Toyota. Not proven in any Toyota model I ever have known. Domestic owners can swear to as many or even more "stories" where X or y domestic truck had no reliability issues and had complete ownership satisfaction. Longevity: Again, Toyota not proven to be any advantage. Magazine articles prove nothing for either side of the fence.
Price: 6 - Well, until the recent price slashes and deals to help sell Tundras, the Tundra was way more than the domestics. Now, the Tundra is within a 1-2k more money than the domestics. I still say a buyer gets way more truck for the money buying a Ford or Chevy. Maintenance Costs: About the same replacement occurences, but Toyota parts (import parts as a whole) are at least 40-50% more in cost than domestics.
Abilities (i.e. off-roading, etc.): 6 - Tundra has a slight advantage off road in "some" circumstances. Places that I would guess few truck owners go anyway, like rock climbing and tight trails, etc. This is only due to its smaller size. If that is a concern, I would say a Dakota would be a better choice.
Like em or not, there they are. I expect all sorts of tantrums now. Let the fists wave.
I agree all the way. Tundra is perfectly fine for use around town, and for small loads and light work. For some of u, it suits perfectly. For others, a dakota would be a much better purchase. Same size, lots more power. The big 3 offer alot more truck in my opinion. I prefer ford, however, i really dont care for the frontend. Dodge has the best current styling for a truck. 96' and before fords were, in my opinion, the best work truck u could buy. The new fords have the most torque and pulling power of all 1/2 tons. But dodge and chevy aren't at all far behind. Someone mentioned earlier that hundai's have 100k mile warrenty, well, a ford 250/350 with a diesel engine also has a 100k mile warrenty. So much for import superiority. But, that does not apply to 1/2 tons so it doesn't count in this discussion. Just thought i would bring it up.
* see your toyota dealer for required additional equipment. GCWR limits and other details
Got this from a tundra ad in my truck trend magazine
Hmmm i guess you need additional equipment just like the silverado (weight bearing hitch???) to tow more. RWELL you need not say anymore that the tundra tows more than the silverado. From this you can see for a fact it doesnt.
I never said the Tundra could tow more. The only additional equipment the Tundra would need is a hitch and wire harness. Does that come standard on the Silverado?
To tow more than 5000 lbs with the Chevy, you have to upgrade the suspension - wimpy. The Tundra just needs a hitch.
Don't feel too bad though - the Ford will only tow 4000 lbs without upgrading the suspension. And to think DBhull unloaded his Chevy for an even wimpier truck - what a loser.
The standard Ford tow capacity with a 5.4l V8 and only 3:55 gear is 7,900 lbs. Even with the heavier suspension added and every option available for a Ford, it still is cheaper than your Tundra, not to mention has much more capabilities.
To get your "so-called" 7200 lb tow capacity, one must have the heavier 4:10 differential. Same Ford truck with just a 3:73 gear tow capacity jumps to 8,500 lbs.
Not only that, but if you were anything but a mechanical idiot, you would know that the ratings manufacturers put on trucks for tow, etc. are significantly modest to it's true capacity, so to cover themselves.
As usual, you show your stupidity. You call DBHull a loser, everyone knows who the loser is. You are real piece, you are. Talking trash about someone who isn't even reading your posts. That takes some real manhood.
What's the matter, the truth of post 116 hurt too much so you got all upset? Go read your Tundra owners manual. You will feel better.
well there you have it, after reading these posts i've come to the conclusion that we have indeed made a genuine mistake. don't know about you but i'm gunna go out and git one of these new fangled furds don'tcha know. heck all the stats speak fur themselves too don'tcha know. better interior, exterior, better this better that and it'll do this and that and so on and so and so on. heck i'll bet the rest of the guys in here can't wait either.
Toyota Tundra = "possibly" 100k sales in 1 year. domestic trucks = 2.5 million.
Yep. That Tundra is sure the winner now.
red: I am just bored. Nobody here at Edmunds posts any real problems with the Fords to discuss.
I don't claim any Ford superiority, but I know any domestic truck is more truck for the dollar no matter how you look at it. When the Tundra makes a truck that really competes, ie. engine choices, size, comfort, price, and capabilities as ANY of the domestic trucks, I will give credit where credit is due. So far, I think everyone knows that the Tundra is no where near competition with any of the full size truck markets.
I didn't know you had a hangup about Fords. You must be a little stung by the Silverado pinging comment above. Sorry. I didn't create the problem everyone is having with them. Just stated the facts of it. Doesn't mean the Silverado is a bad truck. It would be my second choice to a Ford. We can't all drive the same truck.
Yep. It's about the same with the Fords. You can't get a factory 4:10 in the 1/2 ton Fords anymore. I wish you could. It is very easy to swap rearends though. If Ford put a 4:10 diff in their 1/2 tons, it would have the highest tow rating available in the 1/2 tons.
Even the 3:73 diff on the 1/2 tons usually has to be ordered. Dealers sell them before they can even drive them off the hauler.
pinging? never even heard as much as a fart outa the chevy, 13,400 mi. and the truck runs and rides just like the day i bought it. does'nt even have the rough idle i see some guys posting about.
you are contradicting when you say something like, sorry, i'm just bored.
There you go again, shooting a guy in the back. What a man you are, you Tundra girlscout you!
Red: Tell that to the literally thousands who have. I never had any piston slap or door cracks either, but that doesn't mean that Fords didn't have a problem with it in a small percentage of trucks. I think what you really are saying is "I am glad I didn't get one of Chevys pinging problems in my truck."
I think you are a fence rider. Make a stand and stick with it. One day you are trash talking the Tundra, next your booty buddies with bamatundra and his finest little boys club.
i'm not getting involved in more mudslinging, but i thought i'd point out to you...the z85 suspension package costs a whopping $85 invoice, $91 msrp (source: carwizard.com). all that does is give you a firmer ride to help handle heavier vehicles (e.g. while towing). so...you're putting down the chevy for something that costs less than $100 as an option. basically, for people who know they'll most likely never strap a 7,500 pound trailer on their trucks - allows them a softer ride when empty/unloaded.
honestly, this is something that i consider to be a "con" on behalf of toyota. the problem being: toyota limits the number of options the consumer has to choose from. anywhere from not allowing you to order a vehicle burger king style (i.e. have it YOUR way) to not offering 3/4 or 1 ton platforms. you're forced to pick from a limited (maybe that's the root of the package name?) selection of combinations.
can we put the towing issues to rest now? bottom line is: tundra has the lowest towing capacity (except maybe dodge, again, i don't know). that's not necessarily bad if towing capacity is lower on your priority list than, say, downtown driving/parking.
but Toys are up 2% and we are down!... Bad bad bad bad domestics....
good good good good imports...
these guys are a gas...
notice when we say they are elementary or highschool....they don't deny it?
..and for towing....take a max for a silverado...max for a ford...max for a ram..max for a Toy.....man the toy looks lame eh?
and that's just 1/2 tons...(what's a toy?...2/5 ton?).....we could go into the 3/4 /1 ton catagory..but the big bad toy truck company doesn't have anything to offer..DOHHH...OK..let's compare diesels..the real tow hounds...DOHHH
watch the name callin' or you'll get tossed again. being stabbed in the back is sometimes something that a friend does to you in order to get what's needed out of performing such an act. so far i don't think anyone is in here to give you such treatment. if replying to the guys in the tundra abs topic bothers you then you my friend are the one that's ridin' the fence post, know what i mean, you kapisch? i call it getting along with others. you on the other hand must think that if you have a problem with others that we should all have a problem with them too. NOT! i see the issues going on in here and while i have my opinions of who's right or wrong, well let's just say i'm gonna stay quiet so as not to get kicked off. but you go right ahead and keep tryin' to kill off the tundra. i'm gonna go play with my truck and have some fun. and f150, no hard feelings ok? i do like fords but, for some reason a lot of the ford guys seem to be like rednecks and very defensive, this does'nt mean you but.
Where did you guys get your numbers?? It seems that the only figure different in the two lists is the Silverado? Is that due to the fact that F150rules' figure didn't include the Sierra? What's up? Thanks.
ok. I see your point and agree with you. Just for one more times sake though, I HAVE NEVER BEEN KICKED OFF THIS SITE!!!!! I don't know where this crap comes from!
Apologies to everyone for missing the Sierra in my figures. They certainly should have been included.
While I am at it, let me mention that I have NEVER stated that the Tundra was a piece of junk, inferior to my Ford in reliability or anything like that. I have only stated facts that everyone knows already as well as a few of my subjective opinions about the Tundra. Fact - the Toyota offers a smaller truck, less options, and costs more money on the whole than any of the big three trucks, unless they have started some really big price cuts I have not heard of yet. My posts here started out when Robbie asked me my opinion. Tundra folks here don't like hearing the facts about their trucks being smaller, not having as much capability, costing more, not being any more reliable, etc. Those things are not subjective. They are facts. As soon as you mention any of these things, even civilly, to a Tundra owner, they start throwing tantrums and start calling names.
I can be civil and get along here, no problem and not continue badgering Tundra owners, soon as they start contributing to the discussions here and quit dodging questions. I have had about enough of the superiority complex Tundra owners seem to have about their trucks too.
I love Ford trucks. Never had any problems with them and they have always delivered when asked too without so much as a whimper, but I know they are prone to mechanical failures, even if I have not experienced anything major myself. Tundra owners continually try and pass off some crap about their trucks don't break down, more reliable than domestics, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
If the Tundra owners can contribute something besides what anyone can read from a sales brochure, quit knocking domestics in order to feel more justified in their higher cost purchase, I can behave too. I have no problem with someone saying, "I bought the Tundra because I liked it better" or "It fit my needs better than the domestics". That I have no problem with. It sure gets tiresome hearing the same crap of "My Tundra is reliable and your x,y,z domestic isn't" when everyone knows the truth.
can you buy a Tundra for less than invoice on? $5500 less than sticker is less than invoice. Come on Z - who do you think is really going to believe this? Some of your naive Chevy friends? Dbhull?
A good friend of mine just bought a Tundra last week. He searched for 2 months and was able to find a deal for $200 over invoice. He drove 300 miles to get this deal. Most other dealers were firm at $500 to $1000 over invoice.
Toyota does not have any national rebates or financing deals available. Check Edmund's if you don't believe me. Chevy and Ford do have rebates and financing. Who is having a hard time selling?
Face it - If Toyota sales are increasing and Big3 are decreasing - Toyotas market share is increasing - do the math.
By the way - he drove a Chevy and a Ford and much preferred the Tundra.
The Tacoma had one of their best months of the year last month. Where are you getting -30% from? Check your misinformation before you post it. Here is my source:
You Chevy guys are so predictable - when you lose an argument, you try to change the topic and post about the Tundra's size. Tiny Tim is a good example, but you are just as bad. Feeling insecure? Just an observation.
I just purchased a Tundra SR5 V8 TRD last night and this is the latest news when I closed the deal. On Aug 24 Toyota will launch a campaign that will match your down payment up to $1000. This deal includes the Tundra. Be aware of this, because a good sales manager can set up the paper work to get you this discount early. Just thought some of you looking for a Tundra might want to know.
Also I don't know about your dealer but the dealers around here expect 2001 Tundras by Oct 01.
Went by toyota dealership yesterday well wednesday and they had huge signs on the tundras $5000 off. Bama its true and this is in the chicagoland area. You cant deny the huge price slashes
Congrats, I stated this fact last week. The Vegas dealers have a matching $1000 if you put down $500. The sales Mgr. also said he'd go $500 OVER invoice before the matching making it effectively $500 under invoice.
Bama , you'll listen to what you want to listen to.....sort of like spoog/vince Jr.???????
BTW, IMHO(again) the Tundra was a very nice $25,000 truck. Any one who paid sticker(almost $30,000) or over in the early days got suckered.
No national rebates????? I dont recall what exactly the rebate or whatever was but i have seen a toyota commerical advertising something on all 2000 tundras. YOu are in pure denial. Get ur head out your [non-permissible content removed] and wake up to the real world. We arent lying to you
reference your post #155: "You can get deals on any vehicle now - it is the END OF THE MODEL YEAR. WAKE UP!"
first, WE told YOU this when you were talking about tundra sales increasing while domestics were decreasing. we've been awake. second, your denial of a "nation-wide" rebate may be accurate. but it's just semantics. it may not be "nation-wide" but there are a whole LOT of regional rebates. (poTAYto/poTAHto)
"As far as resale goes - What do you think Silverados will be worth now that word is out on how unreliable they are? I predict they will make the Consumer Reports list of "Used Vehicles to Avoid". You would have to find someone with the limited intelligence of DBhull to buy one."
i disagree with your prediction...and your personal attacks on DBhull are getting old. why can't you all talk trucks without hurling insults? these statements really detract from the worthwhile statements you have. like below:
"GM ignored the Japanese sedans when they were first introduced. GM went from 38% market share in the 70's to ~15% now. They better get their act together in quality and reliability or the trucks will follow the same path."
i completely agree with this statement and i am VERY happy that the japanese have attempted to break the full-size market. because it will force domestic trucks to raise the bar. however, toyota has a lot of bugs to fix in the tundra for the 2001 model year before THEIR reputation for quality and reliability will extend to their efforts at full-size truck production.
my prediction? tundra will have at least two domestic trucks (my prediction is ford and chevy) rated higher than it in quality and reliability for the 2001 model year. my rationale? chevy got a lot of work done fixing the bugs of the '99s in the '00s. tundra introduced in '00 and got the accolades of toyota's quality and reliability before the truck had a chance to prove itself. i'm sure many people bought tundras in the '00 model year with quality and reliability at or very near the top of their priority list. some were disappointed. those who were are the ones who were most likely to raise hell about it. much like gm, toyota will likely fix many of the bugs during the second model year and reliability/quality ratings will go back up. THAT's when you'll see toyota ramp production of the tundra up in effort to grab more of the market. but not before...
"On which planet can you buy a Tundra for less than invoice on? $5500 less than sticker is less than invoice. Come on Z - who do you think is really going to believe this? Some of your naive Chevy friends? Dbhull?
A good friend of mine just bought a Tundra last week. He searched for 2 months and was able to find a deal for $200 over invoice. He drove 300 miles to get this deal. Most other dealers were firm at $500 to $1000 over invoice."
Bama, I'm obviously disputing your comment that you can't but a Tundra for below invoice and not to be disrespectful but your friend is a terrible shopper.
I get a strange feeling that you're now basing a trucks superiority on the fact that a dealer won't discount them.
Future quote? "My truck's waaaaay better because I didn't get as much of a discount as you."
There are no NATIONAL rebates. Some regions may have rebates if they have too many on the ground. In the Central Atlantic Region, there are no rebates or incentives unless you want a 48 month lease.
As to the $5500 off sticker, that is a crock of turd. Many dealerships add to the sticker with $495 pin stripes and $120 wheel locks. Once they inflate the sticker by enough, they will discount it by $5500. After they do this, they will add freight back in at $480. Anyone who negotiates this way is a fool. Ask to see the invoice and any incentive programs. Make a deal less than $500 over and you have a good and honest deal without all the hype and lies.
As to this down payment matching, I have never heard of such a thing and it sounds illegal. There is nothing that says you must put a down payment if you have the credit and income to handle the payment. What does Toyota have to gain from your down payment anyway? This sounds like a sales gimmick to me.
bamatundra only throws out insults and talks down domestic trucks when he sees the facts of the Tundra and doesn't like it. He is just upset that he paid more for his truck than a bigger, more capable, and more optional equipment domestic made truck. He has no facts or even any credible arguements to prove otherwise, and it ticks him off.
bamatundra is not very confident or happy with himself or his truck or he wouldn't feel the need to try and bring everyone else down to his level.
We just got our first 2001 Tundra. The only difference is they now have bed rails and a new logo on the back. I would have liked to see a bit or a change to the angle of the back seat but I guess that will have to wait another year.
Have been advertising $500 rebates and 2.9% interest rates for the last 2 weeks. I did not say it was a national program. Last week discounts of $5,000 on all Tundras in stock was also common. The Houston paper today has discounts of $4,000 on Tundras & Tacomas; $6,000 on 4 runners. They must have reduced the Tundra inventory over the last week - so have dropped back on the discount. One dealer is offering 4X Toyota rebate amount as additional discount on all trucks.
Cliffy may be right about the high mark up dealer installed items. The paint & fabric protection package is the worst of the worst. $ cost to dealer is $25 - price on sticker $600.
I have nothing against the Tundra - IMO it is the best mid-size truck on the market (with the discount). If Toyota would have been competitive on price, size and features when I bought I could be driving one now.
Went fishing today (indiana) seen 2 semis of new tundras. They are popping them out it seems like. I even seen 2 tundras driving around town today both were women. About the backseat thing though they will need to pretty much redesign that and maybe even the cab. Thats really the only way to get more room and comfort.
Oh yea cliffy the paper here also lists tundras $5000 off msrp. This is in a chicago paper.
Comments
Dean
LOL
- Tim
www.ushga.org
- Tim
My needs were a) fits in garage, b) 3 or 4 dr. extended cab for limited use and c) towing a 5th wheel. a) plus b) dictates short bed, but c) requires longest cab to axle distance for turning angle. Tundra was ruled out based on c) and Silverado was slightly better than Ford or Dodge. BTW, I refuse to use a slider hitch because it requires 1) anticipating greater than "X" degree turn, 2) stopping to unlock the slider, 3) pulling forward to slide the trailer back, 4) stopping to relock the slider, 5) completing the turn and 6) reversing the process to resume highway speeds. I did not need to test drive a Tundra to make my decision. But those were my specific needs.
Back on the quality/reliability topic, while truck B may have a rattle problem that is known to many owners, it might also have a problem only under vehicle conditions that occur infrequently that actually make it the worse truck. Maybe at maximum rear axle loading or higher which some owners do exceed occasionally. Another example, is airbags that are ONLY used at the last instant of the vehicle life and never tested before their use. NHTSA has several claims of airbag failure on the Tundra (but even that data is owner entered and may very well be false).
Finally, vehicle problems that we are aware of rest with the manufacturer but also with the subcontractors. For example, bad Firestone tires are also the fault of the vehicle manufacturer. Ford is not a victim here, they are part of the problem, they have the right and responsibility to monitor the subcontractor. (not to digress too much, but as a subcontractor I observed that GM monitored my work better remotely than Ford did with an on-site quality engineer, but that was several years ago) The tires are bad because of unacceptable process variations. The Silverado has a vibration problem but NOT on 100% of the 2WD trucks, the rack-and-pinion assembly is subcontracted and it also suffers from unacceptable process variations.
Again, I hope I don't upset anyone with my comments.
Larry
there's still a couple of guys here that could'nt
carry on a decent conversation with a group of 9
year olds. and no pun intended towards the nine
year olds.
...red
Physical Size (exterior):
Physical Size (interior):
Power:
Torque:
Curb Weight:
lbs./hp:
Seating:
Interior Amenities:
Looks:
Max. Payload:
Max. Towing:
Fuel Mileage:
Warranty:
Reliability:
Longevity:
Price:
Maintenance Costs:
Abilities (i.e. off-roading, etc.):
Now, I realize that a lot can be added and taken away as necessary. Please feel free to do so, but, also try to be fair about how each truck ranks on each of these parameters. The end results may be surprising. Some things are subjective, but, others are straight forward. Rank should be on a 1 to 10 scale with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best. At the end, if all parameters are equally weighted (which we could also decide to do differently), than the sum totals for each vehicle will show the winners. How does that sound? Feel free to make changes or suggestions...
Physical Size (interior): 6 - extended cab too little room, both length, width, and height.
Extended cab seat is straight up and down, uncomfortable for even a child on anything but very short trips.
Power: 6 - ok for a base engine choice, but lacking severely to the competition with the alternate V8 choices the domestics have.
Torque: 9 - Very good for the weight and size of the truck, but if it were bigger and heavier like the other trucks, it would not be at all impressive. And again, no optional V8 engine choice limits this truck in its high end capabilities. A lot of people don't use 1/2 tons for more than what this engine provides, so if you are one of those people, this would not be an issue.
Curb Weight: 9 - Only a little less than the comparible Silverado trucks and yet it is considerably smaller in size.
lbs./hp: 7 - ok and ok for a base truck option as stated above.
Seating: 4 - Thin and very uncomfortable. Sorry but all Toyota interiors I have ever seen have been very cheap and not very comfortable, cars included. No lumbar either. Arm rests on Captains chairs are cheaply stitched and come loose easily.
Interior Amenities: 4- The trucks worst flaw. Cheap stereo equipment. Lots of the layout on the inside is a mixture of the Silverado (especially the middle console with captains chairs) and Ford, only they used cheaper materials imho.
Looks:
Max. Payload: 10 - Payload is an advantage that the Tundra has. Its shorter wheel base allows more bed weight. However, that higher capacity isn't much good if the bed itself is shallower and shorter.
Max. Towing: 7 - Adequate, again for a base engined truck, but it has to use lower gearing (4.10 diff for one) to get that same tow capacity. Still 7200 lbs is impressive from the 4.7l engine.
Fuel Mileage: 4 - Terrible when comparing it to Ford or Chevy. Dodge is worse, but everyone knows that. Hats off to the Silverado for terrific gas mileage, but I wonder if the pinging people are having is partly from running too lean and that is where the fuel economy comes from.
Warranty: 8 - Not much different. Yeah, the Tundra has a 5yr/60k powertrain warranty, but the exact same bumper to bumper warranty. That extended powertrain warranty is only a few hundred dollars on a new domestic truck and the Tundra's initial purchase price is much higher than a few hundred dollars. I think I can handle not having the "free" extended powertrain warranty.
Reliability: 9 - Same as any if you base the Tundra on past models. Some people swear by a supposed higher quality in Toyota. Not proven in any Toyota model I ever have known. Domestic owners can swear to as many or even more "stories" where X or y domestic truck had no reliability issues and had complete ownership satisfaction.
Longevity: Again, Toyota not proven to be any advantage. Magazine articles prove nothing for either side of the fence.
Price: 6 - Well, until the recent price slashes and deals to help sell Tundras, the Tundra was way more than the domestics. Now, the Tundra is within a 1-2k more money than the domestics. I still say a buyer gets way more truck for the money buying a Ford or Chevy.
Maintenance Costs: About the same replacement occurences, but Toyota parts (import parts as a whole) are at least 40-50% more in cost than domestics.
Abilities (i.e. off-roading, etc.): 6 - Tundra has a slight advantage off road in "some" circumstances. Places that I would guess few truck owners go anyway, like rock climbing and tight trails, etc. This is only due to its smaller size. If that is a concern, I would say a Dakota would be a better choice.
Like em or not, there they are. I expect all sorts of tantrums now. Let the fists wave.
Mgdvhman@home.com
- Tim
* see your toyota dealer for required additional equipment. GCWR limits and other details
Got this from a tundra ad in my truck trend magazine
Hmmm i guess you need additional equipment just like the silverado (weight bearing hitch???) to tow more. RWELL you need not say anymore that the tundra tows more than the silverado. From this you can see for a fact it doesnt.
Ryan
Don't feel too bad though - the Ford will only tow 4000 lbs without upgrading the suspension. And to think DBhull unloaded his Chevy for an even wimpier truck - what a loser.
Ryan
To get your "so-called" 7200 lb tow capacity, one must have the heavier 4:10 differential. Same Ford truck with just a 3:73 gear tow capacity jumps to 8,500 lbs.
Not only that, but if you were anything but a mechanical idiot, you would know that the ratings manufacturers put on trucks for tow, etc. are significantly modest to it's true capacity, so to cover themselves.
As usual, you show your stupidity. You call DBHull a loser, everyone knows who the loser is.
You are real piece, you are. Talking trash about someone who isn't even reading your posts. That takes some real manhood.
What's the matter, the truth of post 116 hurt too much so you got all upset? Go read your Tundra owners manual. You will feel better.
i've come to the conclusion that we have indeed
made a genuine mistake. don't know about you but
i'm gunna go out and git one of these new fangled
furds don'tcha know. heck all the stats speak fur
themselves too don'tcha know. better interior,
exterior, better this better that and it'll do
this and that and so on and so and so on. heck
i'll bet the rest of the guys in here can't wait
either.
good luck on this one now.
...red
domestic trucks = 2.5 million.
Yep. That Tundra is sure the winner now.
red: I am just bored. Nobody here at Edmunds posts any real problems with the Fords to discuss.
I don't claim any Ford superiority, but I know any domestic truck is more truck for the dollar no matter how you look at it. When the Tundra makes a truck that really competes, ie. engine choices, size, comfort, price, and capabilities as ANY of the domestic trucks, I will give credit where credit is due. So far, I think everyone knows that the Tundra is no where near competition with any of the full size truck markets.
I didn't know you had a hangup about Fords. You must be a little stung by the Silverado pinging comment above. Sorry. I didn't create the problem everyone is having with them. Just stated the facts of it. Doesn't mean the Silverado is a bad truck. It would be my second choice to a Ford. We can't all drive the same truck.
Even the 3:73 diff on the 1/2 tons usually has to be ordered. Dealers sell them before they can even drive them off the hauler.
F150fool - the mechanical genius claims that the Toyota has 4.1 gearing when it actually has 3.93 gears.
Man, DBhull really got stuck with that wimpy F150 of his. He should have kept the Chev.
the chevy, 13,400 mi. and the truck runs and
rides just like the day i bought it. does'nt even
have the rough idle i see some guys posting
about.
you are contradicting when you say something
like, sorry, i'm just bored.
...red
Red: Tell that to the literally thousands who have. I never had any piston slap or door cracks either, but that doesn't mean that Fords didn't have a problem with it in a small percentage of trucks. I think what you really are saying is "I am glad I didn't get one of Chevys pinging problems in my truck."
I think you are a fence rider. Make a stand and stick with it. One day you are trash talking the Tundra, next your booty buddies with bamatundra and his finest little boys club.
Trucks sales year to date
Ford - 540,601
Silverado - 383,923
Ram - 227,061
Tundra - 57,218 DOH! Nice figures Toyota. Lots of converts on this one.
honestly, this is something that i consider to be a "con" on behalf of toyota. the problem being: toyota limits the number of options the consumer has to choose from. anywhere from not allowing you to order a vehicle burger king style (i.e. have it YOUR way) to not offering 3/4 or 1 ton platforms. you're forced to pick from a limited (maybe that's the root of the package name?) selection of combinations.
can we put the towing issues to rest now? bottom line is: tundra has the lowest towing capacity (except maybe dodge, again, i don't know). that's not necessarily bad if towing capacity is lower on your priority list than, say, downtown driving/parking.
bco
but Toys are up 2% and we are down!...
Bad bad bad bad domestics....
good good good good imports...
these guys are a gas...
notice when we say they are elementary or highschool....they don't deny it?
..and for towing....take a max for a silverado...max for a ford...max for a ram..max for a Toy.....man the toy looks lame eh?
and that's just 1/2 tons...(what's a toy?...2/5 ton?).....we could go into the 3/4 /1 ton catagory..but the big bad toy truck company doesn't have anything to offer..DOHHH...OK..let's compare diesels..the real tow hounds...DOHHH
- Tim
again. being stabbed in the back is sometimes
something that a friend does to you in order to
get what's needed out of performing such an act.
so far i don't think anyone is in here to give
you such treatment. if replying to the guys in
the tundra abs topic bothers you then you my
friend are the one that's ridin' the fence post,
know what i mean, you kapisch? i call it getting
along with others. you on the other hand must
think that if you have a problem with others that
we should all have a problem with them too. NOT!
i see the issues going on in here and while i
have my opinions of who's right or wrong, well
let's just say i'm gonna stay quiet so as not to
get kicked off. but you go right ahead and keep
tryin' to kill off the tundra. i'm gonna go play
with my truck and have some fun.
and f150, no hard feelings ok? i do like fords
but, for some reason a lot of the ford guys seem
to be like rednecks and very defensive, this
does'nt mean you but.
see ya
...red
let me. sumthin' to do with the browser.
...red
Let's see, the combination would make a Sier-verado?
Silvierra?
Sierrado?
Silvera-ierra?
Sierraverado?
Silveradierra?
;-)
Apologies to everyone for missing the Sierra in my figures. They certainly should have been included.
While I am at it, let me mention that I have NEVER stated that the Tundra was a piece of junk, inferior to my Ford in reliability or anything like that. I have only stated facts that everyone knows already as well as a few of my subjective opinions about the Tundra. Fact - the Toyota offers a smaller truck, less options, and costs more money on the whole than any of the big three trucks, unless they have started some really big price cuts I have not heard of yet. My posts here started out when Robbie asked me my opinion. Tundra folks here don't like hearing the facts about their trucks being smaller, not having as much capability, costing more, not being any more reliable, etc. Those things are not subjective. They are facts. As soon as you mention any of these things, even civilly, to a Tundra owner, they start throwing tantrums and start calling names.
I can be civil and get along here, no problem and not continue badgering Tundra owners, soon as they start contributing to the discussions here and quit dodging questions. I have had about enough of the superiority complex Tundra owners seem to have about their trucks too.
I love Ford trucks. Never had any problems with them and they have always delivered when asked too without so much as a whimper, but I know they are prone to mechanical failures, even if I have not experienced anything major myself. Tundra owners continually try and pass off some crap about their trucks don't break down, more reliable than domestics, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
If the Tundra owners can contribute something besides what anyone can read from a sales brochure, quit knocking domestics in order to feel more justified in their higher cost purchase, I can behave too. I have no problem with someone saying, "I bought the Tundra because I liked it better" or "It fit my needs better than the domestics". That I have no problem with. It sure gets tiresome hearing the same crap of "My Tundra is reliable and your x,y,z domestic isn't" when everyone knows the truth.
A good friend of mine just bought a Tundra last week. He searched for 2 months and was able to find a deal for $200 over invoice. He drove 300 miles to get this deal. Most other dealers were firm at $500 to $1000 over invoice.
Toyota does not have any national rebates or financing deals available. Check Edmund's if you don't believe me. Chevy and Ford do have rebates and financing. Who is having a hard time selling?
Face it - If Toyota sales are increasing and Big3 are decreasing - Toyotas market share is increasing - do the math.
By the way - he drove a Chevy and a Ford and much preferred the Tundra.
The Tacoma had one of their best months of the year last month. Where are you getting -30% from? Check your misinformation before you post it. Here is my source:
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svolpu.asp
You Chevy guys are so predictable - when you lose an argument, you try to change the topic and post about the Tundra's size. Tiny Tim is a good example, but you are just as bad. Feeling insecure? Just an observation.
Just thought some of you looking for a Tundra might want to know.
Also I don't know about your dealer but the dealers around here expect 2001 Tundras by Oct 01.
Ryan
Bama , you'll listen to what you want to listen to.....sort of like spoog/vince Jr.???????
BTW, IMHO(again) the Tundra was a very nice $25,000 truck. Any one who paid sticker(almost $30,000) or over in the early days got suckered.
man....you guys really ARE that lame, aren't you?
LOL
Stop it...I can't take no more...
ehehehehhehehehe
- Tim
- Tim
Ryan
"You can get deals on any vehicle now - it is the
END OF THE MODEL YEAR. WAKE UP!"
first, WE told YOU this when you were talking about tundra sales increasing while domestics were decreasing. we've been awake. second, your denial of a "nation-wide" rebate may be accurate. but it's just semantics. it may not be "nation-wide" but there are a whole LOT of regional rebates. (poTAYto/poTAHto)
"As far as resale goes - What do you think
Silverados will be worth now that word is out on
how unreliable they are? I predict they will make
the Consumer Reports list of "Used Vehicles to
Avoid". You would have to find someone with the
limited intelligence of DBhull to buy one."
i disagree with your prediction...and your personal attacks on DBhull are getting old. why can't you all talk trucks without hurling insults?
these statements really detract from the worthwhile statements you have. like below:
"GM ignored the Japanese sedans when they were
first introduced. GM went from 38% market share in the 70's to ~15% now. They better get their act together in quality and reliability or the trucks will follow the same path."
i completely agree with this statement and i am VERY happy that the japanese have attempted to break the full-size market. because it will force domestic trucks to raise the bar. however, toyota has a lot of bugs to fix in the tundra for the 2001 model year before THEIR reputation for quality and reliability will extend to their efforts at full-size truck production.
my prediction? tundra will have at least two domestic trucks (my prediction is ford and chevy) rated higher than it in quality and reliability for the 2001 model year. my rationale? chevy got a lot of work done fixing the bugs of the '99s in the '00s. tundra introduced in '00 and got the accolades of toyota's quality and reliability before the truck had a chance to prove itself. i'm sure many people bought tundras in the '00 model year with quality and reliability at or very near the top of their priority list. some were disappointed. those who were are the ones who were most likely to raise hell about it. much like gm, toyota will likely fix many of the bugs during the second model year and reliability/quality ratings will go back up. THAT's when you'll see toyota ramp production of the tundra up in effort to grab more of the market. but not before...
that's my nickel for the day...
bco
$5500 less than sticker is less than invoice. Come
on Z - who do you think is really going to believe
this? Some of your naive Chevy friends? Dbhull?
A good friend of mine just bought a Tundra last
week. He searched for 2 months and was able to
find a deal for $200 over invoice. He drove 300
miles to get this deal. Most other dealers were
firm at $500 to $1000 over invoice."
Bama, I'm obviously disputing your comment that you can't but a Tundra for below invoice and not to be disrespectful but your friend is a terrible shopper.
I get a strange feeling that you're now basing a trucks superiority on the fact that a dealer won't discount them.
Future quote? "My truck's waaaaay better because I didn't get as much of a discount as you."
As to the $5500 off sticker, that is a crock of turd. Many dealerships add to the sticker with $495 pin stripes and $120 wheel locks. Once they inflate the sticker by enough, they will discount it by $5500. After they do this, they will add freight back in at $480. Anyone who negotiates this way is a fool. Ask to see the invoice and any incentive programs. Make a deal less than $500 over and you have a good and honest deal without all the hype and lies.
As to this down payment matching, I have never heard of such a thing and it sounds illegal. There is nothing that says you must put a down payment if you have the credit and income to handle the payment. What does Toyota have to gain from your down payment anyway? This sounds like a sales gimmick to me.
bamatundra only throws out insults and talks down domestic trucks when he sees the facts of the Tundra and doesn't like it. He is just upset that he paid more for his truck than a bigger, more capable, and more optional equipment domestic made truck. He has no facts or even any credible arguements to prove otherwise, and it ticks him off.
bamatundra is not very confident or happy with himself or his truck or he wouldn't feel the need to try and bring everyone else down to his level.
poor bamatundra.
Cliffy may be right about the high mark up dealer installed items. The paint & fabric protection package is the worst of the worst. $ cost to dealer is $25 - price on sticker $600.
I have nothing against the Tundra - IMO it is the best mid-size truck on the market (with the discount). If Toyota would have been competitive on price, size and features when I bought I could be driving one now.
Oh yea cliffy the paper here also lists tundras $5000 off msrp. This is in a chicago paper.
Ryan