Congrats on your new TL-S. All 3 cars you mentioned are fine vehicles with different balance between sports and luxury. It all comes down to personal choice/priority. You can't go wrong with any one.
Just one comment on the pricing. Under $500/month for the TL-S is certainly a good deal; however, I think the quotes you got for 328i and G35 were too high. I have been shopping and compare these same vehicles for about two months now. They can certainly be leased for under $500/month as well (with no cap cost reduction).
One major factor I haven't seen mentioned in this debate is the fact that the G35 is a new design that will be around for a few years whereas the TL is apparently in the last year of its run before a redesign. So if you buy the '07 TL you'll have yesterday's news when the new one debuts whereas you have at least 2-3 years of having the latest and greatest with the G. A big example of this in my mind is the BMW 3. The new version is so much nicer looking than the old that I feel sorry for the people who bought the last year before the redesign!
Do you guys drive your cars on a race track or something? I don't know about you but I'm not about to take my $30K+ car on a track anytime soon. That doesn't mean I'm driving around Ms. Daisy either. It just means I'll never get to the limits of my car.
As for the comparison of these two fine machines... I just looked on the net for performance numbers on the new G and the new TL-S. I found a comparison on Road & Track. The G is quicker in 0-60 and 1/4 mile (5.4 and 13.9 respectively compared to 5.7 and 14.3). The TL-S has better grip and was faster in the slalom (.91g vs. .88g and 66.0 vs. 65.5). Braking seemed about even (one was slightly better 60-0 and the other was slightly better 80-0). Just looking at these numbers it seems to me there is no statistically significant difference. I'd have to get the actual results of each test trial to know for sure. My point is that these measures of performance (the common ones used by car magazines and reviewers) show both cars to be great performers and there isn't much difference between them.
You should also realize that those numbers were obtained by professionals using special techniques to tweak the most out of these cars. Like brake torquing a car with an automatic or manipulating the revs before dropping the clutch. Most of the drivers out there gunning it from a stop light are just mashing the pedal. And most of the cars sold out there have an automatic transmission. Especially on ELLPS. So, these tests are not indicative of the real world. You performance enthuisiasts out there don't jump on me for that comment. I agree a manual tranny is much better for getting the most performance out of your ride. But you should concede that most drivers, even those in performance cars, use automatics. I don't own several cars. The one I've got has to accommodate several driving conditions and more than one driver.
The difference between RWD and FWD are just not going to be noticed by 99.99% of drivers unless they can push these cars to their limits on a race track. Who's going to do that? So, don't necessarily let that sway your choice. Test driver both vehicles and pick the one that suits you best.
And one final note...when speaking of the appearance of the car you do all realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? If it weren't then every car from every manufacturer would look the same as they would mold the cars after the standard image of good looking. There is no right or wrong answer here. It's one person's preference to another.
Ditto. Especially the part about real-world performance. I've often wondered about those guys that claim they have to have RWD or a manual tranny so they can wring the last ounce of performance out of their cars...I mean, who are we kidding here? Maybe if they're driving stolen cars....
You know another thing that agitates me in car magazine comparison tests and something that is often talked about in these posts...comparing cars like the BMW 3 series vs. the TL or G35. How can they be in the same class? The Bimmer is a compact car and the TL is a mid size sedan. But we can't really compare the TL to a 5 series because it's much more expensive. In fact most TLs sold even are automatics. Only about 10% of TLs made between 2004 and 2006 had manual transmissions. Since the BMW 330i and now the 335i are so rare (about 15-20% of all 3 series sedans) why not compare it to the 325i and 328i instead? With an automatic. It's a more realistic comparison. I think some people like to compare apples to oranges to make themselves feel good about their purchase. Again, it's a personal choice. Some people like small cars, some like big ones, some like fast ones, some prefer comfort and so it goes...
Actually come to think of it why don't more magazines test passing times? Like 45-65 mph or 50-70 mph times? That's actually something we do in our cars out in the real world.
I don't want to start the whole RWD vs FWD thing again, but I have one of each, a G and a Saab 9-3. I like the handling of both. The most noticeable difference is when I hit the gas hard, the FWD displays a slight tug through the steering wheel. This is not only when driving at 10/10ths. Of course, this only happens once in a while. Now I realize that this torque steer problem has been almost eliminated in most cars compared to early powerful FWD vehicles but it's still there. I noticed it when I test drove the TL. However, that was not the reason I chose the G. So, even though both cars perform almost equally, some may have a preference one way or the other. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out as we move forward. Will AWD become more popular? Will FWD stay popular, especially in the snow belt? Will RWD become more popular? Who knows? Thank God for CHOICES!
Saw the Infiniti G article in Consumer Reports today and test drove it at lunch. While the exterior of the G is extremely sporty looking and the 306 hp is quite impressive, I don't think you can beat the interior of the TL. Every time I sit in the TL I get that AHHH feeling.
After the test drive I went to the Acura dealership and put down my deposit for a 2007 TL w/nav.
Picking it up on Saturday.
One question I did have to anyone out there who owns a TL, what is the deal with the real time nav? Do you have to pay additional for that feature.
Good points. I agree with you that 328i is more comparable to G35 than 335i is, at least from a price standpoint. However, in my recent car shopping I was really frustrated not being able to find even just ONE test report on 328i while on the other hand there were TONS of reports on 335i in various magazine and on-line. (I did find a 2-page "short take" on 2006 325i in Car and Driver.)
I would be interested to see these magazine compare the different trims of the same model (e.g. 328i vs 335i, TL vs TL-S, G35 Journey vs Sports, etc.), and let the readers do their own comparison among different makes/models. Everyone agrees that the comparison should be "apple by apple", but the definition of "apple" is to each his own. Some may go by price, some by size, some by HP, and then there are people who compare SUVs with minivans.
Very true, jtla. I see what you mean. Heck, I've been shopping for a new car for my fiance and we've narrowed down our choices to the Lexus GS350RWD and the Acura MDX. Hardly two vehicles cut from the same cloth.
As for your plight of getting 328i info I believe Car and Driver did a comparo of ELLPS in 2004/5 and they included the 325i in the test instead of the 330i. You should be able to find it on their website. I know you said you were looking for the 328i but maybe that will be more helpful to you.
One question I did have to anyone out there who owns a TL, what is the deal with the real time nav? Do you have to pay additional for that feature.
Have an '04 TL w/ Nav and that "feature" wasn't introduced to Acura XM radio user's until the RL but from what I understand is yep, like everything else, real-time traffic is an additional pay-for-use feature. But do some research. I hear that feature is not all it's put out to be (i.e. not "real-time" at all!)
Consumer Reports now declares the 2007 G35 as the top upscale sedan above the BMW 3 Series, TL, CTS, etc. CR also ranks the Infiniti M above the BMW 5 Series, RL, GS, etc. as the top luxury car.
C&D, motortrend and other enthusiast magazines are die hard on legacy and brand... BMW always wins... well because it all ways has... therefore you don't dethrone something for 1 year. Infiniti (and others) need to prove themselves over a decade in order to begin to influence these magazines. they are all about hundredths of a fraction in performance and VERY UNSCIENTIFIC... i.e. "So Bob do you you like the 335i... Sure due Joe, Fantastic! Sounds like another winner to me!" They are all about how they feel on that particular day. And these magazines NEVER EVER take price into the picture. "Why drive an Audi a4 when you can have the S8.. huh... what's money?"
Consumer reports on the other hand is practical and ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. I personally would prefer they stuck with washers and toothbrushes... but when they do dive into higher level mechanics of cars and such. They take a scientific approach and everything has a defined measurement and grading criteria, and all individual grades roll up to a final score. If a car does 0-60 in 5.2 vs the other 5.3 CR doesn't really put much weight into that, it's considered close enough that it's a wash... and with good reason. The readers can SEE for themselves WHY the #1 car is #1 and why the #4 car is #4... And for 99.9% of the population, the CR method is better suited to needs and when your saving $7-11K between the 3-G and the 5-M there's little justification when all the numbers are added up to choose the BMW over the Infiniti in both models.
I know I'm late with getting in on this thread but I'm bored at work and re-read this and then thought I'll throw my two cents in...
factfinder, first let me tell you that the two car comparisons you are referring to are from two different magazines. In 2004 and 2005 Car and Driver did the comparisons with ELLPS that put the G35 ahead of the TL but just barely. If you read the reviews they actually gave the nod to the TL over the G in several performance categories including acceleration, grip, and slalom with braking being very close. They even liked the interior of the TL best to nearly all the models and likened it to the limosine of the group in terms of available space. Then in the end they couldn't live with the torque steer or the FWD and decided that while the TL has no major weaknesses it just wasn't for them because of it. I'd hardly call that a thrashing.
The other comparison you referred to between the TL-S, IS350, and new G35 was from Road and Track. So, why would they be the same results. It's a different comparator. Just as Consumer Reports is a different comparator. For what it's worth CR did not rate the TL as a family sedan but rather as an Upscale Sedan. And for the first 3 years of the 3rd gen's existance it was # 1 in it's category. Now, it is #3 to the G35 and ES350. Their term for ELLPS. The rate the Accord number one in the family sedan category.
And finally, did you really drive a 3rd gen TL? Because I cannot comprehend how you can see anything about the Accord in it other than both are FWD.
To further your point, kring, the car magazines focus on performance (where BMW is king) whereas CR considers performance, safety, reliability, price and practicality. So the car magazines speak to the car enthusiasts who are most concerned with performance, whereas CR speaks to a more "practical" audience who is also concerned with the other factors. Neither is right and neither is wrong.
kring5, I agree with that post. I think CR is much objective in terms of a review than other publishers. I also think they're method of testing is more sound too. If any of you get a chance and are able to read up on their test methods. They don't performance test the cars until they are broken in, then when they do test they do it extensively over the course of time rather than in a week or weekend. They always use the same track. So, they do the best out of all the publishers to reduce variation.
I believe that the 325i in the 2004/5 issue of Car & Driver was the last generation 3-series. However, I am glad to find a comparo between G35 Sport and 328i in the April issue of C&D which just came out.
Personally, I think the only "comparo" we should care about is our own. Drive both vehicles and make your own decision, based on what's important to you, and not what a magazine thinks.
Bingo! Hey, scottm123, I'm lazy and haven't looked it up online yet...but I believe I read a while back a series of posts from you about clay. Real quick what does the clay do for a car's finish?
Over time, microscopic contaminants cling to your car's finish. If you put your hand into a plastic baggie and glide it across the surface, it should feel like glass. If there is any roughness at all, that's surface contamination.
Clay will remove this from your finish.
Basically, you can get a clay kit which will come with clay and a lubrication, although soapy water will also work. Work the clay into a patty, cover a small surface with lube and lightly rub clay in circular motion to remove contaminants. Work in small areas until car is done. Between sections, knead clay until it appears clean again. Once completely dirty, throw away and replace.
Always clean the car before claying, and clean it again once completed. Clay will also remove wax from the finish, so you will need to wax once the car has been cleaned and dried.
I'd like to clay twice a year, but usually only get to it once, in the Spring... to clean NE's harsh winter crap off of the car.
I am one who will keep a car 8 to 10 years. Looking at the 07 G35 journey, 07 Acura TL and the 07 Honda V6. Drove all three and the G35 has the power but concerned that some gadgets will break ,trunk release looks like it will be a problem...heard door gaskets come off easy. The 07 Acura TL drove nice but the auto trans seemed to shift not as smooth as the G35, but I only drove both for about 10 minutes so I need a longer test drive. The 07 Honda V6 6 speed had that sports feel but obviously the engine was not as punchy as the G35 and Acura TL.Also, the Honda will change their look in 2008...all were 4 door sedans. Reliability is a big concern as well...as stated like to keep a car 8 to 10 years...any suggestions would be appreciated........... :confuse:
Go back and take the G35 and the TL for a longer test drive to see how you truly feel about both cars. If the sales people aren't giving you enough of a drive in the car then ask to drive it without the saleperson in the car. I almost always do this. They just need a copy of your driver's license and insurance and then they make you fill out a form and sign it. I believe it waives them of liability.
I own an '06 TL and I love it. No problems at all. It's the 3rd Acura product I've owned and I haven't had any issues with any of them. I have seen the new G35 but I have not driven. They've improved the interior but I still find it to be lacking to others in the class. The Honda Accord is sort of a different type of car in my opinion. It's a great car for what it's meant for but if you like performance and a bit of luxury it'll probably fall a bit short of your wants.
I don't know why you think the trunk release would break on the G35, it's electronic, just like the TL's.
Anyways, since I own both a TL and G35, maybe I can chime in here...
TL's interior may look nicer than the G35 on the inside, but I still think the G35's interior is made of better materials. The leather in our TL doesn't feel as soft as the leather in our G35, and the TL's leather doesn't wear as well. It has butt-prints where you sit, and the side bolsters are wrinkling. The dash also is not of uniform color. I have to constantly apply NXT to keep it looking nice, becuase otherwise, it looks like it's fading at different rates across the dash. I've never had that problem in any car...
As for the Nav... At first glance, I thought the TL's nav was better, but I actually like the Nav in our G35 better. Personally, I like the Bird's Eye view, because it lets you see ahead better, and better anticipate turns and such.
However, there are three main reasons I like the Nav in the G35 better.
1.) Points of interest... The Points of interest database in the TL is worthless. At least in the Pacific NW regeion. 99% of the time, when I go to enter something it can't find it, yet it IS in the G35's database. I've had the wife call me on the phone when we're meeting somewhere, and she'll have me punch in the place on my nav, and read out the address to her, so she can punch it in manually.
2.) The touch screen in the TL is nice, but it locks up too easily. Maybe ours is just tempermental, but half the time, when I use the touch screen, it locks up for several seconds at a time. I end up using the joystick, since it never seems to lockup that way.
3.) TL's nav screen looks cool, but I find the G35's nav to be more intuitive. If you want to cancel a destination, you hit the cancel button. Not so on the TL. You have to go into the menu, then cancel route. Likewise, on the G's Nav, it's much easier to add a new waypoint.
Anyways, I love both cars, (that's why we have both), I'm just pointing out that the G35's interior is not as bad as people say it is.
It's funny but for the past 3 years when the TL was CRs top pick in the ELLPS category a lot of people dismissed it. Now, they rate the 2nd gen G35 the top pick and suddenly the CR ratings are deemed worthy of following. For those that don't get the subscription note that CR just finished testing two G35 models, the Journey and the G35X. The Journey finished with the top rating but the G35X rated lower than the TL.
The M & the G take first place in their respective categories.
It's funny but for the past 3 years when the TL was CRs top pick in the ELLPS category a lot of people dismissed it. Now, they rate the 2nd gen G35 the top pick and suddenly the CR ratings are deemed worthy of following.
Conversely, it's the TL crowd that bragged about this honor for the past 2-3 years and the G has now taken it.
Umm...that was my point. When the TL had the top honor and TL fans brought this point up everyone else discredited the honor because it was "old lady reviewers" CR. But now that the G35 has taken the top rating over these same people are suddenly stating with pride their the top rated vehicle. You cannot have it both ways.
Comments
Just one comment on the pricing. Under $500/month for the TL-S is certainly a good deal; however, I think the quotes you got for 328i and G35 were too high. I have been shopping and compare these same vehicles for about two months now. They can certainly be leased for under $500/month as well (with no cap cost reduction).
Enjoy your new ride!
:confuse:
As for the comparison of these two fine machines... I just looked on the net for performance numbers on the new G and the new TL-S. I found a comparison on Road & Track. The G is quicker in 0-60 and 1/4 mile (5.4 and 13.9 respectively compared to 5.7 and 14.3). The TL-S has better grip and was faster in the slalom (.91g vs. .88g and 66.0 vs. 65.5). Braking seemed about even (one was slightly better 60-0 and the other was slightly better 80-0). Just looking at these numbers it seems to me there is no statistically significant difference. I'd have to get the actual results of each test trial to know for sure. My point is that these measures of performance (the common ones used by car magazines and reviewers) show both cars to be great performers and there isn't much difference between them.
You should also realize that those numbers were obtained by professionals using special techniques to tweak the most out of these cars. Like brake torquing a car with an automatic or manipulating the revs before dropping the clutch. Most of the drivers out there gunning it from a stop light are just mashing the pedal. And most of the cars sold out there have an automatic transmission. Especially on ELLPS. So, these tests are not indicative of the real world. You performance enthuisiasts out there don't jump on me for that comment. I agree a manual tranny is much better for getting the most performance out of your ride. But you should concede that most drivers, even those in performance cars, use automatics. I don't own several cars. The one I've got has to accommodate several driving conditions and more than one driver.
The difference between RWD and FWD are just not going to be noticed by 99.99% of drivers unless they can push these cars to their limits on a race track. Who's going to do that? So, don't necessarily let that sway your choice. Test driver both vehicles and pick the one that suits you best.
And one final note...when speaking of the appearance of the car you do all realize that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? If it weren't then every car from every manufacturer would look the same as they would mold the cars after the standard image of good looking. There is no right or wrong answer here. It's one person's preference to another.
You know another thing that agitates me in car magazine comparison tests and something that is often talked about in these posts...comparing cars like the BMW 3 series vs. the TL or G35. How can they be in the same class? The Bimmer is a compact car and the TL is a mid size sedan. But we can't really compare the TL to a 5 series because it's much more expensive. In fact most TLs sold even are automatics. Only about 10% of TLs made between 2004 and 2006 had manual transmissions. Since the BMW 330i and now the 335i are so rare (about 15-20% of all 3 series sedans) why not compare it to the 325i and 328i instead? With an automatic. It's a more realistic comparison. I think some people like to compare apples to oranges to make themselves feel good about their purchase. Again, it's a personal choice. Some people like small cars, some like big ones, some like fast ones, some prefer comfort and so it goes...
So, even though both cars perform almost equally, some may have a preference one way or the other. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out as we move forward. Will AWD become more popular? Will FWD stay popular, especially in the snow belt? Will RWD become more popular? Who knows? Thank God for CHOICES!
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070228/auto_reliability.html?.v=3&.pf=insurance
After the test drive I went to the Acura dealership and put down my deposit for a 2007 TL w/nav.
Picking it up on Saturday.
One question I did have to anyone out there who owns a TL, what is the deal with the real time nav? Do you have to pay additional for that feature.
Thanks
I would be interested to see these magazine compare the different trims of the same model (e.g. 328i vs 335i, TL vs TL-S, G35 Journey vs Sports, etc.), and let the readers do their own comparison among different makes/models. Everyone agrees that the comparison should be "apple by apple", but the definition of "apple" is to each his own. Some may go by price, some by size, some by HP, and then there are people who compare SUVs with minivans.
As for your plight of getting 328i info I believe Car and Driver did a comparo of ELLPS in 2004/5 and they included the 325i in the test instead of the 330i. You should be able to find it on their website. I know you said you were looking for the 328i but maybe that will be more helpful to you.
Have an '04 TL w/ Nav and that "feature" wasn't introduced to Acura XM radio user's until the RL but from what I understand is yep, like everything else, real-time traffic is an additional pay-for-use feature. But do some research. I hear that feature is not all it's put out to be (i.e. not "real-time" at all!)
Dave
Consumer reports on the other hand is practical and ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. I personally would prefer they stuck with washers and toothbrushes... but when they do dive into higher level mechanics of cars and such. They take a scientific approach and everything has a defined measurement and grading criteria, and all individual grades roll up to a final score. If a car does 0-60 in 5.2 vs the other 5.3 CR doesn't really put much weight into that, it's considered close enough that it's a wash... and with good reason. The readers can SEE for themselves WHY the #1 car is #1 and why the #4 car is #4... And for 99.9% of the population, the CR method is better suited to needs and when your saving $7-11K between the 3-G and the 5-M there's little justification when all the numbers are added up to choose the BMW over the Infiniti in both models.
factfinder, first let me tell you that the two car comparisons you are referring to are from two different magazines. In 2004 and 2005 Car and Driver did the comparisons with ELLPS that put the G35 ahead of the TL but just barely. If you read the reviews they actually gave the nod to the TL over the G in several performance categories including acceleration, grip, and slalom with braking being very close. They even liked the interior of the TL best to nearly all the models and likened it to the limosine of the group in terms of available space. Then in the end they couldn't live with the torque steer or the FWD and decided that while the TL has no major weaknesses it just wasn't for them because of it. I'd hardly call that a thrashing.
The other comparison you referred to between the TL-S, IS350, and new G35 was from Road and Track. So, why would they be the same results. It's a different comparator. Just as Consumer Reports is a different comparator. For what it's worth CR did not rate the TL as a family sedan but rather as an Upscale Sedan. And for the first 3 years of the 3rd gen's existance it was # 1 in it's category. Now, it is #3 to the G35 and ES350. Their term for ELLPS. The rate the Accord number one in the family sedan category.
And finally, did you really drive a 3rd gen TL? Because I cannot comprehend how you can see anything about the Accord in it other than both are FWD.
Drive both vehicles and make your own decision, based on what's important to you, and not what a magazine thinks.
If you put your hand into a plastic baggie and glide it across the surface, it should feel like glass.
If there is any roughness at all, that's surface contamination.
Clay will remove this from your finish.
Basically, you can get a clay kit which will come with clay and a lubrication, although soapy water will also work.
Work the clay into a patty, cover a small surface with lube and lightly rub clay in circular motion to remove contaminants. Work in small areas until car is done.
Between sections, knead clay until it appears clean again.
Once completely dirty, throw away and replace.
Always clean the car before claying, and clean it again once completed.
Clay will also remove wax from the finish, so you will need to wax once the car has been cleaned and dried.
I'd like to clay twice a year, but usually only get to it once, in the Spring... to clean NE's harsh winter crap off of the car.
Here's a link for more info
Meguiar's FAQ
Here's a quick walkthrough:
Clay Magic Tutorial
TL will change soon- sometime next year.
I own an '06 TL and I love it. No problems at all. It's the 3rd Acura product I've owned and I haven't had any issues with any of them. I have seen the new G35 but I have not driven. They've improved the interior but I still find it to be lacking to others in the class. The Honda Accord is sort of a different type of car in my opinion. It's a great car for what it's meant for but if you like performance and a bit of luxury it'll probably fall a bit short of your wants.
Anyways, since I own both a TL and G35, maybe I can chime in here...
TL's interior may look nicer than the G35 on the inside, but I still think the G35's interior is made of better materials. The leather in our TL doesn't feel as soft as the leather in our G35, and the TL's leather doesn't wear as well. It has butt-prints where you sit, and the side bolsters are wrinkling. The dash also is not of uniform color. I have to constantly apply NXT to keep it looking nice, becuase otherwise, it looks like it's fading at different rates across the dash. I've never had that problem in any car...
As for the Nav... At first glance, I thought the TL's nav was better, but I actually like the Nav in our G35 better. Personally, I like the Bird's Eye view, because it lets you see ahead better, and better anticipate turns and such.
However, there are three main reasons I like the Nav in the G35 better.
1.) Points of interest... The Points of interest database in the TL is worthless. At least in the Pacific NW regeion. 99% of the time, when I go to enter something it can't find it, yet it IS in the G35's database. I've had the wife call me on the phone when we're meeting somewhere, and she'll have me punch in the place on my nav, and read out the address to her, so she can punch it in manually.
2.) The touch screen in the TL is nice, but it locks up too easily. Maybe ours is just tempermental, but half the time, when I use the touch screen, it locks up for several seconds at a time. I end up using the joystick, since it never seems to lockup that way.
3.) TL's nav screen looks cool, but I find the G35's nav to be more intuitive. If you want to cancel a destination, you hit the cancel button. Not so on the TL. You have to go into the menu, then cancel route. Likewise, on the G's Nav, it's much easier to add a new waypoint.
Anyways, I love both cars, (that's why we have both), I'm just pointing out that the G35's interior is not as bad as people say it is.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/top-picks-for-2007-4-07/overvie- w/0704_top-picks-2007.htm
It's funny but for the past 3 years when the TL was CRs top pick in the ELLPS category a lot of people dismissed it. Now, they rate the 2nd gen G35 the top pick and suddenly the CR ratings are deemed worthy of following.
Conversely, it's the TL crowd that bragged about this honor for the past 2-3 years and the G has now taken it.
I honestly don't care what any magazine says.
You know the ole saying about opinions...