Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Comments
Tire rack: If you put the stock spare on and have a slightly different size on the other rear wheel this should not hurt the LSD unless you go around tring to spin the wheels. Mitsubishi shop agreed. both pointed out that many makes/models with rear LSD dont even have full sized spare. thats good news since now we can go to a 6 ply tire, all 75 series, and not have to worry about mixing with stock tire or buying 5 tires and having to throw away the spare cover which will not fit anything larger.
Tire rack: The Bridgestone Deuler Revo will be more quite and have longer wet weather traction throughout the life of the tire vs the Yok Geo A/T plus 2 which will have better off road ability, be a little more noisy and my not have the same degree of wet traction through its life. I am attempting to confirm the wet weather traction issue with Yokahama. Apparently the tire rack guy believes that the Bridgestone rubber is different in that it cures as the road heats it and therefor does not become hard/glazed over time like other tires might. The problem I have with this is that it is rated 500 and the Yok 360 (stock yok for comparison is 200). generally a longer lasting tire is harder rubber and trades off wet weather traction so the Yok should be at least as good?
Lastly, Yokahama confirmed that the stock Yok Geo have floppy sidewalls and a 200 rating and that any aftermarket tire will feel better and stiffer. Seems that the car companies always put a soft tire on for ride softness. So, perhaps a replacement 4 ply would feel better and no need to go to 6 ply which may be too stiff.
If the former then the 285/55 might be too wide if you want to keep the outer edge of the tire inside the body. Dirt would be sent down the side of the Montero like crazy. The 255/50 seem much too small to me but I dont have a calculator to see how much overall diameter would be lost. This might make the rig look like a big monster on little tires and throw off the speedometer more than you might like.
If you want more stability, less feeling of roll and dont want it to look like a modified street truck then a good 6 ply tire might help. This would definitly maintain the off road capability and stiffen the tire. Almost everyone putting on even an aftermarket 4-ply have noticed an improvement for the reasons I stated on an earlier post.
The REVOS was out of balance after 5000 miles...and my tire shop could not re-balance them. Therefore, i gave up on them. BTW, i was one of the first person in the country to get the REVOS!
Does anyone had checked theirs at 72-78mph and had the same problem?
Happy New Year To ALL!!!
http://www.bridgestone-usa.com/tech/index.asp
Driveline: My dealer didnt feel or hear anything today. I am going to pick it up and drive with him. I swear there is a slight vibration and I have had a driveshaft problem on an old Ford so I know what it feels like. This time it is subtle and I know that one other 01 was brought in and had it replaced. I too dont want to let the warrenty run out or worse yet have a u-joint fail 10miles from the nearest services. Will let you know.
BTW, i drive quite a bit...that is why, i accumulated 5000 miles in a short few months.
Anyway, the REVOs did OK in off-roading, but they do lack the off-roading layers to protect it. It does have a semi-rim protector, which is nice.
The tire shop who sold me the REVOs is small. Therefore, part of the balancing problem could be due to the tire shop. However, based on my experience with Bridgestones in the past with new products, i chose to go with something that is proven, BFG AT KO tires. To my surprise, they have done great. I love them and highly recommends them! Better than REVOs in off-roading, but not as good as a mud-terrain tire.
Everyone on the tire rack survey liked them so much they took first place away from the Yok Geolander A/T plus 2 but the survey size was much smaller. The Tire rack guy tried the tires at the test track and stated they kept up with every other competitor and a third local shop thought the new Revo's were light years ahead of the old Deulers.
The guy at the tire rack pointed me to the Revo if you want a slant toward a quiter, better wet tire and to the Yok for better off road (but more noise). Two shops have told me that the two layer tread design of the Bridgestone will result in consistent dry and wet traction throughout the life of the tire, thats the AQII portion of the Revo AQII, whereas other tires will loose the initial good traction as the tread wears down and hardens.
I am waiting for Yok to respond to my question directed at this point.
Since Bridgestone is made in Japan and Firestone in the US and since Firestone made an OEM tire that failed, probably due to pressure from Ford to make a softer sidewall to compensate for poor suspension I am hoping the Bridgestones will be of higher quality and nothing like Firestone tires in the US.
When Yok comments on loss of wet traction over the life of the tire I will post becasue that tire looks good too.
In a recent USAToday article review by James Healy (Nov 1, 2002) he writes this about the 2003 4Runner:
One potential problem: Toyota has tuned its traction control system to intrude aggressively, first braking spinning wheels, then cutting engine power. Toyota views that as a safety benefit because it slows you on slick surfaces. It can be a disaster if you're trying to make way in slush or on icy roads.' and goes on to write
'If the traction control intrudes on some surfaces as much as Toyota suggests, that would change 4Runner's grade from pass to fail. But it's innocent until proved otherwise.
...if the truck comes to a near halt on wintry terrain, that's bad. Not the right approach, no matter what Toyota or anybody else says. You buy an SUV to go in muck, not be nannied to a standstill.'
Has anyone noticed if the traction control has been a problem in scenarios as James mentioned above?
Also, is there any mechanical reason why one couldn't have the X-REAS added to the SR5? I know it is not a factory option but I can't afford the limited and hoping to get a SR5 without the cladding at some point ( I think the Sport is still suppose to have it plus I don't like the fake hood scoop). I don't even know if the dealer would add it but just wondering why they wouldn't.
Thanks for any info.
BTW, aren't your skidplates made of PLASTIC??!! I believe only the front half of the front skidplate is made of steel...for show apparently!! Tough off-roader, i see...Geez...don't even get me going!
Not too bad for an "inferior" system, right Brill??
Really now, its just rhetorical to suggest that current mags look for anything close to a good 4wd SUV. They are looking for street biased vehicles and dont often put the proper mix together to review.
The Volvo would probably beat the LC and Lexus given their review criteria, did they put it in the test? That was picked number one this year in another mag as well. Now, go take a look under the Volvo. The darn exhaust pipe runs so low and right in the middle that it is begging to get caught and ripped off.
People need to know what the strengths and weaknesses of
the SUV they are considering, not that a particular SUV won a
title. This doesnt tell the consumer what they need to know
with repect to what they need for their individual needs.
There are many fine SUV's out there now and the right choice is
dependent on individual needs.
Oh, I believe the MB would have won if not for the price.
I think they mentioned it had the most capable off road system with full locking and individually controlled front, rear and center differentials.
I think the new Mitsubishi went to a Yaw control system as well so obviously the car companies believe this is a good way to go. I will just wait on the sideline until they get it right.
I will say the same of Mitsu if their system turns off while braking
as well. Most people panic if they loose traction in an icy corner
and hit the break. Having a place in the moutains I have seen this time and time again. Its scary to loose control and I can understand
why the average person does what he/she does.
He tried to say that it could be the tires before our test together but this is definitely not an out of balance tire, slipped belt, etc.
I have it on the record now and who knows, if it seems to be getting worse or even if it doesnt I might take it to a local shop and test it. The dealer couldnt do this and worse yet, I said, if I take it to a shop and they find it out of balance will you then pay for it...he said no.
I hate dealing with dealers
Stop "think" and prove to me that Toyota stability system is inferior to other systems! Again, my point is, i would rather have it than not. Just turn it off in snow or when off-roading...VERY SIMPLE.
VSC, stability control, intervenes BEFORE (emphasis is BEFORE) the driver knows he/she is slipping!! Read this sentence again please.
You never answered my statement about PLASTIC skidplates...strange isn't it?? Sad part is that Mitsu was CLEARLY trying to deceive customer by making the front half of the front skidplate steel, while the lower portion plastic. Last time i checked, I don't even think you have a skidplate (plastic or steel) for the transfer case!!
Sorry, the Montero name went down the drain with this latest model. IRS...yet, still roll-over?!
What concerns me more is that when a clip such as the one posted in the Toyota section or a report of a 4wd tester (actually it was several but all in the same reveiw) not thinking the current VSC/ATRAC is that great there does not seem to be the same objectivity placed on this info as there is on the "positive" reports.
We all know why this happens, we are only human, and often defensive about our positions. But to be truely objective would be to lend the same considerations to both the negatives and positives. I can make you a list of both for the Montero if it would make you feel better but we have been pointing them out all along as most of the Montero owners here have been very honest about our SUV strengths and weaknesses.
It would be nice to sit back and just compliment all the good things about our SUV but this is not the whole reason we are here. There are others that read this site and want to know the weaknesses as well. I dont mind pointing them out on the Montero (or other SUV) if it will help someone avoid a 35,000 dollar mistake for them.
Oh ya, almost forgot the plastic part issue. I dont like that piece either and I broke it changing my oil. Plastic is fine but the gauge needs to be increased or add a nice metal piece. JAOS makes some nice skid plates but I try to avoid rocks head on. Better to plant a wheel on them if you can. My front ground clearence is now nearly 11-12inches with the ARB springs so have not had too many ground clearence issues.
Repeat:
VSC, stability control, intervenes BEFORE (emphasis is BEFORE) the driver knows he/she is slipping!!
Unless you're an idiot and TRY to peel out in a low-traction situation, you will NEVER have a problem with it, especially when you're in 4wd.
BTW, my 4Runner on STOCK springs with (265/75/16) tires have 10.6" of true ground clearance...that is, it is 10.6" from the ground up to the LOWEST point of the truck, including control arms. Oh yeah, it has full steel skids for protection, including transfer case.
I want to add a 20gb Mp3 (probably Neo car jukebox 25)--need to make sure there is a line in to the stereo though (you can also use an FM modulator with the Neo car jukebox, but with a significant loss of sound quality). If there is a line in for a cd changer and I thing (and hope) there is, this should work...
Anyone seen the back of the unit?
Stereo... The Factory system is junk. Sorry. If you really want a good system. Pull everything out and replace it. I added an amp and sub as well. No MP3 in mine though.
Good Luck
Drew
I also found it interesting that they picked the Lexus but criticized the low ground clearence, stating that they were suprised the side steps were still on the vehicle after the testing. Additionally, the 4 runner couldnt make it up the sand hill without turning off the traction control. To be fair, this is the same system on the Lexus so it also would have the same problem. Now when is someone going to know to do this, before you get stuck in the mud, snow, sand? The reviewers noted that it takes too much wheel spin to activate these systems. It was interesting that the Montero, with its electronic system, made it up the sand hill. I dont know the details of how it works but perhaps it is more refined like the new MB and Volvo. I agree that the plastic on the fenders in the rear could get caught in the sand. I dont really like the way they did the fenders.
I rasied my Montero with an aftermarket spring/shock kit and now have 12 inches ground clearence and better handling. This puts the fenders more out of the way. As far as the skid plates, as I said, I dont like them but thats an easy thing to change, and not too expensive.
I can add some more details when I get my magazine back from my friend who also found it strikingly sad that a 4wd magazine would rate the vehicles this way. It was clear to me once again that they dont have the electronic systems up to speed yet, I will stick with manual or mechanical engagement for now thank you. Even the H2 Hummer has a switchable locking rear diff for the difficult stuff because they know the electronic system wont handle these condtions. Car/Driver yesterday stated the H1 Hummer is the best off road vehicle followed by the H2. The H2 I think went to electronic and I believe dropped the rear independent suspension. These probably resulted in the reduced ability off road as I dont know of anything else to account for it.
Did you notice the mix of vehicles? Strange, little jeep to Ford Excursion (now there is an off road truck?) Where was the new Volvo (or LR, or MB), that should have beat them all given thier rating scheme!
I think they really need to do a better comparison job in these reviews. I would break them up by vehicle intent and price. Most people cant afford an H2 Hummer or Lexus and most people pick thier SUV to perform a certain function. Then, I would make sure all the makes/models are included in each review, even if you have to go back a model year. Not just the newest vehicle. That way everyone is represented. The newest vehicle is not always the best.
You can look up some things here
http://carsales.com.au
Interesting, but the approach, departure and breakover angles as well has ground clearence on the H2 is not much different than the Montero. The departure angle is the only thing that is significantly better and a definite weakness in the new Montero IMO. After raising my Montero 2.5 inches it is not as bad but still could be improved.
http://www.4x4review.com/news/2003-H2-Hummer.asp
Ok, do YOU lock your center diff when off-roading?? Of course, you do. Same with 4Runner. Once you lock it, which is easy to do, VSC is OFF...therefore, NO cutting in engine power. This is the LAST time i am stating this...try and understand! It is NOT rocket-science!
I have the 3rd gen 4Runner (2002), not the new one. The 2002 4Runner has about 10" of TRUE ground clearance stock (11" to frame, which is what is stated in brochure).
Now, wheelspin is bad?? YOU criticized the 4Runner previously for NOT letting you spin your wheels in mud. Now, you criticized it for allowing too much??? Make up your mind!!
BTW, stop it! Really, CAN YOU PROVE TO ME that the Toyota system is inferior to any other system?????????? Really, i am getting tired of your WEAK, UNsubstantiated argument!
I keep on reading, "I think" in your statements...do you know or don't you know???
Brill, your Montero has a pathetic departure angle! And the spare is not even under the car!
You want to know what a stock 3rd gen 4Runner (1996-2002) can do, check this link out:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128
Get a HUMMER H2 brochure, it will explain to you why they drop the rear independent suspension!
BTW, the Hummer H1 has ELECTRONIC TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEM! It also has a Torsen center diff.
Please no more of the same blah, blah, junk that you've been preaching.
Even IF it does, why is it bad?? All Toyota SUVs now have Electronic BrakeForce Distribution, which gives the most braking power to the wheel with the most traction...which is ALL that matters when braking into a corner!!!!! Mitsu has this system too.
Show me the money!
Any why would Toyota decide to make a different system from everyone else???
The system shutting off with braking came from the Sequoia
site I believe.
Hey, bottom line, you have the Toyota and you are happy with it. I am
happy you are happy but you can bet that the best systems will be manual or mechanically triggered and/or have swithes to lock the front, center and rear diff or have modifications like the Hummer that can alter the electronics so that wheel spin is allowed in order to seach for the most traction and not brake the wheels or slow the engine in sandy, muddy or deep snow conditions.
I think Volvo and MB have already gone that way. The New Montero
may have as well as it didnt bog down in the test running up the sand dune and you can bet a quality company like Toyota wont be far behind.
Question: Can you lock the center diff in the new LC/Sequoia/4 runner in 4wd Hi range or just low range?
Here is the review from Australia, remeber the 2000 Pajero is the same as the 2001 Montero.
November 2000: The motoring clubs - NRMA, RACV, RAASA, RACQ, RACT, AANT and RACWA - have made their choices in the Australia's Best Cars Awards. Mitsubishi's new Pajero GLS is the best 4WD, and the Nimbus is the best people mover. "On the road, the Pajero delivers class-leading ride, handling and steering, and braking, attracting consistently good scores. In this respect it makes the LandCruiser feel like a truck."
Maybe, the Montero automatically shuts off it's skid control when you go into 4-HI (which locks the center diff, right?)...the 4Runner just has more options (4-HI or LO with and without center diff lock).
So, because i don't see any glaring negatives about the 4Runner. Oh yeah, the ride is somewhat bouncy. Are you happy, now? Yeah, the interior is also tight. That's about it. Almost forgot, i wish it had real wood.
But, in terms of off-roading, it has no faults. And that is what we're mainly talking about.
Hey, i thought you just criticized the 4Runner for allowing TOO much wheelspin...i am confused at your statements! Please clarify.
OK, what has Volvo done again??
November 2000...yeah, OK...Montero is the best. Sorry i ever doubted you.
Again, SIMPLY lock the center diff when off-roading (which you SHOULD anyway), and the 4Runner will run with the best of them!
Did you notice the 3rd gen 4Runner's IMPRESSIVE approach/departure/breakover angles??? How about that 27" water fording! How about that 42 degree incline and 41 degree side slope! Remember, the 4runner is body-on-frame (not low-to-ground unibody)...thus, these numbers are quite impressive.
I am glad that you're happy with the Montero. But, please no need to spam about Toyota SUV when the one you have is FAR from perfect...even farther when off-roading.
And from reading your response, either you're blind and therefore unable to read my response...OR you're extremely biased??
How do we even know that Toyota's VSC system shuts off when braking?? Are there any official information on this??
Even IF it does, why is it bad?? All Toyota SUVs now have Electronic BrakeForce Distribution (EBD), which gives the most braking power to the wheel with the most traction...which is ALL that matters when braking into a corner!!!!! Mitsu has this system too.
Why is VSC off in a corner when braking bad?? Expecially when a vehicle has EBD???
Thanks.
I will take it to him but he claims he cant feel it. I can so where the hell to I go from here. I considered speaking with the manager above him but really dont want to piss him off if he really feels that he cant detect it.
The H2 Hummer has an electronically controlled system similar to the Toyota but much more controllable (as does the expensive and ugly, IMO, larger MB). What they found was that on sand, mud, deep slippery stuff that the system would break the wheels at a time where continued wheel spin was better. As such they have a switch that you hit to allow for wheel spin, over riding the electronic system to some degree, or at least this is what I think it does per the H2 link I posted above.
This is dead on consistent with what I have been saying (and other more knowledgable 4wd reviewers have been saying) about the weakness of the current Toyota system. On sand or other deep slippery stuff you have no way to do this. As such the 4 Runner "imediately bogged" tring to climb the sand hill and the Sequoia lost so much monentum that the reviewer felt like or did get stuck crossing a sandy dry river.
It makes sense if you think about it. I would rather have as many wheels positively engaged, not braking and the motor full bore in loose conditions such as these. Anything less and you loose momentum, sink in deeper and get stuck.
VSC is essentially Yaw control. If you are going around a corner on ice and start slipping chances are no VSC system will save you anyway but......
if you panic and hit the brakes to try to slow down and the system shuts off then it cant do anything to help correct your skid. If you keep your foot off the brakes then you have no chance of slowing (before impact) and have to hope that the VSC will pull you out of a crash.
Even if it could, how many people will not hit the brakes? How long has it taken to even get some people driving the anti lock brakes correctly and not pump them?
Personally, I think that I would teach my wife and kid to drive on ice the old fashion way. I have had much too much experience on that stuff and I dont think anything really helps other than good tires, chains and proper driving. Usually someone is going too fast and anti lock brakes, VSC, nothing is going to stop the vehicle from sliding into a car or off the road.
Thank you!
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/40/01402657.html
I hope it really is a drive line vibration now that I have everyone in the world looking in to it. I would feel bad if it turns out to be nothing...but I doubt it.
Didn't FOURHWEELER able to make it up the hill when they turn skid control OFF on the 4Runner?????? Broken record: just lock the center differential when off-roading!!!
I can not believe some one is so proud of a piece of straight metal (skid plate) over a beautiful rear independent set up that the 4Runner can not have at any price. Not only that, the 4Runner have a rough ride that would cause internal injury to its passengers. If the Montero is not the best, it is still better than the last generation 4Runner. Before I buy the Montero, I was seriously considering the 4Runner, but just after one drive turned me away for good. But then we are only talking about a car/SUV right? no need to get so emotional. Peace.