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Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Too funny, I had a 1948 Cadillac with a V8 flathead engine. It would burn about a 2.5 gallons of RayLube with every tank of gas. One of the many cars I owned while working at the wrecking yard during High School.

    I don't miss those old beaters much.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    My old hybrid maybe uses a quart per 800-1000 miles, but it does so in a visible way. Cancels out many Prius :shades:
  • monkstermanmonksterman Member Posts: 46
    Anybody else catch the irony of the Forbes "thought for the day" when you click on the link Steve has a couple of his posts back?!?

    “ We have to live today by what truth we can get today and be ready tomorrow to call it falsehood. ”

    — William James

    Well, I refuse to live by today's "truths". And, moreover, though it's way past tomorrow already, that won't stop the, ahem, wingnuts from continuined shouting to the heavens you know what. :surprise:

    Oh, BTW: Be sure and keep us up to date Steve on Ms. 5 kids answer/reaction when you get the chance to query her!!!!! I'm sure it'll be :sick:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, I live in a small town where everyone knows everyone else's business. So you have to pick your battles and you don't want to make an enemy needlessly. You might want to be able to buy their chickens or borrow their plow one day. :-)

    Not to mention that when you live in an economically depressed area, you may not be able to afford to be as green as you might otherwise like. You have to drive for "bigger" shopping and if someone proposes a strip mine or clearcut, no one is going to oppose it too loudly (and expect not to get stoned, lol).

    Not to get too far afield, but when you do resource extraction and don't add value (like shipping raw logs to Taiwan or crude oil to China via the proposed Keystone pipeline or Kentucky mountaintops to Korea), you're just delaying the pain for some short term wages. And when the mines play out and the mills close and the profits have gone back to Boston, well, it gets downright hard to make a living. Even the Greens have mostly figured that out.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When being Green takes food off your table and causes you to lose your home, you may want to reassess your thinking. I think places like WV where coal has fed the people for a very long time is an example.

    As far as Keystone, My understanding is the crude will flow to the refineries in TX and refined products will be shipped from there increasing our exports. If Canada builds a pipeline to the Pacific then Crude will be shipped directly to China. There has been a LOT of misinformation on the whole Canadian Tar Sands oil business. I would rather increase oil imports from Canada and cut imports from countries like Venezuela, as long as they act like enemies.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Adapt or die. Anyone who has planned is to remain employed in old energy the rest of his life is an idiot, or really, really close to retirement.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would imagine a lot of young people would love to have a good job in the green energy arena. They are just NOT materializing. We are letting other countries do the dirty work associated with green products, and we are losing out.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Anyone who thinks that there is currently a viable alternative to oil, coal, natural gas and nuclear are just fooling themselves. We should just use what we have while continuing to look for something else that works.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Well, you've included pretty much everything but wind and solar pipe dreams, so it is hard to argue with you.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am kind of hopeful that Thorium nuclear becomes a reality. Will China leap to the forefront and leave US in the dust and 20th century?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nuclear-power-entrepreneur- s-push-thorium-as-a-fuel/2011/12/15/gIQALTinPR_story.html
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    So, you are saying that the people on this planet 300-500-however-many-years from now, who will be FORCED to adopt something other than fossil fuels, are smarter than we are?

    I think we just need more motivation.

    Right now, fossil fuels seem like an "unlimited source of power" so the situation does not appear critical.

    It will someday be.

    And the sun is STILL providing a full compliment of solar power to the Earf every day. Winds blow. Tides roll on. The interior of the Earf is still hot.

    All the alternatives are THERE, NOW. We just don't have the political will to start developing them as we should be doing.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    The people won't be any smarter 500 years from now, but they will have the benefit of 500 more years of accumulated knowledge.

    I don't think we are any smarter than people were 500 years ago. We just have the benefit of 500 more years of accumulated knowledge than they did.

    Hopefully, all the alternatives are not there yet because the ones we have now don't work given our current knowledge level. Maybe they will in 500 years.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It works now, when done right. I've got solar panels on my home and my electric bill is $16.51 for 7 months out of the year.

    There are zero- and negative-footprint homes all over the world.

    Like I said - we just need the POLITICAL WILL to step away from the oil cartels and "git 'er done."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is not really true. You have to amortize the cost of the Solar panels into your electric bill. Our local solar company says anyone paying less than $150 per month will not benefit from solar. Then factor in the possible shorter life of the PV cells in the hot desert areas. A 25 year warranty is meaningless if the company no longer exists. Solar companies are dropping like flies in the USA. And there is also the cost in pollution in the manufacture of any alternative. I would like to see one of those zero or negative footprint homes. The production of building materials cannot be left out of the equation and be realistic.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "I would like to see one of those zero or negative footprint homes."

    Google it and ye shall find:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/30/AR2010043000043.- html

    http://www.ecogeek.org/component/content/article/1868

    http://www.off-grid.net/2012/03/26/net-zero-homes-do-the-math/

    And no, the production of the building materials need not be considered, because that has to happen with ANY kind of home.

    And YES, my electric bill is $16.51 per month for 7 months of the year. I do pay $41 per month for the solar panel lease, but my ELECTRICITY bill is only $16.51. The least I have paid TOTAL COST per month is $57.51 per month and the MOST is $125.82 since my solar panels have gone on my roof.

    Compare that to the AVERAGE August electric bill for homes my size in Phoenix which is $225, and I'm paying only 55% of what I should be paying.

    Solar works. Solar done completely correctly can provide more than 100% of a home's needs.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are a funny guy. Trying to tell us that the cost to the environment of building a home is not part of the equation. You are sounding like Al Gore and his $11 million beach front home and 100 foot biodiesel yacht with no supply of biodiesel available. How much specialized highly polluting products went into building a $1.8 million home? I can see a net zero home built out of abobe with water from a spring and a couple solar panels to keep the batteries charged up. You know of course all the concrete is highly polluting in manufacture. etc etc. You have not sold me...

    Someone is wasting natural resources if their electric bill at your rates is $225 in the hot months. My largest bill to date in my 3000 foot home all on one level with two complete AC systems was $180. I got rid of the hot tub we never used and it went down by $30 the next month. Our average last year with our horrible CA electric rates was $93 per month. Our neighbor with a smaller home has bills as high as $400. Waste not want not is my motto. Never use the AC below 80 degrees. That is usually late in the afternoon for about an hour.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Well our state needs to save some $ and wants to reduce the usage of fossil fuels. So here's their idea.

    Turning off the streetlights will also help the bureau comply with Gov. John H. Lynch’s executive order to have the state government cut fossil fuel use.

    “Ultimately we’re driving to make smart decisions not only with budget cuts but also with energy consumption,” Boynton said.


    http://www.sentinelsource.com/news/local/state-proposes-cutting-hundreds-of-regi- on-s-streetlights/article_c99b9b4e-2874-5d31-91c5-d65f4910226f.html

    How much $ is the State going to save when they get sued, when some accidents occur at night in those areas?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2012
    They turned off every other one around here right about the time we moved up. I like the dark skies. Most Boise neighborhoods were good that way too.

    Now if I could just get the neighbors to toss their solar yard lights. It's looks like O'Hare International in the side yards until the batteries dim around 3 am.

    btw, did you get snow the last day or two?
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    No the snow was to the west AFAIK. Central PA, and parts of NY. We're back to normal weather: 30's at night, 50's during the day. I run the electric space heaters I have rather than the oil; I'm out of dry wood.

    Of note in that article though - is that lighting does use fossil fuels. So anyone using an EV is still burning fossil fuels, unless they are a Net Generator using solar. With so little solar energy available here in the NE year-round, we're going to rely on larsb and his neighbors, to cover the SW in solar panels. C'mon larsb, get those "solar ranches" about the size of the cattle ranches in TX!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Most large solar projects are scams like Wind Farms. A few become useful at a very high cost to consumers. I would imagine they will see the same fate the wind farms from the 1970s and 80s saw. Purely redistribution of wealth from the tax payers to the rich and powerful.

    (Reuters) - Solar Trust of America LLC, which holds the development rights for the world's largest solar power project, on Monday filed for bankruptcy protection after its majority owner began insolvency proceedings in Germany.

    The Oakland-based company has held rights for the 1,000-megawatt Blythe Solar Power Project in the Southern California desert, which last April won $2.1 billion of conditional loan guarantees from the U.S. Department of Energy. It is unclear how the bankruptcy will affect that project.

    Solar Trust said it ran short of liquidity after Solar Millennium AG (S2MG.DE), which holds a 70 percent stake, sought court protection in December.

    Solar Millennium then tried to sell that stake to solarhybrid AG (SHLG.DE), but that transaction collapsed when solarhybrid also sought court protection in Germany.


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/02/us-solartrust-bankruptcy-idUSBRE8310ZV- 20120402

    Is anyone keeping an official list? By our count, so far we have seen the following ‘green energy’ companies go under: Solyndra, Abound Solar, Energy Conversion Devices, Bright Source, LSP Energy, Evergreen Solar, Ener1, SunPower, Beacon Power, Ecotality, A123, Uni-Solar, Azure Dynamics. And now, Solar Trust.

    Hopefully Larsb solar keeps working and he does not become a victim of trying to go green like I did in the 1980s.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    image

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "Trying to tell us that the cost to the environment of building a home is not part of the equation."

    No, you misunderstood me, as you are wont to do..... :shades:

    Of COURSE it's figured into the equation.

    But a properly performed "green build" is (I would venture to guess) hardly any more polluting in manufacturing process than a normal "cookie cutter polluting" home, if the homes are of equal size.

    And generally, "green homes" end up being smaller because they waste less space as a part of the efficiency equation.

    And (as we know from our discussion of Hybrid vehicles) the END RESULT will ALWAYS be that the "total lifetime pollution" of the green home will ALWAYS BE LESS than the similar pollution of a like-sized home which pollutes normally.

    And what we care about most is the FUTURE, not the PAST. What little pollution my house does NOW and into the future is much more critical than the pollution if left behind 10 years ago when the parts were being manufactured.

    Why, you ask?

    Because you can make the air cleaner in the FUTURE, but you cannot make the air cleaner in the PAST.

    Remember that. Don't make me remind you later. :);)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    97% of Americans overestimate cost of installing solar:

    image

    Forty percent of the 2,200 adults surveyed think installing solar requires $20,000 or more in upfront costs. Only three percent accurately understand that installing solar can cost less than $1,000 upfront, which is possible because companies like SunRun, SolarCity and Sungevity all offer solar financing that allows homeowners to lease the panels without putting any money down. SunRun’s solar power service, also known as third-party-owned solar, is structured similarly to its rivals. The company owns, insures, monitors and maintains solar panels on the homeowner’s roof. In return, the homeowner pays a monthly rate over a 20-year period.

    Market share for third-party solar has grown, particularly in California where it reached 75 percent of the home solar market in February of this year. In Massachusetts, the share for third-party solar is more than 80 percent.


    Full Story Click Here
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My quote came out similar to the fellow writing your article:

    I would pay an average of $91 a month. So, under that scenario, I’m actually spending about $500 more a year.

    The ad I heard on the radio this morning for solar, stated if your electricity averages over $150 per month they will come out and give you an estimate for solar. I am still leery of longevity of solar panels. I got burnt good in Havasu. Too many companies going broke to be able to depend on the warranty. The lease I was offered was actually able to put a lien on your property if you quit paying for any reason. They state on the ad you posted maintenance. Does that mean they come and wash the dirt and dust off on a regular basis?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary - you are 100% covered with a LEASED system.

    Because even if the company goes down, the LEASE will be taken over by another company. If it does NOT, then you would be free and clear. Because if no one is collecting your lease payments, then......

    Even if the original company goes down, SOMEONE will take on that lease and keep collecting from you.

    Their legal obligation will REMAIN IN PLACE regardless of who OWNS *THAT END* of the lease !!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Without reading the lease agreement I would be in the dark. The fellow from SolarWorld that came and gave me an estimate said the lease was through a separate leasing company. Which does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

    The Leasing company is NOT on the hook for the warranty if SolarWorld goes broke.

    2nd the lease payment goes up by 3% every year. My electricity rates have not gone up in the 5 years I have lived in this home.

    Lastly my roofer friend said he has had to repair several roofs damaged by solar panel installations. Once you break through the tar paper seal it is difficult to keep the water out. Especially on concrete tile roofs like mine. His advice to me was put them along side the home.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Solar City is the leader in installs nationwide. I have never heard of a leak from a Solar City install.

    Plus, I live in PHX - not much rain here to worry about !!

    And yes, it goes up every year. But it started SO LOW, that it won't be that much of a bump every year. In addition, my kids will be out of the house in "not long" and then my usage will drop a LOT.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Who does Solar City get their PV cells from? Solar World is the only USA manufacturer left as far as I can tell. The Chinese are eating our lunch on producing solar cells. Too bad the Green Agenda is a total flop for the US workers.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited April 2012
    Mine came from Evergreen Solar in Massachusetts - "Made in the USA" at THAT TIME.

    But now Evergreen is a Chinese/German company.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Last I read the Chinese are selling at 85 cents per watt. US made are $2.25 per watt. We need tariffs on crap from China or we will be gobbled up by them.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    (Reuters) - Large wind farms might have a warming effect on the local climate, research in the United States showed on Sunday, casting a shadow over the long-term sustainability of wind power.

    Researchers at the State University of New York at Albany analysed the satellite data of areas around large wind farms in Texas, where four of the world's largest farms are located, over the period 2003 to 2011.

    The results, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, showed a warming trend of up to 0.72 degrees Celsius per decade in areas over the farms, compared with nearby regions without the farms.

    "We attribute this warming primarily to wind farms," the study said. The temperature change could be due to the effects of the energy expelled by farms and the movement and turbulence generated by turbine rotors, it said.


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/29/us-wind-farms-climate-idUSBRE83S0BG201- 20429
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Solyndra Not Dealing With Toxic Waste At Milpitas Facility

    Swardenski told CBS 5 the disposal process is going smoothly in Fremont, but what about nearby Milpitas? Solyndra leased a building on California Circle for the final assembly of its solar panels. But the cleanup at the leased building in Milpitas is in limbo, because Solyndra doesn’t want to pay.

    CBS 5 found the building locked up, with no one around. At the back, a hazardous storage area was found. There were discarded buckets half filled with liquids and barrels labeled “hazardous waste.”

    The building’s owner, a company called iStar, claimed in court documents, “there may be serious environmental, health and safety issues” at the premises. According to the documents, they include, “numerous containers of solvents and chemicals…and processing equipment contaminated with lead.”

    “Essentially it looks like they left a pretty big mess behind,” San Jose State Assistant Professor Dustin Mulvaney told CBS 5. Mulvaney has written a white paper (.pdf) on solar industry waste for the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition.

    Looking at CBS 5’s video, Mulvaney said it’s hard to tell how much hazardous waste is at the Milpitas facility. But he said one thing is for sure.

    “Materials labeled hazardous waste require a lot more protocol, so its actually a lot more expensive to clean,” Mulvaney said. “It’s very sad looking at this facility taken apart like this, because a lot of money went into building this.”


    So how much is Obama's Green agenda really going to cost the tax payers?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Miami Buys 300 Toyota Priuses, Forgets About Them For The Next Five Years


    Wasteful spending is nothing new in our government, or any government. Yet, 300 new cars are rather hard to misplace. Miami-Dade county officials didn’t remember the 293 undriven Toyota Prius models until a Spanish-language television station stumbled across the cars, languishing in a county-owned garage. They did what any responsible fourth estate did and filed an investigation on it that aired in October. And once county officials found out that there was a treasure trove of brand-new vehicles, already bought and paid for, just waiting to be driven around for vague municipal purposes, they leaped into action, pressing about 135 of the Priuses into county service.

    Who knows what those Priuses have been used for—comically low-speed car chases, for example, or bribing County Comptrollers for a night on the town at the local Outback Steakhouse in order to get rid of a pesky department audit. But that still leaves 158 Priuses languishing in some backlot somewhere—and they’re the previous generation, too, as even Toyota has moved on. Fortunately, the drivetrain of the Prius has an 8-year, 80,000 mile warranty, and seeing as many of those Priuses don’t have a single daily driven mile on them, the warranty still stands for the former.

    Just as well, too, because a hybrid battery pack just sitting there isn’t exactly fresh out of the package. Did we mention it can get pretty humid in Florida? And hot?

    Perhaps there’s a bit of justice in the epilogue of this story. In 2006, Carlos Alvarez was the mayor of Miami-Dade County. Voters removed him from office in March 2011 in a rare recall election. Why? Because—and there’s no way I could make up this bit of poetic justice—he was accused of misappropriating taxpayer funds.

    Going Green, going too far
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, until we know the extent of the entirety of the circumstances, it's hard to form a proper conclusion about this situation.

    It wasn't wasteful AT ALL had the cars been put into service immediately as they should have been. Think about all the gas savings they lost out on !!

    My guess is that a kickback of some sort was behind this whole thing, since we know that mayor was a dirty dealer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think you are not looking at the big picture. The USA is headed into 3rd World status. Look around you man, people are without jobs or working way below their education level. Buying crap from China and Japan is a big part of the problem. What good is pristine air if we are starving to death? Oh, I get it our last breath will be from clean air.

    We have a lot bigger problems in the World than Global Warming.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, you keep complaining about "crap goods" from China and Japan, but you have never proposed a suitable alternative.

    How does it help us if we "force" companies to manufacture goods in the "Good Ole' You Ess AYY" and the goods become too expensive and company profits fall?

    Let's see the fallout from that:

    1. Lower sales due to higher prices and thus lowered demands for those goods.
    2. Lower sales lead to cutbacks and layoffs.
    3. Lower sales lead to lower corporate taxes paid, putting additional revenue burden on the government agencies.
    4. Fewer employees mean more people unemployed, underemployed, or PHDs working at McDonalds, and leading also to more tax revenue required to pay unemployment benefits to larger numbers of people.
    5. Fewer imported goods leads to lower tariff receipts.
    6. EPA pollution controls forbid certain items from being manufactured here, so certain products will go away or become VERY scarce, rising the prices.

    Where is the benefit? So we can "feel good" about saying "Made In The USA?"

    I'm looking directly at the Big Picture right now. Point out where on the picture any of this is a good idea.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2012
    Corporations, like the climate, are worldwide so it's a bit of a red herring to complain about Chinese goods. I've purchased a lot of junk made in the USA over the decades.

    The best ski goggles I own came from Hong Kong. ~$40. And they're prescription.

    I have a US made KitchenAid blender. Got clutch spares since it's delicate and you'll break the clutch fins if you overtax it or don't put it on the stand just so.

    The worst watch I ever had was Swiss.

    Everyone complains about Chinese made drywall but tests show plenty of the US stuff outgasses sulfur as bad or worse.

    But we digress. Unless you want to talk about the problems of shipping this stuff around the world instead of manufacturing locally.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When I see the huge numbers of unemployed and much of our money going over seas to out sourced jobs, to further the Green Agenda, I question the validity of the process. We keep handing $millions to foreign companies in the way of tax credits in our zealousness to be green and clean. I question our motives. Should we be subsidizing foreign companies for goods that either cannot be made here in a clean manner. Or should we say if it cannot be made here without negative environmental impact, it cannot be sold here. That would be my way of bringing jobs back to America. You want the product pay the price. It will eventually impact all of US, and especially our children.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Second world status, the neocon one worlders have been working for this for generations.

    Enabling and allowing those who do not play by our rules to compete on a level playing field on our turf, that's the real problem.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Hold on there, Finsters......

    Gary and you are talking about two different groups, looks like to me....

    Gary is blaming it on the "Green Agenda" while you are blaming "Neocon one worlders" and those two are definitely opposite ends of the spectrum.

    If we can't agree even on WHO to blame, how can we fix it?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    They are more alike than they might want to admit, different means to the same end.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Gary, you keep complaining about "crap goods" from China and Japan, but you have never proposed a suitable alternative.

    I have proposed a solution. At least 30% tariffs on all manufactured imports. Make manufacturing in the USA competitive with higher tariffed goods. I think what Fintail is saying is gutting our manufacturing base is part of the globalist plan, along with pushing the AGW agenda to siphon money from the USA into countries around the World.

    The Green Agenda is intertwined as a noble cause to make people believe what they are doing is Good for the environment. While it may have positive benefits such as cleaner air and water, it is currently shifting the dirty mining & manufacturing to other countries. Corporations are getting obscenely wealthy while the US middle class is headed to the toilet.

    5. Fewer imported goods leads to lower tariff receipts.

    For most of our existence tariffs supported the Federal Government. Only since the 1930s have tariffs dropped and individual income tax picked up the slack. Today our tariffs are not worth mentioning. Less than 2% or our Federal receipts.

    6. EPA pollution controls forbid certain items from being manufactured here, so certain products will go away or become VERY scarce, rising the prices.

    And that is as it should be. If it cannot be mined or manufactured under EPA regulations it should NOT be allowed into the USA. PERIOD. It is polluting somewhere to satisfy our consumerism, and that is flat wrong.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Report warns of weather satellites' 'rapid decline'

    The number of in-orbit and planned Earth observation missions by NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is projected to drop "precipitously" from 23 this year to only six by 2020, the report found.

    That means the number of instruments monitoring Earth's activity is expected to decline from a peak of about 110 last year to fewer than 30 by the end of the decade.


    http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/story/2012-05-02/weather-satellites-forecas- t-storms/54708804/1

    The Great Dying of Thermometers

    It’s like watching the lights go out over the West. Sinan Unur has mapped the surface stations into a beautiful animation. His is 4 minutes long and spans from 1701-2010. I’ve taken some of his snapshots and strung them into a 10 second animation.

    You can see as development spreads across the world that more and more places are reporting temperatures. It’s obvious how well documented temperatures were (once) in the US. The decay of the system in the last 20 years is stark.


    http://joannenova.com.au/2010/05/the-great-dying-of-thermometers/
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If we don't develop "green goods" we'll really be buying all that stuff from China. They're going full steam ahead on it (well, I should say, full solar ahead on it).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We do develop many of them. Then let China build them. How does that help our economy with a $500 billion trade imbalance with China? We were building solar panels and now they are undercutting our mfg by 50%. How long do you think we can sustain being a consuming and not a producing nation?
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Guns and butter. We make neither.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    But we make financial planners and senior managers and burger flippers, so it is all good, right? :sick:
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited May 2012
    We do develop many of them. Then let China build them. How does that help our economy with a $500 billion trade imbalance with China? We were building solar panels and now they are undercutting our mfg by 50%. How long do you think we can sustain being a consuming and not a producing nation?

    It's happened with just about every product we ever developed. This is not a new phenomenom.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I don't know what the incentive is to actually have your hand in building stuff here or anywhere else. It is so much easier to become rich on Wall Street with little or no risk. Why not just gamble with other people's money and collect a percentage whether you win or lose?
This discussion has been closed.