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Comments
If, as Edmunds claims, they have done a thorough review of the LS 460 then why does their comparisons for rear seat legroom show "being researched"?
Doesn't Edmunds measure and test all cars with the same standards? If not, their results are highly suspect, certainly misleading, and perhaps even meaningless.
If they merely regurgitate manufacturer's data from the literature,they should acknowledge that as well.
Further, I for one would like to know where to find Edmunds comparison criteria. How difficult can measuring leg room be?
They do:
http://reviews.cnet.com/2007_Lexus_LS_460_L/4505-10865_7-32172595.html?tag=subna- - -
The better question is what's up with the credibility of CD?
As a former owner of an LS and someone planning to get the LS 460 soon, I think some of the sources being quoted on this forum about the LS 460 have not yet established credibility as authoritative sources.
Just my 2 cents
:confuse:
Most of the TV ads I have seen seem to have the 19" wheel on the car too. Its a big car and I think this big wheel looks more to scale with the overall appearance and fills the wheel well better.
THE TRUTH ABOUT THE LEXUS LS460
Cyclone - Edmunds is just out of sight out of mind for me these days. I don't like what they did to their product. It's that simple. I check in a small fraction of the time that I used to. But don't worry my friend I'll keep you up to date with any news I get. Between business, the Holidays, and a bad upper respiratory infection I've been quite busy with the first two as well as partially inactive with the last one. But I finally got the tree up and decorated this weekend after buying it just after Thanksgiving and keeping it in water all the time since.
Enjoy and have fun...
link title
TagMan
"The comparative data on the Lexus web site are from Edmunds." The Lexus web site does clearly state that comparative data are from Edmunds.
Not a big deal. I was just trying to clear up a misconception.
your response is a very classy response to a very unclassy review. At least you did not shoot the messenger of this article. The "road-feel" and handling of an LS is definitely a debatable issue . But the reviewer's hostility does tend to shine through. Also comparing a MB E63 with a LS is kind of silly. Two very different kind of cars for two very different kind of drivers.
I just posted this confrontational review to stir the pot here a bit. But now after your decent response I feel a bit embarassed for introducing such a one sided review here.
Anyways I do wish you a very speedy recovery with your respiratory infection.
Take care
Dewey
I will spend more time here with people who aren't downers, painting mustaches on the Mona Lisa.
DrFill
That is exactly why I am here :P
P.S. The Mona Lisa is really a picture of Leanardo Di Vinci who happened to have a moustache.
I found it spot on.
The reviewer did not hold anything back, and I found his candor refreshing.
Seems you have missed it.
TagMan
Could you please give us a brief summary? Thanks in advance.
There's an old belief I have that has been right 100% of the time and it says the more you need to diss something the more you feel threatened by it. I left that board for a number of reasons but the one thing that continually comes across as real sad in some reading I subsequently did (and part of the reason I left) is the put down of anyone that doesn't drive a Gernman or Euro lux car. It almost comes across as join us because your not as good as the rest of us until you buy German or Euro. Sad.
Dewey - thanks for the wishes. Feeling much better and now closing out the year with a boatload of business activity.
Cyclone - I'm not writing off the LS600HL just yet though I will if they ship them only with the rear seat package. With two kids I don't need an argument about who sits in that seat and I don't need cut-off trunk space either. But like you my preference is an AWD LS460L in the $80-85K range. Problem here right now is you can't get your hands on an LS460L. They are gone before they even get into the dealership. It seems the same for the SWB car as well. I noted Lexus sold 3600 LS cars in November. I'm interested to see December sales. IMO Toyota is one month behind in revenue recognition (two days or so in real time) because of the great financial year they are having. Standard procedure is defer revenue when you have the numbers that company has. It's funny the games you can still play in finance. Nothing about what you do in manufacturing or shipping changes except that you postpone payment and title change of the cars a day or two into the next month. Just like that you have deferred revenue and no one can dispute it. No one views a conservative practice like that badly. It's the accelerated "Enron like" revenue practices that get all the attention and scrutiny.
Here it is.
The fourth-generation Lexus LS—called a 460 now because of its entirely new 4.6-liter V-8 engine—cranks the game up yet another notch, with way more power and torque, the industry’s first eight-speed automatic transmission (in a case no larger than the outgoing six-speed one), tighter fits, lighter components, a far more slippery body, and a lot more soul than any previous version.
This new Lexus will be offered three ways: in standard-wheelbase, long-wheelbase, and later, hybrid versions, the first time the Lexus flagship has been offered in more than one size or flavor.
We drove the car in the Austrian Alps near Salzburg. A lasting impression is that it is exceedingly comfortable and well organized for everyone who has to use it, a car as warm, inviting, and comfortable as your own mother’s arms. The engine is the first all-new Lexus V-8 engine in seventeen years, a prime example of mass-production blueprinting to ridiculously tight tolerances. It is rated at 380 horsepower and 367 pound-feet of torque. As it is, it’s 102 horsepower and 55 pound-feet stronger than the old, 4.3-liter engine. Lexus says that’s good enough for 0-60 times of 5.4 seconds, quarter-mile times of 13.8 seconds, and a top speed of only 130 mph—they limited the speed so they could use quieter, more luxurious tires on the car. For the same reason, they did not specify run-flat tires, either. Buyers can choose the standard 235/50R-18 tires on nine-spoke, eighteen-inch alloy wheels or get the Touring package and a set of 245/45R-19 tires on five-spoke wheels.
When you spin that amount of horsepower through an eight-speed transmission, you get a wonderful combination of launch and acceleration performance along with whisper-quiet cruising and twenty-seven-mile-per-gallon fuel economy in 0.65:1 eighth gear.
This may be the most perfectly integrated engine and transmission package we have ever used. The eerie silence of the engine, the utter absence of vibration, and the imperceptible upshifts at part throttle make for a whole new order of driving serenity. It gets with the program with an absolute minimum of noise and fuss and mechanical intrusions into the people space. It feels very strong, it responds instantly, and we have no doubt that the stated 0-60 time of 5.4 seconds is conservative.
The new 4.6-liter is a double-overhead-cam, thirty-two-valve power-plant with variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust valves—controlled on the intake side by electronics, on the exhaust side by hydraulics—for cold-start emissions. Another neat trick in the valvetrain is the use of four hollow camshafts, each with pressed-on steel lobes, a first at Lexus, for lighter engine weight and improved timing precision.
Flashing and blasting, cutting and thrusting through those Austrian mountains, we found ourselves not caring a damn that the steering and brakes (and, on the plusher versions, the optional air suspension) were all under electronic control of some kind. Drive-by-wire throttle, an electric motor turning the steering rack back and forth, twelve tiny solenoids running the brakes, none of that bothers us because it all works beautifully as an integrated system.
Inside the car, it’s no different. As long as you have the key on your person, this Lexus will unlock itself and start via the
separate start/stop button. The clear, sharp, and deep instrumentation comes on with flair. Between the sixteen-way power seats and the electrically adjustable steering wheel and column, it will accommodate anyone from midget to Watusi in surpassing comfort. The new four-spoke steering wheel is made of very expensive leather and equally expensive wood, with redundant controls. Very nice, very thick in section, the way we like them. All the stuff packed into the center stack is well marked and mostly intuitive to use.
The brand-new electronic steering is quite normal-feeling, with more boost at low speeds, less boost at high speeds, and almost no boost at autobahn speeds. The unique steering system continuously analyzes vehicle speed and driver input, and communicates
with the vehicle’s brain. Down at your feet, the brake pedal feels entirely normal and usual, and the brakes work extremely well with very little fade from heat and repeated hard use. The base brakes are ventilated 13.2-inch fronts and 12.4-inch rears with four-piston fixed calipers front and two-piston fixed calipers rear. If you get the long version with the Touring package, you get spiral-ventilated fourteen-inch front discs and 13.3-inch rear discs with heavy-duty brake pads.
The 460’s slick body (its coefficient of drag is 0.26) is remarkable, for the car looks shorter overall even though it has an increased wheelbase. The designers did a proper evolution with the LS460’s proportions; it is six-tenths of one inch lower, six-tenths longer, and 1.8 inches wider, with a 1.8-inch longer wheelbase and a 1.5-inch wider track front and rear. The front overhang has been reduced by 1.6 inches and the rear overhang by 2.75 inches, so it’s a tidier package with the shortest turning radius in the class. The long-wheelbase version is longer by 4.75 inches, and the extra length ends up in the rear.
We do find that the longer wheelbase, in concert with untold millions of dollars in development, does have a positive effect in driving the big Lexus. Although there is some body roll when the LS460 is thrown into a high-speed corner, it takes a firm set and doesn’t wobble back and forth, so there is plenty of confidence in its repeatability and steadiness. The Touring package (which includes air suspension, bigger tires, variable-ratio steering, and adaptive shock absorbers) takes care of the body roll, and we would certainly pay extra to have it. The chassis and suspension are all-new parts, including an aluminum upper and lower double-joint suspension up front with coil-over shocks and a thirty-four-millimeter stabilizer bar on an aluminum sub-frame.
The optional Mark Levinson sound system is simply wonderful and deserves its own road test in The Absolute Sound. It has amazing power, imaging, and separation; 540 watts; and fifteen channels playing through nineteen speakers. There’s a plug in the console for your own player, and an optional hard-disc-drive audio device that can store and organize 4000 songs. This is definitely the luxury car of choice for the audiophile.
cont....
The options list is exhaustive; it includes such pleasantries as dynamic radar cruise control, real-time traffic reporting, and a right rear seat with ottoman and massager. There are three rear-seat configurations to choose from, including a package in the long-wheelbase version that makes use of a center console and wood table, infrared
body-temperature sensors for the A/C system, a DVD system with a nine-inch screen, the Mark Levinson sound system, and an additional air bag. It’s a nice way to ride.
As for the rest of us, the enthusiast drivers, the Lexus LS460 is a lot better in so many ways than its predecessors, a slick and handsome devil, and a real technical marvel. We applaud Lexus’s relentless pursuit of the silent servant luxury car, because it makes the competition mad—and when they get mad, they get better, so we drivers benefit.
Comments, anyone?
TagMan
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/automobiles/autoreviews/10AUTO.html?_r=1&oref=- - - slogin
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You are most welcome.
BTW, it was an earlier review, but if it ever made its way here (due to the subscription limitation) I don't remember seeing it. Either way, it's a nice review for those that have never read it, don't you agree?
With all the negative sentiment that is being unfairly slung at the members of the HELC forum, I thought the timing would be right to make sure it got posted here.
The members of the HELC forum have not written the C&D review, and the many other reviews that point out some of the potential weaknesses of the LS460. In a forum that is mixed with Eurocar fans as well as Japanese car fans it is natural to see more diverse views... and the negative reviews will be discussed just as much as the positive ones. Heck, I posted this review on that forum just as well as this one.
There is no need to classify anyone as a "hater". This is destructive language that reflects badly on those that say it, and it only hurts us all in the long run, IMO. The best bet is to stick to your guns and post your own points of view. They are just as valid.
For those of you that may not have had the opportunity to read the review from Winding Road, I hope you enjoyed it.
TagMan
I think I will be hard pressed to buy a large luxury car that has less trunk than my first ever car had, a 92 Camry.
This Guy should go talk to C&D. They prefer the old car by leaps and bounds. So much for taking C&D seriously ever again. I finally read that story and they went out of their way to let you know the A8 was a 2006 and would cost a grand more today. Then they barely let you know the LS460 was a pre-production car (and with a grossly overstated weight). If you weren't sharp enough you'd never catch the pre-production notation as it's noted and buried in another comment. Give me a break.
By the way, I think I need to pat myself on the back since it appears that I instigated a lot of discussion on this board several days ago when I linked the new review from CNET ;-). It seems like since that time, this place has really come to life.
The previous month, C&D said the Rabbit is better than the Mazda3, which is a joke.
One flawed test is an anomaly. Two in a row is a situation. This facelift reminds me of the 1995-6 Lexus SC400. Things are heading downhill. :sick:
DrFill
As has already been said, anyone interested in the LS460 should go to a dealer and drive one.
Many of the reviewers of this vehicle have a bias against luxury vehicles to begin with. They look for redline performance. Not exactly preaching to the customer base for this vehicle.
When a new car is tested, the engine is smooth and powerful, the chassis is tight and communicative and the handling and power steering are sharp and communicative. The interior design is fresh and pleasing to the eye with good quality materials.
When the next generation "new and improved" car is driven, the new engine is smooth and powerful but the old one was coarse and noisy, the new chassis is tight and communicative but the old one was floppy and non-communicative, and the handling and power steering are now sharp and communicative whereas they were limp and lifeless before. The interior design is now fresh and pleasing to the eye with good quality materials, but the old one looks dowdy with poor quality materials.
So, what do you think of the old car now?
Sales - I am hearing some stories of LS460L's going over sticker because they are so in demand. My dealership is sold out of LS460 and 460L's thru March and he's a big volume dealer. Luckily I've got my name on both a hybrid and a 460L for late March delivery and a color and options selection already made. This new LS is a lot hotter than the 2001 car was and that is a clear indication that a new LS is a big thing in this market. I was able to land that 2001 car despite not having wait listed myself in advance. With this car that is not possible - at least not where I live.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Interestingly, I have also often achieved 30mpg on the highway, whenever conditions are relatively normal, ie; clear, no wind, level start and ending points, etc., on my LS430. I'm not surprised the 460 can do that as well with 2 more gears, and an even better designed power plant.
And, this is why a Hybrid doesn't really interest me at the exorbitant, usurious and unconscientionable extra cost. :P
Let's say the LS460L was 500lbs heavier, and had a very similar set-up to the LS430, and the extra size and weight caused a loss in handling. Let's assume, for arguments sake, that Lexus ignored the laws of physics, didn't take into account the extra size and weight, and just dropped the ball.
If C&D was going to make handling a make-or-break part of the test (The LS was tied for 1st place until the "Chassis" tests), then just get a car with the Touring Pkg, so it can do well in that part of the test.
I think Lexus ONLY made the Touring pkg. for journalists, for test like this one, so it doesn't get a bum rap.
The standard set-up is competent, but not sporting. If you want that, and will use it in a sporting vain, get it set up for that.
Punishing a luxury car for acting like a luxury car.....
Lexus easily won the luxury features part of the test, but a huge chunk was based on sporty driving, which the LS was not designed for.
The Touring probably was. I guess we'll never know. Thanks, C&D! :sick:
DrFill
Thank goodness for innovation and product improvement.
I thought my last computer was so fast... until the latest dual core was built, and now they've announced quad core!
I bought wonderful home entertainment equipment only to have to replace it all with high definition, and now I've discovered that 1080p is even better yet, and it's time for Blu-Ray or HD DVD, or whatever the latest is! Thank goodness I don't have to throw away the plasma yet, but it won't be long I'm afraid.
Cars are the same way. Years ago, I thought a three-speed automatic with electronic overdrive was a good thing. I thought a 5-speed manual was a good thing. WRONG! Now we are up to 7 and 8 speed automatics, and 6-speed sticks. I read that an eight-speed stick might be in the works. I hope not.
Right now we have cars (LS) that make a noble attempt to park themselves, but soon we will have cars that really do it easily and quickly, without all the fuss of today's system. You can count on it. The next generation park-assist will blow this one away. VW now has self-DRIVING cars, and they say they might introduce them soon.
So, compared to what's in store from the future, today's whiz-bang LS will be an old-fashioned bucket of bolts in twelve years time. Especially the LS600hL, which will have the most technology to become obsolete... and because that process of obsolesence is ongoing, it could be very noticeable within just a few years from now! It makes the LS600hL a risky purchase compared to almost every other vehicle on the market.
TagMan