However, that's due to the RX is a bit long on its teeth and the next one will be a 7-seater...
Well then they need to drop the GX470 or not bother with the Lexus Sequoia thingamajig (VX570?)... or both. Because if the next RX goes 7-seater (which I agree will happen), then there is some serious redundancy in that lineup.
I think Lexus will offer a compact CUV to compete with the RDX, X3 and EX after they move the RX up in size.
I've read that it'll be a lux version of the RAV4. I think it's a pretty good start.
So when the new RX debut in 2008 then again that'll become MDX's main competitor.
Sure, that makes sense but right now I consider the GX470 to be Lexus's answer to the MDX at the moment.
Got enough of the alphabet soup model names yet? Ugh :sick:
What do you guys think that'll happen with the new TL. Will it remain about the same size and will the SH-AWD be an option or standard? Will the engine develop more than 300HP? If so, how many more? If not, and given that it'll come with AH-AWD and remain the same size it should be pretty heavy so how is it going to fare against the IS350, G35 and 335i in the straight line performance?
I would love to return to Honda/Acura given that I had great experience with my '90 Legend and '97 Accord. Hopefully Acura will introduce a class leader with the new TL and once again shock the auto industry like it did with the current one. However, I am not betting my car key on it though...
From message # 814: "I wouldn't be surprised if I hear people are cross shopping 5-series with Honda Accord."
I was thinking that myself. It raises an interesting point; namely, if you eliminate the prestige factor, how much better is the basic, naturally aspirated 5-Series 3.0 than the '08 Accord EX-L V6? Let's not even try to compare the turbo or M-Series with the Honda, since these will handily outperform any Accord, and are even less comparable price-wise. While most people who buy Accords, even the V6, can't afford the 5-Series, there are a significant number of people who could easily afford either. Sure, the 5-Series is RWD and the Accord is FWD, but they're similar dimensionally and weight-wise, and many drivers, even BMW drivers, don't drive aggressively enough for the issue of the drive wheels to make a difference. Some of these folks might just decide that it makes more sense for them to keep the difference between the 5-Series, or the E-Class Mercedes, invested. Some of these "millionaires and multimillionaires next door" may even prefer the anonymity of an EX-L V6 to a luxury brand, figuring "who needs more car than the '08 Accord?" Obviously, others just prefer the upscale brand for how it drives, looks, and feels, but I'm wondering whether this represents the majority of luxury brand buyers, versus those that are heavily influenced by the prestige or exclusivity factor. Any thoughts on this?
That brings up an interesting point, especially after reading something like this from C&D
“For the drive out of Death Valley, we switched to a 528i. We’d argue that the only time a $45,000 vehicle should feel underpowered is when the towing capacity has been exceeded by 3000 pounds, but climbing from the Death Valley floor to more than 5000 feet on an incline so gentle it looked flat outside our windows, we had to keep the 528i floored in third gear to maintain 70 mph. Although the naturally aspirated 3.0-liter gains 15 horsepower over last year’s 525i, 230 is not enough to shuffle a 3600-pound sedan through the heights with any hustle. We pulled off to see if perhaps devious pranksters had hooked a U-Haul lowboy to our Bimmer. They had not.”
Notwithstanding the fact that C&D was trying to make the point that the 528i would benefit from more power, that Death Valley climb is a highly unusual situation, and we don't know how a '08 Coord V6 would compare. That said, the Accord V6 is more powerful than the 528i, and comparable to the Mercedes 350 E-Class. Here's a comparison of the sedans...
This comparison doesn't consider gearing and other drivetrain factors, but from these numbers the Accord is the undisputed value champ, when price is considered. This raises the question of whether the handling, ride, feel, and other attributes of the 528i and E-Class are worth the price differential, or are prestige and exclusivity the primary factors for choosing these luxury models over the Accord?
I tried to keep this comparison simple, because each of these three models has numerous worthy competitors.
It would be interesting to hear from 528i and E350 owners and fans.
The size will probably resemble the 08 Accord. Yes it will have over 300 HP. Rumored to have 304 HP and SH-AWD to boot. Acura is going to give it a 6AT for fuel economy and becuase they can. The spy photographer who took the Daylight 09 TL shots on inside line said it was pretty fast. It had a lot of grip and pep on that road they were testing on.
Are you seriously attempting to compare the Honda Accord to the BMW 5 series?... I drove the Accord and found it way lacking in upper passing power. Might have more power than the entry engine, but let's not forget the 300Hp 300TQ twin turbo which has hit BMW's line-up. I own a 330xi which has 255Hp and 220 Tq @2750 rpm. My car destroyed the new Honda. Not to knock honda, It has it's place and does it well, but it does not compare with the premium cars like BMW or MB.
I have nothing really to say about the next gen TL. Going to be interested. The people are being sworn to secrecy. Only info I have is a 304 hp v6 and a 6 speed auto transmission. SH-AWD and a Hard drive is likely.
Now for the TSX. Rumor has it that the RDX engine won't make it. Probably a small v6. No info on the Type-S. Should have a european/bmw look.
RL is going to be the biggest and most extensive MMC for acura/honda. 3.7L v6 and 6AT is likely. Expect a HDD to store music, enhanced SH-AWD, some more room and more.
Acura is looking into making Type-S into an AMG, M, or S brand etc. This means more than just the usual improvements. The people in Japan are very interested.
Acura wants to be better than the germans. They are now being run by Acura and not Honda. They are now do their own thing. New R&D and design labs should help them. A v8 and v10 are going to come. They are doing everything they can to make Acura destroy the europeans, japanese and even Caddy !
All new Acura navigation systems will be moving to an idrive like knob. No more touchscreen. All touch screen vehicles will be moving over to the knob. The knob is pretty easy to use. Similar to the 08 Accord, RDX, 07- MDX, and the 05 - RL. Expect Traffic and weather reports on this new system. A hard drive is a possibility to store music. How about Navigation and music store on the hdd.
Will debut in April. Production to start in March with late april/early may delivery. Most likely late april. Could debut in NY. Maybe before or after.
A TL with 304hp is not going to cut it, especially with the heavy SH-AWD system. This car will be automatically off my list if it doesn't have at least 330hp.
A TSX with the 304hp V6 and SH-AWD would be very nice, especially if it is still being built in Japan. Anything less than that like the RDX engine and small V6 will make it off my list as well.
I don't like the idea of abandoning the touchscreen, it is much simpler to use than those stupid knobs/joysticks found on MB and BMW.
The knob is quite easy to use. There will probably be be a better voice recognition. The knob is being used in other cars as well. Most people who own the 08 accord say it's easy to use. There will be a ton of buttons for the radio and AC.
The v6 will make it powerful. The 304 HP v6 could be one of the options. The Type-S motor will be more powerful. Rumored to be a 3.5 and 3.7L v6. A TL test mule was reported to have plenty of power. In fact thats what a spy photographer said. It went over speed limit. Those spy pics were posted here. The v6 is a type-s engine from what I have heard. Well most likely. SH-AWD will probably be used in the upscale models. The new implementation will have more power going to the rear wheels.
RL will debut in Chicago. TSX is a possibility. New York will probably be a TL concept/prototype. The Type-S TSX could debut a year later.
New TL will have 3.5L and 3.7L engine. The 3.7L engine will have SH-AWD and 306 HP. Most likely another J series engine which is competitive but getting old. The 3.5L TL will be the base FF model. A 6 speed auto is in the cards. The base TL should make as much as the current TL-S.
All models with navigation will have XM traffic and weather support. Navigation on next gen models will have a interface dial. Enhanced bluetooth and navigation are expected.
RL will get a 3.5 liter but most likely 3.7L engine with 306 HP. Lots more torque with the 3.7L engine. Ventillated seats will be on the 09 RL. Canada and other countries have had them so now its americas turn to have them. Edgier styling is expected. Expect a Chicago debut.
TSX will be FWD but SH-AWD will be offered later. Color charts have been leaked. will go on sale in late april. Navi will have weather updates. Turbo i4 is pretty much confirmed. Probably with SH-AWD. 5AT or 6MT transmission. 6AT is probably an RL, TL debut then go to other cars. Diesel will also debut later. Possibly with SH-AWD. As always, enhanced bluetooth and navigation will also debut on this model. Official TSX details will be released in April.
Granted the RL was plain but at least it wasn't ugly, well that's not the case anymore. Folks here's the 2009 Acura RL:
Seriously, I think Acura has gotten a little bit carry away with that shield grill design. Can someone tell the Acura designers that IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD. It was "blah" on the MDX and definitely is "yikes" on the RL.
Also, I thought the '09 RL only shares 2 body panels with the '08 but can anyone see that? After all, besides the ugly grill and headlamps the car looks the same to me.
To Acura: This is not going to get you back into the game!!
383 units? Wow, that's more pathetic than the Lexus GS.
Acura should just let us know if they are tired of selling cars, we'll understand...
Which part of the "the RL needs a V8" do they not understand. Granted that Honda was built by engineers but I swear Acura will be destroyed by those same stubborn engineers as well.
"lol, I remember when the Aura made the show curcuit and was touted as "Saturns interpretation of an Acura TL"
Well maybe the Aura could be competitive against the TSX. GM better leave it up to the Caddy CTS to compete with cars like the Acura TL(in the TL's class.)
Whoa, I was trying to remember when I wrote that, and then looked to see that it was four months ago. No WONDER I didn't remember it! ;-)
Yeah, I hear you, all the luxury brands do it, with Lexus the worst offender of all. My point was that Acuras used to stand apart, but no longer. And if it is going to be the cushy-sedan-and-SUV company, well, the Lex/BMW/MB models are all more desirable if you ask me. More cachet, availability of RWD, more appealing styling to me personally (esp MB here) etc. Of course, it's a moot point, as I wouldn't want ANY of them.
These days the best deals are to be found in the mainstream brands that are reaching up and out of the standard fare to offer special versions of their mainstream cars. In this category I include your fave, Mazda (Sales up 10% for the year in '07, partly because of what I am talking about here), as well as Subaru. I keep a close eye on Honda in the hopes it will also do more of the SI-type treatments on its common models and offer more unconventional models. I look forward with great anticipation to the rebirth of the CRX (CR-Z concept). By contrast, there is nothing in the pipeline at Acura that I look forward to with any interest at all. The death of the RSX/Integra has probably ended my interest in Acura.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"And if it is going to be the cushy-sedan-and-SUV company, well, the Lex/BMW/MB models are all more desirable if you ask me."
Lexus: uch! The only thing Lexus has that stands out to me is the IS and the LS 460. I mean ok the LS 460 is a bread and butter product but at least it stands out on the road and its not that "lets cater to the masses exterior styling" that Toyota/Lexus is often guilty of. I would take the TL over the ES any day. As for BMW what happened to their styling? The 7 Series: yuck. The 5 Series is not that appealing looking to me but other than that its the correct size and has a V-8. The 3 Series is a good car though. Its finally the right size in my opinion for a person like myself.
I don;t think the TL and TSX are cushy riding cars. I have never driven any of those 2 models but I haven;t heard anybody say that the TL and TSX are cushy riding cars. I
What's wrong? Seems they still have a severe case of "Lack of Confidence" combined with "Lack of Testosterone".
There is no fundamental reason why the Acura RL couldn't be redesigned to be the one and only premium sports sedan competitor to a BMW 535i or 550i. Lexus has absolutely nothing, Infiniti is mired in schizophrenia, Audi is about a quarter ton overweight and stuck (as is the RL) on AWD,....
But, apparantly, Acura thinks because it can't sell a glorified AWD Accord for $45k, it is incapable of designing and selling a REAL premium sport sedan for $50k+. They aren't afraid to incrementlaly sneak the price of a loaded MDX up into Mercedes and BMW territory, but they seem to have no confidence in the company's ability to compete in the serious sport sedan segment. Meanwhile, everybody else has been discombobulated and kept the window of opportunity open, but nobody at Acura appears to have the testosterone or body parts to go for it. Pitiful underachievement if you ask me.
And let me ask you readers: Name a car other than the 535i 6-speed or 550i 6-speed that is virtually unchallenged in its niche segment? Certainly the 335i has more competition, albeit generally inferior. The luxury oriented slushbox only sedan market - GS, E-class, A6, Jag, M35/45, etc. is loaded with alternatives. But if one really appreciates driving dynamics and driver interaction in a mid size vehicle, the 5-series is it. What doesn't Acura marketing see in that opportunity. The last friggin thing we need is another poopy, unispired, technogadget do-dadded super Accord.
Is there anybody who was responsible for the S2000 still in the house??
Among them, that more exciting news was coming their way at the next dealer meeting in April! :-P
But also that they can expect to Acura to move closer to becoming a "Tier 1" brand, similar to MB, BMW, Lexus, in the next year.
Wow, is the new NSX and a couple of warmed-over existing models going to accomplish all that?! They also promised to distinguish the brand more from Honda. Obviously that would be a real useful thing to do. But I dunno: a loaded Accord EX-L V-6 has a lot of equipment, is a decent performer, and has an entry-lux price tag. Don't get me started on the Pilot. So what kind of meaningful distinctions between the two brands are they going to be able to create in a year?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda has moved upmarket further than Acura, so now they greatly over-lap.
Also, they seem to have lost their way when they moved from trying to be "sporty", (i.e the original NSX, the Integra, the RSX) and tried to move more into the "near luxury" market...
What's the point of buying a TL when an Accord also has a powerful V6, leather interior, wood trim, nav system, etc....? It just comes down to styling preference.
Although, I will say, they do a better job of differentiating the RDX from the CR-V and the MDX from the Pilot.
"What's the point of buying a TL when an Accord also has a powerful V6, leather interior, wood trim, nav system, etc....? It just comes down to styling preference."
That's what people wrote when the 2003 Accord showed up the 2003 TL. Then, when the redesigned 2004 TL hit the streets, it became the best selling car in the segment (for 2004 and 2005). The overlap between these cars lasts one year and, yes, I agree they are too close for comfort. But when both reach their FMC, the TL has shown why it's in the Acura line. I certainly hope it does so again.
I'm beginning to think Habbitat1 is right. Acura has seemed timid about getting into the ring with the big boys. When compared with any other AWD, V6-powered large luxury sedan, the current RL holds its ground quite nicely. The problem is that isn't where the action is at. That is a small, unloved niche within the market. Acura needs to go head to head sooner or later.
That's what people wrote when the 2003 Accord showed up the 2003 TL. Then, when the redesigned 2004 TL hit the streets, it became the best selling car in the segment (for 2004 and 2005). The overlap between these cars lasts one year and, yes, I agree they are too close for comfort. But when both reach their FMC, the TL has shown why it's in the Acura line. I certainly hope it does so again.
If they move the TL upmarket any further it really overlaps the RL at that point.
My original point was, way back in say 1989, an Accord only came with cloth seats, 4 cylinder engine - if you wanted to 'step up' you needed to get a Legend (or maybe the Vigor was out by then I forget)... Anyway, it just seems to me that Honda has moved upmarket to where Acura used to be, and Acura hasn't moved far enough upmarket, so now they overlap a lot.
And then the RL gets a redesign the year following the TL... That's the way it is with any car company.
There does need to be a significant gap between the mainstream products and the luxury products. Right now, Acura's gap is not great, but I have seen worse. I think 5-10 years ago that gap was actually less than it is now. My 2001 TL was not significantly fancier than the 2001 Accord. It was 225 hp from a 3.2 vs 200 hp from a 3.0. The TL even had a single disk CD player. The original MDX and Pilot were also a bit too close for comfort. The Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti cars and trucks had similar issues. I would argue that their issues were actually worse in the late 90's up through 2002ish.
Nissan and Infiniti have probably come the farthest in fixing the problem, but I think Acura has made some improvements, too.
I think a larger issue for Acura was the roll-out of the sedans. The TSX, TL, and RL all hit the market at roughly the same time (2004-2005). They all got old together. Now the only sedans on the lot are older models. There's nothing to generate buzz, except the RDX and MDX. And they missed with the RDX. They need to stagger the releases better.
And then the RL gets a redesign the year following the TL... That's the way it is with any car company.... They need to stagger the releases better.
I dunno .... to me the real problem is they are right on top of each other...not the timing.... Lexus doesn't have to worry about staggering the release of the LS vs. the GS vs. the ES because they don't overlap
Unless they move the RL upmarket, the new TL will be right on top of it. They should just drop the RL unless they move it upmarket. IMO
It's becoming increasingly unclear to me, as sales of the Acura brand continue to fall, how Acura will execute on its goal to become a strong top tier competitor.
I recently read, and then heard from an Edmunds poster who got it from a different source than mine, that Acura will introduce at least one RWD large sedan in the 2011-2012 time frame.
They really ought to - I think it's sink or swim now with the new CO2 regs set to come in, which will hurt companies with AWD cars more than it will hurt those with RWD cars.
Then there's the fact that their 3 sedans trip all over each other now that the '09 TSX has bulked up and sized up. Once they stick in the turbo from the RDX, which they will need to do if they hope to improve sales, there will be little to nothing of substance to differentiate the 3.
Plus, they are down to a lineup consisting solely of some fairly boring sedans and boring-by-definition crossovers. They can't rely on the next NSX to provide the only excitement in the whole lineup. How about a few fun models - roadsters, sport coupes, something a bit smaller that will actually feel nimble when you drive it?
I have heard the latest ads for the new TSX, and the only innovation it they point out is that you can now get live restaurant reviews as you are driving down the road. TALK ABOUT "who cares". Honda and Acura used to be about engineering, sport, and fun. Now it is about Bluetooth, traffic updates, and restaurant reviews. It's actually kinda gross.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"...Acura used to be about engineering, sport, and fun. Now it is about Bluetooth, traffic updates, and restaurant reviews."
It actually makes sense. By enabling/encouraging people to eat more, with the restaurant reviews, they have to make their cars larger. Also, as drivers' thoughts are focused on Bluetooth, traffic, and other garbage, their desire for responsiveness and nimbleness is diminished, as their satisfaction with comfortable cruisers increases. Hey, Buick has known this for years..
I went to test drive the '09 TSX last Friday and here's my review:
Exterior: Not a fan of the new exterior styling, especially the new Acura corporate grille. The old pentagon design was more sleeker and less "WTF...". I've noticed excessive orange peel on the black demo I drove and the paint quality is obviously not as good as other luxury brands like Lexus, MB and BMW. It's very Honda-like.
Interior: Fit and finish is very good, on par with the Honda/Acura standard. The dashboard has a strong BMW feel to it, the reason of that is due to where the navigation screen is located, right at the center and on top of the A/C vents. Given that I am not a fan of the BMW dashes, I too do not like the new design in the TSX. The old style of having the screen incorporated within the center stack looks much better in my opinion. The big down side of the interior is the utilization of the hard plastic panels. The lower half of all panels inside the car including the dashboard, center stack, center console and door panels are all made of hard plastics. Although the quality is high but it felt cheap when touching it. Also, the aluminum trim is gone and replaced by the metallic paint on plastic; to me that's okay but kind of a downgrade from the previous gen. The interior volume has dramatically improved over the last model, I am 6'1 and were able to sit comfortably in the backseat even after I adjusted the driver seat to my ideal driving position. The best part of the interior is the steering wheel, it is thick and feels very good holding on to it. The seats are supportive but again the leather quality is lacking compare to the leading luxury brands.
Driving: Right off the line the car felt much faster than the previous model, which is not a surprise given that this new 2.4 I4 has 6 more lb-ft of torque. However, when pushed hard, the lack of horsepower immediate shows, in my opinion 201hp is definitely not enough for this car. I took the car around PV on some twisty roads to test the steering response, overall it's very precise and the car will go where the wheel is pointed at. Suspension is firm but very comfortable on rocky roads, the car felt very confident through corners with minimal body roll. One criticism I have for the new TSX is that Acura has replaced the hydraulic power steering with electric-assist. Because of that, the road feel is not as "crisp" as the previous gen and the steering felt much lighter. Oh by the way, the brake is very Honda-mushy as expected.
Overall I would say this is an mediocre effort from Acura. It won't shock the world but will continue to provide a decent product to the customers who are looking for an affordable entry level luxury sedan.
Good review. Continuing to provide a decent product won't be good enough. The old decent product has dropped way down in sales. The electric steering feel and mushy brakes would be SO EASY to fix, yet they don't go to the trouble of doing so. They are becoming like Toyota: one is frustrated because one KNOWS that ten years ago and twenty, they knew how to do better, so it is not the lack of know-how dumbing down their new products, it is the lack of effort.
We all know what happens when the accountants run the show (GM in the 80s and 90s).
And any increase in hard interior plastics and painted plastic trim instead of real metal trim in a brand that claims to want to go upmarket in the next few years is a very bad idea.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
the latest TV ad for the TSX this morning: weird - I guess they are trying to sell TSXs to affluent clubbers? OTOH, TSX sales are way up with the new model. I can't figure it.
Acura sales may rise with the product direction the company is taking now, but where is the soul of the company?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's the problem in the industry, soul doesn't sell...
Enthusiasts would say that:
Lexus has no soul - but it is the leading luxury brand in the US The ISx50 has no soul compare to the old IS300 - well, sales number doesn't lie... Toyota has no soul - only 15k units away (monthly) from claiming the number 1 spot from GM e90/92 has no soul compare to the old e46/e36 - but they are selling better than ever Accords are getting less "soul" generation after generation - but the sales go up year after year...
I can go on but you get the picture.
If you are running the company and has shareholders to answer to, what would you do?
Comments
However, that's due to the RX is a bit long on its teeth and the next one will be a 7-seater...
Well then they need to drop the GX470 or not bother with the Lexus Sequoia thingamajig (VX570?)... or both. Because if the next RX goes 7-seater (which I agree will happen), then there is some serious redundancy in that lineup.
I think Lexus will offer a compact CUV to compete with the RDX, X3 and EX after they move the RX up in size.
I've read that it'll be a lux version of the RAV4. I think it's a pretty good start.
So when the new RX debut in 2008 then again that'll become MDX's main competitor.
Sure, that makes sense but right now I consider the GX470 to be Lexus's answer to the MDX at the moment.
Got enough of the alphabet soup model names yet? Ugh :sick:
I would love to return to Honda/Acura given that I had great experience with my '90 Legend and '97 Accord. Hopefully Acura will introduce a class leader with the new TL and once again shock the auto industry like it did with the current one. However, I am not betting my car key on it though...
I was thinking that myself. It raises an interesting point; namely, if you eliminate the prestige factor, how much better is the basic, naturally aspirated 5-Series 3.0 than the '08 Accord EX-L V6? Let's not even try to compare the turbo or M-Series with the Honda, since these will handily outperform any Accord, and are even less comparable price-wise. While most people who buy Accords, even the V6, can't afford the 5-Series, there are a significant number of people who could easily afford either. Sure, the 5-Series is RWD and the Accord is FWD, but they're similar dimensionally and weight-wise, and many drivers, even BMW drivers, don't drive aggressively enough for the issue of the drive wheels to make a difference. Some of these folks might just decide that it makes more sense for them to keep the difference between the 5-Series, or the E-Class Mercedes, invested. Some of these "millionaires and multimillionaires next door" may even prefer the anonymity of an EX-L V6 to a luxury brand, figuring "who needs more car than the '08 Accord?" Obviously, others just prefer the upscale brand for how it drives, looks, and feels, but I'm wondering whether this represents the majority of luxury brand buyers, versus those that are heavily influenced by the prestige or exclusivity factor. Any thoughts on this?
“For the drive out of Death Valley, we switched to a 528i. We’d argue that the only time a $45,000 vehicle should feel underpowered is when the towing capacity has been exceeded by 3000 pounds, but climbing from the Death Valley floor to more than 5000 feet on an incline so gentle it looked flat outside our windows, we had to keep the 528i floored in third gear to maintain 70 mph. Although the naturally aspirated 3.0-liter gains 15 horsepower over last year’s 525i, 230 is not enough to shuffle a 3600-pound sedan through the heights with any hustle. We pulled off to see if perhaps devious pranksters had hooked a U-Haul lowboy to our Bimmer. They had not.”
Accord V6: 268 hp @ 6,200 rpm; 248 ft.-lbs. @ 5,000 rpm; weight, 3,600 lbs.
BMW 528i: 230 hp @ 6,500 rpm; 200 ft.-lbs. @ 2,750 rpm ; weight, 3,505 lbs.
Mercedes E350: 268 hp @ 6,000 rpm; 258 ft.-lbs. @ 2,400 rpm; weight, 3,740 lbs.
This comparison doesn't consider gearing and other drivetrain factors, but from these numbers the Accord is the undisputed value champ, when price is considered. This raises the question of whether the handling, ride, feel, and other attributes of the 528i and E-Class are worth the price differential, or are prestige and exclusivity the primary factors for choosing these luxury models over the Accord?
I tried to keep this comparison simple, because each of these three models has numerous worthy competitors.
It would be interesting to hear from 528i and E350 owners and fans.
Now for the TSX. Rumor has it that the RDX engine won't make it. Probably a small v6. No info on the Type-S. Should have a european/bmw look.
RL is going to be the biggest and most extensive MMC for acura/honda. 3.7L v6 and 6AT is likely. Expect a HDD to store music, enhanced SH-AWD, some more room and more.
Acura is looking into making Type-S into an AMG, M, or S brand etc. This means more than just the usual improvements. The people in Japan are very interested.
Acura wants to be better than the germans. They are now being run by Acura and not Honda. They are now do their own thing. New R&D and design labs should help them. A v8 and v10 are going to come. They are doing everything they can to make Acura destroy the europeans, japanese and even Caddy !
Hope this helps.
Also, where did you get your information?
-Rocky
FMC = Full Model Change or redesign
TOV, from some guy who has done some stuff with Honda/Acura. Some of this is kept very secret.
More good info!
A 60K coupe will probably come. Also a larger SUV with a v8 is a possibility.
A TSX with the 304hp V6 and SH-AWD would be very nice, especially if it is still being built in Japan. Anything less than that like the RDX engine and small V6 will make it off my list as well.
I don't like the idea of abandoning the touchscreen, it is much simpler to use than those stupid knobs/joysticks found on MB and BMW.
The v6 will make it powerful. The 304 HP v6 could be one of the options. The Type-S motor will be more powerful. Rumored to be a 3.5 and 3.7L v6. A TL test mule was reported to have plenty of power. In fact thats what a spy photographer said. It went over speed limit. Those spy pics were posted here. The v6 is a type-s engine from what I have heard. Well most likely. SH-AWD will probably be used in the upscale models. The new implementation will have more power going to the rear wheels.
RL will debut in Chicago. TSX is a possibility. New York will probably be a TL concept/prototype. The Type-S TSX could debut a year later.
Just some info.
2009 Acura TSX color chart. Some of the colors will be on the RL and maybe the 09 TL.
All models with navigation will have XM traffic and weather support. Navigation on next gen models will have a interface dial. Enhanced bluetooth and navigation are expected.
RL will get a 3.5 liter but most likely 3.7L engine with 306 HP. Lots more torque with the 3.7L engine. Ventillated seats will be on the 09 RL. Canada and other countries have had them so now its americas turn to have them. Edgier styling is expected. Expect a Chicago debut.
TSX will be FWD but SH-AWD will be offered later. Color charts have been leaked. will go on sale in late april. Navi will have weather updates. Turbo i4 is pretty much confirmed. Probably with SH-AWD. 5AT or 6MT transmission. 6AT is probably an RL, TL debut then go to other cars. Diesel will also debut later. Possibly with SH-AWD. As always, enhanced bluetooth and navigation will also debut on this model. Official TSX details will be released in April.
Hope this helps.
Seriously, I think Acura has gotten a little bit carry away with that shield grill design. Can someone tell the Acura designers that IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD. It was "blah" on the MDX and definitely is "yikes" on the RL.
Also, I thought the '09 RL only shares 2 body panels with the '08 but can anyone see that? After all, besides the ugly grill and headlamps the car looks the same to me.
To Acura: This is not going to get you back into the game!!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nothing dramatic here...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Acura should just let us know if they are tired of selling cars, we'll understand...
Which part of the "the RL needs a V8" do they not understand. Granted that Honda was built by engineers but I swear Acura will be destroyed by those same stubborn engineers as well.
:sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The grille design looks like it came off from the "Saturn Outlook" a little bit. The headlights remind of a 21K priced 07+ Camry but why?
"Also, I thought the '09 RL only shares 2 body panels with the '08 but can anyone see that?"
Well "the hood" looks different than the 08 and the bottom of the front end looks different from the 05+ RL but looks similar to the 04+ Acura TL.
Yeah but BMW and Mercedes sell trucks too.
Well maybe the Aura could be competitive against the TSX. GM better leave it up to the Caddy CTS to compete with cars like the Acura TL(in the TL's class.)
Yeah, I hear you, all the luxury brands do it, with Lexus the worst offender of all. My point was that Acuras used to stand apart, but no longer. And if it is going to be the cushy-sedan-and-SUV company, well, the Lex/BMW/MB models are all more desirable if you ask me. More cachet, availability of RWD, more appealing styling to me personally (esp MB here) etc. Of course, it's a moot point, as I wouldn't want ANY of them.
These days the best deals are to be found in the mainstream brands that are reaching up and out of the standard fare to offer special versions of their mainstream cars. In this category I include your fave, Mazda (Sales up 10% for the year in '07, partly because of what I am talking about here), as well as Subaru. I keep a close eye on Honda in the hopes it will also do more of the SI-type treatments on its common models and offer more unconventional models. I look forward with great anticipation to the rebirth of the CRX (CR-Z concept). By contrast, there is nothing in the pipeline at Acura that I look forward to with any interest at all. The death of the RSX/Integra has probably ended my interest in Acura.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Lexus: uch! The only thing Lexus has that stands out to me is the IS and the LS 460. I mean ok the LS 460 is a bread and butter product but at least it stands out on the road and its not that "lets cater to the masses exterior styling" that Toyota/Lexus is often guilty of. I would take the TL over the ES any day. As for BMW what happened to their styling? The 7 Series: yuck. The 5 Series is not that appealing looking to me but other than that its the correct size and has a V-8. The 3 Series is a good car though. Its finally the right size in my opinion for a person like myself.
I don;t think the TL and TSX are cushy riding cars. I have never driven any of those 2 models but I haven;t heard anybody say that the TL and TSX are cushy riding cars.
I
What's wrong? Seems they still have a severe case of "Lack of Confidence" combined with "Lack of Testosterone".
There is no fundamental reason why the Acura RL couldn't be redesigned to be the one and only premium sports sedan competitor to a BMW 535i or 550i. Lexus has absolutely nothing, Infiniti is mired in schizophrenia, Audi is about a quarter ton overweight and stuck (as is the RL) on AWD,....
But, apparantly, Acura thinks because it can't sell a glorified AWD Accord for $45k, it is incapable of designing and selling a REAL premium sport sedan for $50k+. They aren't afraid to incrementlaly sneak the price of a loaded MDX up into Mercedes and BMW territory, but they seem to have no confidence in the company's ability to compete in the serious sport sedan segment. Meanwhile, everybody else has been discombobulated and kept the window of opportunity open, but nobody at Acura appears to have the testosterone or body parts to go for it. Pitiful underachievement if you ask me.
And let me ask you readers: Name a car other than the 535i 6-speed or 550i 6-speed that is virtually unchallenged in its niche segment? Certainly the 335i has more competition, albeit generally inferior. The luxury oriented slushbox only sedan market - GS, E-class, A6, Jag, M35/45, etc. is loaded with alternatives. But if one really appreciates driving dynamics and driver interaction in a mid size vehicle, the 5-series is it. What doesn't Acura marketing see in that opportunity. The last friggin thing we need is another poopy, unispired, technogadget do-dadded super Accord.
Is there anybody who was responsible for the S2000 still in the house??
To be honest, the whole senior Acura team needs to be fired and overhauled.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080218/ANA04/802180311/1203-
Among them, that more exciting news was coming their way at the next dealer meeting in April! :-P
But also that they can expect to Acura to move closer to becoming a "Tier 1" brand, similar to MB, BMW, Lexus, in the next year.
Wow, is the new NSX and a couple of warmed-over existing models going to accomplish all that?! They also promised to distinguish the brand more from Honda. Obviously that would be a real useful thing to do. But I dunno: a loaded Accord EX-L V-6 has a lot of equipment, is a decent performer, and has an entry-lux price tag. Don't get me started on the Pilot. So what kind of meaningful distinctions between the two brands are they going to be able to create in a year?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, they seem to have lost their way when they moved from trying to be "sporty", (i.e the original NSX, the Integra, the RSX) and tried to move more into the "near luxury" market...
What's the point of buying a TL when an Accord also has a powerful V6, leather interior, wood trim, nav system, etc....? It just comes down to styling preference.
Although, I will say, they do a better job of differentiating the RDX from the CR-V and the MDX from the Pilot.
That's what people wrote when the 2003 Accord showed up the 2003 TL. Then, when the redesigned 2004 TL hit the streets, it became the best selling car in the segment (for 2004 and 2005). The overlap between these cars lasts one year and, yes, I agree they are too close for comfort. But when both reach their FMC, the TL has shown why it's in the Acura line. I certainly hope it does so again.
I'm beginning to think Habbitat1 is right. Acura has seemed timid about getting into the ring with the big boys. When compared with any other AWD, V6-powered large luxury sedan, the current RL holds its ground quite nicely. The problem is that isn't where the action is at. That is a small, unloved niche within the market. Acura needs to go head to head sooner or later.
If they move the TL upmarket any further it really overlaps the RL at that point.
My original point was, way back in say 1989, an Accord only came with cloth seats, 4 cylinder engine - if you wanted to 'step up' you needed to get a Legend (or maybe the Vigor was out by then I forget)... Anyway, it just seems to me that Honda has moved upmarket to where Acura used to be, and Acura hasn't moved far enough upmarket, so now they overlap a lot.
There does need to be a significant gap between the mainstream products and the luxury products. Right now, Acura's gap is not great, but I have seen worse. I think 5-10 years ago that gap was actually less than it is now. My 2001 TL was not significantly fancier than the 2001 Accord. It was 225 hp from a 3.2 vs 200 hp from a 3.0. The TL even had a single disk CD player. The original MDX and Pilot were also a bit too close for comfort. The Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti cars and trucks had similar issues. I would argue that their issues were actually worse in the late 90's up through 2002ish.
Nissan and Infiniti have probably come the farthest in fixing the problem, but I think Acura has made some improvements, too.
I think a larger issue for Acura was the roll-out of the sedans. The TSX, TL, and RL all hit the market at roughly the same time (2004-2005). They all got old together. Now the only sedans on the lot are older models. There's nothing to generate buzz, except the RDX and MDX. And they missed with the RDX. They need to stagger the releases better.
They need to stagger the releases better.
I dunno .... to me the real problem is they are right on top of each other...not the timing.... Lexus doesn't have to worry about staggering the release of the LS vs. the GS vs. the ES because they don't overlap
Unless they move the RL upmarket, the new TL will be right on top of it. They should just drop the RL unless they move it upmarket. IMO
I recently read, and then heard from an Edmunds poster who got it from a different source than mine, that Acura will introduce at least one RWD large sedan in the 2011-2012 time frame.
Then there's the fact that their 3 sedans trip all over each other now that the '09 TSX has bulked up and sized up. Once they stick in the turbo from the RDX, which they will need to do if they hope to improve sales, there will be little to nothing of substance to differentiate the 3.
Plus, they are down to a lineup consisting solely of some fairly boring sedans and boring-by-definition crossovers. They can't rely on the next NSX to provide the only excitement in the whole lineup. How about a few fun models - roadsters, sport coupes, something a bit smaller that will actually feel nimble when you drive it?
I have heard the latest ads for the new TSX, and the only innovation it they point out is that you can now get live restaurant reviews as you are driving down the road. TALK ABOUT "who cares". Honda and Acura used to be about engineering, sport, and fun. Now it is about Bluetooth, traffic updates, and restaurant reviews. It's actually kinda gross.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It actually makes sense. By enabling/encouraging people to eat more, with the restaurant reviews, they have to make their cars larger. Also, as drivers' thoughts are focused on Bluetooth, traffic, and other garbage, their desire for responsiveness and nimbleness is diminished, as their satisfaction with comfortable cruisers increases. Hey, Buick has known this for years..
Exterior: Not a fan of the new exterior styling, especially the new Acura corporate grille. The old pentagon design was more sleeker and less "WTF...". I've noticed excessive orange peel on the black demo I drove and the paint quality is obviously not as good as other luxury brands like Lexus, MB and BMW. It's very Honda-like.
Interior: Fit and finish is very good, on par with the Honda/Acura standard. The dashboard has a strong BMW feel to it, the reason of that is due to where the navigation screen is located, right at the center and on top of the A/C vents. Given that I am not a fan of the BMW dashes, I too do not like the new design in the TSX. The old style of having the screen incorporated within the center stack looks much better in my opinion. The big down side of the interior is the utilization of the hard plastic panels. The lower half of all panels inside the car including the dashboard, center stack, center console and door panels are all made of hard plastics. Although the quality is high but it felt cheap when touching it. Also, the aluminum trim is gone and replaced by the metallic paint on plastic; to me that's okay but kind of a downgrade from the previous gen. The interior volume has dramatically improved over the last model, I am 6'1 and were able to sit comfortably in the backseat even after I adjusted the driver seat to my ideal driving position. The best part of the interior is the steering wheel, it is thick and feels very good holding on to it. The seats are supportive but again the leather quality is lacking compare to the leading luxury brands.
Driving: Right off the line the car felt much faster than the previous model, which is not a surprise given that this new 2.4 I4 has 6 more lb-ft of torque. However, when pushed hard, the lack of horsepower immediate shows, in my opinion 201hp is definitely not enough for this car. I took the car around PV on some twisty roads to test the steering response, overall it's very precise and the car will go where the wheel is pointed at. Suspension is firm but very comfortable on rocky roads, the car felt very confident through corners with minimal body roll. One criticism I have for the new TSX is that Acura has replaced the hydraulic power steering with electric-assist. Because of that, the road feel is not as "crisp" as the previous gen and the steering felt much lighter. Oh by the way, the brake is very Honda-mushy as expected.
Overall I would say this is an mediocre effort from Acura. It won't shock the world but will continue to provide a decent product to the customers who are looking for an affordable entry level luxury sedan.
We all know what happens when the accountants run the show (GM in the 80s and 90s).
And any increase in hard interior plastics and painted plastic trim instead of real metal trim in a brand that claims to want to go upmarket in the next few years is a very bad idea.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=767141
This is an early mule. Probably used to test out the drivetrain in the next gen RL.
Acura sales may rise with the product direction the company is taking now, but where is the soul of the company?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's the problem in the industry, soul doesn't sell...
Enthusiasts would say that:
Lexus has no soul - but it is the leading luxury brand in the US
The ISx50 has no soul compare to the old IS300 - well, sales number doesn't lie...
Toyota has no soul - only 15k units away (monthly) from claiming the number 1 spot from GM
e90/92 has no soul compare to the old e46/e36 - but they are selling better than ever
Accords are getting less "soul" generation after generation - but the sales go up year after year...
I can go on but you get the picture.
If you are running the company and has shareholders to answer to, what would you do?
It's in the MDX.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)