By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I wonder how well that C30 is selling.
If Acura insists on outblanding the other luxury makes, then its only edge in a few short years will be price. It is precious close to reaching that point already.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think it's selling well given that I haven't seen one on the road yet...
Seriously, a Honda powertrain in that car, and Acura-grade materials inside, would make it irresistible. Provided they could keep the price on par with the Mini Cooper S, of course. Volvo got the price part right, it just needs a slightly better, more refined engine, a better stick shift, and a nudge upscale on the inside.
The TSX powertrain would be perfect in a smaller lighter car like this C30 imitator...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'll just get a Civic Si...
I know it's a bit bigger but it handles just as good. What Acura can do is bring the JDM Civic Type-R over, give it a different exterior/interior, price it at around $26k and call it a day...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
S2000. The best vehicle made by either Honda or Acura.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2009: 2010 RDX MMC (Facelift), 2010 MDX MMC (Facelift), Rumored 50 to 60K sports car aka NSX lite, Rumored TSX v6 possibly Diesel TSX, New Infiniti FX like Crossover (50 to 60K pricerange)
2010: 2011 NSX sucessor but could be MY2010, 2011 RL FMC
2011: 2012 TL MMC 2012 TSX FMC
Hope this helps.
A v10 is also in the works for the NSX sucessor. Thats also not new but a DSG gearbox is expected. The new NSX will likely beat the GT-R in performance. Must be superlight with that AWD system. Might have to be as light as a Gallardo Supperleggera. Then again that model is the stripped down performance model. The LP560 also weighs less too. Honda will have one monster if the keep the weight down to 3,000 lbs.
And after all, you can't have the RL outpowered by its own sibling (the TL SH-AWD)!
Acura sales down 15% this year....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
How about some frickin' CARS, Acura?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What the eff are you thinking with the X6 fighter?!
How should I start... Well, first of all, you have a fairly pathetic (comparably speaking) product, the TSX, for the entry level lux sedan market, which is the bread and butter for ALL luxury brands. Then you have a pretty pathetic product (sales wise and styling) for the midsize lux sedan market, which is the second bread and butter for ALL luxury brands. Also, since your RDX, which is sort of a sporty crossover, isn't doing as well as expected what makes you think that an Acura X6 can do better than a Bimmer X6?
Granted that you have 2 bright stars in the MDX and TL but just based on how you messed up the styling on the new TL I would be worried if I were you... Forgive me for being frank but honestly your product line SUCKS. You have 3 sedans and 2 SUVs with 2 of the sedans and 1 of the SUVs sucking... What makes you think that a X6 would be the correct move right now?
Regards,
louiswei
Next RL and NSX will not disappoint hopefully. The new RL could use a version of the crossover's platform. Thats if it's a RWD based one.
And will it somehow do that in a way the MDX doesn't already?
I predict the X6 will be BMW's sales equivalent of Mercedes' latest bright idea, the minivan AKA R-series. And if Acura brings their own X6 to the market, woe betide them. Woe indeed.
How about a couple of really great, sporty CARS Acura? And while you're at it, overblown navigation systems and concert hall audio systems be damned! Put the money in the mechanicals where it belongs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So far, all I've seen is speculation that the next generation RL or the RL's replacement may be (not will be) RWD.
Who needs it? Almost everybody have iPod these days
As for the sporty cars, have you missed the rumors about the next "NSX"?
This "MSX" thing looks to be a simple variant of the MDX (or possibly the TL). That is something Acura can whip up relatively quick and easy.
The only way Acura could get a new sport coupe or sedan to market before this vehicle would be if they used an existing platform. Do you really want another CL or RL? The last thing Acura needs is another FWD car. I would much rather see them take their time and produce a RWD coupe or the large sedan mule we've seen in spy shots.
How about a TL-coupe (with a revised nose please...) on the SH-AWD platform with the 6-speed manual? That'll be a pretty hot car imo (again, with the revised nose...). Why not drop a turbo into the TSX and make it more competitive in its class? A TSX coupe with SH-AWD and the turbo-4 will be an excellent addition to the lineup, no?
As you can see, there are many things Acura can be doing right now and a halo car is the last thing that it needs. Even a true flagship such as the LS/7er/S fighter will be a better option than a halo crossover...
What ails Acura will not be cured until it has a proper sport coupe that costs significantly less than six figures, and the cars in the lineup outnumber the high-roofed wagon/truck-wannabes two to one, or more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What would differentiate this proposed AWD CL from the AWD TL? When Acura released the last CL, they gave it the Type S treatment. Within a year, the same hardware (minus the manual tranny) was added to the TL and sales of the CL dropped off the map. Given that the TL already has SH-AWD, the 3.7L engine, and a manual tranny on the way, the CL you're proposing would never stand a chance.
Granted, they could differentiate the CL from the TL using styling - something the last pair failed to do - but, if you were Acura, would you be gambling on your stylists ability to produce the winning element of a car's design?
As for the TSX, it is getting a V6.
And Acura is already developing a large RWD sedan. We've seen the mule for it a few times. I'd rather they get that platform finished and use THAT to develop a new coupe. Again, this is a better way to go than giving us another generation of the FWD platform.
And while that vehicle is in development, the rest of the Acura engineers should sit on their bottoms?
"...and the cars in the lineup outnumber the high-roofed wagon/truck-wannabes two to one, or more."
Lexus: 3 sedans, one coupe, and 3 SUVs.
BMW: 3 sedans, 3 coupes, 3 SUVs, 2 wagons, and 1 roadster.
Infiniti: 2 sedans, 1 coupe, and 2 SUVs.
Cadillac: 3 sedans, 2 SUVs, 1 roadster, and 1 truck.
BMW: well, you can call me on this if you like and we will just agree to disagree, but I count the wagons BMW makes as cars. They are not just wagons in name: they are low-slung driver's machines, not high-roofed pretenders. So I count 9 cars, 3 SUVs. Questions? :-P
Infiniti: yes, well ol' Infiniti seems to be constantly trying to find their way. I wouldn't put them forward as an example of a particularly HEALTHY car division. Year after year, they are also-rans to BMW/MB/Lexus.
Cadillac: where does their moxy come from? The CTS, and now the CTS-V. Nobody came rushing back to Cadillac to buy an SRX, which has been a model that sold more slowly than they were hoping for. The Escalade, well that will be one of those peculiarities that we will look back at in 50 years and say, "yeah, Americans really WERE crazy during that era, weren't they?". I am having trouble thinking of what the second SUV is, or did you mean the Escalade SUT is Cadillac's "truck"?
Bottom line: Acura's problems will not be solved by mimicking Lexus, that will just break the heart of every fan Acura has had over the years. BMW is a car-centric company, now wading perilously far into SUV waters. Cadillac's resurgence came solely in cars, and Infiniti has never had a proper resurgence, a few years of healthy G35 (a CAR model) sales notwithstanding.
Acura needs very much to be a DRIVER's car company. How about some really exciting new CARS Acura? And keeping them in the magic $30-40K price window?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Another thing is it's hard to identify their hi-po models unless you're already a fan. You want the fast Lexus? Look for the "-F". A fast BMW? Look for the M. Mercedes? Look for the AMG.
But SH-AWD? How about going back to type-R?
And yes, I will be waiting for those "more exciting cars to drive".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You claim that Acura needs more sporty coupes. Then you give an explanation for how Lexus achieved their goals without sporty coupes.
You wrote that the Lexus LX doesn't matter because it's a low-volume halo SUV. Yet, all expectations suggest the Acura in question was designed to be sold as a low-volume halo SUV. Why does Lexus get a pass on this, but not Acura?
You claim that Acura needs a specific ratio of sexy cars to SUVs, then use the fact that BMW sells wagons as proof of the company's sex appeal. Wagons!?!? Forget the obvious sex appeal issues... If you're going to use the slow-selling nature of the Lexus SUVs as ammo against Lexus, then I gotta point out how few wagons are sold by BMW. (Better yet, remember the Lexus Sportcross?) Furthermore, I should point out how well the Cayenne has sold for Porsche and the Escalade for Cadillac. If sales volume matters for one marque, it should matter for all.
Acura needs to find "a way" to move toward their tier 1 goal. They might achieve that with sporty cars. They might achieve it with luxurious interiors. They might do it with high tech electronics and entertainment systems. They might do it with styling that allows a driver to scare everyone else out of their chosen lane. What Acura needs to produce is desire. There are a lot of ways Acura could do this. However, I cannot find any reason (other than your own personal preferences) for why they need a specific ratio of cars to SUVs or a specific type of vehicle.
Look at the problem another way... if a sporty driving experience is so important, where does Acura's best chance at beating BMW lie?
The RL has never beaten its BMW counterpart.
The TL and CL have never beaten their BMW counterparts.
The TSX has never beaten its BMW counterpart.
Has any recent Acura model ever been ranked higher than a BMW on the criteria of performance? Why, yes, both the MDX and RDX have earned that distinction. One can argue that Acura's SUVs are not better overall, but the Acuras have been showing their taillights to the BMWs at the track.
No, I'm not suggesting that Acura become the Porsche of the SUV world. They should not dedicate their entire line to sport utilities. However, I have no problem with them taking a pot shot at BMW (and Infiniti's FX) as long as it is easy for them to do so. A win is a win, and this "MSX" looks like a cheap, easy way to build a winner.
Is this an important segment? Heck no. But any win over the competition is a step in the right direction. That is not a bad thing to be doing while we wait for Acura to develop the "NSX", the RWD RL, and whatever else they've got up their sleeves.
Disagree whole-heartedly.
Acura's focus right now should be building reputation by making more worthy fighters to its luxury brand counterparts for the POPULAR/BREAD AND BUTTER segments. For example like Infiniti's G35, M35/45, Lexus' LS460, IS350/250 and even its own TL (at least the previous gen, the jury is still out on the current one). It doesn't have to be class-leading but it has to be POPULAR and sells well.
If Acura has unlimited resource and funding then I have no objection for them on making a X6-fighter. However, since I am pretty sure that's not the case so I think that funding could be used in some more critical area. Developing a TL-based SH-AWD CL really is indepedent to the RWD platform development. Given that the current FWD-based SH-AWD will serve the TL for at least another 5 years I don't see why can't Acura makes a coupe version out of it. The current TSX will be on the market for at least another 4 to 5 years why not give it SH-AWD and a coupe version? Personally I think any these options would be a better choice for Acura at this point of time.
You claim that Acura needs a specific ratio of sexy cars to SUVs,
No I don't, and didn't mean to imply it. Sex doesn't enter the equation, they just need to build driver's cars. The example in question, BMW, makes even its wagons fun to drive.
You mention the Cayenne and the Escalade, both of which had sales that fell right off ther bottom of the charts as soon as the gas prices hit their highs this year. Cayenne, in fact, had started its sales fade well before that, and Escalade was a brand new model that wouldn't sell.
What I was trying but failing to make clear about Lexus is that they are sort of a unique example: a luxury car company that everybody accepts will build boring snooze-mobiles that drive themselves. But they are the nicest, most-pampering, most-coddling, most-reliable snoozemobiles around, and they are generally accepted as a luxury marque now, so they make hay in sales despite not having a single driver's car worth mentioning. I do expect the new -F program to fail, as Lexus has gone too far away from any sort of a performance mission to make theri way back at this point, IMO. But again, special case.
Is Acura, son of Honda, a driver's car company? Or is it at this point the best-damn-NAV-and-DVD-A company? Anybody can make great stereo and NAV systems. Not everybody can make a great driver's car.
And BTW, it does not impress me if a vehicle which by its VERY NATURE IS NOT SPORTY (an SUV) can be made by Acura to "outsport" its competition. Let's see them do it with their cars, something I remain convinced (but not for much longer) they can do.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You do realize that Acura's TL has consistently sold more copies than Infiniti's G35 and the Lexus 250/350, right? In 2004 and 2005, the TL sold more copies than the 3 series. Since 1999, the TL has been a near or at the top of the sales charts. If your criteria for building reputation is popularity and sales success, then Acura should already have what it needs in the $30-40 sedan bracket.
When it comes to the RL, I am in complete agreement. They need to build a better competitor for the M35/45, the LS or GS cars, and the 5 series. And they are. If you haven't seen them already, there are spy pics floating around on the web that suggest a large RWD sedan is in development. Fukui just confirmed the development of a V8 that presumably goes with it.
Bottom line... by your standards, Acura already has the TL segment covered. And it looks like they have a good attempt coming for the RL's segment. The bread and butter issues are being addressed. So, let's wipe that problem off the list.
As for why I don't think Acura should build a coupe based on the TL, please refer back to post #898. In short, we saw what that plan accomplished with the last CL, and producing another would postpone the development of a REAL RWD coupe.
On the issue of funding, I don't think that is an issue. I know it's tempting to think that tossing more money at the problem will result in a better solution, but that's not the only way to look at it. If you need 2 gallons of paint to cover the walls in your room, buying 4 gallons isn't going to make the job go faster. Instead, use those extra gallons on another room. Acura has engineers with experience building performance CUVs and neither of the current ones needs an FMC. Give those engineers something to do.
If you didn't mean to imply that Acura needs a specific ratio of cars to CUVs, what did you mean?
From where I stand, this new MSX thing looks like a car infused with genuine sport and character. Yeah, I'd rather it wasn't an SUV (CUV), but it still represents a step in the right direction. Based on the little that we know/assume, this vehicle has all the qualities we want in a tier 1 Acura. It appears to have dynamic styling, it's positioned well above the Honda brand, it may even have a V8, and it has a real chance at beating both BMW and Infiniti on the track. Even if you don't like SUVs, you've got to see this is a step in the right direction.
Now, I agree that the market is turning away from SUVs a bit - especially the big ones and the BOFs. But let me ask you something: how vehemently did you poo-poo Honda for building the Prelude well after the bottom fell out of the market for mid-priced sporty coupes?
Another tidbit to consider... You wrote of BMW that "even its wagons fun to drive". If you are impressed that wagons (despite their non-sporty nature) can be made fun to drive, then what possible reason do you have for not being impressed with CUVs that accomplish the same trick?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that if the caption under exactly the same spy photo read "5 series wagon fighter" this conversation would be very, very different. This has nothing to do with Acura's direction. This has nothing to do with their product mix. This is not about the market. You simply prefer cars to SUVs. You want a coupe or a truly sporty sedan and you don't have the patience to wait for it. (Hey, it's been a long time coming. I don't blame you for losing patience.) So you're bashing the products that are coming out while those cars are still being developed. (That's the part I cannot get behind.)
Thus the statement:
For example like Infiniti's G35, M35/45, Lexus' LS460, IS350/250 and even its own TL (at least the previous gen, the jury is still out on the current one)
What I was trying to say is that Acura needs more models like the TL and less models like the RDX.
As for why I don't think Acura should build a coupe based on the TL, please refer back to post #898. In short, we saw what that plan accomplished with the last CL, and producing another would postpone the development of a REAL RWD coupe.
That's not a valid execuse and I'll give you two reasons: Infiniti G coupe and BMW 3-series coupe. Both coupes actually helped the overall sales instead of hurting it. With a sexy enough sheetmetal on top of the SH-AWD and 6-speed manual I can see a winner in the CL. The coupe shouldn't be practical, if Acura is thinking practical while designing the coupe then they have already failed halfway. The coupe should be sexy, fun to drive and handles well, it should be able to explore a different group of buyers instead of stealing them from the sedan. The G coupe did that, 3er coupe did that and I have no doubt that Acura/Honda has the capability to do that too.
By the way, I still don't understand why a CL based on the CURRENT 6-speed SH-AWD TL would "postpone" the RWD development. Like I said, the current gen TL will be on the market for at least another 5 years, let me repeat, at least another 5 years. It's not like Acura will give it RWD during the midlife refresh so what's wrong with a TL-based CL with sexier styling and sportier-tuned suspension? Same applies to the TSX too.
Anyways, I am holding my ground saying that there are many other places where the funding can go before developing a X6 fighter.
Because BMW's wagons are both fun to drive and PRACTICAL!
Have you seen the X6? Edmunds IL called it perfectly pointless because it handles brilliantly as a BMW for a CUV but is poinless is a CUV is supposed to be PRACTICAL. Why would anyone want to buy a CUV that can only hold 4 people and has less cargo space than a midsize sedan? The only reason the X6 is selling (not well) right now is because it carries a badge with 'BMW' written on it. To be perfectly honest, if you think a same car can sell while carrying a badge with 'A' on it then you are loco...
Perhaps the upcoming AWD cars, new NSX, and V-8 for many models will substantially improve their fortunes, but that's a big question mark in my mind. I will wait patiently to see. But if I have $30 grand to spend on a car in the next couple of years, it won't be on an Acura. Probably a Subaru turbo instead - much more of a driver's car and a driver's brand than Acura is these days.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What's "FMC?"
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Anybody else think Acura and Honda are becoming Toyotized?
Look at the TL. I drive a 2005 model and even it is almost too big. It wallows in turns and is too soft. The new one is HUGE! I don't like big cars, I sold my A4 and got the TL because the kids were growing and I needed a bigger back seat.
Take the TSX. The old one was a really nice car. I got a brand new one as a loaner recently and while it is nice, it is a lot larger. It's heading toward where the old TL is.
These cars are slowly losing their agility and becoming BOATS! It used to be that Honda was the poor man's BMW. I guess it's going to have to be Mazda now, as Acura is getting soft.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)