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Comments
Honda is still going to make a profit even though automakers are losing money. It won't be a very big profit but still a profit nonetheless.
Regarding Acura's tier one aspirations, the new TL is a step backward, and substituting SH-AWD for RWD architecture doesn't help either, in my opinion. Further, moving into tier one is made more difficult by virtue of the fact that the Acura brand has virtually no heritage. Heritage seems to be important to luxury car buyers. It's kind of a chicken and egg phenomenon. I don't think it's hopeless for Acura, but it'll take more than a V8 to break into the top rank. For proof, look no further than the Infiniti Q. It had a wonderful V8, but the Q has been relegated to the dust bin of automotive history.
Infiniti and Lexus and even Cadillac have far surpassed Acura's offerings.
It is Euro Accord
The real RSX should have remained the Integra and they should have continued to sell it. You can bet if they had they wouldn't have been looking at close to a 20% drop in sales last year. Even if they had taken the Integra and turned it in to a serious sports car, a mini-NSX if you will, with a 50% higher price it would have continued to sell better than every other individual model. That's my bet anyway.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They would KILL if they did this. If they truly want to be tier 1 some day, they need a couple of superlative RWD platforms and some stand-out cars, not a couple of fairly uninteresting sedans and 26 crossovers of slightly different style and excess girth and mass.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So I'm not the only one who thinks this is a losing proposition? Glad to hear it. I think it ignores emerging trends rather than embracing them.
At least Honda has a game plan on what they are doing and have been doing it, unlike other companys that are claiming that they knew all along. Its too late for excuses now. In my opinion we take something more from an already good thing. Of course anything and everyone can improve. But, they are the least of our problems. If anything they are keeping our industry afloat on many levels.
The styling is also very backwards. The G makes the TL look like a crashed F-22. :shades:
I plan to get a TSX, if they offer the V6, I might opt for that. It'll probably be priced to where the tech and V6 are priced about the same for the upgrade. That would be excellent. Or, is they offered a 2.0T in the TSX, I would jump on that too. Or maybe a V6 turbo, on the TSX. That would be fun. lol. wow.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If Honda is going to go the RWD route, it will need a fresh platform, designed for the ground up. And knowing them, IF
My, it's making me sleepy already!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I remain unclear on Acura's product plans beyond 2010. As an Acura owner and car enthusiast, that puzzles me. Will Acura replace the RL with a RWD sedan? How about the next generation TL, given that the current one seems to generate less enthusiasm than the previous two generations.
I'm less concerned about whether Acura will introduce a V8 than many, because I think that direct injection and turbocharged V6s can produce more than enough power.
Acura deserves for this strategy to fail, but just as Toyota sells a million Camrys and half a million ES350s, Acura will probably manage to stay afloat selling the stuff they have now. You are absolutely right though, they will never get to tier 1 this way. And if they're not very careful, they will begin to lose Acura sales to Hyundai by the hundreds and thousands. O the humanity!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Acura doesn't have a single vehicle that I'd buy at the moment. Nor does it have anything in the pipeline that I can look forward to. In fact, since electronic features and gadgetry are as much of a turn off as a turn on for me, my enthusiasm for many new models is luke warm.
Horsepower used to be exciting, but in an era when there are virtually no more underpowered cars, brute power doesn't do it for me anymore, either. For this reason, I don't lust for cars such as the BMW M-Power, Mercedes AMGs, Lexus F models, Cadillac (can't remember what they call their Corvette-powered CTS) and Pontiac G8 GXP. They're over-the-top for me. The same doesn't apply to the Corvette. The base Corvette appeals to me, as does the Boxter. They're smaller and less ponderous than the cars mentioned previously. They're also less practical, but that hardly matters when you're dreaming.
Ditto.
Horsepower used to be exciting, but in an era when there are virtually no more underpowered cars, brute power doesn't do it for me anymore, either
We are so in sync here it's scary. The slowest cheapest cars on the market today have more then enough power to be decently zippy off the line and maintain highway speed on hills, etc etc. Something middle of the market like a GTI 2.0 or a Civic SI is plenty fast for my needs. I have never thought Honda needed to have a V-8 for the Acura line, although it is possible a few people pass them up while they lack that "prestige" feature.
The V-6s they have are more than powerful enough, but the electronics and the steering remove the driver from the driving experience, so the cars still aren't fun to drive. I don't see Acura remedying this any time soon.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda/Acura could very well compete with and beat BMW if they chose a rwd platform for their RL, TL series. Honda usually has best vehicle for most categories they compete in, not too many failures. They can build a competent rwd car, they have done so with the S2000 roadster.
Seemed like Acura was on right track with 04 TL. Wife had an 01 TL and traded it in for an 04 in Oct 2003 which I now drive. The 04 was a huge improvement in style, design, performance over the 01. Do not understand why Acura did not merely evolve the 04-08 generation with refinements for 09+. The size of the 04-08 was just right.
When ready for next new car, doubt that we will seriously consider an Acura TL of the current generation.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The TSX being the entry car is for old ladies(no diasrespect intended) Find me a 2.0 liter like the Type S. My S is a drivers car. I also have a 2001 silver Integ
that people are trying to buy off me at 6K above book.(23k on it)
Yup, Acura goofed big time getting away from developing a low cost entry level performance car that was bullit proof.No way a Civic is an Acura.
Mazda has a better line of cars than Honda or Toyta I can't wait to see them compete in 2010. :shades:
Among some choice excerpts from the review:
There are drawbacks. Fuel economy drops to 21 mpg combined, something you might not expect for the smallest car in the Acura line. While the four-cylinder gets a six-speed manual or five-speed automatic, the TSX V6 comes with just the slushbox.
The electric steering was quick but not as communicative as we'd have liked and didn't deliver the same feel offered by, say, a 3-series.
The brakes feature the same diameter discs but get a new master cylinder and new rear pads. They, too, lacked the same feel we would have liked on a performance sedan. Going into fast corners, they didn't feel like they were grabbing those discs like a sport sedan should. Stopping distances felt longer than we might have expected.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090605/CARREVIEWS/906059995
And all that goodness for only 35-1/2 grand! :-/
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now, the second gen has come around and it's bigger, heavier and softer. And Honda did nothing to raise the power which was disappointing. I think they knew this and that's where the Big V6 comes in. Too bad it's probably going to turn a once balanced, racy sports sedan into a nose heavy boulevard cruiser :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
BMW is not their main competitor. Lexus and Infiniti are. Honda should do for the Acura brand, what it did for the Accord.
TL goes from beautiful to very edgy, some say ugly, bigger, more of a barge
TSX goes from handsome to bigger, more numb, edgier (but not as ugly as TL)
It looks like Acura is moving toward a budget Lexus approach. They are losing the smaller, agile vehicles. Similarly to the Accord, which used to be an agile, sporty midsized sedan and has turned into a big, soft barge (sporty if you used to drive a Buick or Toyota).
Unfortunately I liked Honda and Acura *because* of the smaller and agile handling, with at least handsome styling. Although I'm getting older and softer, my automotive tastes are NOT. The new Acura sedans are NOT very attractive to me. I'll probably be looking at Mazda now, as I want a good value with good handling. Something like the Mazda 3 or 6. I like VWs but the Passat has gotten ugly and I don't like their reliability and cost-of-maintenance issues. Not sure what else in the marketplace would offer that combination.
Of course, Acura is just trying to cater to what the "luxury market" is supposed to be in the U.S. Here "luxury" means squishy-handling, quiet, big-engined, and packed with every convenience feature they could possibly cram in there. Even BMW is increasingly going that route.
Most enthusiasts will hunger for something completely different from their car, and while Acura used to have it, it doesn't have it now and won't have it in the future. Which is too bad.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I had a 1998 Audi A4 (5-speed) and it was a wonderful car in most respects. I bought my current 2005 Acura TL (auto) when my kids got too big for the Audi's back seat. Even my TL is a bit too large and floaty for my tastes -- I like the previous TSX better than my TL in the size and handling department. My TL is a borderline barge cruiser with some semblance of sportiness. It's also a really nice looking car.
I don't particularly care for the look of the new A4. And the prices have gone sky high. My 6 cyl A4 ran me about $32K in 1998. That same car today is over $40K.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree that Honda's approach to inovation is too timid. They built some great cars like you mention the S2000 that beat the pants off all the competition. It waled on the Boxster, the TT, little Benz, and ... everything else in that class. The NSX is another example where Honda built the best 'Ferrari' ever!! Small volume but very competent with a powerfull 6-cyl. I would like to see Honda / Acura go BOLD again!!! The Element is a cool vehicle, but somehow Honda got it jacked up in the marketing dept. Toyota hit it just right with their Scion line. Cheap entry and double the price with accessories... Honda NEVER got that, -- and the sales figures are showing it!!!
I talked to a woman a couple of weeks back here who just got a new Element for her vending business (she's hauling lightweight junk around, not the machines). She loves it.
I think when the automakers get bold, the bean counters think Aztek.
Now, if Honda came out with another roadster, but priced like the Miata, or even less ....
Those of us who have last gen TLs (04-08), we may just do that waiting to see if Acura fixes up the current gen or has another model coming out. Who knows that they might be secretly developing a rwd competitior to BMW or Infiniti. Could get tempted into rwd Acura sedan in spite of having 3-4 months winter in my area.
On driving forever, there is a guy in New York who has just recently completed three million miles in his 1965 Volvo P1800.
This kinda stuff is often a bit misleading. How many head jobs, transmission, engine bottom ends...? There was a diesel MBZ 180, early 60s with 1,000,000 miles on the original driveline! Now that is an accomplishment!
The new TL is too big and heavy, and handles like a large luxury barge. The TSX looks better than the TL, but the entry and exit space for rear seat passengers is severely compromised. The upshot of Acura's efforts to become a serious contender against the German luxury brands is falling short.
I used to be optimistic about Acura, but now I'm not. I'll just hold on to my excellent '99 TL until something more to my liking comes along.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What's sad is that Honda seems to have the best engineering talent of all the Japanese auto companies. Nissan/Infiniti has the right business model, FWD for Nissan and RWD for Infiniti, but Infiniti doesn't seem to be able to beat it's target German competitor, BMW. I think Infinitis are good cars, but "close" isn't good enough in this highly competitive marketplace. Also, I think Infinitis fall short on styling. While their styling isn't bad or offensive, it's bland and kind of sterile. It's not aspirational, as styling in the luxury category should be.
Back to Acura, I think that if management made the right strategic decisions, such as converting the brand to RWD, their engineers could execute on the direction required to compete effectively with the German luxury brands. It goes without saying that styling would also have to be totally rethought.
You want safe and boring, you buy the Lexus, no?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Back to Acura, SH-AWD and excellent crash test scores put Acura closer to the top IMO when I compare them to say, Lexus for instance. I believe Hondas mission with Acura is to rival Volvo and Audi (sorta) rather than go after BMW or Mercedes which is what Toyota is doing with Lexus and Nissan with Infiniti. :shades:
I completely agree. I bought the '05 TL because it was bigger than my A4 and still somewhat sporty, plus it looks good. I've already got 88K on it and except for some squeaks, has been reliable.
The new Acuras are soft bargy electronics wonders. The styling is getting questionable. I wonder if the 04-08 TLs will end up being valuable classic used Acuras, more so than the new generation?
I'm thinking that with the way the brands are evolving, in a few years when I replace my TL I may be going to Mazda.