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I suggested to the dealer to buy the 2004 vehicle back upon delivery but it will only fetch a 40-41 k and that's with a 59540 msrp. hmmmmm ----depreciates close to 20k even without leaving their lot.
We thought about taking the vehicle replacement and try selling it privately and maybe we can net a little more than 9k. A Navi with a msrp of 59540 (ultimate w/ dvd,chrome wheels) could possibly fetch in the high 40's but it seems like too much trouble for what it's worth. I wish Ford would allow an allowance for the Navigator's appreciation in 4 years. Hard hard decision. Really would like another Navi but will probably end up with a 04 w/ Luxury to make the numbers work out.
It is safe to assume that some individuals have had problems and posted messages here. We provide the forum. You provide the wisdom! :-)
tidester, host
I went back 2 pages and the only problem I see being discussed are 2 owners who have occasional problems with their liftgate.
If that scares you away, so be it.
MAJOR PRODUCT CHANGES
OVERVIEW
The refreshed 2005 Lincoln Navigator continues with the performance and style that sets it apart as a premium full size luxury SUV. The Navigator is Adventurous, Confident and Refined. The luxury features provide the functionality, versatility, and comfort that bring new buyers into the Lincoln showroom. All Lincoln vehicles will come with Complimentary Maintenance for the first 12 months/12,000 miles in service.
EXTERIOR CHANGES
• All new front fascia with redesigned bodyside
cladding, mold-in lower grille and redesigned fog
lamps
• Bodyside cladding color changed from grey to
black
• Upper grille in new silver finish
• Updated rear fascia
• Redesigned fixed running boards
Colors Added:
— Light Tundra Clearcoat Metallic (DV)
— Charcoal Beige Clearcoat Metallic (T7)
— Satellite Silver Clearcoat Metallic (T3)
— Vivid Red Clearcoat Metallic (G2)
Colors Deleted:
— Merlot Clearcoat Metallic
— Medium Wedgewood Blue Clearcoat
— Mineral Gray Clearcoat Metallic
Carryover Colors
— Black Clearcoat (UA)
— Silver Birch Clearcoat Metallic (JP)
— Oxford White Clearcoat (YZ)
— Light French Silk Clearcoat Metallic (G3)
— Cashmere Clearcoat Tri-coat (G4)
INTERIOR CHANGES
• Relocated the heated and cooled seat switches (if optioned) from floor console to Electronic
Temperature Control panel
• Heated and cooled seating temperature control
dial has been replaced with a 3-position button
• Redesigned floor shifter with chrome bezel
Colors Added:
— Camel with Light Parchment headliner (KC)
Colors Deleted:
— Light Parchment
Carryover Colors
— Dove Grey with Dove Grey headliner (KD)
FUNCTIONAL CHANGES
• New 5.4L 3V SOHC engine
• New ZF 6-speed automatic transmission for
improved performance, powertrain refinement and
fuel economy
SAFETY CHANGES
• AdvanceTrac® with Roll Stability Control (RSC) is now standard on both arrays
• Modified Tire Pressure Monitoring System
http://rangerovers.net/rrmkiiiremedies.html
From a reliability standpoint I don't see any major differences between the two. Neither will be perfect and neither have any long term or major problems that I'm aware of. I would not base your decision on reliability. Base it on features, price and personal preference.
Land Cruiser: Less features, less room, less power, quieter, high quality look and feel inside and out, perception of "high quality", good resale, and a small legion of dedicated owners who swear this is the best SUV on planet earth.
Why did I choose a Navigator? Power-fold and fold FLAT third row, room to fit a horse if you needed to, neat gadgets and gizmos everywhere you look, better warranty (4 years,50K miles with free maintenance for 3 years).
My lease is up in January. Will I get another one? I'm not sure.
Good luck!!!!
It's mostly about size though. They're not really comparable in size or capacities. I have 18 months on my lease too, and intend to get another one unless somebody comes up with some real competition. So far no one has. The QX-56 was a near miss, but a miss in my opinion.
I would put a couple of vehicles above the Land Cruiser actually just in functionality and power. As for perception, like I say "No one is paying my bills, so who cares what my friends say".... YET...whenever it's time to go out "Oh, I want to go in your car"...this when a few minutes earlier the car was insulted for being a Ford heh... Yet when I do some trick manuever to avoid an accident, suddenly the "WOW" comes into play when they see how well the car performs.
http://media.ford.com/products/presskit_display.cfm?vehicle_id=11- 12&press_section_id=403&press_subsection_id=421
Source: Ford Media
Thanks for the info... It's good to see Lincoln getting awards... they are headed in the right direction for SURE!
ANT.. thanks for the link... GREAT INFO! VERY subtle changes to that front. That new tranny sounds like a nice step up - a little more "uumph" and little more refinement,and from the sounds of the article, quieter as well. Neat.
Also, I hope to GOD that the "revised side cladding" means that no one will ever have to deal with flapping doors while doing 60 like I've had to for the past 2 years!!!!
The Zephyr will be FWD/AWD which is fine as it's entry level. But the rumour is the next 2 cars will be the Continental and a Town Car replacement and both will be AWD only built off the FWD Volvo S80 platform. No mention of a serious sports sedan to replace the LS. Looks like Lincoln is going the way of Audi instead of BMW/Mercedes/Cadillac/Chrysler. What a shame considering they had a 2-4 year headstart on GM and DC with the LS.
So you think a AWD sedan wouldn't be a credible alternative to the RWD LS ?
I think it can be a very good car and should have luxury in spades but whether it can fill the LS' shoes in the sports sedan department is questionable.
I think it's clear that this is being driven by budget concerns and having to use existing platforms rather than develop a brand new one. But that begs the question - why not use the Mustang platform instead?
The majority of those buyer's won't even know where the platform stems from. Just yesturday I walked into a "Ford Enthusiast site", and they thought the Taurus and Mondeo shared the same platform....and yet, no one has bothered to correct them. Wait till they hair their Conti and Freestar are also Taurus based, heh...
"But that begs the question - why not use the Mustang platform instead? "
You could, but again, we'll have people whining "But it's just a Mustang platform, it's just not enough"... IN this business, no matter what you do, you will never please anyone fully.
The P2 platform is very efficient in space, and is easily tailored. As for it being capable, they won't ignore the LS buyer's..if anything you might see an improvment in handling. But that program is still being planned out, so give it time.
They already have a platform. It's been amortized for over 5 years now. It's called the DEW-98. I'm sickened by what appears to be going on at Ford and Lincoln-Mercury. The new Ford/Mercury vans are pathetic. I said that the first time I saw a Monterey last October. They can't give em away. The Marauder was a great idea. But then they built a car that is beaten 0-60 and 1/4 mile by a stock Honda Accord. They've had 5 years now to do SOMETHING with the LS. What'd they do? removed the manual tranny and made lower body mouldings an option called the "LSE". In the meantime, Cadillac has come up with one of the best sports sedans ever - the CTS V. Chrysler has the 300 and Dodge Magnum and the Crossfire and ...
Lincoln makes a new SUV by reducing the design drawings for their big SUV. Comes up with the Aviator. A very nice vehicle. Then within a year of launch, they begin presenting a totally different vehicle as the next Aviator.
I won't even mention the Blackwood. But now they're building another pick-up truck. What is it? An F-150 with a Lincoln grille. They didn't even change the interior. Is it groundbreaking in any way? NO. Meanwhile, Cadillac has their version of the Chevy Avalanche, and it looks much better. Beautiful in pearl. And of course, they're switching to RWD. And then theres that wonderful comvertible based on the Corvette. When's the last time Lincoln built a convertible?
All this said, I have an 04 Navigator and love it so far. I have an 01 LS and love it too. BUT, Ford is on my fecal roster for the way they have handled a service issue. Did u know that if your HVAC in your Ford vehicle begins blowing 110 degree air from the center vents and 68 degree air from the demist/defrost - which can clearly be felt on your face - that it's NORMAL? And once the regional engineer says it's normal, your only alternative is a lawyer. I can not in good conscience recommend a Ford vehicle anymore. And check my posting history if u think I'm a Ford basher. Quite the opposite has been true.$100,000 worth of Lincoln vehicles over the past 7 or so years and they treat me like an idiot in service and at the regional level. When's the last time your vehicle blew cold air on your face while the heater was running? Normal? Maybe for a '63 Yugo.
DEW98 will be kept solely for Jag use.
Caddy is going upmarket, Lincoln isn't nor does it need to compete with them. That's what Jaguar/LR and AM are for.
Mark LT, based on the F-150 which itself is a great vehicle. YES they can go up and just put a grille on to make it a Lincoln. IF Caddy can do it, Lincoln can. And unlike the Avalache/Escalade, it'll actually have interior materials fit to be in the luxury class.
Yes get a lawyer I agree it's not normal.
You've been very informative about Ford etc, so thanks for that. BUT:
Who the h*ll is Lincoln going to compete with if not Cadillac? This is ridiculous. Lincoln had Caddy in their rear view mirror as recently as 2001. Now the tables have more than turned. Sorry, but Jaguar does NOT compete with Cadillac for the simple reason it's priced about 20% or more higher. So is Lincoln then going to compete against, what, Honda? Cause Acura is in Caddys league. Toyota? Not Lexus for sure. Mazda? Ooops - Lincoln now IS a Mazda. Thanks a lot, Daryl Hazel. Great job.
And, if Lincoln is moving downmarkrt, I guess Mercury is targeting Kia?
As for a lawyer, I, like most people, can't afford one. Ford of course knows this. In fact, the wonderful customer relations rep at the Lincoln Committment Center said, when I asked if Ford would rather I get a lawyer than for them to fix a simple problem, she said "Go ahead. I don't care. I hear this all the time."
SO there you have it folks. The Lincoln Committment. Consider this before u buy a Ford prodeuct. Once they have your money - they treat you like an idiot. Hey, maybe they figure you are cause you bought their product in the first place.
I really hate to be posting like this, cause my LS and Nav and Mark 8 bfore them really are great vehicles. But I don't care how good the vehicle is if the company is going to treat me like a fool to save a few $$$s. And here I am, 3 Lincolns in a row and I'm not even into my Lincoln buying years. Well, Ford, you've alienated this Lincoln buyer probably for good. Just as well I guess since a Lincoln won't be a Lincoln anymore. Just a Mazda with leather seats standard instead of optional. Pathetic. I'm tired of beating the drum for American manufacturers. They can all go to shareholder h*ll as far as I'm concerned now.
And because Caddilac is leaving this segment, they are placing Bucik up against it. Therefore, Buick is being rejuvinated to reflect that price level. And Ford has mentioned this publically, as in...Lincoln staying where it's at...it doesn't need to chase Caddy upwards. Notice how some of the new vehicles are being priced higher.
Who might be Lincolns competition... Would be luxury segments between $30K to $60K. You have Acura, Volvo (not against, but with), Infiniti, Lexus (although Toyota has mentioned they want to go up with a larger super-sedan), Buick, Saab, to name a few off the top of my head.
Traditionally, the luxury car segment is vehicles that are priced over $40K. And Lincoln sells 92% in that price class, much more than any other manufacturer. Although keep in mind, many like Acura, MB, BMW, sell many more vehicles under $40K. Interesting tidbit I learned.
Mercury is just a Ford clone with more Chrome. Tradtionally it's best sales have been just that...when they have been re-grilled Fords... Granted, I would have love to see Mercury become something different. But investment wise, it's not feasable at this time.
Recognizing first of all, that I vote with my wallet, as do we all ultimately - I will have the last word, and my revenge. Example: I have been a Town Car fan for years. That is, up to 1998, when the new design came out. I noticed when they redid - (undid, IMO) the interior of the Town Car, they forgot to include a blower for the A/C. It has the most anemic excuse for a blower I've ever seen! The HVAC gal/guy for this car must have been from Sweden or something, because a normal strength in a Ford product, is a very healthy hurricane blower. This one is not only weak, but still noisy as well! In the two climates where I have a home, this will just not do.
So, the Town Car has been off my list of potential sedans now for a while. I hear they know this is an issue, but the fix isn't cheap, and they will likely address it in the next makeover. If they do, it may get another look. Meanwhile, I check from time to time to see if they have this problem still. They do. I always check out the HVAC first in any prospective car I'm going to buy. Your problem would be hard to spot without a thorough test drive, but that's another reason I'm in Lincolns, my dealer lets me take cars home overnight until I find the one I want, so I can spot some potential design issues that I'm not going to be ok with. Meanwhile, this Navigator has the best and coldest A/C I think I've ever had, and I love it. It's my "hot" button, if you know what I mean. No point at getting steamed at headquarters, because Mercedes is the same, as is Toyota, as is GM. Frankly, Ford has been the most responsive to my complaints over the years, pathetic as they are......
The best way to make your point, is not to buy next time, if the problem persists. Some design flaws however, just can't be fixed. Hence, when they say, "it's normal", that translates to me as "we have no friggin clue how to fix this"........
In most systems (to defeat it)...Just turn the A/C temp to the colest setting (usually 60 degrees) and just alter the blower speed. What this does is blow VERY cold air, but keep blowing.
One friends Saturn L300, this is quite evident. When it reaches it's set Auto Temp, it'll mix heated air, into cooling air, to keep it at 75 degrees, BUT keep the blower at the same speed. SO when I need a quick cool-down, I turn it to 60, take it off the "Auto" mode, and just alter the blower speed. Yes I find it annoying to do as well... You would think "automoatic" ment just that.
Also, there's numerous systems where on it's highest blower speed, it's not shooting out the coldest air, and you be better off placing it on the 2nd fastest blower setting, than full all-out speed.
Many who had Ford's in the late 90's might notice that, Place it on MAX A/C (recirculates, saves gas, cools faster) and maybe speed 3 (out of 4) and it'll cool a bit quicker.
As for complains, write a letter to customer service...CC: to All those your able to, and describe WHY you have chosen another brand/make, over a particular one. This helps them have an idea what needs to be improved. I think it's a positive way to vent...I've been "venting" with VW/Audi for years, they still haven't improved their quality/reliability...OK sometimes no one is listening.... :-)
Now, the Town Car just has no air volume. It's the only Ford product I've even seen with this problem. One of the main reasons I like Fords is the factory air is second to none usually. But not in the T/C. Hell, even the Volvo has great air, and they don't even know why in Sweden where they're made!!
Volvo's A/C systems have improved.. GEE wonder why heh...MB/BMW still lag in the industry.
TC does have a subpar A/C system. The Explorer as well (trick is, gotta keep it accelerating on the Explorer). Actually those are just the 2 offender's I complain about.
I always stick to black only because if someone scratches the paint off your bumper, the only thing that will be under, will be black...hence, it'll show less. And for interior, grey... because it hinds dirt the best.
ANT: Your market division eplanation makes a little more sense. But I remain unconvinced that anyone at L-M has much of a clue what they're doing. Briefly: Lincoln needs one or 2 cars to complement the LS and TC. Define the brand better. Yet, all I've heard about is the MAZDA-based Zephyr. And that maybe the LS won't be back in '06. Some rumblings about a new Continental but nothing definite. The one vehicle they should build to create brand 'gravitas' is the Mark X convertible, but Lincoln themselves said no way they'd build it about 2 days after it was first shown. In fact, I think they said they didn't like it.
Mercury being 'Ford with chrome' has not always been true. (In fact today, except for taillights, there ain't much diff between Taurus and Sable at all.) They can and have diff'd the Ford-Merc quite well. Take the 60s and 70's Mustand/Cougar. Same platform. Very different personalties. Look at the, eg, '65 Merc compared to '65 Ford and '65 Lincoln. The Mercury is clearly more related to the Lincoln. It can be and should be done. What's the point of the Sable? OK nuff of this.
Last, the discussion about HVAC above is pretty interesting. ANT's description of the way it works is accurate. I've got the maintenance CD for the LS now and have been looking at the HVAC system description. And I can identify with 90% or greater certainty what's causing my problem. Basically, there are 5 blend doors. One is called the cold air bypass door IIRC. It allows A/C air to bypass the heating element ANT mentions and go DIRECTLY to the demist/defrost, which is exactly what I'm seeing. So, either this door opens too much on mine, or at the wrong time - calibrated wrong or I just need to get the darn thing to stay closed. (And whose bright idea was it to bypass the heating for demist/defrost anyway?) I know it can work right, my Nav and Mark 8 before it proves they can do it right.
I would caulk the sucker, but might lead to other issues. Next up, remove the heater core element altogether. (This in FL might be workable).. Although you won't have a heater in the winter (not something we worry about down here).
Next LS and TC will be AWD Volvo P2 platform based. The TC itself will be a vast improvement since it'll go on a unibody platform, and get rid of the Body On Frame contruction, ditch the 4 speed auto, and bring in a fresh air of modern sophistication badly needed....
Ford is consolidating platform's, but in a few years, they'll be very few platform architectures, than can be increase/lengthened/widened to serve numerous purpose.
Almsot any platform can be altered, but MOST will require hefty weight gains... With Ford's plans, it's quite minimal. We have already seen what C1 (S40, Mazda3, Focus(Euro), C-Max) can do. Next up, Volvo's P2 and a few other vehicles from that plaform, and CD3 (Mazda6 based). Each of those are quite flexible to turn them into pretty much anything.
Plus while some other vehicles/platforms might not sell well here (because most american's prefer larger sized cars), they might be selling well overseas... Mazda MPV as a good example.
Navi is possible because of the Expedition. YET as a first venture, they were somewhat similar when the initial Navi debuted. Seeing it's success, Ford has been able to differentiate it a bit more from it's Expy cousin. And sharing platforms makes that possible.