Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

jmonroe1

corvette said:

@tjc78 - nice, I think you'll enjoy having the convenience of L2 charging at home. Mine's getting installed Wednesday!

————————————————
What happened? Did you forget how to unravel wire?

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

suydam said:

Well, we had one kid who totaled his car after 3 weeks. Fortunately no one was hurt. Just inexperience. It was a VERY used Buick of some sort. It would have hurt a lot more if it was a new car!

My son who is also on the spectrum (along with several other emotional disorders) banged into the nun’s parked van as we circled around the convent parking lot. Fortunately, their body shop was also mine and the owner had a chuckle when I paid him for both vehicles.

stickguy

should be little difference between driving a used Camry and a new Corolla. Just less worry if the used one is pre-patinaed !

explorerx4

@stickguy,
Size is a difference. Not sure about crash ratings.

stickguy

6" in length and a couple in width shouldn't change the dynamic much.

ab348

A new Corolla is a pretty awful car generally.

jmonroe1

tjc78 said:

So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1

Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

————————————————
OK, since you asked.

Using #6 wire is fine but I would use a breaker sized per the max current draw indicated by the charger manufacturer. For a level 2 home charger that is probably 40 AMPS. Since this is a charger dedicated circuit it’s best to size the breaker for the max recommended load NOT the max current carrying capacity of the wire.

Your objective is to protect the dedicated devise not the wire (you’re fine with oversized wire and I would have done that too). Plus, you’d have saved a buck or two doing it my way. Again, you asked.

jmonroe

benjaminh

ab348 said:

A new Corolla is a pretty awful car generally.

I'm going to try to cautiously disagree with that. At the starting price in the US of c. $24k the Corolla is probably the best car on the market at that price. Toyota's engines are impressive. Even Corolla's have both port and direct injection, which is more expensive, and something not found on any other car outside of Toyota at that price. Corolla's now have peppy and efficient engines that have unparalleled reliability and longevity. On average I don't think even Honda's last as long.

The design of the body is also rare at this point in that there's impressive rear visibility in a Corolla, and better than found in a Civic or the small Korean cars or the Mazda3.

Inside they are plain, but all the materials are solid and long-lasting. Their touchscreen system for maps and so on is intuitive.

A Toyota is a car I'd feel confident about buying without an extended warranty, and I don't even feel that way about Hondas any more.

The Corolla hybrid is also a great value at $26k, although by the time you get to that price I'd spend 4k more to get the Camry LE, which is a step up in size, comfort, quality, safety, and power.

A problem with Toyotas is that they are so popular they can't keep up with demand, and so prices are high. Even a Corolla is in a sense a premium vehicle when it comes to quality and longevity, and so it commands a higher price than, say, a loaded up Hyundai Elantra.

corvette

Looking at the Corolla, one weird thing about it is that it offers AWD on the LE hybrid model.

au1994

jmonroe1 said:

tjc78 said:

So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1

Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

————————————————
OK, since you asked.

Using #6 wire is fine but I would use a breaker sized per the max current draw indicated by the charger manufacturer. For a level 2 home charger that is probably 40 AMPS. Since this is a charger dedicated circuit it’s best to size the breaker for the max recommended load NOT the max current carrying capacity of the wire.

Your objective is to protect the dedicated devise not the wire (you’re fine with oversized wire and I would have done that too). Plus, you’d have saved a buck or two doing it my way. Again, you asked.

jmonroe

And all that expertise you just spouted is why I am perfectly fine paying for it.

explorerx4

@benjaminh,
The Corolla engine makes 139 HP.
Toyota's turbo engines are total underperformers, power and fuel mileage, and have lots of other problems.

benjaminh

The standard Corolla engine was upgraded a year or so ago to the 2.0 liter dynamic force engine, which has 169 horsepower. It's referenced at about 4:30 in this review. It's not quick, but neither is the standard Civic LX 2.0. Starting at 17:50 this reviewer merges onto a freeway and gets up to 75+.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCDvnVbH5GE&t=952s

jmonroe1

au1994 said:

jmonroe1 said:

tjc78 said:

So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1

Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

————————————————
OK, since you asked.

Using #6 wire is fine but I would use a breaker sized per the max current draw indicated by the charger manufacturer. For a level 2 home charger that is probably 40 AMPS. Since this is a charger dedicated circuit it’s best to size the breaker for the max recommended load NOT the max current carrying capacity of the wire.

Your objective is to protect the dedicated devise not the wire (you’re fine with oversized wire and I would have done that too). Plus, you’d have saved a buck or two doing it my way. Again, you asked.

jmonroe

And all that expertise you just spouted is why I am perfectly fine paying for it.

————————————————-
That’s just it, you don’t have to pay for it. I just gave it to you free of charge.

jmonroe

corvette

au1994 said:

And all that expertise you just spouted is why I am perfectly fine paying for it.

I understand the wire gauge and other technical stuff. What I don't have expertise in is finding a stud (through the Hardieplank and sheathing) to mount the charger to, drilling the appropriate holes in the correct places so as not to ruin the siding I paid a pretty penny for a few years ago, etc... Fortunately, I only need about five feet of wire run from the panel to the charger, so I don't have to make any difficult decisions about reducing the amperage to use smaller and cheaper wire.

suydam

Lots of people love Corollas and I'm sure they are sturdy and reliable. Great for a kid. For me they seem very plain and cheap inside compared with the Camry.

stickguy

not everyone wants a bigger car though. Some still like what passes for a compact these days! and of course, budget can be an issue.

roadburner

I could live with a Corolla GR, but sentence me to drive any other version and I'd start checking my pockets for a cyanide capsule.
But that's just me.

benjaminh

A comparison from Toyota's site with the base Civic LX and Elantra. MSRP of the Corolla LE is almost $2k less than the Civic LX. The Corolla also has wireless AndroidAuto/CarPlay, which the Civic doesn't have on the LX, and only is standard on the Touring. I personally listen to SiriusXM a lot in my cars, and I like that the Corolla has satellite radio standard, which isn't on the Civic until the top-of-the-line Touring, or maybe it's not even available at all any more? New Toyotas now also include the first two years of maintenance.

https://www.toyota.com/corolla/2025/compare/summary/1513722025/



From an earlier Toyota press release...

"The most popular Corolla Sedan grade, the 2023 LE gains the 169-horsepower 2.0L Dynamic Force four-cylinder engine used in all other Corolla gas models. Replacing a 139-hp 1.8L engine, the 2.0L offers much more dynamic performance, with 0-60 two seconds quicker. The 2.0L engine also delivers a boost of 25 lb-ft. of torque over the previous 1.8L, now 151 lb-ft. Yet, this more powerful engine is also more efficient, improving on fuel economy ratings, with 32 city/41 hwy/35 EPA combined MPG in the LE model vs. 30/38/33 for the 2022 version with the 1.8L engine."

https://pressroom.toyota.com/2023-toyota-corolla-sedan-revs-up-power-safety-tech-and-value/

tjc78

jmonroe1 said:

tjc78 said:

So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1

Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

————————————————
OK, since you asked.

Using #6 wire is fine but I would use a breaker sized per the max current draw indicated by the charger manufacturer. For a level 2 home charger that is probably 40 AMPS. Since this is a charger dedicated circuit it’s best to size the breaker for the max recommended load NOT the max current carrying capacity of the wire.

Your objective is to protect the dedicated devise not the wire (you’re fine with oversized wire and I would have done that too). Plus, you’d have saved a buck or two doing it my way. Again, you asked.

jmonroe

I thought about that, but the charger is actually capable of a max of 48 amps. I dialed it down because I didn’t think it was necessary to pull that much amperage.

At 32 it charged my car from 37 to 80% in 6 hours.

graphicguy

benjaminh said:

Today's purchase. With 0.9% financing and c.7k down we have monthly payments for three years of $834. Total interest charges for the 3 year loan will be about $420. My spouse is happy about it.

She's a BEAUT! RED!!!!!!! 'Grats on the new car.

graphicguy

jmonroe1 said:

graphicguy said:

nyccarguy said:

@corvette said:
@nyccarguy - most of the SEs did not have BSM, IIRC. Maybe also consider the 2020-ish Accord Hybrid if it's in the same price range, I rode in one of those as an Uber and really preferred it to the Camry

I’ll check it out, but Accords are expensive. I think a 2020ish hybrid Accord would be way out of my price range.

Had this same conversation with my son earlier this week. He has a GTI that's topped 100K miles and things are starting to go wrong. He's got a nasty stumble when accelerating. I helped him replace the plugs, the coil packs (which are a real PITA). We ran some Techron through the fuel system a couple of times.

Took it to VW. Spent $500 for diagnosis and some sort of reprogram of the ECU, which didn't help.

It's starting to use and leak a little oil. It needs brakes. He just put his 2nd set of tires on it. All minor stuff. Some is just routine maintenance, but irritating to him.

He wanted an Accord 2.0T (he really liked that drivetrain in my former TLX). Now, that they don't make them anymore, they are tough to find on the used market and are selling not that far off what they sold for new. For that money, I told him to look for used TLXs, but even there, they are holding value, too. Interesting, given Acura isn't going to make them anymore.

He's caught between dumping some serious money into the GTI in the hopes that takes care of it for a while, or going new (GTI, GLI, Integra), or keep looking for a used Accord 2.0 at a reasonable price.

HE looked at a new Accord. Actually, he found they are giving some decent discounts....about $2K off the Touring model (which is still high $30s). Told him if he's going that direction, look at a Camry, too. But, for some reason, Toyota is still restricting supply around these parts. Don't know why given they are made just a few hours down the road from us in KY. The local Toyota does have 4-Runners out the wazoo, though....all lined up in just about every color.

————————————————
Are you saying they charged you 500 bucks for a diagnosis and still couldn’t fix the problem. That would piss me off for sure.

A stumbling problem upon acceleration, especially when stopped, reeks of a mass air flow sensor problem. I’d try that before throwing more parts at it.

Let us know what actually fixed it.

jmonroe

He had some other things done.... air filters? I told him that was something that he (we) could have done, take a couple of minutes and save him some Benjamins. He thought I was criticizing him. I wasn't (well, maybe a little)!

I agree about the MAS. It's National Son's Day. So, I'll take him to Brunch and we'll "conversate" about it.

nyccarguy

@benjaminh said:
A comparison from Toyota's site with the base Civic LX and Elantra. MSRP of the Corolla LE is almost $2k less than the Civic LX. The Corolla also has wireless AndroidAuto/CarPlay, which the Civic doesn't have on the LX, and only is standard on the Touring. I personally listen to SiriusXM a lot in my cars, and I like that the Corolla has satellite radio standard, which isn't on the Civic until the top-of-the-line Touring, or maybe it's not even available at all any more? New Toyotas now also include the first two years of maintenance.

https://www.toyota.com/corolla/2025/compare/summary/1513722025/

From an earlier Toyota press release...

"The most popular Corolla Sedan grade, the 2023 LE gains the 169-horsepower 2.0L Dynamic Force four-cylinder engine used in all other Corolla gas models. Replacing a 139-hp 1.8L engine, the 2.0L offers much more dynamic performance, with 0-60 two seconds quicker. The 2.0L engine also delivers a boost of 25 lb-ft. of torque over the previous 1.8L, now 151 lb-ft. Yet, this more powerful engine is also more efficient, improving on fuel economy ratings, with 32 city/41 hwy/35 EPA combined MPG in the LE model vs. 30/38/33 for the 2022 version with the 1.8L engine."

https://pressroom.toyota.com/2023-toyota-corolla-sedan-revs-up-power-safety-tech-and-value/

I didn’t know that about the engine change from the 1.8 to the 2.0. The slippery slope comes when you compare the Gas to the Hybrid model. It’s $1,850 more for the Hybrid. In addition to superior gas mileage you get a multi-link rear suspension, and won’t have to put brakes on the car for 120K miles. I think I mentioned this earlier, but now all Corollas have BSM standard.

benjaminh

Is blind-spot monitoring standard on the Corolla now? I thought on the LE you needed to get an option package for that, but maybe that's changed.

Well @nyccarguy , if you can guess how much this car will be driven, you can calculate the payback time for getting the hybrid.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbsSelect

The standard Corolla already gets such high mpg that my guess is that unless this car will be driven more than 15k a year it might take a while for the hybrid to pay for itself.

qbrozen

@tjc78 said:
So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1
Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

Excuse me, sir, but I have a question:
Why do some of your breakers have white wires attached?

roadburner

benjaminh said:

Today's purchase. With 0.9% financing and c.7k down we have monthly payments for three years of $834. Total interest charges for the 3 year loan will be about $420. My spouse is happy about it.

Very nice! I love the color.

explorerx4

@benjaminh,
Cngrats and agree with other about the color.

benjaminh

As @nyccarguy said...

"Blind Spot Monitor w/ Rear Cross-Traffic Alert is Now Standard Across All Grades."

https://pressroom.toyota.com/bold-and-compact-the-2026-toyota-corolla-offers-impressive-features-and-technology/

That's one of the least expensive cars with that. Even on my wife's new 2025 Outback Premium we had to get an option package to get blind spot monitoring and rear cross-traffic alert.


Yes, my wife and I do like that red on the Outback, which Subaru calls Crimson Pearl.

On most other cars red costs an extra 400, 600, 800 or more, but if you want a red Outback Subaru still throws it in without an extra charge.

corvette

tjc78 said:

I thought about that, but the charger is actually capable of a max of 48 amps. I dialed it down because I didn’t think it was necessary to pull that much amperage.

At 32 it charged my car from 37 to 80% in 6 hours.

I also got a charger capable of providing 48 amps on a 60 amp breaker. Since it's a short wire run, I'm going with the full 60 amps. The Ariya is only capable of pulling about 30 amps, so I should have a good margin of safety there. I'd probably check the connections with an infrared thermometer if I were regularly pulling 48 amps.

jmonroe1

tjc78 said:

jmonroe1 said:

tjc78 said:

So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1

Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

————————————————
OK, since you asked.

Using #6 wire is fine but I would use a breaker sized per the max current draw indicated by the charger manufacturer. For a level 2 home charger that is probably 40 AMPS. Since this is a charger dedicated circuit it’s best to size the breaker for the max recommended load NOT the max current carrying capacity of the wire.

Your objective is to protect the dedicated devise not the wire (you’re fine with oversized wire and I would have done that too). Plus, you’d have saved a buck or two doing it my way. Again, you asked.

jmonroe

I thought about that, but the charger is actually capable of a max of 48 amps. I dialed it down because I didn’t think it was necessary to pull that much amperage.

At 32 it charged my car from 37 to 80% in 6 hours.

————————————————-
If your charger is capable of delivering 48 AMPS, the manufacturer will probably tell you to use a 50 AMP breaker. Again, size the breaker and wire per the manufacturers instructions. Note, even if you choose to charge at 32 AMPS, you should still size the breaker and wire per the manufacturers instructions. Doing it that way you have the capacity to charge at the maximum rate should you decide to charge at a higher rate at some point later on without having to rewire/breaker later.

jmonroe

corvette

A 50 amp breaker will support a 40 amp charger. This is due to the 80% rule for continuous loads in the National Electric Code.

jmonroe1

qbrozen said:

@tjc78 said:

So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1

Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

Excuse me, sir, but I have a question:

Why do some of your breakers have white wires attached?

————————————————
If it’s a 220 Volt circuit breaker you WILL have a white wire on a breaker. Having said that, 1 breaker doesn’t appear to be a 220 Volt breaker but that panel is a wiring mess so it’s hard to say what is going on. I know one thing, the first day I ever wired a panel it looked a hellava lot better than that one.

You should never have the outer jacket of a romex cable that far into the panel. That wouldn’t pass an electrical inspection in my hood. I was always taught if it’s not neat it’s not right.

jmonroe

tjc78

@qbrozen said:

@tjc78 said:
So .. I did a thing!

@jmonroe1
Go ahead and critique me!

I’m upset when I was pushing the box in I nicked the upper left a bit and the plate didn’t cover. Oh well it’s a garage.

2 hrs and 45 mins and that included taking the charger apart to change the amperage (I went low at 32 even though I installed 6 gauge with a 50amp)

Lack of pics because I was sweating and didn’t want to get my phone all dirty lol

Excuse me, sir, but I have a question:
Why do some of your breakers have white wires attached?

Ground fault breakers have a neutral that goes to the buss and then the load side neutral goes on the breaker.

The put all the GFCI breakers near the middle of the panel by the buss bars and it was all jammed up there.

Quite honestly for a 5 year old house I thought the panel wasn’t done that nicely.

stickguy

this discussion has confirmed that I will never mess with electrical when it gets into wiring, or touching the box beyond turning off a breaker. Not worth the risk or consequences of doing it wrong.

I am fine with replacing a fixture and I do have some ceiling fans to install, but they are replacing existing fixtures using the same wiring.

ab348

It is one of many things that I have never been able to grasp.

I remember reading something years ago that touching a white neutral wire can’t hurt you. I refused to believe that.

tjc78

@jmonroe1 said:
————————————————-
If your charger is capable of delivering 48 AMPS, the manufacturer will probably tell you to use a 50 AMP breaker. Again, size the breaker and wire per the manufacturers instructions. Note, even if you choose to charge at 32 AMPS, you should still size the breaker and wire per the manufacturers instructions. Doing it that way you have the capacity to charge at the maximum rate should you decide to charge at a higher rate at some point later on without having to rewire/breaker later.

jmonroe

Which is what I did, 50 amp breaker on a 6 wire.

As I said before I do agree with your statement, the panel is not great. I don’t understand why they bunched all the GFCI breakers with the pigtails all in one spot. I would have moved them up higher and routed the wires neatly along the side.

tjc78

@ab348 said:
It is one of many things that I have never been able to grasp.

I remember reading something years ago that touching a white neutral wire can’t hurt you. I refused to believe that.

If you are only touching one wire you are fine, hot or neutral provided you aren’t touching a metal pipe or something.

Touching the neutral is the same as touching a grounded metal switch plate. They go to the same place in the panel.

jmonroe1

ab348 said:

It is one of many things that I have never been able to grasp.

I remember reading something years ago that touching a white neutral wire can’t hurt you. I refused to believe that.

————————————————
On a 120 volt circuit that’s true as long as the neutral is grounded BUT if you come across a circuit with an open neutral (meaning the neutral has somehow been disconnected from ground) the white wire will attack you just like the black hot wire.

Here’s one for you, you can touch the black wire all day long as long as you don’t touch the white wire and/or ground at the same time with any part of your body. Try it and you’ll see I’m right.

jmonroe

ab348

I think I retain too many memories from when I was a kid of my dad, an ex-Navy man, who believed he could fix anything based upon his experience serving on ships. He could do a lot of things, but there were lots of mishaps along the way. Lots of shocks and sparks, though my favorite was when I was very little, around 5 or 6, when he tried to light the pilot on a gas stove. Mom was nervous enough to evacuate herself and me outside, and was proven correct when we heard a “whoosh” sound followed by him stumbling out the door rubbing his arm, which had all the hair scorched off it from the flash flame. But the stove worked after.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

Excuse me, sir, but I have a question:

Why do some of your breakers have white wires attached?

AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupt). It's a new-house thing (though I think it was in the... 2010 residential code?). I see the point of it, but man, those things can nuisance trip so much, and after your breaker trips a several dozen times, it just gets more and more prone to tripping, so then you have to replace it. So annoying.

corvette

@xwesx - I hear that some people replace them with standard breakers, for that reason. That might have happened with my aunt and uncle after they lost a freezer worth of beef when an AFCI nuisance tripped.

Michaell

corvette said:

@xwesx - I hear that some people replace them with standard breakers, for that reason. That might have happened with my aunt and uncle after they lost a freezer worth of beef when an AFCI nuisance tripped.

I think we were having that problem in the house we are currently living in. Bathroom outlet would trip almost daily. Had an electrician out and I think he replaced the breaker.

Problem solved.

jmonroe1

corvette said:

@xwesx - I hear that some people replace them with standard breakers, for that reason. That might have happened with my aunt and uncle after they lost a freezer worth of beef when an AFCI nuisance tripped.

————————————————
GFCI’s and AFCI’s and the combo GFCI/AFCI should not be used in circuits powering refrigerators and freezers because they are prone to tripping with the least electrical disturbance. In fact it’s a code violation to use them in these circuits in some locals.

What we have here regarding the use of these temperamental gizmos is a classic case of electrical manufacturers driving electrical codes. Technology exists today that can detect the least fault and because of the one in one hundred million times a problem occurred the codes decided that was too much when a device exists that could have prevented it. So, the industry is now saddled with living with these super sensitive devices.

AFCI’s are the worst. They detect the least bit of unacceptable sparking and shut the circuit down. On the surface that sounds good because sparks are known to cause fires. But electrical devices have been sparking since the day they were invented. A few years ago I was using one of my old reliable 120 volt drills because the battery drill just didn’t have enough power for the job. The job was running down the batteries almost as soon as I replaced them. That’s why I decided to use the 120 volt drill. As soon as it had to work a little harder than usual the brushes in the motor.started arching a little more than usual and the circuit tripped. After this happened a few times I replaced the AFCI with a standard breaker. Wala, no more trips. The problem is, the code requires these gizmos for new builds and when circuits are added when remodeling. So, we have to comply when we do our house flipping. One electrical inspector I got to know pretty well told me he despises AFCI’s so much that he’d like to ignore the absence of them when he inspects jobs but he can’t do that because someone is bound to turn him in. But, he said exactly what I was thinking and that was, “I can’t stop you from replacing them with standard breakers after I’ve put my stamp on the panel and left”. So there’s that.

jmonroe

benjaminh

Comparison in gas costs for a Corolla hybrid, a regular Corolla and a Camry LE hybrid. The gas cost I put in was 3.50 a gallon, which is higher than in KY. Anyway, driving around 10,000 miles a year it looks like it might take eight or nine years for a hybrid Corolla to pay for itself. It's interesting that the Camry gets better mpg than the Corolla hybrid.

graphicguy

stickguy said:

this discussion has confirmed that I will never mess with electrical when it gets into wiring, or touching the box beyond turning off a breaker. Not worth the risk or consequences of doing it wrong.

I am fine with replacing a fixture and I do have some ceiling fans to install, but they are replacing existing fixtures using the same wiring.

Which is why you turn off the electricity to your home as you're doing the install. Just like turning off the water when you're doing plumbing.

qbrozen

Ok, I didn’t see at first the bottom one here is a 220. But I still have questions. I thought the red on a 4-wire 220 setup is the other hot. Making a white hot when you expect it to be neutral is disturbing to me. Am I wrong?
And then on a couple up top, I see one black and 2 white on a couple of breakers. How/why? Are those not hot? Is that how the neutral feeds back on a GFI? I don’t think I’ve ever seeen such a thing. I’m NOT an electrician, FYI.

jmonroe1

graphicguy said:

stickguy said:

this discussion has confirmed that I will never mess with electrical when it gets into wiring, or touching the box beyond turning off a breaker. Not worth the risk or consequences of doing it wrong.

I am fine with replacing a fixture and I do have some ceiling fans to install, but they are replacing existing fixtures using the same wiring.

Which is why you turn off the electricity to your home as you're doing the install. Just like turning off the water when you're doing plumbing.

————————————————-
Yep. Kinda a no brainer to me.

Speaking of plumbing, I can do that too but electrical is sooo much easier but the everyday homeowner doesn’t believe that. For some reason they think electrons are like something from outer space, just waiting to jump out of switches/receptacles and attack them. Water under pressure will cause far more problems to your home when it leaks than a breaker that trips.

Not that plumbers are cheap when you have to hire them but homeowner’s are far more likely to pay electricians what they want without complaining because there are gremlins hidden in the wires of their homes.

jmonroe

tjc78

qbrozen said:

Ok, I didn’t see at first the bottom one here is a 220. But I still have questions. I thought the red on a 4-wire 220 setup is the other hot. Making a white hot when you expect it to be neutral is disturbing to me. Am I wrong?

And then on a couple up top, I see one black and 2 white on a couple of breakers. How/why? Are those not hot? Is that how the neutral feeds back on a GFI? I don’t think I’ve ever seeen such a thing. I’m NOT an electrician, FYI.

The 40AMP breaker is the AC unit. The AC unit only requires 2 hots and a ground, so they use the white as a hot. They should have phase identified this with a piece of black tape (again, I'm not happy at all with my panel and if I was there when they built this home I wouldn't have accepted this).

The GFCI breakers are unique. They have a neutral pig tail that goes to the bus bar and a terminal on the breaker for the load heading out of the panel. The reason for this is the circuitry in a GFCI has to monitor the current going through the hot and neutral.

jmonroe1

qbrozen said:

Ok, I didn’t see at first the bottom one here is a 220. But I still have questions. I thought the red on a 4-wire 220 setup is the other hot. Making a white hot when you expect it to be neutral is disturbing to me. Am I wrong?

And then on a couple up top, I see one black and 2 white on a couple of breakers. How/why? Are those not hot? Is that how the neutral feeds back on a GFI? I don’t think I’ve ever seeen such a thing. I’m NOT an electrician, FYI.

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Let me try to answer this.

You are correct in saying when a 4-wire cable is used the black and red should be the hot wires for a 220 volt circuit. However, I don’t see where a white wire from a 4-wire cable is connected to a breaker in your panel per any of the circled areas. If you’re referring to the white wire connected to a breaker per the lowest circled area, that is a white wire of a 220 volt circuit and since it’s connected to a 2-pole breaker I’m going to guess that breaker is for an AC unit. However, the wires (black and white) connected to that breaker don’t appear to be large enough for the 40 amp breaker. That’s not good and as I’ve said before a breaker should be sized for either its dedicated load or for the maximum current carrying capacity of the wire.

Now let’s move to the center circled area. This looks like a 20 amp GFCI breaker although I can’t see a test button. One of the white wires comes out of this GFCI breaker and should be going to the ground buss and the other white should be the neutral load wire for that circuit. If what I just described is correct, this GFCI breaker is wired correctly.

The top circled area looks just like the center circled area but the top circled area is a 15 amp GFCI.

I hope I explained what you have circled.

EDIT: While I was responding to your post the phone rang and by the time I finished my response @tjc78 also answered your post. We are both saying the same thing except for the wire size on the 40 amp breaker.

jmonroe

carnaught

If anyone uses Jake/State Farm, know that they give you for free a device you simply plug in and tells you the voltage in your home in realtime and it lets you know when anything electric in your house malfunctions. It has a phone app. it connects to and also tells you if the event involves the neighborhood or just your home. It is called Ting and is available for purchase at ~$100, free for State Farm customers. Initially it takes a week to calibrate.

Michaell

@carnaught said:
If anyone uses Jake/State Farm, know that they give you for free a device you simply plug in and tells you the voltage in your home in realtime and it lets you know when anything electric in your house malfunctions. It has a phone app. it connects to and also tells you if the event involves the neighborhood or just your home. It is called Ting and is available for purchase at ~$100, free for State Farm customers. Initially it takes a week to calibrate.

Interesting … and what information is State Farm harvesting in return?