Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

28firefighter

I’m two days a week required (Tuesday/thursday) and then an extra day of my choice every other week. So meant to be 50%.

It’s a great setup. My wife on the other hand works for an employer here who shall remain nameless that is back 5 days a week. She actually loves it.

nyccarguy

As someone who doesn't work in corporate, I can see the benefits of WFH. As long as people are being productive, getting their work done, and are accessible to team members, clients, & management during normal business hours. It shouldn't however mean that the employee is on call. If Tom decides he wants to check and answer some emails while drinking his coffee at 7:30 AM, that great, but his manager shouldn't expect that of him. Nor should his clients.

Commuting just flat out stinks. For me on the way in is quick until I get off the highway. It takes me anywhere from 20-45 minutes to drive the last 3-4 miles. On the way home, sometimes it takes me 30 minutes to drive the 2 miles it takes to get to the highway. If I need to do something in CT (dr appointment, pick up/drop off one of the kids), I need to leave 1 1/2 hours early to make sure I get there on time and don't get caught in traffic.

Not to mention the depreciation as well as wear & tear on my vehicles.

pensfan83

My division is asked to come in three (3) days per week. However, it's not enforced (yet) so some weeks I've had to do less. The weeks I'm traveling I'm onsite at another physical location. My office is Downtown and I actually don't mind going in. My wife's employer is based in a suburban office park and she also goes in 3-4 days/week.

Michaell

I’d love to have these problems.

au1994

tjc78 said:

@qbrozen said:

Luckily, my home office (which isn't even a real office) is about 600 miles away.

My wife's company is forcing 3 days a week for their employees now. Worse, she can't even go to the closest office all 3 days. She does that once (~29 miles one way) and then 2 days at the further office (~43 miles). And those are a very brutal extra 14 miles that adds roughly 30 mins on average.

My issue is, I work for very small company now and 95% of my interaction is with overseas vendors and the remote sales team. The only person I really speak to in the office is the President and so far we have had a 5 min conversation each morning. Otherwise, I am in my office all day just plugging away. My commute is 32 miles each way. 45 in at least an hour home.

I could be much more effective being in my office at home by 6:30 or so and getting some emails answered and returned before China goes to sleep rather than sitting in my car.

That bites. My commute is about 35 minutes. Recently had a Teams meeting where 2 people, VP level mind you and VERY pro office, joined from their offices while the rest of us sat in the conference room. Not a good look for them and I wasn’t amused.

pensfan83

@au1994 how about a company President/EVP sitting 4 floors above us instead of taking the elevator down. I remarked to my boss at the time that it was highly unbecoming for this person to ask us to setup the call then had the temerity to join via Teams instead of joining in person.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

I’m never going back in. This is my last real job that I’ll retire from. Plus our only office is in Dallas and that is a really long commute!

I assume that the lure of WFH is that you don’t have a supervisor looking over your shoulder and you get to dress however you like. I have to go into the office but I have all the same benefits.😁

qbrozen

@tjc78 said:

@qbrozen said:
Luckily, my home office (which isn't even a real office) is about 600 miles away.

My wife's company is forcing 3 days a week for their employees now. Worse, she can't even go to the closest office all 3 days. She does that once (~29 miles one way) and then 2 days at the further office (~43 miles). And those are a very brutal extra 14 miles that adds roughly 30 mins on average.

My issue is, I work for very small company now and 95% of my interaction is with overseas vendors and the remote sales team. The only person I really speak to in the office is the President and so far we have had a 5 min conversation each morning. Otherwise, I am in my office all day just plugging away. My commute is 32 miles each way. 45 in at least an hour home.

I could be much more effective being in my office at home by 6:30 or so and getting some emails answered and returned before China goes to sleep rather than sitting in my car.

That’s the same for my wife. She deals with most people out of country.

cdnpinhead

When I was working ('18 and earlier), I spent quite a lot of my time travelling to the foundries that supplied our long lead time raw material. Much of the time when I was back in AZ, I was dealing with whatever I uncovered during my travels or doing online meetings with others in local sites, or others in Mexico, the Czech Republic or Taiwan. Point being, I had absolutely zero interaction with the people I sat near in Tempe -- it was just where my desk/cubicle was. I may as well have been in Botswana, or, say, Forest Lakes. My bosses and I were perfectly happy with my spending most of my time when I wasn't travelling, in the cabin (decent wi-fi), right up until they were told that it wasn't acceptable.

And here I am. I've managed to survive "retirement" without going feet-first, but I would have been much happier carrying on dealing with the suppliers I've dealt with since the 80s, but it was not to be.

In today's world, in which people are dealing with colleagues all over the world and no one in the same zip code, I can't come to grips with the notion that everyone has to sit in the bullpen for no particular reason.

YMMV

laurasdada

My company has announced that beginning in May, one day a week in the office. Not unexpected, they've been very supportive of WFH since 2020, but recent communications have been hinting at this.
Of course, my office is in Toronto area, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't expect me to roundtrip from Boston to Toronto every week; at least not at my pay grade!
Oh, yeah, retiring April 30, so never mind.

ab348

au1994 said:

That bites. My commute is about 35 minutes. Recently had a Teams meeting where 2 people, VP level mind you and VERY pro office, joined from their offices while the rest of us sat in the conference room. Not a good look for them and I wasn’t amused.

Just so I understand: all involved in the meeting were all in the same building? And the Veeps couldn’t be bothered to leave their offices? Ugh.

It stuck me while reading that how I have never had to do a Teams or Zoom meeting, ever, having retired in 2014. Kind of glad for that. When I was working there were a lot of in-office one on one meetings, usually more informal than formal, hallway conversations and the like, along with just occasional formal meetings with either staff or outsiders. Most of my days were phone calls, emails, and writing.

stickguy

To me, the boss angle is a non-issue. Mine still checks in daily and knows what is going on and if I need something I reach out. Exactly like it would be if we were in the same office together, just via video instead.

The benefit is being much more efficient and less stressful. When I got this job I had another offer (actually a state job) but it would have required going into the office (downtown Albany). And the drive is pretty nasty with congestion, so would have been mentally draining. Plus the $ would add up with wear and tear, gas and parking, on top of the 1+ hour per day commute. The mental aspect being the worst. Not sure I would even still be there after doing that for a while. And my car would have way more than 8,000 miles on it is 22 months!

My sister works for JMonroe's favorite agency and has been FT WFH for quite a while (nasty commute to an office for her). Until next week where she is supposed to be going back in (assuming they found a desk space to assign her to). No functional reason since I don't think she even works with many people in that building, and it is pretty big so people take calls from their desk anyway.

the negative to her employer is a major reduction in work hours. Because like the vast majority of fed employees she works extra time and odd hours to support different groups. That will no longer be happening since time formerly spent working (and having a home office all set up) will now be spent commuting, and the job will be clock in, clock out, work stays in the office.

qbrozen

My boss has been MIA since before the holidays. Well, OK, not missing because I have seen emails from him, but I never meet with him anymore.

I’ve probably said it before, but WFH has been such an advantage for me. Whereas I used to get talked to often for my … hmmm… intolerant? behavior, now my initial reactions to idiots, I mean coworkers, are without viewership. I can compose myself before unmuting. Haha

jmonroe1

laurasdada said:

My company has announced that beginning in May, one day a week in the office. Not unexpected, they've been very supportive of WFH since 2020, but recent communications have been hinting at this.
Of course, my office is in Toronto area, I'm fairly sure they wouldn't expect me to roundtrip from Boston to Toronto every week; at least not at my pay grade!
Oh, yeah, retiring April 30, so never mind.

————————————————
It sounds like you’ve made up your mind so I guess it’s all down hill from here.

jmonroe

qbrozen

This is interesting

https://www.spitzerduboisford.com/inventory/used-2019-ford-edge-st-awd-4-door-suv-2fmpk4ap3kbc38255/

stickguy

love the color. that looks like a nice option. If it tows enough.

corvette

I was also wondering whether the towing capacity was reduced on the ST.

explorerx4

Edge ST seems like it could be a pretty good deal. Great color and highly optioned vehicle.
Original tires replaced at about 19K, so 30K on current tires.
My sister lived in Dubois for many years.
Around mile marker 100 on I-80 in PA.
Wonder why it isn't Ford CPO?
Here is a link to their program.
https://www.ford.com/used/

qbrozen

For a 1-year warranty? I doubt it is worth it.

explorerx4

@qbrozen,
I did try to provide some good info which was not a 1 year additional warranty.

qbrozen

Huh. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong place. Got to the part about CPO and it said 12mo/12k and then something about 7yr total, which would still be 1 yr for a 6-yr-old car. Here it is:

qbrozen

Had another one this morning. Looking at an Fpace on a dealer’s website and they have that “click here for special pricing” or some such language. So I click it and enter my email. I then almost immediately get 3 emails, none of which contain pricing. I replied to one who said something like “what a great car at a great price. When can you come in?” and I wrote something like, “I’m confused. I clicked a button for pricing but have now received 3 emails with no pricing. I’m awaiting an answer to the request.” No reply the rest of the day.

Ya can’t get good help these days.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

Had another one this morning. Looking at an Fpace on a dealer’s website and they have that “click here for special pricing” or some such language. So I click it and enter my email. I then almost immediately get 3 emails, none of which contain pricing. I replied to one who said something like “what a great car at a great price. When can you come in?” and I wrote something like, “I’m confused. I clicked a button for pricing but have now received 3 emails with no pricing. I’m awaiting an answer to the request.” No reply the rest of the day.

Ya can’t get good help these days.

Well, the usual refrain is that a dealer doesn't want to give you a number because then you'll shop it to other dealers. That said, don't put that "Special Pricing!" button on your website if you aren't going to give a number. Personally, I always would quote a price via email or phone- it was easier for all concerned.

roadburner

I have to admit that court hearings on MS Teams were fun; we all were texting each other with a running commentary about the current witness or defendant. For example, I had a revocation hearing on a drug case where the defendant would reply, "I want to go to rehab!!!" to every question. I texted that I was going to refer to her as "Ms. Winehouse" if I had the opportunity. Unfortunately I wasn't able to work it in, though the rest of the defense attorneys were daring me to do it.

28firefighter

I’ve always liked the Edge ST and felt they never quite got their due.

oldfarmer50

qbrozen said:

This is interesting

https://www.spitzerduboisford.com/inventory/used-2019-ford-edge-st-awd-4-door-suv-2fmpk4ap3kbc38255/

I’ve always liked the Edge. Nice ride and roomy without being a big boat. That 2.7L is a good engine, lots of power and I got 30 mpg driving a F-150 with one. My only concern would be those OCIs on the CarFax. It looks like 8k mile averages. Those Ecoboost engines are sensitive to deferred maintenance like most modern turbo motors. Hopefully the previous owner stopped at an indie garage between dealer visits.

oldfarmer50

qbrozen said:

Had another one this morning. Looking at an Fpace on a dealer’s website and they have that “click here for special pricing” or some such language. So I click it and enter my email. I then almost immediately get 3 emails, none of which contain pricing. I replied to one who said something like “what a great car at a great price. When can you come in?” and I wrote something like, “I’m confused. I clicked a button for pricing but have now received 3 emails with no pricing. I’m awaiting an answer to the request.” No reply the rest of the day.

Ya can’t get good help these days.

I learned to never click on a “get a quote” button.

sb55

nyccarguy said:

As someone who doesn't work in corporate, I can see the benefits of WFH. As long as people are being productive, getting their work done, and are accessible to team members, clients, & management during normal business hours. It shouldn't however mean that the employee is on call. If Tom decides he wants to check and answer some emails while drinking his coffee at 7:30 AM, that great, but his manager shouldn't expect that of him. Nor should his clients.

Commuting just flat out stinks. For me on the way in is quick until I get off the highway. It takes me anywhere from 20-45 minutes to drive the last 3-4 miles. On the way home, sometimes it takes me 30 minutes to drive the 2 miles it takes to get to the highway. If I need to do something in CT (dr appointment, pick up/drop off one of the kids), I need to leave 1 1/2 hours early to make sure I get there on time and don't get caught in traffic.

Not to mention the depreciation as well as wear & tear on my vehicles.

In my past life, I also had a killer commute. Somers (Westchester County) to Long Island City, Queens. 55 miles each way and a toll bridge was involved. Because it was manufacturing, I started work at 7:30 and usually left around 4:15. Mornings were pretty consistent at 1:15 minutes, but the home commute was a crap shoot at least 1.5 hours but more like 2:00 hours. I was putting 35K miles/year on my car. I gave it up at age 55. At 70, I still work at our summer business. We now live on an Island on Lake Champlain, but we live 20 miles from Burlington and can get there in 25 minutes without a single stop light until I get off of the exit. I don't miss the commute!

kyfdx

28firefighter said:

I’ve always liked the Edge ST and felt they never quite got their due.

They aren't STs, but my sister-in-law and her husband have two Edge(s). One for each of them.

explorerx4

That Edge ST didn't sell until late September of 2020.

graphicguy

WFH.....spent nearly my entire career WFH. I did travel a lot for work, so having a permanent office somewhere wasn't really a requirement.

It's not for everyone. You do have to be disciplined and can't fall into the trap of getting in late, doing household chores around the house during the workday, running personal errands, etc.

That said, I interfaced with our international offices, too. That meant starting much earlier in the a.m. and leaving late to accommodate. The trade off was having my office 10 feet from my bedroom and my own private bathroom.

I'd say I was probably more productive than those who went to the Mothership (HQ) office every day. I didn't have any interruptions for office gossip, hanging around the coffee machine, people just "dropping by to chat", etc.

sda

The company I work for has different hybrid schedules depending on department and are strict in enforcing compliance. I am in the office 5 days and wfh 5 days. If I miss a day that isn’t scheduled such as paid time off, it is required that day is made up the following week. The week I commute to the office puts 400 miles on the car. Typically an additional 100 miles over the weekend for general running around. A quick 500 on the car.

tjc78

Exchanging some messages on FB marketplace on a 2001 LeSabre and a 2002 Park Avenue.

Terrible pics on the PA can’t tell if it’s the regular 3800 or the supercharged. Would rather have the former on a miled up one.

mrwhipple311

tjc78 said:

Exchanging some messages on FB marketplace on a 2001 LeSabre and a 2002 Park Avenue.

Terrible pics on the PA can’t tell if it’s the regular 3800 or the supercharged. Would rather have the former on a miled up one.

As I recall the SC is the Ultra trim level. Regular PA's are not SC

Also if you go to check one of these out pay very close attention to where the front subframe connects to the body. Rust there is what EOLs these.

corvette

graphicguy said:

You do have to be disciplined and can't fall into the trap of getting in late, doing household chores around the house during the workday, running personal errands, etc.
[...]
I didn't have any interruptions for office gossip, hanging around the coffee machine, people just "dropping by to chat", etc.

That's one of the things I like--the time I would have spent doing those latter things at the office, I can use to throw in a load of laundry or empty the dishwasher. I think, overall, my household and office productivity are better when I WFH.

xwesx

tjc78 said:

It’s a beater!

At my sub 4K budget can’t be too choosy.

I know. I was just thinking about it in terms of the miles and the $3,500 ask for the red LTC that had double the miles (but looked at least twice as good, overall).

xwesx

tjc78 said:

My issue is, I work for very small company now and 95% of my interaction is with overseas vendors and the remote sales team. The only person I really speak to in the office is the President and so far we have had a 5 min conversation each morning. Otherwise, I am in my office all day just plugging away. My commute is 32 miles each way. 45 in at least an hour home.

I could be much more effective being in my office at home by 6:30 or so and getting some emails answered and returned before China goes to sleep rather than sitting in my car.

Well, now that you have some time under your belt at the new place, perhaps you could use that five minute chat with the boss to present that suggestion. You still might need to visit the office on occasion, but if you can offer more productivity with less stress, it seems like a win for everyone.

Michaell

I had a friend hit me up, asking about $1000 cars. Told him the $1000 from yesterday is now probably $2000 today, but I did find a '98 Accord LX with 157K on the odometer for only $1500. I didn't look at the ad too closely, so I couldn't tell you what needs it had.

xwesx

pensfan83 said:

@au1994 how about a company President/EVP sitting 4 floors above us instead of taking the elevator down. I remarked to my boss at the time that it was highly unbecoming for this person to ask us to setup the call then had the temerity to join via Teams instead of joining in person.

I completely agree! When it comes to in-person meetings, I much prefer them when there is not a lot of transit time involved. With my organization, most of us are located on the same campus, but up to a mile(ish) distant, so in-person meetings means adding up to fifteen minutes on either end of the meeting for the transit.

When it is a large meeting with a diversely located group, we go online all the way. However, when we're all in the same building, or in adjacent buildings where transit is about five minutes, the face to face interaction is appreciated.

stickguy

If you hunt enough and get lucky you might find a decent 1k car for 2K now. But the odds of it not needing a decent amount of $ put into it to get it up to snuff are very low. In my experience, people don't sell cars right after they fixed all the problems with it and renewed all the consumables.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

Whereas I used to get talked to often for my … hmmm… intolerant? behavior, now my initial reactions to idiots, I mean coworkers, are without viewership. I can compose myself before unmuting. Haha

Haha! We are spiritual kin. I get at last a few comments every month about some of the things I say, or the way I say it, at meetings. I just tell folks that I have a low tolerance for idiocy, so if you don't want me to call it out, don't be an idiot. Thankfully, I am valuable enough that I can get away with it, because I'd leave before I hold my tongue with that stuff. People don't like to hear the truth, but they definitely *need* to hear it!

One added benefit is that I don't get voluntold to participate in many committees anymore! I was on a high-level committee for several years (several years ago, now), and, at the start of that year's cycle, we were told that the goal was to identify "at least three" programs for elimination. You know, this stuff is tough because we're talking about something that involves people, and of course, to somebody out there in the world, this is their baby! But, that was the mandate.

After three months of time, our group had gone through this complex rating / ranking system, but we didn't recommend a single program for elimination. Not one. I pointed this out. And, I received this long explanation about how it "wasn't our place." So, I went through and determined how much money our organization had spent *just on the meetings* over that prior three months (the time of sixteen people, many of whom were fairly high-ranking officials), and that it was probably the most wasteful thing we had done that year (far worse than any of these programs)... so we should recommend eliminating our committee.

Happily, that brief presentation got a few laughs and I wasn't invited back the next year! The funny thing is, though, that even people that I clearly insult in meetings still reach out to me for advice because they know I will call it like I see it. For the record, my intention is not to insult... I cannot control people's reactions!

xwesx

stickguy said:

If you hunt enough and get lucky you might find a decent 1k car for 2K now. But the odds of it not needing a decent amount of $ put into it to get it up to snuff are very low. In my experience, people don't sell cars right after they fixed all the problems with it and renewed all the consumables.

Yeah, many times it isn't a matter of finding one, but determining how much you're going to have to put into it as soon as you get it home!

I know a guy who recently bought late aughts Jetta for $800. The car's mechanicals and exterior weren't bad, but the interior was a hot mess (which, of course, caused issues with electronics as well, since these cars have so many various modules under seats, etc.). He put in a fair amount of work in finding replacement pieces, fixing things, cleaning, etc., and, when done, sold it for $4,500. The buyer got a great car, though, that was fully refurbished/maintained at the time of purchase.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

If you hunt enough and get lucky you might find a decent 1k car for 2K now. But the odds of it not needing a decent amount of $ put into it to get it up to snuff are very low. In my experience, people don't sell cars right after they fixed all the problems with it and renewed all the consumables.

Great point. I’ve never bought a sub $5k car that didn’t have some needs. If you’re lucky it’s something you can live with like a non working AC in a winter beater. You just hope it’s not something major like worn timing chains or excessive oil burning. For example, the 2006 Mercury Sable i bought for $3500 had a non functional rear defroster because when it came up from Florida someone removed the illegal tint with an ice scraper and broke the wires. Used replacement rear glass $300.


Bring all your own testing tools to look at it because usually taking a cheap hooptie to a mechanic isn’t practical. And don’t hesitate. Any decent cheap car will be gone in 24 hours. Be prepared to pounce with a roll of hundreds tucked in your sock. On the aforementioned Sable (49,000 miles, no rust) I saw the ad as it was posted, drove there and bought it. The owner got multiple calls the same day.

tjc78

IDK guys - I think the $1000 driver is more like $2500-$3000 today based on what I’m seeing

Here is the Park Avenue. It’s the standard 3800 and has cold AC.

Terrible pics but it doesn’t look all that bad for $2450.

https://www.facebook.com/share/1FfmpDad7E/?mibextid=wwXIfr

stickguy

Looks ok. And close to you. Worth a look and if it passes your road test hard to go wrong. You can always resell it.

imidazol97

tjc78 said:

IDK guys - I think the $1000 driver is more like $2500-$3000 today based on what I’m seeing

Here is the Park Avenue. It’s the standard 3800 and has cold AC.

Terrible pics but it doesn’t look all that bad for $2450.

https://www.facebook.com/share/1FfmpDad7E/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Besides the front supports for the subframe, check the spring platforms in the rear for rust.
Drive the car with the transmission fully warmed shifting from a dead stop. Watch for it going into
1811 code where the transmission control on the shifts can't modulate the pressures right due to leakage on the slider valve for pressure control. The trans is put into high pressure mode during the shift to prevent excess slippage, so the shifts will be sharp/quick.

Turning off the car for 30 seconds or more resets the controlling computer until the shifts take too long and it goes back into 1811 trans error mode.

breld

Wife and I got out Saturday to take a sneak peek at some EVs and other vehicles (again, still 6 payments left on my Audi lease, but hey, need to do the research!).

Land Cruiser/GX - we stopped at Toyota and Lexus as I just wanted to take a closer look. No test drives or anything. Toyota has a decent selection of LCs, as long as you're good with the base model and either black or silver. Lexus had a demo to look at, but we were told up front that there's a one year wait for a new one. A base $55 LC is somewhat attractive compared to something like the Bronco, but you'd definitely get a nicer Bronco at that price. Thing is, a well equipped LC runs close to $70k, and the Lexus is about $72k for a Premium + trim.

Volvo - the EX90 is REALLY nice if you already like the XC90, which I do. If leasing becomes attractive on those, that will be a nice option. The Polestar 3 is on the same platform and gives more of a wagon vibe, which I normally would like, but the overall design seems a bit busier than the Volvo. But lease deals are becoming attractive on the Polestar. Wife liked the EX30 they had in the showroom...at an MSRP of about $45k, it's an interesting EV option.

Audi E-tron GT - local Carmax had a nice 2022 E-tron GT (the Taycan cousin) w/15k miles. This one I actually drove. All in all, I'd say it's an impressive sport sedan that happens to be electric, and it has some serious presence in person. Reminded me a lot of my 840i gran coupe. And like the 840i, you can get a six-figure high end sport sedan for half price or less. At $55k, it's something I'd think about.

kyfdx

Is the GX a LC clone? I thought it was 4Runner based?

nyccarguy

kyfdx said:

Is the GX a LC clone? I thought it was 4Runner based?

They are all based on the same platform. Tacoma/LC/GX/4Runner.

nyccarguy

breld said:

Wife and I got out Saturday to take a sneak peek at some EVs and other vehicles (again, still 6 payments left on my Audi lease, but hey, need to do the research!).

Land Cruiser/GX - we stopped at Toyota and Lexus as I just wanted to take a closer look. No test drives or anything. Toyota has a decent selection of LCs, as long as you're good with the base model and either black or silver. Lexus had a demo to look at, but we were told up front that there's a one year wait for a new one. A base $55 LC is somewhat attractive compared to something like the Bronco, but you'd definitely get a nicer Bronco at that price. Thing is, a well equipped LC runs close to $70k, and the Lexus is about $72k for a Premium + trim.

Volvo - the EX90 is REALLY nice if you already like the XC90, which I do. If leasing becomes attractive on those, that will be a nice option. The Polestar 3 is on the same platform and gives more of a wagon vibe, which I normally would like, but the overall design seems a bit busier than the Volvo. But lease deals are becoming attractive on the Polestar. Wife liked the EX30 they had in the showroom...at an MSRP of about $45k, it's an interesting EV option.

Audi E-tron GT - local Carmax had a nice 2022 E-tron GT (the Taycan cousin) w/15k miles. This one I actually drove. All in all, I'd say it's an impressive sport sedan that happens to be electric, and it has some serious presence in person. Reminded me a lot of my 840i gran coupe. And like the 840i, you can get a six-figure high end sport sedan for half price or less. At $55k, it's something I'd think about.

I think the base "1958" Land Cruiser is really sharp looking. They did a nice job with it. However it has not been received well. Dealers have them on the lots and they can be had with a healthy discount. The GX is a Land Cruiser clone with a 3rd row and a twin turbo V6. They are around. You've got to find one and then a generous dealer that will sell it to you at MSRP.