Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

Michaell

It’s gonna be a mess to figure out which vehicles will have a tariff applied, and which won’t.

stickguy

I was wondering how parts come into play with components moving back and forth. If only the final product automobile is tariffed will be much simpler.

and my guess, if there are 5 makers and 4 get hit by a tariff, the 5th will just raise prices to rake in extra money.

and how can a brand that gets some stock from a US plant and some from Canada (like say a Ford PU) deal with this? 2 different prices? raise them all?

laurasdada

And will our favorite dealers start ADM to cover the tariffs, before MFGs actually raise prices?

jmonroe1

explorerx4 said:

A more accurate statement regarding Ford trucks is some engines are manufactured in Windsor, Ontario.
It looks like the 5.0 and 7.3 V8's are made there, each at their own plant.

————————————————
I remember back in the late 50’s when I was in high school, some of the Ford V8 engines were built in Windsor and a lot of folks thought they were better than the V8’s built here. It wasn’t uncommon to hear, “does your car have the Windsor engine” as soon as someone said they had a Ford V8.

I don’t know what the differences were but folks were adamant about wanting the Windsor engine.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

Michaell said:

It’s gonna be a mess to figure out which vehicles will have a tariff applied, and which won’t.

————————————————
I wouldn’t worry about that too much. I’m sure the government has it figured out.

jmonroe

benjaminh

I was born in 1964 and I'm feeling my years. But anyway, in 1964 imported cars had around 5% of the US market. By 1980 imported cars had about 25% of the market. There were lots of grim stories then in the newspapers, on TV, and in magazines about the decline of the US auto industry. And now, 45 years later, imported vehicles are about half of all vehicles sold in the US. There's been a lot of good that has come to the US from free trade, but a lot of hardships as well. Some communities and cities have been devastated by the closure of factories for cars and other things over the last fifty years. Probably most of those factories are never coming back, although other kinds of businesses and services have done well during that time.

My guess is that the current car tariffs are probably misguided and poorly implemented. And in general the US seems to be alienating allies we've had since at least World War II, and sometimes much longer than that, which is a concern.

But there is a chance some good jobs could come back to the US. Maybe. But will it be worth it when higher vehicle prices and other things are taken into consideration?

explorerx4

@jmonroe1,
Ford had 2 351 cu/in engines.
One was a Windsor and the other a Cleveland.
The Cleveland was a higher performance engine but got dropped due to emissions restrictions in the later 70's.
The Windsor lived on as a smaller 5.0 liter for many years.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

now this is way cool. super low miles too for some reason.

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/3gnWOOWo/2006-mazda5-sport

Went for over $8600. I’ll never get used to the new normal.😢

stickguy

laurasdada said:

And will our favorite dealers start ADM to cover the tariffs, before MFGs actually raise prices?

I am sure there are some sleazeballs that already had to idea of throwing a Tariff ADM sticker on. Just cross out market adjustment and call it tariff.

qbrozen

@laurasdada said:
I think y'all are forgetting that, according to the leading economist in his own mind, consumers don't pay for tariffs. The exporting countries pay them.

Can’t say as I forgot that since I don’t recall ever hearing it. Where/when was this said?

jmonroe1

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

now this is way cool. super low miles too for some reason.

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/3gnWOOWo/2006-mazda5-sport

Went for over $8600. I’ll never get used to the new normal.😢

————————————————
Neither will I but that Mazda had very low miles for its age and if that is legit and rust free, it should be good for at least another 4 to 5 years without too much wrench turning.

I’m curious what @qbrozen thinks it’s worth.

jmonroe

tjc78

You’ll never fully know the tariff impact. It will just come as a raised sticker price.

Tariffs are paid by the importer at the time of entry to the US.

imidazol97

explorerx4 said:

@jmonroe1,
Ford had 2 351 cu/in engines.
One was a Windsor and the other a Cleveland.
The Cleveland was a higher performance engine but got dropped due to emissions restrictions in the later 70's.
The Windsor lived on as a smaller 5.0 liter for many years.

I had a 73 Torino with the Windsor engine. A pathetic excuse for a device of propulsion.
At 60K mi approx, the timing gears lost teeth and jumped timing. I traded it for a real
car the evening I picked up the repaired Ford from the local ripoff dealership. Got an Olds Cutlass.

explorerx4

My wife had a 78 Cutlass. The engine randomly spewed oil all over the engine bay and the paint cracked and flaked off after 3 years.
After that she bought a Toyota which was also a POS.
The she switched to Ford and has pretty much driven those ever since.
So we each put out a pawn. What's your next move?

Sandman6472

So glad I'm not in the market right now & guessing I won't be for awhile now. But something tells me these tariffs are going to blow up in what's his name's face & make the United States look really bad. Like we don't already look like a third world nation!!! Let the s--t show begin!!!

xwesx

explorerx4 said:

My wife had a 78 Cutlass. The engine randomly spewed oil all over the engine bay and the paint cracked and flaked off after 3 years.
After that she bought a Toyota which was also a POS.
The she switched to Ford and has pretty much driven those ever since.
So we each put out a pawn. What's your next move?

Haha; touche! There are anecdotes for every brand, for sure.

qbrozen

@Sandman6472 said:
So glad I'm not in the market right now & guessing I won't be for awhile now. But something tells me these tariffs are going to blow up in what's his name's face & make the United States look really bad. Like we don't already look like a third world nation!!! Let the s--t show begin!!!

Begin? It’s been here for decades. It just goes through different periods of camouflage, but the show goes on regardless.

qbrozen

I found what appears to be a nice JGC, but the Facebook seller is a bit cagey. An admitted curbstoner who has answered my questions EXCEPT my twice request for the VIN. Sigh.

stickguy

I must be one of the rare old dudes here that had no experience with big domestics as a kid. I was about 7 when a Volvo became the family car, and I was a senior in HS with my own car before that got sold and replaced by an Omni. which really was more like an import! Though for a while in there my father had a big Ford wagon when we was chief or assistant chief in the volunteer fire department.

a neighbor that was a family friend did have a 2 door early 70s Torino. they also had a super beetle. and one of my close friends drove his family 1974 Caprice 4 door. Now that was a barge.

corvette

stickguy said:

I am sure there are some sleazeballs that already had to idea of throwing a Tariff ADM sticker on. Just cross out market adjustment and call it tariff.

"We're pretty sure we're going to make less money when tariffs are enacted, so we're going to start charging extra now to make up for it!"

qbrozen

@jmonroe1 said:
————————————————
Neither will I but that Mazda had very low miles for its age and if that is legit and rust free, it should be good for at least another 4 to 5 years without too much wrench turning.

I’m curious what @qbrozen thinks it’s worth.

jmonroe

Oh was that the manual mazda5? I was watching that one until it got stupid. It is one of those things with no solid value. The market has spoken, I guess? But I would have thought $6k was ALL the money.

fintail

I recall those were badged MX-3 Precidia in Canada, just MX-3 in USA.

On that note there was the similar Nissan NX, also available with a tiny V6. I knew a girl in high school who had one of these, a new car at the time:

ab348 said:

benjaminh said:

We used to own a Mazda5 with the 5-speed manual. A weird vehicle for sure, but surprisingly fun to drive and functional. But then the IIHS came out saying that it performed very badly in crash tests, I mean one of their worst vehicles ever, and so we ditched it asap.

Mazda has a tendency to produce vehicles that are out of the mainstream. Last night I saw an article about a vehicle I had forgotten about, the MX-3 of the early '90s. That is the tiny sporty couple available with either a 90hp 4-banger or a 130hp 1.8L V6, apparently one of the smallest such engines ever developed. Around here I saw just a few before they converted to iron oxide.

nyccarguy

@Michaell said:
While they may compete in the same segment, I seriously doubt a Toyota shopper will pivot to Ford based only on price.

They will just hold on to their current Toyota for a few more years!

stickguy

the way things are going I may just be getting 8 year/75K Ford platinum extended warranty and keeping the Maverick indefinitely. Buying is losing appeal!

plus at 4-5K miles per year, and keeping it like new and over maintained, it may not even depreciate much.

anonymousposts2025

We are trying to decide whether to buy now or wait until the dust settles from the tarrifs.

We drove a Prologue. It was nice. In a GM with a Honda badge kind of way. Drove and felt more GM than Honda. Deals are nice, but looks like they’re problematic.

Briefly considered a 25 CRV Hybrid, still somewhat in the running but not sold. Lightly looking into a BMW EV now.

benjaminh

https://www.motortrend.com/news/nissan-honda-merger-talks-continue-new-partners/

Nissan is still in a poor financial situation.

I wonder if some other company might want to just buy one of their US factories?

benjaminh

anonymousposts2025 said:

We are trying to decide whether to buy now or wait until the dust settles from the tarrifs....

It's possible these on again off again tariffs will just go away. But there's also a good chance they won't.

My 2 cents: If you think you're going to need a car in the next few years, maybe go ahead and get it sooner rather than later, because prices are likely to go up, and selection is going to be less good. Since half of the CR-Vs sold in the US are from Canada, for instance, those are probably going up in price, unless this turns out to be some kind of fake out/misguided negotiating strategy.

At this point, as that article in the New York Times said, it's difficult to say how much prices will go up and when. But one guess might be that within two to six months prices might go up around 10% more or less across the board. Incentives might also be less generous, or even vanish for some models.

benjaminh

It is somewhat surprising to me that only half of GM's vehicles are now made in the US. If the tariffs go into effect Ford seemingly will be in a better situation, since almost 80% of Ford's vehicles are from US factories.

Niche vehicles like the Mazda MIata might become victims of this trade war. I hope not, but I don't imagine Mazda really makes money on the Miata anyway, since it's more of a halo vehicle. The US I assume is by far the largest market for that car, and if a 25% tariff causes sales to collapse...

In general Mazda is in tough shape if this trade war happens, since only 19% of their vehicles are made in the US.

After Ford (and aside from Tesla), Honda seems to be in by far best shape, since 64% of their vehicles are already made here + Honda actually makes engines and transmissions in the US as well.

benjaminh

The projected tariffs seem problematic and cumbersome. Some things I've seen suggest a paperwork nightmare trying to figure out and document how much of each component comes from what country.

In any case, I wonder if a GM executive said to the administration something like: yes, we'll bring substantial production back to the US. But that's going to take time and a lot of money. Give us two years relief from the tariffs and during that time we'll get a lot of it done.

But when inflation starts rising as a result of these tariffs, the stock market starts falling, and we perhaps even start sliding into a recession, it seems possible the tariff policy will just change again.

nyccarguy

@anonymousposts2025 said:
We are trying to decide whether to buy now or wait until the dust settles from the tarrifs.

We drove a Prologue. It was nice. In a GM with a Honda badge kind of way. Drove and felt more GM than Honda. Deals are nice, but looks like they’re problematic.

Briefly considered a 25 CRV Hybrid, still somewhat in the running but not sold. Lightly looking into a BMW EV now.

This would be to replace your RAV4 Hybrid or in addition to the fleet?

explorerx4

@stickguy,
If you are looking at extended service plans for your Mav, get a quote from Granger Ford.

kyfdx

The BMW South Carolina plant assembles all their SUVs for the entire world. Since that's most of what BMW sells in the USA, they are in pretty good shape from an assembly standpoint. However, most of the parts are imported, especially the engines.

stickguy

If they make their own parts there isn’t really an importer to tariff though. Those might just end up in the final product.

And likely bmw gets hit in the export vehicles.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

If they make their own parts there isn’t really an importer to tariff though. Those might just end up in the final product.

And likely bmw gets hit in the export vehicles.

If BMW imports parts for it's USA assembly plant, the tariff will be applied, and will have to be paid. Doesn't matter if BMW already owns the parts, or not. They are the importer (or, some subsidiary)

And, they'll probably get hit with retaliatory tariffs by the EU or UK, if importing the finished vehicles back there.

sda

benjaminh said:

https://www.bmwgroup-werke.com/spartanburg/en/our-plant.html

If the tariffs happen BMW might be in a better position than some. Last year BMW sold about 370,000 vehicles in the US. BMW assembled at its South Carolina plant about 400,000 vehicles, about 60% of which were exported. No doubt it would be a production changeover nightmare, but theoretically, maybe in a year or so, most of the production at the plant could be reoriented to what the US market buys, and German factories could take over supplying vehicles for other countries around the world.

If you are in the Charlotte area, it is about a 90 minute drive to the BMW plant. They have a nice museum, gift store. Better yet, take the plant tour. It is impressive.

stickguy

@kyfdx said:
If BMW imports parts for it's USA assembly plant, the tariff will be applied, and will have to be paid. Doesn't matter if BMW already owns the parts, or not. They are the importer (or, some subsidiary)

And, they'll probably get hit with retaliatory tariffs by the EU or UK, if importing the finished vehicles back there.

Retaliation tariffs is what I was referring to.

kyfdx

Ah...gotcha

@sda Agreed on the BMW plant tour. It's been decades ago since we've been there, but we really liked it.

laurasdada

qbrozen said:

@laurasdada said:

I think y'all are forgetting that, according to the leading economist in his own mind, consumers don't pay for tariffs. The exporting countries pay them.

Can’t say as I forgot that since I don’t recall ever hearing it. Where/when was this said?

I was referring to El Presidente and his spokesmodel when initially (and still, I believe) referring to his bigly tariffs to be "taxes" on the exporting countries. In latter times, he has noted that yes, us consumers may feel some pain.
But, as is the NH motto, "Live more expensively and can't afford to die!"

benjaminh

kyfdx said:

The BMW South Carolina plant assembles all their SUVs for the entire world. Since that's most of what BMW sells in the USA, they are in pretty good shape from an assembly standpoint. However, most of the parts are imported, especially the engines.

BMW may not want to do this, but if they spent $2 billion or so on an engine and transmission plant in the US, along with redoing their production for the US, they could probably escape most of the tariffs.

kyfdx

benjaminh said:

kyfdx said:

The BMW South Carolina plant assembles all their SUVs for the entire world. Since that's most of what BMW sells in the USA, they are in pretty good shape from an assembly standpoint. However, most of the parts are imported, especially the engines.

BMW may not want to do this, but if they spent $2 billion or so on an engine and transmission plant in the US, along with redoing their production for the US, they could probably escape most of the tariffs.

Sure.. they could have it up and running in.. 8 years?

benjaminh

I heard one commentator yesterday saying that maybe one or two players might just pull out of the US market because of the economic costs of tariffs and uncertainty.

That seems unlikely to me, since I think the US is the second biggest car market in the world after China. And China, as we know, is even tougher to sell in than the US .

But if a brand is forced to pull out because of the tariffs one possibility might be Mazda. If these 25% tariffs actually happen, then suddenly 80% of Mazda vehicles will both go up in price and become unprofitable. I'm not quite sure how they survive in the US in that situation. But maybe they can muddle through somehow. Or maybe the tariffs will just get axed at some point, or some kind of deal can be made.

kyfdx

I'd guess niche players like Mitsubishi would be more at risk. But, that's just a guess.

It's hard to see car companies making giant structural changes over tariffs that could disappear any day, or at worst in less than four years.

benjaminh

kyfdx said:

Sure.. they could have it up and running in.. 8 years?

I think Honda built their engine factory in Alabama in about 2 years at a cost of around $1 billion. It makes c. 340,000 engines a year. Of course that was a long time ago, and costs would be higher now.

https://hondainamerica.com/manufacturing/

kyfdx

benjaminh said:

kyfdx said:

Sure.. they could have it up and running in.. 8 years?

I think Honda built their engine factory in Alabama in about 2 years at a cost of around $1 billion. It makes c. 340,000 engines a year. Of course that was a long time ago, and costs would be higher now.

https://hondainamerica.com/manufacturing/

My guess is they didn't plan it, identify a location, then build it, all in two years.

BMW assembles 300K+ cars each year in SC. If they don't see the value in having an engine plant here in the last 30 years that factory has been operational, I don't think they'll start now.

benjaminh

kyfdx said:

It's hard to see car companies making giant structural changes over tariffs that could disappear any day, or at worst in less than four years.

You might well be right. I really don't know.

But if these tariffs actually go into effect long-term the lost profits will be large. The stocks of most automakers have already fallen, but commentators are saying the full damages to profits haven't yet been taken into account in the stock prices, because many think that the tariffs could just be a negotiating tool of some kind, and might end quickly. But if they actually go into effect for months and then years, these companies might not want years of losses, and instead might take expensive steps to avoid the tariffs. I just don't know.

And then there's this....

“How this auto union leader’s support for Trump’s tariffs scrambled labor politics again

By BILL BARROW and STEPHEN GROVES
Updated 7:07 PM EDT, March 27, 2025

In praising the Trump administration’s tariff plan, United Auto Workers President Shawn Fain asserted the union’s independence.

The UAW,  and the working class in general, couldn’t care less about party politics,” Fain said.


Fain, who announced UAW’s endorsement of Harris over Trump last year by declaring Trump to be “all talk” on labor issues, hailed his administration this week “for stepping up to end the free-trade disaster that has devastated working-class communities for decades.”

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-auto-tariffs-union-workers-0de3e6f328cae87ded425380d0462516

"In a Victory for Autoworkers, Auto Tariffs Mark the Beginning of the End of NAFTA and the “Free Trade” Disaster"

https://uaw.org/tariffs-mark-beginning-of-victory-for-autoworkers/

kyfdx

benjaminh said:

kyfdx said:

It's hard to see car companies making giant structural changes over tariffs that could disappear any day, or at worst in less than four years.

You might well be right. I really don't know.

But if these tariffs actually go into effect long-term the lost profits will be large. The stocks of most automakers have already fallen, but commentators are saying the full damages to profits haven't yet been taken into account in the stock prices, because many think that the tariffs could just be a negotiating tool of some kind, and might end quickly. But if they actually go into effect for months and then years, these companies might not want years of losses, and instead might take expensive steps to avoid the tariffs. I just don't know.

And then there's this....

“In praising the Trump administration’s tariff plan, United Auto Workers President Shawn Fain asserted the union’s independence.

The UAW,  and the working class in general, couldn’t care less about party politics,” Fain said.


Fain, who announced UAW’s endorsement of Harris over Trump last year by declaring Trump to be “all talk” on labor issues, hailed his administration this week “for stepping up to end the free-trade disaster that has devastated working-class communities for decades.”

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-auto-tariffs-union-workers-0de3e6f328cae87ded425380d0462516

"In a Victory for Autoworkers, Auto Tariffs Mark the Beginning of the End of NAFTA and the “Free Trade” Disaster"

https://uaw.org/tariffs-mark-beginning-of-victory-for-autoworkers/

Google the latest UAW news from this week. See how that's working out for them.

roadburner

explorerx4 said:

@jmonroe1,
Ford had 2 351 cu/in engines.
One was a Windsor and the other a Cleveland.
The Cleveland was a higher performance engine but got dropped due to emissions restrictions in the later 70's.
The Windsor lived on as a smaller 5.0 liter for many years.

IIRC the 351C had the same cylinder head design as the Boss 302. It was a great motor.

oldfarmer50

benjaminh said:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/nissan-honda-merger-talks-continue-new-partners/

Nissan is still in a poor financial situation.

I wonder if some other company might want to just buy one of their US factories?

Does Mitsubishi still have that big plant in Normal IL.? I seem to remember they were planning to do something with Chrysler at one point but neither company could utilize the entire facility.

nyccarguy

I love all of you guys, but this tariff chatter is giving me a headache. Can we cool it down until something ACTUALLY happens? I'm dealing with NONSTOP price increases for the last month plus and more (possibly) coming. These tariffs negatively effect every aspect of my business. Domestic steel, domestic copper, imported brass fittings, iron fittings, lead, & wax just to name a few.

Michaell

oldfarmer50 said:

benjaminh said:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/nissan-honda-merger-talks-continue-new-partners/

Nissan is still in a poor financial situation.

I wonder if some other company might want to just buy one of their US factories?

Does Mitsubishi still have that big plant in Normal IL.? I seem to remember they were planning to do something with Chrysler at one point but neither company could utilize the entire facility.

No, that plant is now owned by Rivian.