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Comments
The Nokians were $127 apiece, before installation. This was less than they would have cost me through e-tire ($129.99). The total bill came to $608.
Golden Valley Tire is definitely a full service tire shop (they charge for labor, etc.) and wow, are they thorough. When I had originally called for the fitment, they had already sold the Nokian in stock. Ken Curtis contacted the people who deliver their tires, but the delivery guy was already on the road. He had him paged, got the order in and had the tires when I called at 9:30am the next morning.
They don't let anyone walk out of there with more than a 3% difference on their speedometer (the difference on mine is 1.8%). Dave (the boss) called Nokia for the exact diameter of that tire, then got under the car while I turned the wheel, and then he felt around the struts in the back. Next, he had his crew put my Forester on the lift and put one tire on the front and one on the back to test it. When the Nokians checked out OK, they asked me if I wanted them on. When people are willing to bust their buns to give you service like that, how can you say no?
If the Nokians work out, or if there is a problem and Golden Valley is just as good as they were at the fitment, I will be singing their praises everywhere. And, I must say, my Forester tracks really straight -- I can take my hands off the wheel on the freeway and there is no drift!! There is no bounce, the ride feels smoother and more secure. Haven't noticed any lean on turns, either, but haven't tested them on our twisty highway ramps yet. I'll let everyone know how they perform on snow and black ice -- my biggest concern. Golden Valley just installed NRWs for one of KARE 11 TV's news personalities -- the guy says he can climb trees with 'em!!! Also, word up on other websites is that NRWs do actually last 50,000 miles!
If these tires perform as well as they say they do, the money spent will be well worth it.
Noelle
I am new here and haven't posted before. I am looking to replace the OEM Goodyear Eagle 245/45-17 tires on my '97 Mustang GT. These were Z rated and I may not really need such a high rating. I don't live in the snow belt but would like good wet handling as I have a steep hill on my commute and it rains most of the winter here in Nor. Calif.
I found plenty of useful info in tirerack.com and other websites. But I could sure use some first hand experiences.
Thanks.
Welcome aboard! I am confident someone here with experience will be happy to share!
tidester
Host
Aftermarket & Accessories
Again, thanks for any help with this.
I would guess that Olsen carries some of the above brands.
Paul
Another tire to consider is the Michelin X-One. It will provide a bit better snow traction at the expense of some sportiness and response.
For something a bit more affordable look at the BFGoodrich Control T/A M65 which got a very good snow traction rating in Consumer Reports.
Hope this helps.
I have a 2001 Sienna, purchased in March 2001. I didn't want the Firestones that came on it and the Dunlop SP40s available from lower line Siennas were useless in a snow storm encountered while on pre-purchase test drives. Had a co-worker who hooked me up with a Goodyear dealer and swapped the Dunlops with for Aquatreads on delivery of the van.
The fun began immediately. It took 9 tires to find 4 that didn't wobble excessively on the balancer. By watching the tire rotate, you could follow the tread. Some of the worse ones moved almost an inch from side to side extremetys. During installation, some tires were unseated from the rim and re-set up to 2 times before being discarded. Finally had 4 "good" tires and off I went.
After taking it easy on the van for the first 1000 KMs, (speeds less than 90 KM/Hr) took a highway trip and found the balance was off. Back to the tire store where 3 were re-balanced. The 4th was replaced. It would balance, but the wobble was excessive. We're now up to 10 tires to get 4 "good" ones. Away I drove off a happy bust suspicious camper.
At 10,000 KM, I rotated the tires (Toyota dealer). Immediately noticed a pull to the right that wasn't there before rotation. Gave the tires a week to settle in, with no change. Have a high speed vibration as well in steering. Had the alignment checked at the Toyota dealership, within specs. Returned to the Goodyear store for front tire re-balance. One was off slightly. Tire retailer suggests pull is not that bad. Went on another 1.5 hour highway trip and noticed slightly less balance vibration, but it's still there. Pull is a pain, steering wheel cocked about 1" off center, in the LEFT lane so crown effect should be minimized.
Call to tire retailer; he's ordered a new $18,000.00 balancer as he is having all kinds of trouble with all kinds of tires. Seems the industry has changed the way they make tires, or specifically the bead. The wobble problem comes from not being able to set the bead properly on the rim. He had the same problem with a set of Yokohamas recently.
Anyone else having a similar story or hear of a general tire problem?
Thanks for the info. As for the Michelins, I was able to squeek out a total of 34,000 miles. Food for thought, the P600 has a tread wear of 180 whereas the P3000 (that I purchased) have a treadwear of 620. The P3000 come with an 85,000 mile warranty and they are deemed to have an exceptionally long tread life. Time will tell if I made the right choice.
Greg
If you want to save a few more $$ then look at the Toyo M410 Open Country and the Cooper Discoverer. Both do well in snow and both get good ratings. Should be less expensive than the BFG or Michelin.
I also noted the consumer reports on the 2 favoring the Long Trails. But go to Tirerack.com. What I summize is that CR favors the braking characteristics of the Long Trails. If you read the owner comments at Tirerack, you will notice that the LTX are pretty good all around but the Long trails have some wet road issues.
You decide
I'm not ready to buy the story on a new bead design. But the sad fact (as you recount) is that the consistency (read quality) of the GY tires are all over the place. And just because the store got them on and balanced doesn't mean that the inside construction is just as all over the place as those other tires. Now you are suffering from shifting belts and the like.
rcoos
The wider tire has a larger contact patch for better handling.
The wider tire will generally have a higher load capacity.
The wider tire will weigh more.
The wider tire likely have a greater circumference and diameter. Because of this it will perform fewer revs per mile.
What I've read is that a given vehicle, at a consistent tire inflation, will have the same area of contact patch; the patch's configuration will vary according to tire width, but overall the area is the same. So what you gain in width, you lose in length of patch.
I also read (same article, in Autoweek I think) that wider tires are not as good in rain and snow because they don't do as good a job of pushing the wet stuff out to the sides as a standard-width tire. There is more 'there there' to push the wet past on its way out the sides, so more slop stays under the tire, making hydroplaning, etc, more likely.
I also read (same article, in Autoweek I think) that wider tires are not as good in rain and snow because they don't do as good a job of pushing the wet stuff out to the sides as a standard-width tire.
Aren't wider tires better on curves (dry or wet) than narrow ones?
tidester
Host
Aftermarket & Accessories
I do not think there is a universal answer to this. The only way to draw a reasonable conclusion is to compare different sizes of a specific tire. Before I wrote my post I was looking at the specs of specific tire (Toyo Open Country A/T) and comparing numbers between their 235/70-16 tire and their 255/70-16. My goal in responding was to keep the aspect ratio and rim diameter the same size and compare tread width differences.
In my view, air pressure has a lot to do with the contact patch on the road. It's why race teams constantly play with air pressures during races.
If, as you say, everything else is equal (tire model, air pressure, rim specs, vehicle type, etc) I would think that the swept area of the contact patch is actually larger with the wider tire. How does a wider tire offer higher levels of grip if the overall size of the contact patch doesn't really change?
Finally, you are correct about rain and snow traction. A narrow, high aspect ratio tire will perform better in snow than a wide, low profile tire. It's that contact patch thing again.
Comments??
Wider tires are better on dry curves. I don't know if that's true in the wet. They just can't disperse the slop out to the sides as well, methinks.
-suvshopper4ster
As to why a wider tire gives better dry grip, I believe it is at least partly due to better side-to-side contact with the road.
Other than that, I don't know anything more to add. I guess we need some authoritative confirmation or disputation of a tire's contact patch area being constant.
I'm sure there is one of his 10-paragraph epics on this subject somewhere in the archives. I only wish some of his posts were separated from all the others here so they would be easily accessed.
tireguy Jul 7, 2001 2:11pm
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
"By using simple math you can convert the inches to milimeters and represent the sizes either way. 1in = 25.4mm So...
A 31x10.50R15 has a tread witch of 266.7mm. The sidewall [(overall height - rim size)/2] or [(31-15)/2] = 8in, or 203.2mm. 203.2mm is 76.2% of the tread width (266.7), so the aspect ratio would be 76.2, which rounds to 75 (again, tire sizing is not precise--any tire will lose around 1/2" of diameter over its life). So what are you left with? A 31x10.50R15 is the same as a 266.7/76.2R15, which rounds to 265/75R15. And if you compare the two (of the same model) in a tire shop, you'll see that the difference is indiscernable.
One more time:
10.50 * 25.4 = 266.7, tread width in mm
[(31"-15")/2] * 25.4 = 203.2, sidewall height in mm
203.2/266.7 = 0.762:1, aspect ratio
R is still R
15" rim is still 15" rim
leaving you with 266.7/76.2R15 or 265/75R15"
This sounds logical to me. We briefly discussed this in my college Physics class, and I can tell you that we don't use contact patch area when calculating stopping or skidding distances for a vehicle. The variables involved are mass, velocity, acceleration, and coefficient of friction. Coefficient of friction measures the amount of traction between, say, rubber and concrete. We didn't discuss that this number would be different for different types of rubber (tires) and different types of concrete (like broom-swept vs. polished).
What the physics courses leave out is that traction involves more than just friction. It also involves physical forces of tire protrusions pushing againt road protrusions at the macroscopic level. So, the size of the tire does matter.
tidester
Host
Aftermarket & Accessories
One thing to remember when stating that a wide contact patch is better than a long one. Cars are not only subject to lateral forces - cars also have to brake. So if you say you are gaining lateral traction you must admit that you are loosing it fore and aft.
I don't think wider tires really help as much as people think. The more important factor is sidewall height. As you get a wider tire for your car you have to decrease sidewall height to maintain the same rolling diameter. The reduction in sidewall height keeps the tire from rolling over in corners, and is really what helps a car handle - and feel more precise. So your car may handle better with wider tires, but not just because of the width. To illustrate this a 195-50 tire would offer better handling than a 225-70 tire.
Also note that a cheap and easy way to increase sidewall stiffness and reduce rollover is to increase your tire pressure. Your car will handle better with higher pressure, and you will get better gas mileage, and the tires will last longer. The ride will be rougher though, and if your tires are not well balanced you will feel more vibration in the steering wheel.
Not sure about this example. On the same vehicle, wouldn't the lower sidewall/aspect ratio (50) usually go with a higher treadwidth (not 195, but 225 in this example)?
Maybe you don't mean these tires would be on the same vehicle, but in general. Dunno.
Thanks for the confirmation on tire patch area remaining constant (and only the shape/configuration of the patch changing). Don't know if the article I read a few years back was in Autoweek or Road & Track (or elsewhere), but it made sense and stuck with me. Funny how a lot of people just figure 'wider is better' in all situations.
I am curious is it safe to increase tire pressure above manufacture recommendation? I am talking about 3-5 psi over. I always feel the recommended pressure leads to underperformed in cornering and acceleration. Do you think 3-5 psi will help this problem? Thank you
Chris
You have a Malibu, right? Well, my car is front wheel drive too. I run +2PSI in the fronts than the rears. My fronts are +7PSI over car mfr spec and +5PSI in the rear. But I am -5PSI from the max tire pressure. I've noticed that since over 50% of the weight is on the fronts that having a little more PSI helps with steering response without degrading the ride too much. I've been playing with the pressures for several months just to see if I can notice a difference. It takes at least 2PSI before I notice any real changes.
I use a racing-type air press. gauge but I recommend those digital types (did you read that thread on tire gauges?). I've found a gas station that has a real air compressor instead of those $20 junkers you find nowadays. With both of these I can accurately play with the pressures.
Have fun!!
Can they check the runout of the wheel and tire? I saw a balancing machine at SEMA show that had the ability to determine runout and what what causing it, wheel or tire. So the equipment is out there to figure out this one. You may need the services of a better equipped shop.
I am worried that I might have mis-aligned my wheel. Would anyone know, if I did (aside from getting symptoms on my tire later on or going for an expensive wheel alignment check?
Next, if the tire and rim check out fine or are replaced, drive it at low and freeway speeds. Does it feel the same as before or is there vibration or a pull? If you already got the wheel balanced and there are problems with the drive then you may need an alignment. If it all feels fine at this point, try to remember to check the tread on that tire after 5000km to make sure it is not wearing unevenly as uneven wear may show a slight alignment problem that you won't notice.
You may be fine, you may not. I'd be more worried about the tire sidewall than the alignment. In my '95 Geo Metro I swiped the curb a few times and ended up with a bulging tire which needed replacement, but the rim and alignment were fine. On the other hand, my wife jumped a curb in our Saturn LW200 wagon recently and I was expecting the worst but it drove fine, looked OK and held air well; I had all inspected anyways (for free at my Saturn service shop) and all tested fine.
The Continentals you purchased may be out of round but it is probably improper installation or balancing. Check out the Hunter Engineering website at GSP9700.com. The 9700 balancer determines road force variation, and will help you isolate the vibrations you are experiencing. The website will locate the closest available dealer with that equipment.
I would give the original installer one last opportunity to resolve the problem. If they are unsuccessful a total refund is in order. A different dealer with quality tires and trained technicians should cure the vibration. With the technology of today, there is no excuse for improper balance jobs.
Good luck!
If you swap the positions of the 2 front tires, the pulling should go away or start pulling to the left. This would indicate belt problems.
My 2000 Bonneville SE is at 39K miles and in need of replacements for the Firestone Affinity OEMs. Size is 225 60 16 and I've added a stabilizer bar on the back (not too many SE models are tightened up that way).
I'm looking for a good 3 season tire that will handle this New England winter well. They might be taken off next Nov for a new set of Blizzacks or Alpin Arctics for 2002-03 winter duty. Just can't afford 2 complete sets plus extra wheels in the next 6 months. I want a smooth quiet ride with good wet weather handling and long tread wear and have basically come up with Aquatread III as the top choice. Michelin Symmetry attracted my attention but seems to have a short tread life. I see that the MXV4 Energy tires are well spoken of in posts above too.
Any comments about the Aquatread IIIs? I've read your comments above about the beading issue and am not sure what to make of that situation. Hope that is not a widespread problem. Tirerack reviews suggest they may be a bit less assertive in the twisties - anyone know how bad? Someone in Tirerack wrote that Aquatread IIIs ride very different in a softer sprung car which may direct the road imperfections into the cabin than a stiffer suspension setting which can direct the harshness back at the road. Not sure how my car falls into that spectrum sith the stiffened rear end.
What other tires should I consider? Price is a determining factor too, so $100 per tire is a figure I hope not to exceed.
Thanks in advance.
Ken
If you look at Michelin's all-season tire page, you'll see that the X One has a 80000 mile tread warranty and much better wet and all-season traction than the Symmetries with the same comfort rating.
I have a set of them on my Saturn LW200 and find them to be great in dry and wet (only sprinkles of snow this year so far). They ride quietly too. I'll probably know soon how well they do in the snow.
I have Rainforce MX4's on my other car (X Ones don't come in 155/80R13) and while they are a decent tire (better than the Goodyear Invictas they replaced), the X Ones are much better. I may need to put Alpins on that car this winter if we get much white stuff.
I also looked at the Aquatread IIIs but around here they are more expensive than the Michelins and they are directional tires and I envisioned myself arguing with service techs about that later. The Michelins are unidirectional so you don't have to worry about that.
Thanks for the Michelin site above. I looked at it and am impressed with those X-1s. The customer rep at Tirerack that I spoke to today also recommended them and has availability at $109 ea which sounds pretty reasonable.
Ken
I think the X-One is a fine tire but not a panacea for every car and every driver.
A Bonnie is a big car and needs a more serious tire, not like the Affinity was a serious tire; what a piece of trash.
I think the X-One is OK and for $110 it'll do the job. But if it were me I'd put on something a little more robust.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus. A luxury-sport tire, very well made, very smooth yet sportier than an X-One or Symmetry. There's a very good reason you see this tire on many Lexuses, Benzes, Volvos, Saabs, and many others. As long as you don't consider yourself an aggressive driver, this tire will be perfect for a car like the Bonnie.
2. Dunlop SP Sport A2. Brand new from Dunlop replacing the loved D60A2. More sport than luxury. Will wake up the handling of the Bonnie. Since it's new there's not much history but early returns are promising.
3. Yokohama Avid V4. The value-performance choice. Similar to the Dunlop in priorities. Those that have this tire love it. If you want good handling while leaving a few bucks in your pocket, put this high on your list.
4. Toyo Proxes TPT. My darkhorse choice. Brand new on the market. Haven't seen any consumer comments. Uses alot of technology and design from the Proxes FZ4 which is a terrific all-season performance tire. Another good value.
The Bonneville is a car with sporting intentions. The X-One is not a sport tire. The Aquatread is not a sport tire. The Affinity's were not a sport tire. The car can use some help in this arena.
But if you're mellow and easy, listening to Michael Bolton and the Eagles, the X-One or the Aquatread will serve you well. The world of 225/60-16 is vast and wide. Everything under the sun comes in that size. $120 should be the ceiling price; any more and you're getting ripped.
Hope this helps. Have fun shopping.