I replaced the OEM Firestone Affinity tires on my 99 odyssey with Michelin Symmetry tires. I got 48K miles on the Firestone tires but I checked the pressure weekly, and rotated them every 7500 miles. I drive fairly agresively. I put more miles on the Firestone than any other tire I ever had in over 40 years of driving. I chose the Symmetry over the X- ones because they were rated slightly higher by tire rack.
I would recommend the Yoko. Avid Touring tires. I bought one set for my wifes mini-van, and like them so much I bought another set for my car. They are the quietest and smoothest tires I've ever driven, and they're great in rain, and from what I can tell they're real good in snow too, although I haven't had a chance to test them in deep snow yet. At $42/each on tire rack you can't beat the price, and I think they're the number 1 rated standard touring tire on tire rack too. Why spend more money if you don't need to?
Thanks for the info. My decision got pushed from thinking about to urgent when I went out and had a flat this morning. I have decided on the Yokos and am looking forward to getting them (they're bound to be better than the Generals that are on it now).
215 is the width of the tire, in millimeters (mm).
65 is the aspect ratio, which is to say it is 65% as tall as it is wide -- high numbers are high-profile tires like on bicycles or my Geo Metro's 155/80R13 tires, while low numbers are low-profile tires like on sports cars.
The R means it is a radial tire, which applies to most passenger-car and van tires. Some truck and off-road tires might be otherwise but I don't pay much attention to those.
16 is the wheel diameter size in inches.
Go to any tire manufacturer's web site or tirerack, etc. and there is usually a tire selector which lets you input your vehicle type and year and it will suggest new tires for your stock rims. You usually want to keep the overall sidewall height the same or your speedometer and odometer will be off, etc. Some tires will be too wide or too skinny to fit on your rims, unless you want to splurge for new rims as well.
Well, IMO the Maxima is a sport sedan and should use a sport tire to maximize its handling capabilites. The Dunlop SP Sport A2 has been getting great reviews and if it were my car I'd have it rated #1.
The Yoko Avid Touring is a fine tire for minivans and is a great value. Although it's personality doesn't fit the Maxima well (neither does the Regatta) it'll work fine on your car. If you want to stick with Yokohama I'd suggest the Avid H4 or V4.
Another good tire is the Pirelli P6000 Sport Veloce (SV). Great handling tire but gets a bit noisy as it wears. But I don't know that it's any noisier than the others above. The personality of the Pirelli also fits your Maxima well.
Here's a terrific link to Tire Rack tech area which will explain all the markings on tires. I suggest spending some time reading thru all the links on the right hand side (in blue):
In a nutshell, the Symmetry is Michelin's "luxury" tire. it's designed to provide a smooth, quiet ride. It's OE on the Lincoln Town Car and Mercury Grand Marquis, which will give you an idea of it's target market.
The X-One does most things well. It'll provide better 4-season traction at the expense of quietness. It also has a longer treadlife warranty. For a minivan it's almost an ideal tire unless you are an aggressive driver. Also the X-One ain't cheap so it's not for the "light of wallet" types.
Another option to consider is the Michelin X Radial Plus, which are the same tire as the X-One, but sold through discount clubs like Costco. Depending on what deals the tire dealers are offering, it may save you some money going this route. I've had them on my 99 Odyssey EX for a few months now and have been very happy with winter traction as well as ride/quiet on dry pavement when compared to the OEM Firestones. By the way, I needed to replace the Firestones after about 67,000 km, which is about 42,000 miles.
Down here in South Florida, those tires are sold at Tire Kingdom and I see them everywhere. The few people that I've talked to all had positive things to say about them also. I got Dayton tires for my car and Semperit's for the wifes car and am also very happy with them both.
A local tire shop sells them, and told me they're a Bridgestone tire. I contacted Bridgestone, and they said that they were equivalent to the Firestone Firehawk SS20. The main question I have is that the Intimidators are H rated, with an AA A 420 UTQG and the SS20s are S and T rated with an A B 500 UTQG. The Firehawk SS20 is rated pretty good on tire rack, so is it a safe assumption that the Intimidator would have as good or better performance with a little shorter life span? Thanks, Ken
http://www.bridgestone-usa.com/warranty/warr6.htm If you scroll down this webpage this shows treadlife warranties for all the tire brands sold by Bridgestone-Firestone. I gotta say I didn't know all these brands were under their banner so it makes for interesting reading.
I put four of these tires on my Mercedes E320 last fall as a result of all the hype about them being not only super quiet but also great in rain and decent on snow. For the first few thousand miles they were very quiet and excellent at highway speeds in the rain. I now have about 12,000 miles on them and wish I had never bought them. They have become VERY noisy. They are noiser than the M&S tires on my pickup truck by a big margin. It sounds and feels like I have snow tires on the Mercedes. At speeds of 30-40 the noise is overpowering. In slow speed turns, 15-20 miles per hour, I can actually feel notchiness in the steering wheel like I do when I have real snows mounted on the car.
I've also noticed a tendency for them to try to climb the sides of the truck ruts in soft asphalt roads. This causes a lot of small steering corrections. Very disconcerting when you're trying to maintain highway speeds of 60-70..
Yokohama doesn't make the exact OEM size for this car so I went one width wider and from 55 to 50 profile on the Tire Rack recommendation. Could it be that the wider tread is causing the problems I'm seeing on this car?
At this moment, I'd probably not buy these tires again.
Last fall we HAD to get rid of Bridgestone OEM tires on our 2001 Forester. These Duelers were well worn at 25K (lines showing clearly), and were unsafe on ice, on snow, on slush, in cold heavy rain from the first few miles. Period. I was looking for a true all-season tire for New England conditions and high speed interstate driving for the AWD Forester. Needs: especially for snow/ice/slush on rural roads year-round. Best would have been a true snow, but I did not want the changing and expense of a 2 year life on most snows. We do have Nokians on the Honda FWD for winter use only. From USER EXPEIENCE, real world anecdotes from owners, and dealer recommendations we chose the Michelin Symmetry. It is recommended for snow use OVER the X One (Radial Plus). After a run down to Savannah and Knoxville from northern Maine last month, the Symmetries have proven their worth in all conditions. Wear remains to be seen, but the dealer says that his customers can expect 50K for real wear mileage (warranty is for 60K). A bonus for me is the quiet ride on southern bare roads like the NJ Turnpike.
The factory size for the Odyssey is 215/65R16. You may use the 225/60R16 and will notice slight differences in handling and appearance. The 225 is a very popular size and will provide a large number of choices. When changing tire sizes, always check to see that the revolutions per mile in the tire manufacturer's specfications are as close to original as possible, and that there are no problems with tire clearance at all suspension components.
Where are you in northern Maine? I live in Kittery and commute to Mass every day.
I bought Goodyear Aquatread IIIs for my 2000 Bonneville at Christmas and have been very happy with them so far. I was interested in those Michelins you bought too. Tirerack had commented that these have a bit of a hum at 80 mph and I have heard it if the road is wet but that's not a good time to going 80 anyway!
Ken. No hum around 75 to 80 on either dry or wet roads on our "southern" trip last month. We live on the coast near Ellsworth. Remember, we have a Forester. It is not a Bonneville by a long shot (in fact, real long), but is comfortable cruising in the mid-70's IF the road is safe. Some gamble on wear however: the warranty is 65K and a true tread life of around 50K is expected. We were looking for snow/ice/slush performance in an all-season. Comfortable and quiet also. Good luck.
I have been looking at the michelin x ones at costco and you cant help but see the kirkland signature tires sitting beside them for about 30% less installed price. I understand that Kirkland tires are made by michelin for costco. does anyone have experience with them. My intended use would be for replacing michelin symmetries on my odyssey.
I have 32K on my symmetrys. They have worn very evenly, but they are down to about 3mm or less of tread and I am going to snow country for a while in a week or so and It does not seem smart to do that with tires that are marginal. I would keep them if I knew it would be dry, but with family in the van can't afford not to change them. "There is so much riding on your tires" as the slogan goes.
Thanks. Had no idea that they wear so quickly. The warranty is 65K and the dealer and users experience (Tirerack) said that 50K is a reasonable life. BTW: the Tirerack evals and ratings are not a bad guide. I was also looking at the BFG T/A for all-season snow effectiveness.
caperosier: Were the Stones you were having problems with Dueler HTs, Dueler HLs or some other style?
The reason I ask is because I've heard some negative feedback on Duelers but not on HLs, which I have----and swear by. The HLs are supposedly their "new" technology and for the first 5,000 miles they have been great.
Does anybody have experience with Uniroyal AquaGrip tires?
I emailed tirerack.com and they haven't heard of them. There is little info about them on the web other than at uniroyal. They appear to be an all-season tire with a little more attention toward wet. at $76 a tire they seem a good bargin for 80K tire. (includes isntall, valves and tire disposal, and life time balance/rotate)
I'm thinking of putting them on a Plymouth Voyager to replace the Goodyear conquests.
The Subaru Forester usually comes with a Yokohama or a Bridgestone tire (those Japanese companies stick together . Sometimes it seems that neither brand performs well in the snow. And the Forester uses an oddball size, 215/60-16, which is very very hard to find replacements. If 225/60-16's fit (gotta be careful) then you have lots of choices for tires.
I don't think Subaru's choice of OE tire reflects on the entire Bridgestone line. I think the Dueler HL is a great tire and most everyone will be happy with it. The Forester may be one of those vehicles that is sensitive to tire design and performance. I don't know the whole story but it is clear to me that Forester owners are not happy with Subaru's OE tire selections. Probably more Subaru's fault than the tire mfr. Seems that most of the negative comments come from owners living in snow country, which is probably where most Foresters are sold.
50K on a Michelin Symmetry is pretty darned good. But I'm thinking mileage will be less on a heavier vehicle. That's one reason why it is so hard to accurately equate tire performance. Vehicle's are different, road conditions are different, weather conditions are different, driving styles are different, owner maintenance habits are different. I mean, how many vehicle owners own a decent tire gauge, let alone use it regularly?
WORST: Bridgestone Potenza RE92. First set came standard on a 1992 Mazda Protege LX. At 28,000 miles I hydroplaned (at only 45 mph) and totaled the car. Now I own a 2000 Mazda Protege ES and the same damned tires came standard on this car. At about 20,000 miles (yes, regular rotations, car's in alignment, etc.) they started hydroplaning badly. Just got rid of them and, after much research (tirerack.com helped big time), purchased:
BEST: Dunlop SP Sport A2. Traction rated AA -- highest you can get. But still a very respectable treadwear rating of 420. ("Poortenzas" were 160.) Got 'em at TireRack for $87 apiece. HR rated. These things stick to the pavement like glue -- outperforming the Poortenzas which were VR rated. They did well the other day when I blew a Cavalier Z24 off the road at 105 mph. Yes, in a Protege.
Check out those Dunlops. They're the new replacement for the venerable D60 A2. I love these tires!
1.On the Subaru choice of OEM Forester tire. BOTH the L and S models have Tires that are objectively rated poor (i.e. unsafe) on snow): Consumer Reports as well as owner reports for both Yokohama Geolander and Bridgestone Dueler HL. 2. Most of the Subaru market is "snow country" which according to meterologists includes most of North America. The UK and Ireland have almost no trace of snowfall. Where is "AE UNK" ? 3. Subaru or Fuji Heavy Indusry owes the consumer a disclosure that their OEM tires are unsafe in snow, on slush, or a mix. This is their primary market and why any consumer buys AWD. The marketing choice was made for ride and comfort according to SOA, not for snow use. Consumers will then have choice to buy or not and to negotiate for a safe all-season tire. 4. Most drivers we know DO use tire gauges..often.
One thing everyone should keep in mind is that all-season tires are a comprimise and will never perform well in snow or ice. Optimizing tire choice for these conditions will result in poor wet and dry performance. If you drive in the snow often, you need dedicated winter tires regardless of your drivetrain choice.
When Subaru, or any manufacturer, chooses a tire, they need to balance the characteristics of the vehicle as well as cost. While Subarus are popular in snow country, it is not their exclusive market. Did you know that the largest volume Subaru dealers reside not in the Northeast, but here in sunny California? Given the diverse market they serve, it makes no sense to fit all their vehicles with tires that are optimized for 1/4 of the year. Mass customization hasn't been implemented with automobiles yet. I'd rather choose how I spend money on tires than the car company.
Also, keep in mind that Consumer Reports tested a different version of the Geolandars. The Forester S gets H-rated model G035s with a different tread pattern than the Y816 used for the test.
I've driven with my Geolandars in light/medium snow and I find them acceptable for an all-season H-rated tire. Other owners have used their Duelers in similar conditions without problems. I think part of the issue comes from people who do not realize the limits of AWD/4WD in the snow. Even with AWD, you still need to drive carefully in snowy conditions.
Ken: The OEM Forester tires are not just rated "not for snow" but poor, unsafe, not for use. To tell the majority of consumers to "drive carefully in snow" when Calif drivers have little if any winter driving experience is silly. My winter driving time in California was some short routes over passes where chains are required for only 5 to 10 miles only. Where in California is there "light to medium snow" other than passes? We use this forum to make consumers aware of real world experiences that we have. i.e. : That the tires that come with a new Forester are NOT for snow, slush,cold rain that most of us experience during about 1/3 of the year in most of North America. Is it so difficult for an AWD firm to allow consumers to make their own decisions about the OEM tires before purchase? Why buy AWD if not for safety and traction under winter-like conditions? Don't blame the consumer.
Does anyone have any current opinions on the Goodyear Regatta 2? Need tires for my 1999 Honda Odyssey. I live in the South. No snow. Sam's Club sells it under a different name for $70 in my size. Michelin x-radial plus sells for $99. Hard to believe the x-radial is that much better. But maybe it is.
The Good Year Regatta 2 is #1 rated Standard Touring Tire on Tire Rack, followed by the Yokohama Avid Touring and then the Michelin X-One in that order. For the money, I feel the Yoko Avid Touring is the best choice, and have bought 2 sets to put on 2 different mini-vans. They are probably the best passenger tires I've driven on, and are definitely the smoothest and quietest I've had. For a 205/70-15 size I paid $42 each for the Yoko's plus shipping, which was about $30 for a set of 4. They are rated for 80,000 miles, and from what I've seen so far, they should go the distance. They're very good in rain, and I've never had them hydro-plane, and seem to be very good in snow and ice also, as I've never lost traction. All 3 are good choices, but I think the Michelins are over-priced. Ken
Thank you for replying to my post. Yokohama doesn't make a tire in my size. If they did I would buy them. TireRack.com has a lot of useful information as well as a lot of conflicting information. If you read the opinions on various tires someone will say a particular tire is quiet and someone else will say it's noisy. I agree that Michelin's are over-priced.
When I bought my Michelin X Ones I was also shopping for Goodyear Aquatread IIIs and while tirerack shows the Goodyears as being much cheaper, I found X Ones for under the tirerack price locally (under $80 USD) but all the Aquatread IIIs were going for more than the tirerack X One price (over $90 USD) which is much more than the Aquatread tirerack price. I'm in Canada so I can't realistically order tires from the US (if they even ship up here). You may find better deals around where you are.
Yes, exactly. California isn't snow country yet it's a big market for Subarus. That's my point. If you had to fit one tire to meet all the driving needs around the country, what would you do? Do you put on a tire that excels in snow while sacrificing wet and dry handling? Don't forget that Subaru also needs to factor in light off-roading duty for some it's tire choices as well.
I guess our disagreement stems from our expectations of an all-season tire. I'm from the Northeast and am quite familiar with driving in deep snow. I've driven on a range of all-season and dedicated winter tires. My real-world experiences with the OE Geolandars have been that they're acceptable for what they've been designed to do. They are by no means the best all-season tire in snow, but to call them poor and unsafe is an overstatement.
Tires are one piece of equipment where you can always do better with aftermarket choices because you can choose a model that fits your needs, not those of an enitre market. I guess I just don't place very high expectations with OE tires. For me, they're just generic tires to get you started and it's up to me to go out and find the right replacements for my needs.
If you read back you'll see that I've written about them a few times already but in general I really like them. They seem to have really good traction on dry and wet roads, and decent snow and ice traction as well during the few bad storms we've had this year (they do slide some on ice and snow but not badly). They are quiet and seem to give good ride comfort and handling if they are not overinflated; when inflated too much they get a bit noisy without any noticable improvement in handling; when underinflated they loose handling. The Durablack keeps them black even after you scuff curbs (they go a bit brown for a day but then go black again). I haven't owned them long enough to say how long they will last but so far I haven't noticed them wearing down.
Ken and SOA: These 2 tires were rated in Consumer Reports tests as "poor in snow". Users' experiences report similar results. Many all-season tires don't have unsafe/poor performance in snow, AND have reasonable performance in wet/dry conditions. This is no "understatement". Check consumer experiences e.g. Tirerack. Read the objective real world test results from Consumer Reports. Then read about consumer experiences with these two tires. There is a big difference between a tire that is a compromise for all season use and one that is definitely poor and unsafe in conditions that are experienced by most of the AWD market for Subaru. And it is not Donner Pass !
My experience in driving in snow with the Forester + Geolandars is based on 12" of deep stuff up in the backroads of the Sierras. I'd post pics, but Photopoint is still down. Again, my point is that I find them reasonable for an H-rated OE all-season tire. I guess your expectations for OE tires are quite high.
One more time: The Geolandars tested by Consumer Reports are the Y816 S-Rated model. The Forester comes with the G035 H-rated model with a different tread pattern. The two are not the same tire. Don't believe me? Check CR and Tire Rack.
Firehawk SH-30 is absolutely outstanding on wet roads, in rain, etc. Especially on winding roads, when turning, etc. Practically the same as on dry pavement.
On snow the tires are good, but nothing outstanding. On my way to work (about 6 miles in one direction) ABS usually engaged one time per trip in snow. The same as with Goodyear LS on my other car.
I mean the previous winter, when there was a lot of snow. CT is a hilly place, though.
I also managed once to spin the wheels from stop when a light ice was developing. The Malibu engine, 3.1l V-6, is not very strong.
Even when slipping, the tires hold direction. The lateral grip is absolutely outstanding with longitudinal very good "only".
Also, the tires on my car, 215-60/R15, or 65/R15, do not remember exactly, are wide, and this is not good for snow.
How 8" of ground clearance allows "playing around" in 12" of snow? Both Forester L and S need good all-season tires that are NOT poor in snow. Period. Most AWD buyers need tires that work year-round to work, to shop, to kids, to trips....not just a day of "play in the Sierras". Consumers also need to know before buying, exactly what they are purchasing. The OEM Forester tires are not useful in winter conditions for most of North America. Sierra snow is dry, is light. Most of us do not have that in our regions: snow comes wet, heavy, as slush, as ice, and in mixtures of all of the above. We need a product that is effective in daily life....and safe. So, that is what this consumer did: bought tires that perform. And: told you about my experiences. Too much of an enthusiast to accept honesty? Well, we don't buy for love.
Has anyone had any experience with LeMans HR low profile tires? There was a real good deal on some 225/60HR15s at Expert Tire this weekend, and I got a set of 4 for $171 which included mounting, balancing, and new valve stems. Figuring about $12 per tire for mounting, balancing, and valve stems, my actual price per tire was less than $31, which is pretty good for an H rated low profile tire. LeMans, like Road King, Triumph and several other brands, is made by Bridgestone. The tires have a real attractive tread pattern that looks like it would be excellent for wet traction and hydroplaning resistance, and their UTQG is A A 360. They look awesome on my 40 Plymouth hot rod. Sunday was the last day for the sale, so I didn't have any time to research them as that's when I found out about the sale. I can't find any other information on the internet about them, so would apprecriate any experience anyone has had with them. Thanks, Ken
Sure, you can clear 12" of snow if you can plow through it with your bumper and skid plate.
Sierra snow is actually quite damp and heavy. Have you really been out here?
No one is refuting your claim and experiences that the OE tires and not great for those who need to drive a lot in snow or ice. I also agree to your decision that you went out and bought tires optimized for your application. That's the smart thing to do. I sincerely applaud your proactiveness.
Where I am disagreeing with you is your original points of: -Most of the Subaru market is "snow country" Wrong. Subarus are very popular in areas of mild winters. The mid-Atlantic states, California and the Pacific NW come to mind. Also, "snow country" is a subjective term. Are you in snow country if it usually snows a few inches and melts right away?
- Subaru or Fuji Heavy Industry owes the consumer a disclosure that their OEM tires are unsafe in snow, on slush, or a mix Disagree. This statement would make sense if Subaru sold EXCLUSIVELY into areas with heavy snowfall that requires dedicated winter tires using the current Geolandars and Duelers. They don't. Tires don't make cars unsafe. It's people not understanding the equipment and limits given the road conditions that do. The M+S; rating on a tire is simply a design standard (not a test or guarantee) for light snow.
-Both Forester L and S need good all-season tires that are NOT poor in snow Sure, I'd love one tire that excels at everything, but at what cost? Snow and summer performance criteria are polar opposites. That's exactly why all-season tires are a compromise, at best. A snow tire in the summer heat doesn't do very well. And yes, there are all-season tires out there that do everything a little better, but they generally cost more. I would much rather keep my money and spend it on tires that meet my particular needs than to give that choice to the car company, wouldn't you?
Here's a thought -- how about if cars were sold without tires and the buyer chose them on the spot? ;-)
Anyway, I think we've beaten this one into the ground (or snow?).
So, what tires did you find were best for your application?
Comments
1. Yokohama Avid Touring (low cost)
2. Dunlop SP Sport A2 (sporty-won't last as long)
3. Goodyear Regatta 2 (darkhourse)
Which one should I choose and why? Any I should eliminate? Why?
Thanks,
CCCJPM
At $42/each on tire rack you can't beat the price, and I think they're the number 1 rated standard touring tire on tire rack too. Why spend more money if you don't need to?
I have heard recommendations for both, however, on Michelin's site, they seem to give the X One a much higher rating in all categories
The local dealers have told me that the Symmetry is a softer ride.
Also,Local pricing for these tires would be good to know as well.
I live on Long Island in NY.
Thanks
Clarence2
215/65 R16
Can someone explain each piece as well as what my options are on replacement with the 16" Wheel?
Can I take a 225/65 or 225/60? What is the difference?
Thanks
Clarence2
Again thanks for the info.
CCCJPM
215 is the width of the tire, in millimeters (mm).
65 is the aspect ratio, which is to say it is 65% as tall as it is wide -- high numbers are high-profile tires like on bicycles or my Geo Metro's 155/80R13 tires, while low numbers are low-profile tires like on sports cars.
The R means it is a radial tire, which applies to most passenger-car and van tires. Some truck and off-road tires might be otherwise but I don't pay much attention to those.
16 is the wheel diameter size in inches.
Go to any tire manufacturer's web site or tirerack, etc. and there is usually a tire selector which lets you input your vehicle type and year and it will suggest new tires for your stock rims. You usually want to keep the overall sidewall height the same or your speedometer and odometer will be off, etc. Some tires will be too wide or too skinny to fit on your rims, unless you want to splurge for new rims as well.
The Yoko Avid Touring is a fine tire for minivans and is a great value. Although it's personality doesn't fit the Maxima well (neither does the Regatta) it'll work fine on your car. If you want to stick with Yokohama I'd suggest the Avid H4 or V4.
Another good tire is the Pirelli P6000 Sport Veloce (SV). Great handling tire but gets a bit noisy as it wears. But I don't know that it's any noisier than the others above. The personality of the Pirelli also fits your Maxima well.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/sidewall.htm
The X-One does most things well. It'll provide better 4-season traction at the expense of quietness. It also has a longer treadlife warranty. For a minivan it's almost an ideal tire unless you are an aggressive driver. Also the X-One ain't cheap so it's not for the "light of wallet" types.
Thanks,
Ken
http://www.bridgestone-usa.com/warranty/warr4.htm
This will give you the warranty details for Road King brand.
http://www.bridgestone-usa.com/warranty/warr6.htm
If you scroll down this webpage this shows treadlife warranties for all the tire brands sold by Bridgestone-Firestone. I gotta say I didn't know all these brands were under their banner so it makes for interesting reading.
Thank you.
I've also noticed a tendency for them to try to climb the sides of the truck ruts in soft asphalt roads. This causes a lot of small steering corrections. Very disconcerting when you're trying to maintain highway speeds of 60-70..
Yokohama doesn't make the exact OEM size for this car so I went one width wider and from 55 to 50 profile on the Tire Rack recommendation. Could it be that the wider tread is causing the problems I'm seeing on this car?
At this moment, I'd probably not buy these tires again.
I was looking for a true all-season tire for New England conditions and high speed interstate driving for the AWD Forester. Needs: especially for snow/ice/slush on rural roads year-round. Best would have been a true snow, but I did not want the changing and expense of a 2 year life on most snows. We do have Nokians on the Honda FWD for winter use only.
From USER EXPEIENCE, real world anecdotes from owners, and dealer recommendations we chose the Michelin Symmetry. It is recommended for snow use OVER the X One (Radial Plus).
After a run down to Savannah and Knoxville from northern Maine last month, the Symmetries have proven their worth in all conditions.
Wear remains to be seen, but the dealer says that his customers can expect 50K for real wear mileage (warranty is for 60K).
A bonus for me is the quiet ride on southern bare roads like the NJ Turnpike.
The factory size for the Odyssey is 215/65R16. You may use the 225/60R16 and will notice slight differences in handling and appearance. The 225 is a very popular size and will provide a large number of choices. When changing tire sizes, always check to see that the revolutions per mile in the tire manufacturer's specfications are as close to original as possible, and that there are no problems with tire clearance at all suspension components.
Hope this helps!
I bought Goodyear Aquatread IIIs for my 2000 Bonneville at Christmas and have been very happy with them so far. I was interested in those Michelins you bought too. Tirerack had commented that these have a bit of a hum at 80 mph and I have heard it if the road is wet but that's not a good time to going 80 anyway!
Good luck with the Symmetries.
Ken
Remember, we have a Forester. It is not a Bonneville by a long shot (in fact, real long), but is comfortable cruising in the mid-70's IF the road is safe.
Some gamble on wear however: the warranty is 65K and a true tread life of around 50K is expected.
We were looking for snow/ice/slush performance in an all-season. Comfortable and quiet also.
Good luck.
Thanks.
BTW: the Tirerack evals and ratings are not a bad guide. I was also looking at the BFG T/A for all-season snow effectiveness.
Once you drive on snow with snow tires you can't go back. Make sure you get seperate rims to make changing out easier.
The reason I ask is because I've heard some negative feedback on Duelers but not on HLs, which I have----and swear by. The HLs are supposedly their "new" technology and for the first 5,000 miles they have been great.
Just a quick sanity check. Thanks.
I emailed tirerack.com and they haven't heard of them. There is little info about them on the web other than at uniroyal. They appear to be an all-season tire with a little more attention toward wet.
at $76 a tire they seem a good bargin for 80K tire. (includes isntall, valves and tire disposal, and life time balance/rotate)
I'm thinking of putting them on a Plymouth Voyager to replace the Goodyear conquests.
I don't think Subaru's choice of OE tire reflects on the entire Bridgestone line. I think the Dueler HL is a great tire and most everyone will be happy with it. The Forester may be one of those vehicles that is sensitive to tire design and performance. I don't know the whole story but it is clear to me that Forester owners are not happy with Subaru's OE tire selections. Probably more Subaru's fault than the tire mfr. Seems that most of the negative comments come from owners living in snow country, which is probably where most Foresters are sold.
50K on a Michelin Symmetry is pretty darned good. But I'm thinking mileage will be less on a heavier vehicle. That's one reason why it is so hard to accurately equate tire performance. Vehicle's are different, road conditions are different, weather conditions are different, driving styles are different, owner maintenance habits are different. I mean, how many vehicle owners own a decent tire gauge, let alone use it regularly?
BEST: Dunlop SP Sport A2. Traction rated AA -- highest you can get. But still a very respectable treadwear rating of 420. ("Poortenzas" were 160.) Got 'em at TireRack for $87 apiece. HR rated. These things stick to the pavement like glue -- outperforming the Poortenzas which were VR rated. They did well the other day when I blew a Cavalier Z24 off the road at 105 mph. Yes, in a Protege.
Check out those Dunlops. They're the new replacement for the venerable D60 A2. I love these tires!
Meade in Virginia
What about maybe 205/65R series tires?
2. Most of the Subaru market is "snow country" which according to meterologists includes most of North America. The UK and Ireland have almost no trace of snowfall. Where is "AE UNK" ?
3. Subaru or Fuji Heavy Indusry owes the consumer a disclosure that their OEM tires are unsafe in snow, on slush, or a mix. This is their primary
market and why any consumer buys AWD. The marketing choice was made for ride and comfort according to SOA, not for snow use. Consumers will then have choice to buy or not and to negotiate for a safe all-season tire.
4. Most drivers we know DO use tire gauges..often.
When Subaru, or any manufacturer, chooses a tire, they need to balance the characteristics of the vehicle as well as cost. While Subarus are popular in snow country, it is not their exclusive market. Did you know that the largest volume Subaru dealers reside not in the Northeast, but here in sunny California? Given the diverse market they serve, it makes no sense to fit all their vehicles with tires that are optimized for 1/4 of the year. Mass customization hasn't been implemented with automobiles yet. I'd rather choose how I spend money on tires than the car company.
Also, keep in mind that Consumer Reports tested a different version of the Geolandars. The Forester S gets H-rated model G035s with a different tread pattern than the Y816 used for the test.
I've driven with my Geolandars in light/medium snow and I find them acceptable for an all-season H-rated tire. Other owners have used their Duelers in similar conditions without problems. I think part of the issue comes from people who do not realize the limits of AWD/4WD in the snow. Even with AWD, you still need to drive carefully in snowy conditions.
Ken
The OEM Forester tires are not just rated "not for snow" but poor, unsafe, not for use. To tell the majority of consumers to "drive carefully in snow" when Calif drivers have little if any winter driving experience is silly. My winter driving time in California was some short routes over passes where chains are required for only 5 to 10 miles only. Where in California is there "light to medium snow" other than passes?
We use this forum to make consumers aware of real world experiences that we have. i.e. : That the tires that come with a new Forester are NOT for snow, slush,cold rain that most of us experience during about 1/3 of the year in most of North America.
Is it so difficult for an AWD firm to allow consumers to make their own decisions about the OEM tires before purchase? Why buy AWD if not for safety and traction under winter-like conditions?
Don't blame the consumer.
All 3 are good choices, but I think the Michelins are over-priced.
Ken
Thank you for replying to my post. Yokohama doesn't make a tire in my size. If they did I would buy them. TireRack.com has a lot of useful information as well as a lot of conflicting information. If you read the opinions on various tires someone will say a particular tire is quiet and someone else will say it's noisy. I agree that Michelin's are over-priced.
Yes, exactly. California isn't snow country yet it's a big market for Subarus. That's my point. If you had to fit one tire to meet all the driving needs around the country, what would you do? Do you put on a tire that excels in snow while sacrificing wet and dry handling? Don't forget that Subaru also needs to factor in light off-roading duty for some it's tire choices as well.
I guess our disagreement stems from our expectations of an all-season tire. I'm from the Northeast and am quite familiar with driving in deep snow. I've driven on a range of all-season and dedicated winter tires. My real-world experiences with the OE Geolandars have been that they're acceptable for what they've been designed to do. They are by no means the best all-season tire in snow, but to call them poor and unsafe is an overstatement.
Tires are one piece of equipment where you can always do better with aftermarket choices because you can choose a model that fits your needs, not those of an enitre market. I guess I just don't place very high expectations with OE tires. For me, they're just generic tires to get you started and it's up to me to go out and find the right replacements for my needs.
Ken
How do you like the Michelin X Ones? I've also found that some of the prices locally are better than at TireRack.com.
These 2 tires were rated in Consumer Reports tests as "poor in snow". Users' experiences report similar results.
Many all-season tires don't have unsafe/poor performance in snow, AND have reasonable performance in wet/dry conditions. This is no "understatement".
Check consumer experiences e.g. Tirerack. Read the objective real world test results from Consumer Reports. Then read about consumer experiences with these two tires.
There is a big difference between a tire that is a compromise for all season use and one that is definitely poor and unsafe in conditions that are experienced by most of the AWD market for Subaru.
And it is not Donner Pass !
My experience in driving in snow with the Forester + Geolandars is based on 12" of deep stuff up in the backroads of the Sierras. I'd post pics, but Photopoint is still down. Again, my point is that I find them reasonable for an H-rated OE all-season tire. I guess your expectations for OE tires are quite high.
One more time: The Geolandars tested by Consumer Reports are the Y816 S-Rated model. The Forester comes with the G035 H-rated model with a different tread pattern. The two are not the same tire. Don't believe me? Check CR and Tire Rack.
Ken
On snow the tires are good, but nothing outstanding. On my way to work (about 6 miles in one direction) ABS usually engaged one time per trip in snow. The same as with Goodyear LS on my other car.
I mean the previous winter, when there was a lot of snow. CT is a hilly place, though.
I also managed once to spin the wheels from stop when a light ice was developing. The Malibu engine, 3.1l V-6, is not very strong.
Even when slipping, the tires hold direction. The lateral grip is absolutely outstanding with longitudinal very good "only".
Also, the tires on my car, 215-60/R15, or 65/R15, do not remember exactly, are wide, and this is not good for snow.
in 12" of snow?
Both Forester L and S need good all-season tires that are NOT poor in snow. Period. Most AWD buyers need tires that work year-round to work, to shop, to kids, to trips....not just a day of "play in the Sierras".
Consumers also need to know before buying, exactly what they are purchasing. The OEM Forester tires are not useful in winter conditions for most of North America. Sierra snow is dry, is light. Most of us do not have that in our regions: snow comes wet, heavy, as slush, as ice, and in mixtures of all of the above. We need a product that is effective in daily life....and safe.
So, that is what this consumer did: bought tires that perform. And: told you about my experiences.
Too much of an enthusiast to accept honesty? Well, we don't buy for love.
Thanks,
Ken
Sierra snow is actually quite damp and heavy. Have you really been out here?
No one is refuting your claim and experiences that the OE tires and not great for those who need to drive a lot in snow or ice. I also agree to your decision that you went out and bought tires optimized for your application. That's the smart thing to do. I sincerely applaud your proactiveness.
Where I am disagreeing with you is your original points of:
-Most of the Subaru market is "snow country"
Wrong. Subarus are very popular in areas of mild winters. The mid-Atlantic states, California and the Pacific NW come to mind. Also, "snow country" is a subjective term. Are you in snow country if it usually snows a few inches and melts right away?
- Subaru or Fuji Heavy Industry owes the consumer a disclosure that their OEM tires are unsafe in snow, on slush, or a mix
Disagree. This statement would make sense if Subaru sold EXCLUSIVELY into areas with heavy snowfall that requires dedicated winter tires using the current Geolandars and Duelers. They don't. Tires don't make cars unsafe. It's people not understanding the equipment and limits given the road conditions that do. The M+S; rating on a tire is simply a design standard (not a test or guarantee) for light snow.
-Both Forester L and S need good all-season tires that are NOT poor in snow
Sure, I'd love one tire that excels at everything, but at what cost? Snow and summer performance criteria are polar opposites. That's exactly why all-season tires are a compromise, at best. A snow tire in the summer heat doesn't do very well. And yes, there are all-season tires out there that do everything a little better, but they generally cost more. I would much rather keep my money and spend it on tires that meet my particular needs than to give that choice to the car company, wouldn't you?
Here's a thought -- how about if cars were sold without tires and the buyer chose them on the spot? ;-)
Anyway, I think we've beaten this one into the ground (or snow?).
So, what tires did you find were best for your application?
Ken