Tires, tires, tires

tntitan

I drive about 14,000 miles a year. About half of that is on the interstate at 75-80 MPH and the rest is around town. I am not concerned about cornerning ability. I am interested in quiet tires that are good in the rain that will get good mileage with proper care and inflation. My car came with Michelin MXV4 195/65 R15's and I don't really have any complaints. These tires have 27,000 miles and look like they will go another 10-15K. However, I am not a tire man and would appreciate any advice - especially from people in the know or anyone with an Accord that has been down this road.

mpowers3

OK, total newbie to the world of tires here...As I understand it, the "225" refers to the width of the tire, while the "60-16" and "50-17" refer to...the thickness of the tire and the diameter? (i.e. how much the tire extends beyond the wheel, and the wheel diameter.) So the 50-17 would be a thinner tire made for a larger wheel, and therefore would have the same overall diameter of wheel+tire as the 60-16. Right?

My next question is...what is the difference in terms of handling and tread wear between the 60-16 and the 50-17? My car (2001 Monte Carlo) currently has 60-16s on it, and I'm thinking of getting some new wheels that are 70-17.

mdaffron

... if you'll read this:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/sidewall.htm

And, if you're looking to change the size of the tires on your car, use this handy tool I found on the net (you guys are gonna love this):

http://www.paspeedo.com/calculator.htm

I used this second link quite a bit while looking to replace the Bridgestone Potenza RE92s that came stock on my 2000 Mazda Protege ES.

Plugging in those two tire sizes you're asking about, you'll find there's quite a difference -- about 3/4 inch in diameter and almost 2 mph at 60.

tntitan: You'd do well to do some research of customer comments at tirerack.com. I wound up purchasing a set of four Dunlop SP Sport A2s, which are more highly rated than the Michelins and cost less! I used tirerack.com and am completely satisfied with my purchase. The tires are everything I read they would be. And I even changed sizes, from 195/55/15s to 205/50/15s in the process.

Have fun shopping!

Meade

anonymous02

The best snow tires in the world don't do any good if they don't touch the ground. I had snow tires on my Civic which were awesome UNTIL I got sick during a blizzard and had to go to the drugstore. I made it there fine, but when I went out to leave, I was hung up on the deep snow.

regarding: "Plugging in those two tire sizes you're asking about, you'll find there's quite a difference -- about 3/4 inch in diameter and almost 2 mph at 60."

2 mph doesn't really matter as much when most people drive 10 to 20 mph over the limit anyhow! The 3/4 inch might be more important, though for clearance purposes.

tntitan

After reading up on it at your recommended site I must admit that the Dunlop AP Sport A2's look like the way to go. That is a lot of bang for the buck.

mdaffron

I've had mine on my car for about three weeks now. Last night we had a little emergency in the family and I had to take my 9-month-old son to the emergency room -- which is 15 miles away, most of it highway. Those tires got us there safely and in control, going (I don't want to admit this) 90 all the way.

Meade

wellphyt

Does anyone out there own the Goodyear Regatta 2?

supercru

I drive a Ford Supercrew 2WD pick-up, it is equipted with limited slip 3.55 ratio rear diff. and General Grabber AW tires in 255-70/R16. This truck is impossible to keep straight in an inch or two of fresh snow! I have lived in snow country all of my life and owned a half-dozen 2WD pick-ups with no problems. (I have had good luck with BF Goodrich T/A's) But on the highway this one "crabs" with the rear end out to the right, holding the wheel to the right in a constant skid. Forget about leaving a stop light on even the slightest grade, I leave a huge distance to the next car and continue in a slow roll, and great care must be used in a parking lot as again on an inch or two of snow it will "slew" towards the car next to me as I pull out of the parking spot. I love the truck on dry pavement, size, room, 19+MPG etc. But I am have to switch vehicle with my wife for any winter road trips as her 93 Aerostar 2wd (rear wheel drive) is sooo much better in the snow. Long story short could this be tires? (I am thinking about replacing the rear differential with an open diff.) Ideas? Thanks in advance for the help!

sbspence

You are right on track with the tire theory. Those particlar tires are horrid in the snow!

You can go with an All Terrain type tread which is a good "all around" tire, or throw a set of dedicated snow tires for the winter and keep the AWs for the highway/summer use.

If you decide to go all terrain get something with a lot of siping this helps tremendously in winter driving! BFG ATKOs, Yokohama Geolander ATs, Pirelli Scorpion ATs, Mickey Thompson MTX, Cooper Discoverer ATs, General Grabber(AT, ST, AP), Dunlop Radial Rovers, Goodyear ATS...to name a few good ones. There are tons...check out www.tirerack.com for a lot of great reading and some good tire prices. HTH!

heng

Obviously since the tires were confirmed as the culprit. But if you did change the diff, instead of slewing you would be going nowhere as you would just be spinning tires.

anonymous02

Isn't limited slip SUPPOSED TO HELP IN THE SNOW?

I was going to put a Powertraxx No Slip locker in my Wrangler this year for snow, but we never got any snow! I might do it in the Spring for off road use.

I think your best bet would be to pick up some real knobby snow tires or mud/snow tires (Wildcat comes to mind) or even some retread snows.

Good luck.

dielectric7bb

It's easier to get both rear tires spinning if they are connected through a LSD or locker. This could be really bad if on a hill or the like (with snow/ice) as kinetic friction is lower than static friction. That's why if you have an open diff you are less likely to spin your tires (well at least one or two) so you won't go sliding off the side of the road (sometimes)!

anonymous02

How come they sell lockers for people who live in snowy areas.

What you say goes contrary to everything I've read. I thought you want to put traction to as many tires as possible.

dielectric7bb

Static friction is higher than kinetic friction (generally a fact and it is for rubber on pavement/ice/snow). A tire that is rolling has it's friction limited by static friction. A tire that is spinning/slipping/locked-up has it's friction limited by kinetic friction. Since it is more difficult to get your wheels to spin if you have an open differential it is generally better in snow/ice. A locker and or LSD may get you going and may be better in some situations, but you still have to be careful.

They probably sell lockers for people who live in snowy areas because people generally don't understand basic physics and will buy almost anything!

I think the key here is to understand that traction is not limited by diffs but by rubber to ground contact.

steve234

but flawed, A limited slip is designed to apply motion to both wheels despite the fact that one may be slipping. You may have one wheel break lose, but you can still get going on the other. When a standard diff breaks loose, you got one spinning wheel and nothing else. All the power is being applied to the wheel that is spinning. With lsd, or any diff, you have to just take it easy. Most people get theirselves in trouble when they think that the can power out.

dielectric7bb

an open diff applies (theoretically without internal friction of gears in the diff) a 50/50 torque split. And even a wheel spinning on ice will give some power to the other wheel. The problem is when both wheels break traction and now you have minimal friction keeping you from going sideways (yikes). The problem is really slidding out of control.

Open-diffs and LSD's are better for snow and ice than lockers IMO. Whether or not an LSD is better than an open-diff I will leave up for each person to decide on there own

exzur

My yellow 2001 Pontiac Aztek GT AWD runs on 235/60-17 Goodyear LS tires. I would love to replace these tires with 245/55-17 BFGoodrich Scorcher T/A tires. Calculating the sizes using (www.paspeedo.com) pointed out by mdaffron. the BFGoodrich tire is 0.4 inch wider but 0.5 inch lower. Would the Scorcher T/A tires fit my Aztek with no problem? If not, Is there a way to make it fit?

Any help will be appreciated....

anonymous02

And we are supposed to believe one poster on the internet versus everything and everyone else we've heard because...?

dielectric7bb

http://www.howstuffworks.com/differential5.htm

anyways...get good tires and some chains and you won't have to worry about your diffs

microrepair

My own personal experience as well as a thorough reading of the entire article referenced above indicates that with a standard (open) diff, once a wheel starts to spin the torque available to the other wheel is the same as what is on the spinning wheel. Since the spinning wheel is actually absorbing virtually no torque, the wheel with traction gets the same amount; almost nothing. Whereas, a LSD diff will LIMIT the amount of spin on the wheel with no traction and thereby allow the wheel with traction to apply a measurable amount of torque to the ground. The LSD diff, by limiting the spin, actually creates the illusion of torque being applied to the spinning wheel, thereby providing usable torque to the wheel with traction.

dielectric7bb

but this is not always a good thing on ice as if you can apply more torque to the other wheel, the other wheel can also then break lose and spin. This can lead to some disasterous situations. On ice an auto-locker is your worst enemy IMO. Like I said before though I will leave it up to individuals to figure out what is best for them (an open or an LSD diff).

supercru

Well it sounds like we are going to get some more snow on Friday/Saturday. So, I took the truck to Tires Plus to get the tires siped. (See post #1207) We'll see if it helps. Seemed better today in an inch of new snow! (I had to go to 5 stores before finding one that had a working siping machine!)

steve234

So you are saying that it is more disasterous to have traction on ice than no traction? You must have great political aspirations. With any vehicle on ice caution is the word, but the main problem people have is stopping and not being able to resume motion. With a lsd, if you have one wheel on ice and the other not, you can resume motion. With some of the drivers I see, this could be more disasterous, but nothing stops those yahoos. An open differential only gives you traction when both wheels are not slipping. What I find humourous is the people that get AWD or 4wd without lsd. Without lsd all 4wd systems are only 2wd and some not even that.

dielectric7bb

goes bye bye when all of your wheels spin. So if you have an open diff (both wheels on ice) you're only going to spin one easily. That way the other tire still maintains lateral grip (turning or street is sloped to one side). Yes LSD's and lockers can get you going, but they can (CAN) be more dangerous than an open diff. Not everyone understands this, and lockers are just wrong on ice.

And sure if one wheel is on ice and one is on pavement, that's just great to have an LSD or locker. I just think that turning on snow/ice happens more than one wheel on ice and one on pavement. It's a bigger concern, and not many people understand basic vehicle dynamics.

anonymous02

I have a friend who has a 2wd Ford Ranger. He said if we ever get a real winter and his tires are not up to it, he is just going to pull the diff and have the axles welded together. Full time locked driving. The only drawback is a little more tire wear, but if you just buy cheapo snow tires and discount summer tires, who cares? You get good snow traction in winter, and good hookup in summer months.

dielectric7bb

hahaha

I hope you can explain to your friend why full time locked is not good!!! on ice and on pavement!!!

anonymous02

Both tires spin with the engine no matter what. That sounds like pretty good hill climbing traction to me. Almost the definition of traction. (almost)

stangelj

Just don't hit the gas going around a slippery corner with rwd limited slip or you'll know the meaning of doing a 360. Nothing like both back tires breaking traction at once...

dielectric7bb

now that's what I've been talking about, glad somebody else understands physics.

heng

When the back end starts going side ways you can end up swapping ends anyway. (long time rear wheel driver)

dielectric7bb

Of course, but which one is easier to get sideways?

Open
LSD
Locker

supercru

Well, so for so good. We had a sleet/freezing rain/snow mix last night and I drove this morning with MUCH improved traction! The siping has made a big difference, even in lateral stability.

heng

locker - but it is not much harder to get an open diff sideways on slick roadways. At least the driver who has the diff locked should be expecting the rear to wag.

But then the conditions where you have the diff locked, it becomes a choice of making headway with some tail wag or just sitting in the road going nowhere.

A previous statement that an open diff provides some torque to the non-slipping tire is an academic exercise (not reality) since I've seen many pickup trucks sitting perfectly still on flat ice covered roadways smoking one rear tire.

browns

i have michelin x-1 and have 40,000 on these tires. i have been noticing a cluck cluck type sound from the front from speeds of 45 mph and increase with speed. i ahve no vibration at all. have about 6/32nds left on tires. have rotated same side every 6,000 miles. i also notice that the tires will make a howling sound over some pavements at around 65 mph. do tires normally get louder as they wear. i have checked the cv joints and they seem fine. what sound would bad wheel bearings make. i plan on rotating in a few days to see if the sounds goes to the rear. i run 35 psi front and back.

bretfraz

Yes, tires usually get noisier as they wear. As the tread wears it exposes a harder rubber compound. Many tires are designed this way. The downside is that as the tread wears, tire performance decreases. Braking distances get longer, wet traction drops, steering response drops, the basic overall performance of the tire is reduced eventhough there is still visible tread left. After thousands of miles your tires have been heat cycled many times which hardens the tires even more, making the above problems worse. I know most tire buyers want to get every last mile out of their tires but, frankly, when a tire is more than 50% worn, most of its effectiveness is gone. It'll still do the basic job but isn't peforming anywhere near what it did when new.

As for the "cluck-cluck" sound, it's clear to me that you have a chicken stuck in your front suspension. Better get him outta there.

anonymous02

Then I don't understand why people shave their tires for racing.

???

bretfraz

The kind of tire performance racers want is almost the opposite of what normal folks with street cars need.

Shaving tires reduces tread squirm, which is when the rubber tread blocks shift during hard cornering, making the car's handling less stable and consistent.

With street cars, you need deep grooves to disperse water, many tread edges so a tire can bite into dirt and snow, and a soft tread compound to provide high grip for braking and steering as well as provide a quiet smooth ride. Most of what I just described are unimportant in racing.

firstaccord

I have a 2000 Accord with 17" rims. What's a good tire that doesn't produce a lot of road noise and is good for all seasons? (I live in Iowa.) Handling is important as is wet pavement traction. Thanks.

hpulley4

In road tires that wear quickly, like many performance tires with soft rubber compounds, you can actually get better dry traction from tires with less tread, rather than more, as you get more rubber on the road and less empty space plus less tread squirm, etc. Wet and snow/ice performance will of course suffer.

With long lasting tires, however, by the time you reach a sufficiently low tread depth that should give you better dry traction, the rubber compound will be so hard that it will give you terrible traction under all conditions.

Some places will sipe old tires for you which can help some snow/ice traction but without a good sticky compound you can't do anything to improve dry traction.

Deep grooves in tires help to reduce hydroplaning. A properly inflated tire at reasonable speeds will remain in contact with the road when going through a puddle of less depth than its tread depth. Some tread patterns are designed to evacuate water so as to reduce hydroplaning in water that is deeper than the remaining tread depth and/or while traveling at a speed which doesn't allow water to get out of the way fast enough just from the weight of the vehicle.

anonymous02

http://www.onboardair.com

anonymous02

"Shaving tires reduces tread squirm, which is when the rubber tread blocks shift during hard cornering, making the car's handling less stable and consistent."

Sounds like something desirable to me.

"With street cars, you need deep grooves to disperse water..."

or just drive slower in the rain

"..., many tread edges so a tire can bite into dirt and snow..."

I have snow tires for that.

"..., and a soft tread compound to provide high grip for braking and steering as well as provide a quiet smooth ride. Most of what I just described are unimportant in racing."


Don't the people who shave their tires desire those traits?

anonymous02

"I have a 2000 Accord with 17" rims. What's a good tire that doesn't produce a lot of road noise and is good for all seasons? (I live in Iowa.) Handling is important as is wet pavement traction."

How about a good 15" tire?

anonymous02

Tire Pressure: What Works, What Doesn't and Why - I've seen a whole lot of questions on OFF-ROAD.COM about what kinds of tire pressures should be run for off-road use......

http://www.off-road.com/ford/tech/pressure.html

Jocko

I have a 1999 JGC Limited with the V8 engine. The original tire size is 245-70R-16. The tire is a Goodyear Eagle LS. I have 53,000+ miles on them with some tread left. Anyone have any suggestions for replacement tires? Goodyears are running about 130.00 per tire plus all the extras etc. I have been quite pleased with the OEM tires, but would be open to input from you all out there. I live in Florida, no snow, but often heavy rain.

Thanks

ruking1

#1243

Michelins for sure!!

bretfraz

The Eagle LS is a luxury touring tire made primarily for cars but adapted frequently to SUV's and light trucks. If you like them then consider sticking with them.

Some other fairly similar tires would be the Michelin Cross-Terrain, Bridgestone Dueler H/L, and the new Goodyear Fortera HL. All compete directly for the SUV/light truck owner who wants a smooth ride and good handling from a light truck tire.

In car tires the direct competitors to the Eagle LS are the Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus, Bridgestone Turanza Revo, Yokohama Avid, and a few others. Your challenge is going to be finding a tire comparable to the Eagle LS in that 245/70-16 size. That's a truck size and very few car tires are made in that size. So you may be forced into a truck tire like I described above simply by a lack of choices.

BTW, that Eagle LS in your size is only $82 each at Tire Rack. http://www.tirerack.com

popkwizz

After using Yokohamas on my 3 series BMWs the past 6 years, I decided to put some Avid Hs on my 'new' '86 MB 300E, replacing the noisy, floaty Michs. Less drag, more grip, low road noise, better tire. $350 OTD and on the car for the set (195/65/15) here in the SF Bay Area.

gambiaman

Anybody know anything about Toyo tires. Thinking of buying a ES 300 which comes with Toyo tires with a tread wear rating of only 200. Looked for them on Tirerack and they weren't even listed.
thanks

popkwizz

lee1nyc

I just put these Dunlop's on my '98 Intrepid ES. They received a very high rating/review from tirerack.com users.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/dunlop/du_sp_a2.jsp

Do any of you have these tires? Any comments are welcome.

Lee