Tires, tires, tires

porknbeans

kyfdx, I don't think that if NASCAR is using it means that it has some real benefit. They also have a lot of stickers and only turn one direction, that doesn't make it beneficial (sorry, I really don't like the sport). More appropriately, the cars in that sport push 150-200mph for extended periods of time. Under those conditions, on the surfaces that they drive on, in the Southern locals that they usually drive, yes Nitrogen may keep their tires more consistently pressurized. To the average driver I can't imagine any benefit.

kyfdx

I'm not a fan either... But, if it maintains your tire pressure longer and during temperature changes (summer to winter), then for the majority of people (not you and I, of course), it will be a large benefit. My guess is 90% of people NEVER check their tire pressure. If it looks flat, they'll stop by the gas station and put air in it, but they probably don't own a gauge. The only time most people get the proper tire pressure is when they buy tires, or bring their car in for service to a decent mechanic.

If over 6 months, nitrogen only loses 3 PSI vs. air losing 6 PSI, then that will be a boon to the largely clueless driving population. For most of us here, I doubt it will matter.

regards,
kyfdx

(who is going out to check his tire pressure, right now)

driftracer

people will use ANY excuse not to maintain their vehicles, it seems, like the folks who swear by certain brands of oil because they can go 20,000 miles between changes (NOT ME, BUDDY!), I can understand the attraction for the benefit of not having to check your tires.

"Checking your tires", to me, is a lot more than just checking pressure - I feel across the tread to find defects, nails, bubles, etc; I look for dry rot; I look for cuts from curbs or rocks that might cause the tire to fail on my net weekend trip.

This whole process takes maybe 10 minutes once a week, or heck, look your tires over when the gas is pumping - what else do you have to to but stand there and watch the pump run and the money spin?

imidazol97

Did all NTBs close in your region or become a Sears Tire store 4 or so years ago? OR were there some left that became owned by Tire Kingdom?

all: Not to be anal about this, but does the store use a vacuum chamber to remove all air from the tire/rim volume before they pump in the nitrogen? Doubt it. So there's a normal mix of 78% N₂ and oxygen 18% or so and CO₂, along with the nitrogen put in.
Ain't gonna make a difference folks.

I'll have to check a handbook for temperature expansion coeffient for a mix of 78% nitrogen and 18% oxygen vs. 90% nitrogen and other gases that are probably in the tire when pressured (unless they evacuate the tire after installed on the rim, which would damage the tire and belts as it collapses against the rim... 8)

robr2

They were bought by TBC Corp which owns Tire Kingdom and Merchants Tire. I presume they will keep the NTB name as it is a nationanl chain whereas the other 2 stores are regional.

kyfdx

Tire Kingdom buying NTB just happened. We do some ancillary business with Tire Kingdom that brought it to my attention. I use an independent tire dealer, so I haven't really kept up on the situation otherwise.

regards,
kyfdx

EDIT: see post above.. If you talk about something long enough, someone will post that actually knows something.. LOL

imidazol97

I look at my tires each time I walk up to the car. Sometimes I see something shiny sticking out of the rubber. I've gone home and used pliers to pull out short nails or pieces of glass which might eventually have penetrated to cause a leak as they were pushed in during tire wear.

I have told others next to me at gas pumps that they have a nail in their tire because I look at their tires, mostly to see the brand and tread type.I like to rotate my own tires between visits to the tire place, just so I can roll them and look for nails/glass as I move them to new location on the car.

porknbeans

You obviously have spring on the mind or it's in the air! 2 months ago there was no way I was thinking about standing in -20 degree weather, checking tires while my tank filled up.

Honestly, it is a good idea and will admit that I probably don't pay enough attention to tire pressure and wear. I check once every 6-8 weeks, but certainly not weekly. Plus, cars/trucks now (mine included) have tire pressure sensors to remove the chore/guilt of not having to check it manually.

driftracer

I guess I'm obsessive after being in the tire business, as well as working part-time for a (really nice) towing company in Oregon where I saw lots of flats and blowouts (and curb deaths). I've been racing autocross since 1987, and tires are such an important part of that type of racing (any type, for that matter), it just lends to reason that I look at brand, size, fitment, condition, etc of everyone's tires.

robr2

At another website which I won't mention because they have forums (note to our host - they're no where as good as these so please don't send me the dreaded e-mail), they have a couple of missives regarding the use of nitrogen.

Because compressed air contains water vapor it expands at a less predictable rate than does nitrogen. For race cars, the predictability of expansion is important as differences in tire size has an extreme effect on handling.

For us mere mortals, they say the use of nitrogen is a waste unless you can steal it from work.

porknbeans

Like Keith mentioned above, I look at my tires everyday for wear and abnormalities, but don't do a physical check very often.

I just heard that there is a local autocross group here and I'm contemplating trying to figure out a way to get the wife to say OK.

I've been listening to Paisan blab about how much fun it is for too long.

Sorry, back to the topic on hand.

tidester

I'll have to check a handbook for temperature expansion coeffient...

Both N₂ and O₂ behave pretty much like ideal gases except at extreme pressure and temperature which are not even close to conditions in car/racer tires.

BTW, I just did a quick estimate and, if I did it correctly, the weight difference between tires filled with (dry) air vs. pure N₂ could be a few ounces. I don't think that would justify the expense for ordinary driving.

tidester, host

kyfdx

This tire dealer does it for free, if you get your tires there.. I wouldn't buy tires from them just for that, but there is no EXTRA cost for their customers.

regards,
kyfdx

driftracer

it's a total blast - I'm running three cars this year and will have my hands full and my weekends taken, but it's the best hobby a car guy can get into.

tidester

Howstuffworks says the reason for using N₂ is that it contains no moisture whereas compressed air does. Droplets of water in the compressed air will expand when heated and add significantly to the air pressure inside the tire.

This makes sense.

tidester, host

driftracer

also, for folks who feel compelled to check their air pressures at 10 below...nitrogen won't freeze the valve stem OPEN like regular, moisture-filled air will.

Of course, you could just skip the air check until you don't need a parka and big gloves!

imidazol97

When tires heat up, higher pressure is the result of the heating. The higher pressure reduces the flexing, reducing the heat. The tire reaches an equilibrium.

If a tire is slightly under inflated, driving at high speed causes more heat than normal inflation would have allowed, thus giving higher expansion and compensating partly for the underinflation.

IF water vapor in small typical amounts impacts tht response to higher heat due to lack of inflation, the water vapor helps compensate by a greater expansion factor for the same degree change. Water vapor is good therefore, not a bad factor...

capriracer

It is my understanding that water vapor still obeys the ideal gas law, so it doesn't matter if there is a lot or a little in the air chamber, - the pressure build up is the same.

Where I think water vapor becomes a problem is when the water condenses out into the tire and the water goes back and forth between liguid and gas.

robr2

So that explains the constant clunking in the winter.

imidazol97

You won't have that problem if you completely drain all the air from your tires during the winter on very cold days when the air is dry and then refill with that dry air. That water vapor amount will be minimal at 0 degrees outside temperature.

That's why air in the tires should be changed annually.

badgerfan

Changing the air in your tires every year? Gimme a break!

Do you use distilled air or just regular air? If you live in LA, make sure you filter the air to get out the pollutants!

driftracer

"fluffing your tires" - did I ever tell that story?

badgerfan

Haven't heard about fluffing your tires, but I can only imagine. Is it like fluffing your pillow? What do you do, try to rapidly increase and decrease tire pressure to get a pillow soft ride?

maxpower02

Bad enough I have to pay $.50 for the "privilege" of using the air at my local gas station. Anyway, I have a question! I want to install Michelin Pilot Sport A/S on my 03EXV6 Honda Sedan. I am getting Honda 17" rims, but the recommended tire is 215/50-17. The Pilot Sport A/S does not come in that size, but the next size up is 225/50-17. If I install these tires, will it affect my traction control, ERB or ABS? I don't want to screw anything up. Thanks!

driftracer

I ran a Super Shops store in Beaverton, OR before I was promoted to regional manager. We sold Michelin and BFG tires.

An older lady had retired and moved to Oregon, and dropped in after seeing our Michelin sign, wanting a rotation and balance. No problem, of course, and we had the job done in 25-30 minutes and I was writing her invoice, we were casually talking.

As I showed her the bill for $19.95 for a rotation and rebalance, she asked me, in kind of a disgusted tone, why I didn't have the guy "fluff" her tires. I told her I had no idea what she was talking about.

She explained that Bill, the Michelin store manager in California, where she'd done business for 20 years, always "fluffed" her tires.

I asked her to explain. She said a long time ago, Bill showed her the powdery residue inside a new tire. He explained that they have to break the seal on the tire, and put powder back into the tire, or it would lose its "fluff" and would rot from the inside.

She got this operation done every time she had her tires rotated. Bill charged her $40, but she understood that it was a very necessary thing.

Also, she "could pay for the rotation and balance with a check or credit card, but the tire fluffing had to be paid for in cash, because it went into a different account".

I explained to her that her buddy Bill was stealing from her, and in all my years around tires, no tire manufacturer had ever recommended powdering the inside of the tires (unless you're mounting tubes in racing slicks, but that doesn't count).

She was more angry with me, I think, than she was with Bill.

I wonder how many old folks this Bill guy was taking for $40 a whack - just think of his "take" if it was 2-3 people a day...

driftracer

the 225 will work fine, it's only about a 1/4" difference, and will fill your wheel well a little better (as much as an extra 1/4" can provide).

badgerfan

At least he wasn't completely lying. Bill was fluffing something, his wallet!

maxpower02-You can get around that $.50 charge by buying an inexpensive air compressor. I have had a Black and Decker 110V one for about ten years now. Not very expensive. Convenient in that I can use it whenever I want as often as I want and it has a built in tire pressure gauge and will not freeze up in winter like some of the gas station systems do in my climate. You can also get 12V ones to operate off your battery.

robr2

Well if Bill wasn't breaking the seal, the fluff wouldn't escape in the first place. What a schyster!!

driftracer

but where does the powder go??

maxpower - badger's right - I got a little compressor that I plug into my power outlet/ligter - cost me $20 at Wal-Mart. Outstanding for use at autocross events when you need to make a pressure adjustment.

robr2

"but where does the powder go??"

It's probably in the box they hand you at the Pearly Gates when you die with all the stuff you've lost over your life.

stever

Thanks for the reminder - it is about time for me to put the summer air in my tires.

The big box tire franchises out here (Big O; Les Schwab, etc.) will check your pressure for you for free.

my .50

Steve, Host

imidazol97

The air machines that charge that I've run into always say free to our customers. I just go inside and ask for them to turn it on for me. I've never had anyone refuse.

imidazol97

You're almost too late. You need to put in the air for summer when the humidity is very low, unless you're in Florida. This can only be done by picking a day like today north of M-D line, 20 degrees and very low humidity.

And have you bubbled the water in your radiator to freshen it up by removing smells, etc.?

kyfdx

Summer tires.. Anyone have experience with these? Looking to buy another set of wheels, and they come with these attached.. brand new.. Original equipment off a BMW 330i w/sport package.

Thoughts? thanks,
kyfdx

porknbeans

The fluff story reminds me of when I was a kid and my sister got her first car. Fall was rolling in and the weather was just starting to change. My dad calmly asked my sister if she had been taking care of her car to which she replied "yes". My dad then asked her if she had changed the air in her tires to winter air. My sister looked rather worried that she was missing some important requirement for basic car safety and sheepishly replied "no". My dad told her to run up to the local gas station/repair garage (I grew up in a town of 1500)and ask Larry to help her replace the air in her tires. Now you have to realize that my sister was, how do I put this nicely, rather difficult to grow up with because of a pension for emotional swings. Now being a parent with a daughter of my own I can imagine the frustration that at times it brought to my father. Anyways, back to the story, my sister went up to the gas station and came back about 10 minutes later to still find my dad and I laughing so hard we couldn't stand. My sister didn't say much, if anything, when she came home, but she sure was nice to be around for a couple of days.

Needless to say, growing up in my house was a never ending roll your eyes kind of a place. Afterall, how many of us get to grow up with the REAL Clark W. Griswald and the REAL cousin Eddy.

wtd44

In an emergency situation near closing time on a Saturday, I accepted a trade-in offer at a "big box tire store" to have four Dominator tires installed on a Mercury Villager suffering from a destroyed side wall. Some 7000 miles later, I continue to find that balancing them is a problem. The retailer's shop truly tries. Anyone have comments on this mystery brand? My excuse is that it was an emergency, and I'm stickin' to it! >:o]

driftracer

time in the Air Force and getting sent on a wild goose chase to find 10 yards of "flightline" or a couple of gallons of "prop wash".

stever

Here's a link. I've been told that tires made for use in Mexico are heavier duty than ones made for the US/Canada, since the roads are worse down there. That beefiness could explain the difficulty in balancing.

Well, that's a theory anyway - it was all hearsay :-) I gotta go buy 400 yards of shoreline and a quart of universal solvent now....

Steve, Host

wtd44

Many thanks for the most interesting site URL. It leaves me puzzled that Discount Tire sell these here, considering the site claims the brand is for export only!

bigfur

I was wondering if someone could tell me how many mph a speedo would be off if you upgraded from 14inch to 18inch tires. I know there is some weird math equation to figure it out i just dont recall it. Thanks for any help you can provide.

ruking1

http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Here is a link.

driftracer

not a problem at all - use the calculator link given you by ruking, and if you use the correct size tire, the difference should be minimal.

bigfur

Thanks alot i really do appreciate it.

bankeizen

I live in the Pacific NW where wet roads are very frequent. Had Goodyear Aquatreads on car just sold and they handled wet roads superbly. New vehicle is BMW X5 4.4i with Michelin MVX Plus. Are there any tires in this size that are geared especially for wet weather handling? Snow is so infrequent as to not be an issue and I drive almost exclusively on paved roads. Thanks.

grapevinetx

Well, Pirellis or Michelins might be a more classic choice for a BMW, but I would take a look at the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2, which is designed for wet handling and is a good value in this size / type at around $165. VR speed rated.

ruking1

You are welcome. It is truly a different feeling when you can at will compare different sized tires and aspect ratios to make an informed decision on the options you are considering.

bankeizen

Cost is not an important issue. I almost died in an auto ccident some time ago so am willing to pay for safety which is why I have the X5. and everything on the car goes through the tires.

bankeizen

Read about those tires. Thanks-- that was a superlative recommendation. Only drawback would be they would be terible in any kind of snow, which happens occassionally here.

edh

My suggestion instead of distilled air would be to use medical grade air - its probably cleaner and will not cause mold on the inside, a known problem in tires.

sequoiasoon

I think we all presumed that "Snow is so infrequent as to not be an issue and I drive almost exclusively on paved roads" meant snow was not an issue.

In any event Nokian makes 3 (2 due in May) tires in that size. For "winter" Nokian SUV. For "Dry and Wet" Nokian NRVi, and "All Weather" Nokian WR. The WR is a GREAT all around tire. Not as performance based as the other choices your looking at but rain and snow amazing while handling very well in dry. According to website, The SUV and WR will be available in MAY '04 but might be worth the phone call to HQ in Tennessee. When I bought my first set of Nokian SUV's a couple years ago, they were "due" into USA in November in my size. I called HQ and they drop shipped them to my house 2 months earlier. Search here at Edmunds in tires (and also snow tires). I've been real happy with the WR's and would highly recommend them as a year round choice. According to the website will be V rated in your size so might be even better in the dry. I can only vouch for the T speed rating as that is what I, family, and friends have. My sister is replacing her WR's on her Intrepid next month. Planning on putting same model back on since her car has been so good in wet and snow for the past couple years. "speed" testing has been reduced due to 3 year old and 18 month old constantly in back seat.

http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/tires_popup.cfm?id=17