Tires, tires, tires

kyfdx

"Once it hit the magic centrifugal mass of rotating 1,834 times at exactly 58 mph, it escaped from the inner tire atmosphere."

drift... that is priceless.. thanks

regards,
kyfdx

driftracer

I learned that fromt the Terry Royce school of vehicles descriptions.

stever

I thought that description had a cream puff ring to it.

More Terry (rroyce10) gems over in Real-World Trade-In Values.

Keep in in deep rubber!

Steve, Host

jeber

of all the flats on cars I've had over the years, probably 80% + were from various types of screws. maybe one or two nails, mostly screws; drywall, machine, big, small...

ryoken

Inspector Driftracer, as much as I enjoyed that description.. I was travelling in excess of 58mph for quite some time before the tire failed.. more like 75. Perhaps I'll just stick with your second, though more boring, explanation. :-P

Wierd things happen to me regarding tires. I had one stolen off my car once. They weren't after the rims, because they only took one, and left me their same-type rim with a flat tire on it lying nearby.

Then a buddy of mine in his blazer didn't run over a screw.. he ran over a screwdriver. The shaft went into the tire and the handle broke off. Just had to be different....

driftracer

I guess my hydramometer crystal ball fusion detector must have been miscalibrated - by my calculations, you were going 58.3 - I'll have to get that in for repair.

Looking in the Yellow Pages for a hydramometer crystal ball fusion detector repair shop....

robr2

1/2 x 4 hex bolt right into the tread on a tire with less than 100 miles on it - GRRRRRR

A black Cross pen in the tread and out the sidewall.

michiganman

Hi All! I have some questions about the tire categories on tirerack.com:

standard touring
grand touring
performance
high performance
ultra high performance

1. I've been told that as you go to higher performance categories, you will get better handling but at the cost of ride comfort. Is this true?

2. Does "handling" means steering response, cornering stability, traction, or all three?

3. How are tires put into these categories?

4. Are the categories distinct, or is there any grey area between them? (i.e. will a High Performance tire always have better handling and worse ride comfort than a Grand Touring tire?).

Thanks alot for your help!

driftracer

what kind of vehicle are you putting the tires on and what do YOU need in a tire?

Analysis paralysis is a bad thing, when you get too much unneeded information.

tidester

Analysis paralysis is a bad thing, when you get too much unneeded information.

Isn't analysis supposed to eliminate the superfluous information so that you can make a reasoned decision? When the analysis leads to a stalemate then you exercise the coin flip option.

tidester, host

mbjb

I have a new 04 expy 4x4 with 265 70R17 and was looking for a new set that is good in snow and rain without losing the comfortable ride, any suggestions. Please help!

driftracer

yes, your analysis of the analysis paralysis, and the positive examination of your hypothesis, proves that analysis paralysis can lead to severe tension headaches - said medical conditions may be avoided by using your recommended coin toss method.

Given that all the information supports your choice to take that chance.

michiganman

Driftracer, I intentionally did not post my vehicle because I wanted people to focus on my more general questions first. I am just wanting a better overall understanding first.

LATER, I will post my ride and what I am looking for in a tire.

Again, any responses and opinions are greatly appreciated!

badgerfan

He's got a 2002 Acura RSX.

Just click on his name, you can find where he's posting!

Sorry Michigan, the jig is up.

ldbricker

shipo

Now that you've laid the gauntlet with deliberately restricted data, the generic answer to your question is that the class of the tire makes little difference in the ride and handling per se. What makes the most difference is the tread width and the height of the sidewall. Any tire of say, 235/45 R-17 (outer diameter of about 25.3") in size in any of your outlined categories will differ less in characteristics between each other than the exact same make and model of tire in the size of 275/30 R-19 (outer diameter of about 25.5").

So, I guess that takes us back to the two questions that driftracer asked earlier; what is the application?

Best Regards,
Shipo

badgerfan

Please read post 3678.

shipo

I was already in the process of writing my post (during which I got several phone calls) when 3678 was posted, I saw it after mine was posted. Timing is everything. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

driftracer

and michiganman, no disrespect, but having dealt with Connor in a business environment, and knowing that he comes to this forum, does his fast-paced job at Tire Rack, and admittedly answers 250-300 e-mails a day, I have to step in for professional courtesy.

I don't think he's here to give a 1,000 word essay on every aspect of every tire made - he's here to answer specific questions on his products.

There's a wealth of information on the Tire Rack site that will answer your very questions, plus thousands of other sites with tire information.

I doubt that anyone intends this topic to be a "I don't know anything about tires, please start from the beginning, and be very thorough" concept.

michiganman

shipo and driftracer, thanks for your responses and definitely no disrespect taken. We are getting to the crux of where I am going with this: shipo says that the class of tire makes little difference in the ride and handling per se. So then what characteristics make a tire one class instead of the other? I am sort of assuming there is *something* that distinguishes the different classes, otherwise what is the purpose of having them?

stickguy

the catagories need to be somewhat broad, since no 2 tire models are exactly alike. Kinda like small/compact/large cars, sometimes you need to draw an almost arbitrary line.

Anyway, IMHO, IN GENERAL, performance class tires will (should?) have better handling but a stiffer ride. TOuring tires will be more ride based, but with better handling than standard, and so on.

But, as already noted, size (and aspect ratio) plays a huge role in things. So does the brand of tires.

shipo

"So then what characteristics make a tire one class instead of the other? I am sort of assuming there is *something* that distinguishes the different classes, otherwise what is the purpose of having them?"

In a general sense, the differentiation in the classes have to do with the speed rating of the tire, the softness/stickiness of the tread compound and the specific carcass/sidewall/bead construction which varies from brand/model to brand/model to give a tire its unique ride/handling/noise characteristics.

In the end, I suspect that if you fully analyzed the process of assigning a specific tire model to one of the higher end performance categories, you would find that there was more that a bit of black art included in said process. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

driftracer

summed it up very well, as did stickguy. In general, an all-season tire or touring tire will ride slightly better, have a longer tread life, and handle the elements better than a summer performance only tire, in the same exact size.

I HATE making generalizations, though, because generalizing leads to misunderstandings.

You can buy about 4 different categories of tires for your car, given your stock size - ask yourself what's more important - ride quality? wet weather handling? high mileage through treadwear? or, like me, do you want sharp, crisp handling, super sticky tires that compromise weather and treadlife for the best "stick" I can get?

If I had a Lexus LS430, I'd look at a different tire and wouldn't race autocross with the car (well, maybe, knowing me), but I don't have that car!

tidester

...because generalizing leads to misunderstandings.

Generally speaking? :-)

tidester, host

capriracer

Speed rating is a good indication which class you are in.

standard touring - T
grand touring - not in my classification system
performance - H
high performance - V although it could be argued that H tires are HP, too.
ultra high performance - V and higher.

And yes, as a general rule if you go higher in speed rating, you lose ride comfort in trade of handling.

And yes, handling generally means all 3 of those things.

Hope this helps.

driftracer

can you be a little more specific?

tidester

I think we've distracted the board enough!

BTW - I'm curious - does anyone know whether underinflated tires affect speedometer readings?

tidester, host

driftracer

An underinflated tire would read as a smaller diameter - even though the difference would be negligible, there would be a difference.

michiganman

stickguy and driftracer: thank you. That's exactly what I was asking about.

tidester

Because the perimeter/circumference would still be the same?

tidester, host

driftracer

an underinflated tire would go down the road as an oval instead of a circle. Just like how the drops in height when you let some air out of the tires.

I don't think there'd be much of a difference, but there'd be a difference.

<engineer mode: BACK ON>

kurtamaxxguy

If I remember tire engineering correctly, aside from the change in tire diameter:

Underinflation causes the tread to bow upward, so only the outer tread contacts the road.

Overinflation bows the tread outward, so only the center of the tread contacts the road.

whoaa

I'm trying to get my front tires off to change my brake pads and they won't budge. I got the lugnuts off ok. It's a 98 eagle talon. Any clues?? Thanks

shipo

In your situation, there is typically only one answer, rust. I knew one guy who would put a 2x4 on the inside of the tire and then hit it with a small 2 lb. mallet. I doubt that did much for the tires, but it always got the wheel separated from the rotor hub.

Best Regards,
Shipo

tidester

Good points - thanks!

tidester, host

sandman46

Have these on my car and love 'em. Anyone have any comments on these tires?
Feel free to respond...good or bad!

The Sandman :-)

kennynmd

I recently replaced my OEM 17's on a Toyota Sequoia to 20's. My first question, does changeing the wheel size mess up the alignment? It seemed like right after they were put on my alignment was off a tad. Second question, when I got these wheels, I requested they be put on Kumho tires. I thought since Kumho only made one 20" tire for a SUV, that was what they were going to put on. However they put Kumho performce passenger tire on. They said its no big deal and they they usually put Good Year Eagle GT II on trucks all the time. Is this true or should I go back and request SUV tires for my truck? Thanks.

capriracer

So what size did they put on?

What size did they take off?

My book says your vehicle came with P265/65R17's. So there is a P metric (pasenger car) tire out there in a 20 that will be the equivalent size.

Now the question is, did they give you a tire with enough load carrying capacity.

kennynmd

You are correct, the OEM was 265/65/17....the size they put on is a Kumho Ecsta Supra 295/40/ZR20.

anon70

I have a 2002 chevy prizm with 50k miles. i'l probably have to replace the tire this year at the rate i drive (30k/year).

anyway, here's what walmart.com shows up for my car at zip 22209 (Northern VA). price does not include the $9.76 installing fee:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/tires_results.gsp?cat=0&com.wm- - - - - - .www.handler.AddressCollector_state=--&com.wm.www.handler.Add- - - - - - ressCollector_zip=27519&dept=91083&make=CHEVROLET&mod- - - - - - el=Prizm+LSi&path=0%3A91083%3A91085&tire_diameter=14&- - - - - - tire_equivalent_load_index=0&tire_load_index=85&tire_load- - - - - - _range=&tire_ratio=65&tire_size=P185%2F65R14+85+S&tir- - - - - - e_spec_selected=&tire_speed_rating=S&tire_type=P&tire- - - - - - _width=185&vehicle_path=true&year=2002

Goodyear Viva Touring $61.24 each/80k miles = $0.0007655/mile
Uniroyal Radial A/S $38.87 = 0.0007774/mile
Goodyear Aquatred 3 $73.94 = 0.00092425/mile
Goodyear Eagle GA $59.62 = 0.001324889/mile
Goodyear Regatta 2 $64.57 = 0.000860933/mile
Goodyear Eagle Ultra Grip GW2 $84.22 = unknown tread warrenty
Goodyear Integrity $49.34 = 0.0009868/mile
Goodyear Viva 2 $50.28 (traction = b, temp= A???) = 0.000838/mile

I think the traction rating on the Viva 2 is mixed up with the temp. I was at walmart this week and on the tire it says traction = a, temp = b.

Note: The original Viva's a few years ago were traction = B. I had them on my '93 Sentra and I skidded in the rain at 30mph into the intersection. Luckily
there were no other cars coming at the time.

Are all of these Traction = A? If so, then the best value = cost/mile? Thus Goodyear Viva Touring?

THX

tirerack

i would recommend replacing them. tires have a shelf life of 6 years before the ozone in the air starts to deteriorate the rubber. When this happens normally you will see small hairline cracks in the side wall and the tread rubber will start hardening. both of the situations can cause problems.

As an economical recommendation i would suggest using the P205/65R15 Kumho Ecsta HP4 716. These are currently priced at 41.00 each plus shipping. They offer a quiet ride with good dry and wet traction and handling

tirerack

The Equipment manufacturer has the correct test equipment but very few shops ever have there equipment looked at until it break down. in most cases an electronic balancer will not loose it's accuracy unless the shaft gets bent or something electronic fails. The real problem is that standard balancing equipment will not tell you if a tire and or wheel is out of round. all it will tell you is if the one side of the wheel is physically the same weight as the are straight across from it. If you are familiar with a camshaft you will understand that you can balance an oval with the correct balancing equipment. the only true way to accurately balance a wheel and tire is to have a "force variation balance". this is a specialized machine that the higher end shops will have. this machine has a drum roller that press's against the tire and wheel to cause deflection in the tire. by doing this you can accurately test and find the heavy spots in the tire and wheel. after doing this the machine will "mark" these spot and the technician can then "match balance" the tire and wheel by aligning the heavy spot with the correct amount of balancing weights. this will also tell you if the tire is out of round or has a slipped belt. for more info on road force variation click on the link i have attached below.

http://209.176.154.132/pub/features/how.cfm

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

tirerack

the individual tire classifications are created specifically to confuse the consumer.......just kidding. the individual classifiation are created by a cross reference of several catagories including the inteded use, type of internal construction, rubber compounds used, amount of void in the tread design, and the list goes on. "Are the categories distinct, or is there any grey area between them" the grey area is about 10 miles wide.

In my opinion the tire manufacturers have overly complicated a simple thing. when i am reviewing tires with a customer i discuss the attributes that he or she is looking for in a tire. i then narrow down the tire classifications to the following:

Passenger all season
Touring summer only
Touring all season
Performance summer only
Performance all season
Winter tires
Competition tire
Truck performance
Truck all season
All terrain
Mud terrain

To answer the other questions, just because you go to a higher classified tire doesn't mean you will get a better tire. every manufacturer builds their tires differently. just because the tire may have a higher speed rating doesn't mean it has a better tread compound or handles any better. in a straight the higher speed rating may be able to attain higher speeds however when you have to take a corner you may lose control because the tread compound wasn't soft enough to keep the vehicle under control. The term "handling" is normally referring to how well a vehicle retains control at higher speeds when you are not going in a straight line (i.e. switching lanes, long interstate curves, interstate on and off ramps).

 connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

tirerack

Cooper Tire & Rubber Company is headquartered in Findlay, Ohio and specializes in the manufacture and marketing of automotive products. Products for Cooper's tire group include automotive, motorcycle and truck tires, inner tubes, tread rubber and equipment. In the automotive group, Cooper is an original equipment supplier of sealing, trim, NVH control systems and fluid handling systems for the automotive industry in North America, Europe, Australia and South America. Cooper has more than 20,000 employees and 52 manufacturing facilities in 13 countries.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

tirerack

"Speed rating is a good indication which class you are in.

standard touring - T
grand touring - not in my classification system
performance - H
high performance - V although it could be argued that H tires are HP, too.
ultra high performance - V and higher.

And yes, as a general rule if you go higher in speed rating, you lose ride comfort in trade of handling."

I have to disagree with you on this one. Speed rating has little to do with what classification the tire is. Just for a few examples:

Dunlop GT Qualifiers = T rating - perfomance all season
Bridgestone turanza LS-T = T rated - touring all season

Continental Extreme contact = W&V rated-performance all season
Bridgestoen Turanza LS-V = V rated- touring all season

Michelin pilot Sport AS = Y&Z rated - performance all season
Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 = Y&Z rated - touring all season

Touring tires are designed for ride quality and comfort at any speed. Performance tires are designed for traction and handling at any speed. Granted there are several performance tires that are quieter than lower end touring tires just as there are several touring tires that can handle higher speeds than other performance tires.

I think driftracer summed it up best with "analyssis paralasys". the manufacturer have disected and cross referenced the tire classisfications so much that the general consumer is at the mercy of a salesmen to be honest with them (which is again why you should call me at the tire rack......) in making sure they get what they need rather than what the installer is trying to push.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

capriracer

By my calculation, they did not give you a tire with enough load carrying capacity.

If I have this right you lost almost 1200 # of capacity, even if you use 35 psi on the 20".

Hope this helps.

tirerack

the speedometer would not be accurate if the tire had low air pressure. even though the tire may still have the same over all diameter, without the correct air pressure you have increased the amount of deflection (the bulge of the tire between the rim and pavement) in the tire which essentially is the same as running a smaller tire on the vehicle. let's say you have a 15" rim with a 215/70/15 tire which has a rolling diameter of 26.9". at the correct inflation the tire will have a 6" side wall at the top but roughly 5" between the rim and the pavement on the bottom due to compression from the wieght of the vehicle. If you lower your air pressure 5-8 psi your side wall on top would still be 6" but you would increase the amount of deflection and lower the distance between the rim and pavement by almost 1" making you true rolling diameter roughly 26" and changing the revolutions per minutes. essentially, the same as using a smaller diameter tire.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

driftracer

That's what I was talking about - thanks, Connor.

Tidester - even though the measured outer circumference is the same, the rolling circumference would be different because the lower pressured tire would deflect more.

tirerack

I only have access to this website while i am at work which is monday through friday from 8 to 6pm. So if you don't see an immidiate response or it is over the weekend more than likely i am not here. but i will try and get you the information you need as soon as i can. i cover four different web forums plus all the daily tire rack emails and customers, but i try and get to every email as fast as i can. some emails (like kyfdx's) take longer than others....... just kidding.

if you do need an answer right away just give me a call, i can answer you question quite a bit faster that way.

 connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

nippononly

maybe I should post my musing over here. I just picked up an Acura RSX that comes standard with the Michelin HX MXM4 tires, V-rated 205/55/16s. I would have expected this tire to be a good sport tire, but instead I find they have little grip (easy to break loose when moving away from a stop), horrible wet traction (perhaps to be expected), quickness to squeal in cornering, and an impossibly loud howl over all but the smoothest pavement (it has to be like glass for them to quiet down).

I am not at the point yet where I am prepared to toss brand new tires, but I may be getting there soon...any recommendations?

I don't mind the hardness of the ride, could stand it to be harder in fact if need be. I am not that worried about wet traction, but would like a tire with higher cornering limits, better dry traction, and definitely less noise. Can it be done? I wasn't really thinking of plus-one sizing, but I suppose that might also be an option for better cornering. Funny thing is, a 2002 Celica I had for a while cornered with less fuss, and it had 195/60/15 H-rated Potenzas...