Tires, tires, tires

yurakm

Have them on my 98 Malibu for almost 4 years / 26k miles. About 6/32" is left. Probably will serve till 36-40k miles. The warranty is for 50k miles, but it would be crazy to drive them down to the legal minimum, 2/32".

Turned to be that Firestone stopped to produce the tires. What a shame...

Great tires, especially for cornering. Wet or dry, does not matter. It is important in CT: The suburban roads and streets are windy and hilly, and it is very usual to drive downhill, than to turn 45 degrees or so, and get into puddle.

The first 2 winters the tires were rather good on snow. Not the last winter. The wet snow gets into the wide groves, and the wheels slip.

There is a couple of new tires with similar pattern branded Bridgestone, though. LH-50, not available on Tirerack, looks almost the same. Potenza RE-009 looks different in the center, but the same as SH30 on edges.

michiganman

Connor, first of all thanks for your detailed responses, they helped a lot! I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions.

I am in a similar situation as nippononly, I have a 2002 base RSX with stock Michelin HX MXM4 tires, V-rated 205/55/16s. He is correct, the tires are somewhat noisy, and have awful wet-weather traction (front wheel hop is common). I am also looking to replace the tires sometime this year, but tire-shopping is somewhat new to me, although I have been reading extensively on Edmunds and Tirerack.

If you look at the Michelin MXM4s on Tirerack, they get AWFUL survey results, but I am conflicted as to whether I should stick with an All-Season Touring tire (e.g. Bridgestone Turanza LS-V) or go to an All-Season Performance tire (like a Potenza 950 for example). I know the question then becomes: what do I want more, handling or comfort? My gut reaction is to say both! But if I had to choose, since the stock Michelins seem to give a very hard ride to me, I suspect that I would probably want the ride comfort of the Turanzas.

Anyways, just watend to say thanks for the response! Regards,

Ken

tidester

Thanks for your comments on the tire inflation/speedometer question. I think your explanation is a step in the right direction but I'm still stuck on the part about changing the effective tire diameter.

At least it gave me this idea: As the rubber meets the road it has to be compressed and then stretched along the direction of travel. An underinflated tire would have more give in that direction so that it would have more "slippage" and behave like a smaller tire.

tidester, host

kennynmd

thanks again, but what does that exactly mean? Is it dangerous to have those tires on my truck? Also, my alignment was off immediately after I put those on. Would the tire size immediatelt affect the alignment or is the tire off balanced? Sorry if I'm asking dumb questions. Thanks again.

driftracer

one thing to consider, as I've done it many times - changing your tires didn't change a thing with your actual alignment settings - your tie rods didn't move, so your toe settings didn't change.

What did change is the width and the aspect ratio (profile) of your tires - as you go with a wider tire and lower aspect ratio, you'll feel the imperfections in the road more clearly, and your tires will "pull" harder than before when catching ruts or wear patterns in the road.

"Dangerous" is a judgement call, but consider that you can't tow or haul anywhere near what you could with your original tires.

tirerack

to be honest the HX MXM4 tires are not very good tires. infact they are a let down from michelin. if you are looking at a performance oriented summer ontly tire i would recommend using the either the Bridgestone Potenza S-03 or the Yokohama ES100. the S-03 is still the best tire but you can get ver similar performance at a lower cost with the ES100. In fact i have the ES100 on my POrsche 944 and i love them. the S-03 are currently priced at 149.00 each and the ES100 are currently priced at 82.00 each. One of the reasons i prefer
the ES100 is because i tend to be an aggressive driver and it is easier to replace an 89.00 tire on a regular basis than it is to replace an 149.00 tire on a regular basis.

If you are looking for a performance all season tire i would recommend continental extreme contact. we have tested these several times and they have continually impressed me with their traction and handling on our test track. they offer great tractionand handling in dry, wet, and even decent snow and ice traction. they are currently priced at 81.00 each.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

paisan

Great tire! I've tracked several cars with this tire and is the tire I buy from Tirerack for resale and suggest to all my customers for a summer performance tire.

For all seasons the Dunlop SP5000s are my choice, used them in 245-45-16 on my SVX through several Albany-Buffalo blizzard trips as well as tracked them at VIR, Limerock and Summit Point raceways. Also like the Pirellia P-zero Nero All-seasons as well. The Continental Extremes unfortunately had 2 of my customers swap ends, so I wasn't as impressed with them.

-mike

tirerack

the correct plus sizes for your Sequoia to 20" would be 265/50/20 or 295/45/20. either will fit without problems. the Kumho Ecsta STX tire are only available in the 295/45/20. i had these on my F150 for one summer and they were unbelievable loud. alos if you live in a winter area they have no snow or ice traction.

unless they are selling you a different size than Toyota recommends i don't even show the Goodyear GT-II for this truck. other wise it is a good tire and i would recommend it for this truck.

As far as throwing your alignment off goes, most likely not. However i would always recommend having a four wheel alignment done when you put new tires on the car. What you are probably feeling is simply a difference in tire size and tread design. When you place a shorter sidewall tire on you vehicle you will notice a stiffer ride and get more road feel. this is because you have decreased the amount of flex in your tire so your tire has less abilioty to absorb to inconsistency and trasmits more of the inconsistencies into the ride quality. the fact that your vehicle pulls to one side or the other while you are driving is called "tremmeling or tramlining" depending on you you are talkign to. This is only found in directional and some asymentrical tires. this si what happens when the tires drive over expansion joints or other high spots in the road. because the tread has different angle on each side of it will pull tend to pull in one or the other direction as you go over these high spots.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

leadfoot4

I have a problem buying tires. Due to a lot of construction, and lack of enforcement regarding load restraint of trucks, the roads in my area are pretty well littered with debris. Sadly, I've cut up 3 fairly new tires in the last 4-5 years due to road debris.

Because of this, I hesitate to buy tires that are really expensive, or tires that are "close-outs", in case I need to replace an odd one or two before all 4 are worn out. That's the set up, here comes the situation I'm looking for opinions on.

My wife's car needed a new set of tires. The car is a sport-luxury sedan, does not see the road in the winter. It came with 180 treadwear, Z speed rated tries. They didn't last all that long, and I happened to be looking at the website of a major mail-order tire retailer, a business that I've worked with for many years. They had a particular tire "on sale" that I'd heard good things about.

Even though the car was stored for the winter, I thought that the sale wasn't something to pass up, so I called the retailer's order line. One question I asked the sales rep was if the tires were discontinued, therefore "on sale". He told me, "No". Based on that, I orderd the tires and put them in my basement.

Three weeks ago, I installed the new tires. They perform very well. I was telling one of my colleagues about them, because he was in the market for tires. We went to the manufacturer's website, to check sizes for his car, and found that the tires were indeed discontinued.

I think that I was sort of misled. Any opinions? (please, be polite)

pathstar1

Tidester, take a tape measure out to a vehicle and a tire pump or do it at a service station. Measure from the centre of the wheel to the ground with proper inflation. Deflate the tire say 10 lbs and measure again. You will find the centre of the wheel will drop towards the ground. What you have done is reduced the rolling diameter (you're measuring the radius of course), so the wheel will turn more times per mile. Be sure to reinflate the tire! This is why inflation pressure can effect the speedo and odo. Usually you have to go way past recommended pressures to have a noticeable effect.

In my younger days, I had a Land Cruiser FJ40 and put "Truetrack" tires on it. They were huge (the point), and they were often called "balloon tires" because when inflated to higher pressures both the width and diameter increased, and the tread usually had a round profile on the road. Ignoring what effects they had on handling for now, I had to use a giant caliper (surplus tree caliper) to ensure I kept all four wheels at the same radius as 4WD with different radii is not a good idea (to say the least!).

On a humorous note, one morning I went out to my garage to use my Land Cruiser, and found it leaning way over to one side, almost touching the garage wall. Picked up a welding rod in one tire the day before. It was interesting trying to get it out of the garage without hitting the walls! There was no room to get in there and put some air in.

kennynmd

I love this forum. If I got questions, I will always get an answer.
As far as tires, when I requested Kumho's, I assumed that I was going to get the STX's because that's the only tire that Kumho makes for trucks in 20's.
As far as towing or hauling, I don't do any of that. I'm in the proces of trying to get new tires for the truck now. Thanks again.

yurakm

Will need to replace brake pads soon. Tirerack site recommends improved pads for my car (98 Malibu): EBC Greenstuff and Hawk HPS Street. According to the site, EBC Greenstuff "Upgrade brake performance by up to 30% over OE pads, friction coefficient of 0.46µ".

Does it means the car will stop at 30% shorter distance?

Second question: do the pads require new, improved rotors?

paisan

Believe it or not the tire pressure will NOT effect the rolling circumference by a significant amount. However wear will effect it.

-mike

paisan

I've used both. If you want to keep your rotors in good shape, buy the Hawks. The EBCs are known to wear your rotors down quickly. I use Hawk HP+ on my cars that are tracked/auto-xed regularly and at our shop we suggest HPS as a great street pad, so far no complaints from our WRX and other subaru customers on those.

-mike

kyfdx

Squash a circle down into an oval, and the diameter measurement north/south will be smaller, but the circumference remains the same. Because it isn't a circle anymore.

regards,
kyfdx

imidazol97

Low air pressure increased the squirming of the tread initially. This reduces the distance that the belt which is the circumference of the tire travels as it is placed on the ground and then pickup at the back of the tire.

It's this same principle on which the Buick low tire pressure sensor works. When the tire is rotating slight faster than it had been relative to other tires in the sest, the tire is perceived as having lost pressure and the indicator light turns on.

I know it works. My wife picked up a nail on the way to lunch last summer and the alarm went off for low tire pressure. I checked it when the car was home and couldn't tell the rear tire was low, but the computer had detected a faster rotation rate for that wheel. When I checked the pressure it was down 6 pounds.

tidester

This reduces the distance that the belt which is the circumference of the tire travels as it is placed on the ground and then pickup at the back of the tire.

That was essentially my conjecture. Does your owner's manual tell you how much variation in rotation rate you need from one tire to the next to trigger the alarm? I think Paisan is right in saying that it would be very slight!

tidester, host

kyfdx

If I coast across a two-foot patch of new pavement, the light for the DSC on my wife's BMW starts flashing. And that is going straight ahead. I agree that a low-pressure tire may have slightly fewer revolutions per mile, but I don't think its anywhere near what the difference in diameter would indicate.

regards,
kyfdx

kennynmd

I talked to a representative from Kumho today. He said that they don't recommend 100% to put the Kumho Supra on my truck. However,he also said before they started making 20" SUV tires, they did use the Kumho Supra for full size SUV's. So I guess it is OK since I don't tow anything.I just have to keep up with the tire pressure.

paisan

Gotta get your 20" bling on!

-mike

yurakm

Thank you!

imidazol97

kyfdx: What's DSC mean?
The slightly low tire would have more rotations per mile.
 
tidester: The belt which is the tread rubber would seem to have a fixed length (circumference)that would act like a caterpillar track with a fixed distance traveled per one 'trip' around. But the distance is reduced slightly by the scrubbing effect as the tire meets the road. Lower tire pressure increased the squirming and reduced distance traveled (I would intuit) in a nonlinear relationship -- probably exponentially.

The pressure sensor on my H-body GM (LeSabre/SLS/Bonneville) tripped when the tire was down about 6 pounds on the rear. There's little weight on the rear so that was pretty sensitive; if it had been front the greater weight would have triggered a warning sooner. The system is supposed to be sensitive enough you may have to reset the base rates when tires are rotated on the car according to the manual.

A friend's Pacifica has pressure detectors that are a pain. His dealer said to keep the pressure between 35 and 38 pounds so as not to trip the detector and the bells and voice warning that continue while you're driving!!!

kyfdx

DSC = Dynamic Stability Control.

It works off similar sensors to the ABS system, but more sophisticated. I agree with everything you said, especially the part about the difference being 'slight'. I think most of the difference comes from the scrubbing effect you describe. You certainly couldn't measure a low pressure tire from the ground to the top of the tire and extrapolate the revs per mile from that diameter reading.

regards,
kyfdx

paisan

The manufacturer suggests no more than 1/4" circumference difference between all the tires on the vehicle to keep the AWD system working properly, that's why rotations on most cars these days should be done every 5K miles.

-mike

kenm8

Another factor in tire diameter/circumference is temperature of air, pavement and cold tires. Odometers will show less distance traveled as temperature of tire/air/pavement increases. This delta, however, is not discernable on standard car odometers. I was involved in an activity in the past that required precise measurement of miles traveled in a car. We used an auxiliary special odometer for the measurement.

Before the start of the activity, we always took into account fact that a car needed to be driven at least 10 miles to get tires to operating temperature. We also factored into account that a point “A to B” distance on a road/route would measure differently at 8 AM at 50 degrees F than at 4 PM at 85 degrees F using the same car.

tirerack

Personally i would recommend using the Hawk HPS pads. the EBC tend to be noisy and put off quite a bit of brake dust. The Hawk HPS pads break in faster, are quieter, and less break dust. we actually are testing these both of these pads this week as well as the Satisfied GS6 on our test track. to tell you the truth i would rate them as the the Hawk HPS, Satisfied GS, and the EBC Green Stuff third. Stopping distance will be normally less than the factory pad however the amount of differences can vary depending on the vehicle, the conditions you are driving under.

I would recommend using the Power slot rotors. Power slot purchases there rotors from Brembo and then mills the gas slots in the face of the rotor at their own facility. after this is done the rotors are cad spec coated to eliminate rust on exposed surfaces. these rotors also have the curves inner vent splines rather than the straight usless splines that the OEM rotors have. The curved splines draws air in like an impeller helping to assist the pads rotor and caliper rather than just letting air circulate on its own like the straight splines do.

paisan

I'm gonna have to disagree, unless you regularly track your car doing HPDEs, you probably will get no gains by purchasing slotted rotors. If you like the bling factor of the slots then go for them as well, but for normal, sane, street driving you will not see any increased effect of the slots over std. brembo blank rotors.

-mike

ksccts

Interested in advantages vs disadvantages of buying private label vs brand name tires. thanks!

tirerack

the BMW 330CI Sport Coupes that we use for testing use the same indirect tire pressure monitoring system that GM uses. it read off of a sensor ring on the spindle. some vehilce use the same sensor ring as the ABS sensor ring.

The tire pressure alarm will go off when a 3psi diffrence is detected on the vehicle. so they are very sensitive and will normally go off with minimal differences.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

tirerack

you are correct in the fact air temperature effects tires size. But unless you going from one temperature extreme to another it would be minimal. a tire will either decrease or increase 1psi in air pressure for ever 10 degree's of of increased or decreased abient air temperature.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

yurakm

Thank you!

tidester

But the distance is reduced slightly by the scrubbing effect as the tire meets the road.

That makes sense to me! Thanks.

tidester, host

kenm8

Connor: Thanks for reply.

Air/tire temperature "was"/"is" a significant factor in the activity (TSD Rallye) and had to be accounted for in planning, executing and running these events. As an example, event organizers would measure the route as close as possible to the day of the event and would do so at the exact same time of the event. Some organizers also included data about weather and temperature conditions for various parts of the event from start to finish. If not done carefully such as this, difficulties would arise in timing/scoring errors or mileage turn problems.

tirerack

Keep in mind that an air pressure monitoring system isn't necesarily measuring the air pressure (or tire RPM's with the indirect system) in the tire. it is measuring the differences between the four tires. most TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) will not activate unless they see either a pressure difference ro a tire RPM in at least one tire. Just to give you an example: Say a box of nails has spilled out over the road and punctured all four tires and they lose air evenly the TPMS alarm may not go off because the air pressure or tire RPM would still be reading the same between the 4 tires. However, every TPMS system whether direct or indirect has either a minimum air pressure or a minimum RPM setting. until you reached the minimum air pressure (normally between 18 and 23 psi or a preset minimum RPM level the alarm will not sound.

for more information on TPMS systems click on the link i have attached below:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/tirepresfinal/tireprm- - onsys.html

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

ldbricker

when one of the tire companies did a commercial with their tires on a vehicle that was coasted down an incline and allowed to roll vs. their big competitor's tire? They showed that with their tire the vehicle coasted further. I don't remember who the players were or what vehicle they used now, but I do remember seeing it on tv and thinking it was a cool ad.

kyfdx

usually are poorer handling.. Honda has used tires like that in the past for their higher MPG models like the Civic HX and Insight. Not something you would want on most cars, I don't think.

regards,
kyfdx

ldbricker

but at the time thought it was a cool ad. Just trying to remember the details now. What I want is a tire to replace the 205/50-16 on my RalliArt. I'd like to go to a 225/45-16 but don't know if it will clear. I'm trying to figure out a way to take my car up to Connor and let them use it as a fitment test vehicle but it's pretty far from Houston.

tidester

They showed that with their tire the vehicle coasted further.

I don't recall seeing that commercial. Did they show you how fast the tires rolled? The speed depends on how the mass of the tire + wheel is distributed and would likely play a greater role in how far they travel than friction.

tidester, host

ldbricker

up on this incline and then it rolling down and coasting. Then it showed the same thing with the competitor tire and it stopped shorter. It was probably about 35 years ago that they ran the ads. I'm sure a lot of people aren't old enough to remember them.

jft26

Sears sells a Michelin Agility Touring Radial that was recommended for my minivan. Does anyone have any experiences with this tire? Thanks.

kyfdx

Rather than go with a bigger size, put your money into buying the top performing tire you can get in your stock size. I think that is the best way to improve handling performance in a tire. Especially if you have OEM tires. The difference can be amazing.

regards,
kyfdx

tirerack

the best time to be at the tire rack would be this friday. the "One Lap Of America" road race is rolling through here and i am willing to bet you will see a few 2004 lancer models. i believe last year there were 8 in all.

it is an amazing car show plus you really get to see these cars put through there paces on the track.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

paisan

I'll go ahead and agree on this. Better quality tires will out perform a wider tire any day. Look at the Dunlop SP5000s/Sport A2s, Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S both excellent tires.

-mike

tirerack

private label tires are design to meet the specifications provided by the retailer that will be selling them. Brand name times are designed and built to meet the needs of a specific market or the direct needs of an automotive manufacturer. roughly 60% of brand name tires are designed to be used as OEM tires in the new vehicle market.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

tirerack

The Michelin Agility is a standard passenger all season tire meant for minivans and smaller SUV's. because the tire rack doesn't carry this tire, that's really all i know about it.

connor@tirerack.com
Tire & Wheel Specialist
The Tire Rack
877-522-8473 ext 269

ldbricker

a given size is the way to go however wouldn't "the best" 225/45-16 theoretically outperform "the best" 205/50-16? The Nero is one tire I've considered. I also like what I see of the Continental Extreme. I'll run the RS-A's for a while because I can't get away with swapping them out too soon.

paisan

Depends on the driving conditions. For instance if you are driving in a lot of standing water or snow or wanted gas milage, I'd take the "best" 205-50-16 over 225-45-16 any day of the week.

-mike

kyfdx

But, they usually aren't. On most small, performance oriented cars, there isn't a lot of extra room.. The engineers are pretty good at putting the maximum amount of rubber that will fit, and tuning the car to run with that size rim and tire. They can make even a crappy car run a high skidpad number (the Renault Alliance GTA comes to mind).

Of course, there are exceptions of which I will be reminded of shortly.

regards,
kyfdx

ldbricker

those related to daily commute in Houston, Texas. We have moderately good roads with some potholes and some rough surfaces. We have average rainfall with a few really heavy storms a year. We have 99.97% snow/ice free conditions. I average about 40 miles per day. About half is 50+ mph and about half is in town driving. On a 1-10 scale with 1 being an occupied hearse and 10 being look at me I think I'm A.J. Foyt (a Houstonian I hope to meet some day but that's a different thread) I probably drive around the 5-6 level. There is a cloverleaf I like to have fun on though and push the 9+ level cornering on it. And like everyone else I want the world's best tire for about 12 bucks each... ok, I want a great tire at a reasonable price. I'm willing to look at number 2 or maybe number 3 if they are priced well below number 1.

paisan

For your needs, go with stock size and mid-level tire, that's my suggestion.

-mike