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Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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    kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
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    barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    I just got up from my computer, slipped, and hit my head on the edge of the monitor. It was an accident but maybe reading the posts of several frequent visitors on this thread had a subliminal affect?!?

    Smartin' in Seattle,
    Stephen
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    hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Aiteixeira:
    Studied before you talk please> "I'm sure Hyundai has more than Subaru - they are much bigger"

    Here are the actually number of each manufacture layout in US.

    Subaru Dealerships:
    Spanning the continental U.S., Subaru is represented by nearly ****600**** franchised dealerships.

    Hyundai Dealerships:
    Hyundai cars and light trucks are distributed throughout the United States by Hyundai Motor America and are sold and serviced by ****500**** Hyundai dealerships nationwide.

    **Can you imagine 100 dealerships 'different' can make the sale number in big different?**

    I don't want to use Mazda in here because they are even bigger plus also they using the some of the Ford dealers to sell car too.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What does nearly 600 mean? You don't list a source and both numbers are rounded off.

    Here are total sales for the first 4 months of 2001:

    Hyundai: 100,906
    Subaru: 55,177

    (source: Automotive News)

    So yes, I was right about Hyundai being bigger. Now if we had an accurate number of dealers instead of a vague range, we could figure out sales per dealer.

    -juice

    PS Even using your numbers, Subaru sold 28.9 Foresters per dealership, while Hyundai sold 28.6 Santa Fes.
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    bajabillbajabill Member Posts: 60
    What is the importance of the number of dealerships. Do you think the number of dealerships is related to the number of sales or something? I would say that if the manufacturer does not have adequate coverage of the country, their sales will be impacted. Once "adequate" is achieved, additional dealerships will have minimal impact because the limiting factor will be the market. All the dodge dealers in the world and how many vipers do they sell, they sell what the market will bear, not what the dealership infrastructure is capable of supplying.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bill: actually, yes. The number of outlets is at least one of the main factors in sales.

    If there is only 1 dealer in a certain market, prices will be higher due to the lack of competition, for example.

    The sales-per-dealer measure is used by the industry to measure the success of particular models. So a slower selling Jaguar could still be considered more successful than a Ford with higher unit sales.

    For example, the S class is considered a success because it doubled Jaguar sales, while the Contour was a failure and got cancelled, despite having many more sold.

    -juice
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    bajabillbajabill Member Posts: 60
    I see strict dealer control and minimal compete policies in the boat industry (hence huge markups). Call a far away dealer and divulge your location and they will immediately refer you to the closer dealer, for the most part and I know there are exceptions.

    What I am struggling with is the competition between manufacturers and trying not to neglect this impact on price and sales numbers. If the manufacturer wanted the dealer, who has too large an area, to increase sales, encourage them to order more cars. Now if they can sell them then the market supported it. got to go
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm checking around and found that Subaru has 588 dealers (source: Subaru.com).

    Hyundaiusa.com only says it has "more than 500 Hyundai dealerships". Pretty vague, so I'll check Autoweek when I get home.

    So Forester leads the Santa Fe in sales for the latest month reported, sales so far this year, and sales per dealer.

    -juice
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    big_guybig_guy Member Posts: 372
    The number of dealerships in a particular area varies with region. I would imagine that there are a select few Subaru dealerships in the sun-belt where-as there should be a marked increase the farther north you go. Hyundai, on the other hand, does not seem to be so geographically dependent. Just an observation.
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    rsharp83rsharp83 Member Posts: 82
    Look for a slowdown in production of the triscape starting in June. I spoke to one of the line workers at the Clacomo MO plant last week. She said that they will only have to work overtime on this line until June. At that point some other union rules apply to where they will not be required to put in the overtime that they have been on the triscape line. She said they were producing around 1,100 per day (I think). So shortages may be coming.
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    guyfguyf Member Posts: 456
    Agree with you Juice, this drivetrain would be a nice improvement in the SF.
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    hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    So Forester leads the Santa Fe in sales for the latest month reported, sales so far this year, and sales per dealer.
    ***Don't Regret when you said this those?***
    Find out about the number of dealers first before you calculated. I'll just keep in file and let you do the work...

    ***Wait! Until you see the list of people are waiting for their Santa Fe. You will be amaze about how many of them are on the waiting list. According to our Santa Fe forum there are lots of people posted and saying that they are willing to wait for the 2002 model as well! I am not surprised if the number of waiting is more than buying***

    How could Hyundai more bigger than Subaru since Subaru have more dealers?
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    pattim3pattim3 Member Posts: 533
    I think that the AIDA (Automotive Import Dealer's Association) ranks their Subaru franchises very highly. Some manufacturers have very strict guidelines or policy requirements that support dealers that are doing a good job. AIDA likes manufacturers that support their business and provide a product that is reliable. Some other manufacturers do not make it an issue.

    I think this may have an impact on the number of dealers you find. But it is just an opinion.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Depends on what you are measuring. Given the nearly 2 to 1 sales, I maintain Hyundai is far bigger.

    -juice
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    kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    ***Don't Regret when you said this those?***
    Yeah, don't! and how dare you to post relevant data from a respectable source like Automotive News? Instead, look at the waiting lists for Santa Fe! How long is the waiting list for Forester 2003? Only two people, you and me, right? And for Santa Fe? Thousands of Hung's friends! Now convinced? Wait! I'll find more facts after I had my coffee!
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    tonychrystonychrys Member Posts: 1,310
    it's not factual unless you post a picture off the Internet. "You must be talking rocks."
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    curreycurrey Member Posts: 144
    I knew I forgot something this morning, no wonder my eyes keep shutting.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I am in other chats around the net and have workers there also. None have mentioned this?? If anything Ford may be changing its ways and instead of flooding the market maybe they are pulling back a bit to adjust to market conditions. After all the Jeep Liberty, Suzuki XL7 are here, and soon the Saturn VUE will enter this market. Competition, got to love it!!
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    tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Every year the domestics start slowing down in July, some plants shut down. This is to get ready for model year changeover.
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    hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Here are the biggest reason why people are waiting for the coming Santa Fe available in United States.
    1. DMS (Digital Multimeter System)
    2. A/T Climate Control
    3. Manufacture Sun/Moonroof
    4. Possible Side Airbags
    5. Possible LSD
    6. Possible Navigation System
    7. Possible Multimedia System
    Interior Options

    If you check our Santa Fe Forum then you will understand why people are will to wait. """I don't want to mentioned about the list in the dealer right now""""
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    tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    What if those options never become available? Subaru has all that and more on their Japanese vehicles, but there is no plan to bring them to the U.S. I would imagine the price increase those would add to the Santa Fe would put it close to top end of the small SUV class. Remember there is no free lunch, everything that is added will increase the cost of the vehicle. Will Hyundai be able to sell a $30,000 Santa Fe in sufficient volume to justify importing it?
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    hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    DMS =$350
    A/T AC = $400
    Sunroof = $1200
    side airbags = $400-600
    ***You calculated the price of the Santa Fe now? Depend on some mark-up too but still, people want it because they are available on the Santa Fe***
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    tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Where did you get those prices? Pricing in one market may not carry over to another. Other factors in adding options involve whether demand for the vehicles with that equipt. will justify stocking the additional service parts. Hyundai USA is a operated as a separate company and has to bear all the related costs of increasing content of vehicles they distribute.
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    hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    Tincup47:
    I already bought the DMS and the A/T AC. The price I have listed was the price I paid at retail price too. I am not alone because Pvalery in our Santa Fe Forum also have it too. We bought it at HDKautosport.com. The product is already in United States.

    My DMS & A/T AC
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    curreycurrey Member Posts: 144
    But what you paid for them and what a dealer would charge for them already installed on a Santa Fe are two totally different things. In fact, from the looks of your picture, you are finding it difficult to install the A/T AC as the wires are different (and it looks like it is a different size then the piece you removed). I guess the question is wether or not the North American Santa Fe is truly compatible (that is, pre wired) for installing the A/T AC from Korea.
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    guyf1guyf1 Member Posts: 50
    That digital multimeter reminds me of the "Inclinometer" that was sitting on the dash of my 1983 Toyota Corolla 4WD SR5 station. What a useless toy...

    So HDK is selling stuff that nobody can install and make to work on their SF. Does not sound like a good deal to me...

    The only thing I really miss on the SF is an outside temp. thermometer. Would be great in lieu of the useless clock up there. (There is a clock built in the Canadian version CD player.)

    I can understand some people like sunroofs altough I dont care much for them and side airbags would definitively be an improvement. All the rest we can do without.

    Guy
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    speterson1speterson1 Member Posts: 228
    The Forester has an outside temp. thermometer. I love it, but my wife always makes fun of me whenever I use it... :)
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    hung0820hung0820 Member Posts: 426
    The products will be ready to install soon. The technical people in Korea stopped this project and promise to continue in the summer because they are working with something more important; the Sunroof wire that work with a keyless entry alarm. Whenever you arm the car the sunroof will close it -if you forget to close the sunroof-. Then they start on working with the outside mirror to fold when you take the key out of the ignition. Yes! Both of these items have been successful and the sunroof wire is selling at HDK right now. The mirror fold will be available by next year (they want to keep it for next year). **In the summer we are expected to have the wire harness and the cover for the A/T climate control. They said that the DMS is very easy to do. I am excite to have it work in the Santa Fe and then I will posted in instruction and detail to install for everyone to upgrade as well. Expected between June 23-September2 to have it done.
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    supra_ttsupra_tt Member Posts: 1
    Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape is also the Land Rover Freelander!
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    bshapbshap Member Posts: 23
    uh....no, the Tribute/Escape is not the same as the Freelander. both have unibody construction, but thats where the similarities end. id be curious as to where you found that out.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Triscape and Freelander share only the corporate Ford label. Maybe(?), down the road, when these vehicles are due for a redesign, maybe then they'll share some components.

    Bob
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    odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    except the LR has a different Rear to allow for the tire to be mounted on the outside, and it will only have a 2.5 V6 DOHC w/ 175 hp engine. Goto Http://www.landrover.com and click on the United States to go into the US division. I also asked the local LR dealer on Sat after seeing an add about the Freelander. He said yes they are identical but for small differences.


    Odie

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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'd stay away from that LR dealer. He obviously doesn't know much about the Freelander. The Freelander is a completely different vehicle from the Escape and Tribute.

    The Freelander was developed by Land Rover and BMW. It's been on sale in Europe and other markets for a couple of years now. The USA will get a revised version of that vehicle with the 2.5L V6. On the other hand, the Escape and Tribute were designed and engineered by Mazda (mostly) and Ford.

    Land Rover has only been part of the Ford family for around a year or so. So, to date, Ford has had little impact on the engineering/design of the Freelander.

    Bob
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    odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    When I had asked, He had said "The Freelander had already been selling well in Europe, and it was a major influence on the design of the Escape/Tribute."

    I'm still getting an Escape, I just wish it had the Full Size spare on the Rear like the Freelander.

    Odie
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    tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Any influence the Freelander had on the Escape would be due to the fact it has been the best selling SUV in Europe. The Freelander has been on sale in Europe and the rest of the world since 1997. They share no parts and have totally different suspensions and AWD setups. I don't know what LR dealer would say anything like that unless it was a shared facility and the salesperson was unfamiliar with our products.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    DMS? I think that's my little brother's favorite rap artist! ;-)

    His favorite songs applies well here: "Y'all gonna make me lose my mind!"

    Hmm, what if you want to leave the sunroof open on a hot day, to let the interior vent a bit. That would be annoying for it to keep closing it for you.

    I think the Freelander uses Rover mechanicals, no? The Tribute/Escape use the 626 platform with a Ford engine and tranny. The Freelander 2.5l is not even the same as the 2.5l Ford engine used in the Contour and MPV.

    -juice
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    jmlagascajmlagasca Member Posts: 37
    You have to admit that Ford took some styling cues from the Freelander and put them into the Escape or Maverick (as it's known in Europe). The Freelander is the most popular SUV in Europe at this time and is priced somewhat competitively with the Maverick/Escape overseas (it would probably be more comparable in price to the Highlander). Even though Ford now partly owns Land Rover, they were looking to cash in on some of the success that the Freelander is enjoying overseas by bringing over some of the styling cues. People here have been begging Land Rover to bring the Freelander over from Europe since 1997.

    The two vehicles are totally separate though. Freelander was designed by Land Rover and BMW in 1997 (when BMW still owned Land Rover) and it's actually a true off roader or at least a lot more capable than the Escape. It comes in a 2-door and 4-door configuration as well. It uses a diesel engine in Europe and a 5-speed automatic tranny. When it's released here in the states it's expected to compete with the Liberty and the Xterra and will actually be priced in the high 20s and low 30s.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It borrowed a little here, a little there, I guess. A lot of two-box SUVs look pretty much the same.

    You could say it looks more like the old Explorer, which is by far a bigger sales success. CR-V owners say it looks like their Honda (which in turn looks like an Explorer, to me).

    Actually, the Freelander has that rounded off hood thing going, which is kind of unique. The Escape looks more generic. I actually prefer the styling on the Tribute - handsome if conservative.

    -juice
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    jmlagascajmlagasca Member Posts: 37
    Yes. Toyota seems to be implementing that rounded roof on their new SUVs, it only looks good on the RAV4 though. I've seen a couple Highlanders on the road and the styling doesn't attract me at all, in fact (I can't believe I'm saying this) but the Santa Fe looks better, that's JMHO.


    Talk about the CRV. Take a look at the 2002 model sketches, it doesn't look that much different than it does now. Here's the link...


    http://www.vtec.net/news/items/697.html (photos)

    http://www.vtec.net/news/items/681.html (info)


    Not too strong IMO, and they say they're increasing power to a 2.4 liter engine to levy off the increased weight so it can actually compete with the "larger" SUVs such as - get this - the Lexus RX300 (I know I'm regurgitating what the news article says, but come on Honda, be realistic and put a v6 in the damn thing!)...

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    sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    flapping mirrors and sunroof?

    is it going to fly down the road?

    also, the outside thermometer is useful so you can see if the temps are below freezing or not to see how slippery the roads are.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The CR-V was a big success in the market, so if Honda can offer less and make more profit from it, more power to 'em. It led the class in sales until the Escape took over, but it's still 2nd despite its age.

    The article also says it'll compete with the Kluger V (Highlander), but remember a 4-banger is the base engine in that vehicle.

    Honda may bring over the smaller HR-V and move the CR-V up in price. I agree a V6 would be best, but look how long it took the Accord to get one. Also, ironically, when the Accord finally got the V6, it actually lost the sales crown.

    So it may be a case of bean-counters that veto the engineers.

    -juice
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    sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Honda is known for their I4 engines, not V6.

    If anything, other than an I4, I'd like to see a diesel engine or even a turbo diesel.

    To keep this on topic, what is the largest displacement 4 banger of this lot (subject group)? How about the biggest 4 banger of ALL SUV's? Of all current autos? Past autos?

    I believe Porsche made a 3.0 4 cylinder in the 944, but not postive. I know Nissan has the 2.4 and there are some 2.5's out there. Did the Quad 4 die completely? That might be a good match somewhere, despite it's high revving aspirations (pun not intended). How is Saturn's current stable of motors? Are they their own, or generic GM?
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    tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    One of the largest 4 cyl auto engines was in the 1902 Ford 999 Racer. It had a capacity of 18.8 Liters, which is about 1150 Cu in.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt Honda would market a diesel here.

    I think the biggest current 4-banger in an SUV is the Forester's 2.5l boxer engine. Yeah, that Porsche had a monster 4 banger.

    I think the Quad 4 still exists, but they don't use that name any more. Most owners just get the smoother V6s in those cars.

    Saturn uses their own 1.9l engines in the SL and SC, but GM of Europe (read: Opel) engines in their LS line. The big V6 is from the Opel Omega, even though the underlying chassis is based on the Opel Vectra.

    Interesting trivia tid bit - that same block powers Saabs and the Cadillac Catera.

    Not sure what the Vue will use, but probably the same engines in the LS.

    -juice
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    guyf1guyf1 Member Posts: 50
    The new Nissan Altima, due out this fall, will have a 2.8L 4 cylinder engine in the base model.

    Agree (again) with Juice, the CR-V is overpriced but they are still selling like hotcakes. What would you do if you were Honda??

    Guy
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    big_guybig_guy Member Posts: 372
    If I remember correctly, once you get up over around 2.5 liters in a 4 banger, you start to run into some significant vibration problems and need to put in counter weights to offset this vibration. I think I remember reading that the 2.4L I4 engine in the Highlander uses counter balancing weights to dampen the vibration. The boxer engine in the Subaru cancels this vibration problem because of the layout of the engine. I think auto manufacturers are staying away from making 4 bangers with a lot of displacement because they don't want to run into the additional problems of having to engineer a balance system to counter the vibrations and consumers don't want to pay for the associated increase in cost for this additional hardware. Just my $.02
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Guy: I thought the Altima was getting a 2.4l engine with 180hp as the base engine. A 3.5l V6 will be optional.

    Mitsubishi has a patent on balance shafts, and many automakers actually pay them a fee to use the design. I believe Mitsu trucks had really big 4 bangers at one point.

    Subaru's boxer layour has a natural second order balance and does not need them.

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's really not a problem with Subaru and their boxer engines. They're perfectly balanced from the get-go. Inline engines, yes, vibration is an issue with large displacement 4 cylinders.

    Bob
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    sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    Honda used to use a V4 in motorcycles (Interceptor). I wonder why that never caught on. I would think that would give the best of many worlds: proper layout (longitudinal), compact, torquey, smooth, efficient, etc.
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